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#94537 - 04/16/08 12:39 PM Backcountry camping?
ShadowAngel Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 14
This is a pretty newbie-ish question, but here goes! My fiance and I are pretty new to the whole backpacking thing, but we've decided to take our first multi-day trip next month. Should be a 3 day, 2 night hike. We've done some day hikes and car camping, but never an extended backpacking trip, so I'm pretty new to certain aspects of it. We already have all the gear and everything, and should be in good shape as far as that goes.

My question is.. How exactly does one go about backcountry camping? I'll elaborate. I called the ranger to discuss the trail i'm looking at, and he said it's moderate difficulty, and has a couple of "primitive camping" spots that cost something like $8 a night, but he said that backcountry camping was free. If I understand that right, can I basically just set up my tent anywhere I want along the trail that would work well and is far enough from the path to not be an eyesore?

Being my first time out, i'd really rather not get on the wrong side of other hikers or a ranger by commiting some backpacker's faux pas. Any tips?

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#94538 - 04/16/08 12:54 PM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
Here around Seattle we usually pay for it by getting parking passes for the trailheads. You pretty much have it right; you can just hike off the trail a bit and pitch a tent. I think it's best to be out of sight of the trail, and in case it gets foggy I like to take a compass reading so I know which way the trail is in the morning.

I knew a mountaineer who liked to hike a few days away from the nearest trail so she could get away from it all, but to do that you need to be comfortable using a map & compass.

Other than that, pack out what you pack in, don't feed the animals, try not to disturb the vegetation too much, and follow any regulations about food storage and fire use. Good luck. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#94539 - 04/16/08 01:27 PM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Call the ranger back, and ask him/her the rules for backcountry camping at your locality. Around here, it can mean anything from using designated sites (semi-developed with an outhouse and/or water source, to undeveloped; with or without a fee) to "anywhere you can find a flat spot." If it's the latter, there are usually local rules that require you to be a certain distance from the trail, stream, parking lot, or campground. There can be other local peculiarities, too. ("Don't camp in Primrose Valley from March to June; that's when the Endangered Raptors are mating and nesting, and we don't want them disturbed." "Don't camp by Rip Roaring Creek if rain is forecast - it floods too easily, and we don't need another 6-campers-dead incident this year.")

Another consideration is impact. The general rule would be that dispersal is better - use the un-obvious site to minimize impact. However, in the heavily used areas in the eastern US, the backcountry managers may tell you to use the impacted sites instead. You can't impact them any more than they already are, and continuing to use established sites spares areas that haven't been beaten up yet. Around here, if I don't want to use the established site, I'll usually look for a durable surface, such as rock (bare sandstone slab, for example) and rely on my Thermarest for comfort instead of forest duff.

Along those same lines, plan to use a stove rather than build a fire. Fires nearly always leave a trace: charred wood that's visible even when scattered, blackened rocks from a fire ring, etc. Beyond lowering impact, stoves are also less hassle than fires: there's no firewood to gather, no blackened hands or pots, no facefuls of smoke, and no hauling water to make sure it's dead out before you leave. (Having to haul water for a fire also pretty much ties you to camping very close to a stream, which limits your possible campsites - another bummer.)

Oh, and if you do commit a faux pax - own up to it, apologize, offer to correct the matter (even if it involves packing up at dusk and hiking another mile), and explain that it's your first real backpacking trip. Then ask for any tips they might have. Rangers sometimes have a policy that forgives first-timers who are willing to be educated, and other hikers are always glad to play "expert" for you.


Edited by Glenn (04/16/08 01:30 PM)

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#94540 - 04/16/08 02:55 PM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
The legal stuff first: Out here in the west, the rule is generally 100 (sometimes 200) feet from the trail, 100 (sometimes 200) feet from lakes and streams, camp on bare ground using already established sites if at all possible. The distances vary by jurisdiction. You also need to remember that while you may see "established" (i.e., well-used) right on the lakeshore or stream bank, they are probably illegal if there are distance rules in effect. No clearing of vegetation or cutting of green wood or brush or digging ditches around your tent. Pack out every scrap of garbage. For toilet use, dig a "cathole" in the top layer of soil (no more than 6 inches deep) and pack out your toilet paper. There may be rules about fires (and seasonal bans)--for instance, no fires at all, no fires at or above timberline, etc. If fires are legal, build them only in already established fire rings. In areas where there are bears you need to follow food storage rules (hang it high or use a bear canister) and these are good rules anywhere--there are other varmints like raccoons and mice and squirrels who'd also love to snack on your breakfast during the night.

Glenn's advice to call the ranger is an excellent one. The map of the jurisdiction (national forest or whatever) will probably have the rules printed it on it, and you should have a map anyway.

"Leave No Trace" principles are the rule everywhere, at least on Federal lands.

OK, that's the legal stuff. The ideal tent site is reasonably level and is not in a depression that will fill with water in a hard or prolonged rain (that's how I found out that a soggy synthetic sleeping bag is no warmer than a soggy down one). You want to remove sticks and rocks or anything that might puncture or rub a hole in your tent floor. Another lesson I learned the hard way--don't pitch over a mouse hole (the mouse never came into the tent but he sure did chew a hole in my tent floor). And look up--you don't want to sleep under large dead branches or close to dead trees (known as "widow-makers"). There's a recent thread on the ideal tent site that you might want to search for (be sure to change the time parameters).

Before leaving camp, do a thorough (and slow) walk-around to make sure you have everything and that you've taken every scrap of trash. I always take other people's trash with me, too. Fortunately, there's rarely much of that in the places I backpack.

For your first real backpacking trip, I'd pick a short trip, only a few miles in from the trailhead, so that if everything should hit the fan you can bail out. For a first trip it's probably going to take you twice as long to set up camp, eat dinner, etc. and to pack up in the morning as it does more experienced people (it still takes me a long time) and you don't want to have to rush things (it's supposed to be fun, after all!). So start looking for a camp spot in mid-afternoon and don't expect to be on the trail until mid-morning. Do practice setting up your tent in the living room or back yard at home until you can do it from memory. Try to figure out how you'd do this in the rain, too, without getting the inside of the tent wet. I always pack my tent in an outside pocket of my pack or on top of the pack so I can get it while leaving the rest of the pack covered.

Have a great trip, and please send us a trip report!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#94541 - 04/16/08 04:42 PM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Shadowangel

Where are you going? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Its kinda silly to ask about camping tips or processes without telling us where you are going because we live every place from polar Russia to Tennessee. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Things change depending on where you are and the weather.

The ranger meant there are "primative" meanng outhouse and picnic table campgrounds at $8, and you can camp in the back country for free. [Most probably you can 4wd to those primative camp grounds] The ranger meant "dispersed camping". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The Natl forest came out with a pamphlet called "HOW TO DISPERSED CAMP". It said its as easy as 1,2,3.
1) Find a place that you would like to camp.
2) Look for a no camping sign.
3) If theres no "no camping" sign - camp there. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Others have and will tell you the legal and LNT etc stuff. But you asked about a faux paux [sp?]. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> So - never "go" or leave toilet paper in the stream bed. Do not cut vegitation. Do not play a loud radio. Do not target practice. Do respect the space of other campers, share the lake, don't rile the animals, or dump anything in the lake. Do not clean fish or pots and pans in the lake. Do not build a fire under a tree that could catch on fire. If you have a dog, keep it on a leash. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Thats about all of the really important stuff, you'll learn more as you go along. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#94542 - 04/16/08 08:33 PM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: Jimshaw]
ShadowAngel Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 14
Thanks for all the tips, guys. Right now i'm looking at either the Butterfield Loop, or the Shores Lake Loop in western Arkansas. I live in Oklahoma, so was looking for something close to here, and I've heard water along the Ouchita dries up around may, which is when we'll be heading out. Both of these trails in Arkansas seem pretty well off as far as water year round, and both look like something that's doable.

As far as time, I figured we'd end up being pretty slow with everything first time around, so I planned in quite a bit of extra time. The ranger said people hike Butterfield in a day, but it makes a great overnight. I was planning on camping out there two nights, so the 15 mile hike would be split between 3 days. Should give plenty of time for just relaxing and enjoying ourselves, and cut out the rush. And if anything goes seriously wrong, we wouldn't be fifty miles from civilization.

I've always been outdoors inclined, but I guess I have kind of a "rules" oriented mindset. I've always camped in set, designated campgrounds, so the thought of just being able to say "Hey, that spot looks great!: and setting up is foreign to me. I'm really looking forward to it, though. Much as I like car camping, i've always wished there weren't fifty other campers a dozen yards from me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#94543 - 04/17/08 10:05 AM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
Slowfoot Offline
member

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Missouri
I've done the Butterfield Loop. I believe there is no camping inside Devil's Den State Park except for the campground, but you can camp almost anywhere in the national forest, following whatever rules they have about distance from trail, water, etc. The rangers at the park or the forest service should be able to tell you for sure. As I recall, there were a couple of established campsites along the trail in the national forest, but you don't have to use them. If you start at the park, you will need to get a (free) permit to park your car overnight.

I think the Shores Lake loop is entirely national forest, so you should be able to camp almost anywhere.


Edited by Slowfoot (04/17/08 10:06 AM)

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#94544 - 04/17/08 11:24 AM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: Slowfoot]
ShadowAngel Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 14
Think Shores Lake would be doable for a couple of people that are fairly new to backpacking and not in the greatest athletic shape? I can hike all day on flat ground or a little bit of incline, but i've never really done any real steep ascents or descents.

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#94545 - 04/17/08 07:34 PM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
As I understand it, here in the Ozarks primitive camping off trail means you do *not* camp where others have camped. The primitive site the rangers spoke of are probably sites that are close to the trail, mostly flat, and mostly dirt. There may be some rocks to sit on and a rock fire ring. Probably no table. Definitely no toilet.

Go at least a few hundred yards from the trail and a couple hundred feet from a stream and find a spot. The further from the trail the better is how I feel about it. Check the fire forecast before you light a fire. Make sure it's completely out and scatter the charcoal and ash. (Go back and check this time next year to see if any Morels are growing around there <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jason will get mad at me but I just can't help myself....

If you're talking about bushwhacking off trail in May, I have to tell you that's a tough one. Ticks, Chiggers, Snakes, Poison Ivy, Heat, and Water are all issues. I've described it more in previous post. I got a few ticks on me today so I can confirm they're out there. They'll be thick from now until October. Mid October to Mid April is backpacking season where you're going. But there is still a reason to head that way....

If you might want to do a float trip instead and camp along a river. I really think you'd enjoy the float more. Bring a mask and snorkel. Camp on the gravel bars. Sleep under the stars. A three day float in the middle of a May week is pretty sweet, in fact, it's considered the best place in the world to be if you're from around here <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Check out this site for info on the Buffalo River. I'm sure there are other good sites for other rivers like the Mulberry. The outfitters there will tell you what you need. It's pretty much the same as what you'd bring for a hike.

If your heart is set on Backpacking I hear New Mexico has some nice places to backpack in the Spring. Around Taos is supposed to be pretty nice. I've haven't been there yet, but it looks like the best, closest place to us for Spring/Early Summer backpacking. (I'd still rather be on the Buffalo in May though).

Bill

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#94546 - 04/18/08 08:20 AM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: billstephenson]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
My first real backpacking trips were in NP's so the areas to camp in were real backcountry camps - and you had to use them (like up at Rainier) unless you had a real permit for 1/4 mile off the trail. That helped so much - I knew I'd find camp "x" miles in <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It got different of course on NF lands....here in the PNW though there are always established campsites near every freaking lake, river or spit of water. So no fears...lol!
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www.trailcooking.com

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#94547 - 04/18/08 08:41 AM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
Slowfoot Offline
member

Registered: 04/22/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Missouri
I haven't actually hiked the Shores Lake loop. I think it goes all the way up to White Rock Mountain, right? I have hiked up there on the Ozark Highlands Trail, and it's a pretty tough climb. For a first trip, it might not be the best choice if you are not sure of your fitness level, especially if you haven't hiked long stretches uphill with a full pack before.

As for backpacking in Arkansas in the summer, it's not the best time to go, but I've done it. It depends on how clear the trail is, the temperature, and how well your bug repellent works. If you've hiked and camped in the summer already, then the main difference should be that carrying a heavier pack makes you hotter and more tired.

The Butterfield Trail is probably better for late spring/summer. I would think it is used a lot more, plus it's a horse trail most of the way, so it should be wider and clearer. And less strenuous.

I can't argue with Bill's suggestion to float the Buffalo instead, but if you are intent on backpacking and it's not too hot, it should work out ok.

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#94548 - 04/18/08 11:04 AM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: Slowfoot]
ShadowAngel Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 14
I'd like to do the float, actually.. I did one a few years back and had a blast. Unfortunately, my fiance has led a pretty sheltered life, and lacks some basic skills needed for something like that. Namely, she can't swim, which might be a problem on a river.

I guess I picked sort of a bad time to go on our first trip, what with the heat and such, huh? I'm sure it'll still be fun and relaxing, but i'm looking forward to fall already. I've always liked camping in the fall, and winter camping looks pretty nice as well.

Maybe I should look around for someplace that still wouldn't be real hot in late may. Was hoping to stay around Oklahoma, but it's not really a necessity.

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#94549 - 04/18/08 04:24 PM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Ahh... I didn't think of that. Ok, maybe you could try this...

Camp at campgrounds near the Buffalo River and do day hikes along the shore and well used trails.

Kyles Landing and Erbie both come to mind as places that would work great for that. Both are great places to explore. Then check out Alum Cove, Pedestal Rocks, and Lost Valley too, you can take a very scenic drive to get there from Erbie and they are all really cool places to day hike. When you get back to camp you can jump in the River where it's shallow and cool off.

This will introduce her to floating too. She'll see that the river is not dangerous, very few tip over, and mostly only those that are trying at that, and lots of people wear life vest too. She'll see kids and grandmas floating and having fun.

See if she won't take a short float. Show her places to camp along the river, and I bet she'll be raring to go again.

BTW, the river will be perfect tomorrow and my wife and I are going to float from Ponca to Steel Creek or Kyles Landing. I'll let you know how it went <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bill

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#94550 - 04/19/08 08:02 AM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
jshannon Offline
member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 410
Loc: North Texas
I did the Butterfield loop last weekend...about three miles were shut down due to flooding, but it might be open now..call Ranger Satan out at Devil's Den to ask if that is a concern. We just started at the next trailhead after the closed portion.

http://picasaweb.google.com/jshannonmd/200804ButterfieldTrail


Edited by jshannon (04/19/08 08:06 AM)
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#94551 - 04/19/08 02:37 PM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: jshannon]
ShadowAngel Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 14
Quote:
I did the Butterfield loop last weekend...about three miles were shut down due to flooding, but it might be open now..call Ranger Satan out at Devil's Den to ask if that is a concern. We just started at the next trailhead after the closed portion.

http://picasaweb.google.com/jshannonmd/200804ButterfieldTrail


I called and they said those few miles of trail were shut down indefinitely..I guess the floods washed them out. That's a bummer. Kind of ruins my "loop" plan.

They also said that you could backcountry camp anywhere off the trail if you were in the national forest area, but if you were inside devil's den, you had to camp in one of the designated spots. Guess I need to examine a trail map to see where the national forest starts and devil's den ends.

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#94552 - 04/23/08 10:12 AM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: ShadowAngel]
Paul_C Offline
member

Registered: 07/14/05
Posts: 506
Loc: Beaverton, Orygun
Just remember if you are allowed to disperse camp in the forest, fires are not allowed outside of designated camp spots with a fire ring. There may also be additional fire restrictions depending on the weather and fire risk. Sometimes liquid fuel stoves are even restricted, I've seen this in the Eldorado Forest in CA.

Have fun!
_________________________
Jeeper - NW mountain roamer

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#94553 - 05/27/08 09:07 AM Re: Backcountry camping? [Re: Paul_C]
ShadowAngel Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 14
I'm back, and I have my trip report added to the reports section if anyone's interested. Thanks for all the advice!

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