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#93126 - 03/25/08 12:49 PM Alternatives to packing . . .
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
[/b]Purposely[/b] didn't put this in the "Lightweight sidearms . . ." topic since I didn't want to rain on a parade with a thousand views and 67 posts -- in less than two weeks.

But again, I've got to wonder . . . how many views and posts would there be on one of those gun forums with your topic entitled, "Let's go hiking!" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Ha! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I've always wondered about the frequent and often esoteric discussions about guns on this forum (it's not a hunting forum), since we can't legally even take a gun to many of the places we hike (i.e., national parks). Is it because some of our members (for whom I have great respect for with their ultralight hiking observations) don't feel comfortable discussing guns on those gun forums because those other folks are a bunch of (gun) nuts or something? Or they don't feel comfortable on a gun forum saying they are using their guns for protection while hiking? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm just curious.

Anyway, read this on the Dallas Morning News site dallasnews.com, airline biz blog today:

Quote:
Reports say the gun of a US Airways pilot accidentally discharged on a flight Saturday from Denver to Charlotte, N.C. No one was hurt, although I'm sure many were surprised. The airplane was taken out of service to be checked for damage.

The pilot was authorized to carry a gun under the Federal Flight Deck Officer (FFDO) program, administered by the U.S. Transportation Security Commission.

(That comes from here.)

Thing is he probably has -- no, he surely has -- more training with that sidearm and the safety procedures required than most (99.95 per cent) of us hikers. (Yeah, yeah, okay -- you're that .05 per cent.) So if he's accidentally shooting his gun off in the cockpit of an airplane, then surely we got to be a little concerned about blowin' away someone in our tent.

Which leads me to this: Wouldn't a can of bear spray work just fine? I mean, I've done some research, and I haven't found anyone that's been killed accidentally by their bear spray discharging while hiking. It might sting a little, but not kill you or your hiking buddy.
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#93127 - 03/25/08 01:26 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Kevon....I read that article too. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I'll bet what happened is that the pilot's Glock (not sure but likely) got triggered in his pilot brief case by something it caught on. Glocks don't have external, manual safety's....if you pull the trigger, it fires. No excuses, I say. If you are going to fly with something like that, it better have 100% of your attention. That makes 200% since 100% is also flying the airplane. Now, theres a market for aircraft safe firearms! You watch!


As far as gun forums go....I'm not on any but I do read from time to time. Once in a while there's a backpacking post of some kind and the poster doesn't get flamed. They do get some interesting responses though, no different than here.


Quote:
Wouldn't a can of bear spray work just fine?


Maybe. All depends on where you are hiking and what the likely threat might be.
In my case, I carry nothing, other than one trekking pole, 99.999% of the time. My wits are much lighter... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Where I do carry is on the Tex/Mex border, where bear spray would do nothing but taste good on tacos. I took some cop training last year and learned that about 30% of humans aren't affected by chemical sprays....which is why Tasers are popular.
I also sometimes carry when doing trail work. I've carried spray but find it doesn't do anything for dogs, wind direction is important, and after a couple years doesn't come out of the can at all. Our animal control guys all carry guns now.
I've never carried, nor am likely to, in cat or black bear country. In grizzly country, one of our party was armed, a pro guide, and carried no spray. His point was....again, depends on where you are hiking and how much time you have between you and bear. We went through many patches of 'devils glove' which bears nap in. Very different than seeing a few bears out on the sand bars.

So, it's all in where you hike and what you are likely to come up against, weighted against the odds of attack and willingness to haul dead weight. Most of the time I chose to 'take my chances'....and I'm over a half century old. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#93128 - 03/25/08 02:14 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
When did Barney Fife get a pilot's license? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#93129 - 03/25/08 03:43 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Firearm safety is something alot of people lack, and as for how much "training" this pilot had I wouldn't count on it.

Not to "Cop bash" but not all cops can shoot decently, many just practice and re-qualify every 6 months or a year when the department makes them, and then the gun sits in the holster till they start practicing for a couple of weeks before next re-qualifying testing. Just like, just cause this pilot may have had a small "course" to outline some of the "rules" he should fallow if and when he ever did shoot on the plane doesn't make him a safe gun handler or a good shot. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As Dryer said, its probably a Glock, BUT this is still a training issue, the pilot should have never had it in "condition red" which means a round in the chamber and the safety off. You only have a firearm in that condition when your going to shoot at something, condition yellow with a loaded magazine in the firearm, safety on and no round in the chamber should have been how he was carrying it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Bear spray doesn't always work there have been studies on this you may want to check out, so being in Ontario, where we are currently having issues with the over population of black bears thanks to the spring bear hunt canncellation, I'll trust my life to my shooting skills with a shotgun loaded with slugs before I trust it to diluted pepper spray. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

And yes, I do go shooting, hunting and the like, thats one of the many symptoms of being a outdoor nut. You enjoy that kind of thing.

Dimitri

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#93130 - 03/25/08 05:31 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
Here's my view: Well all come from different parts of the country, or from other countries altogether. People from different places have differing views on weapons, especially a kind as politically charged as firearms. Behavior, ethics, & attitudes regarding their use are not shared by all, and since this is not a gun-specific forum, there will be a cross-section of opinions on the issue.

You may call me "gun nut" if you wish, but I do think guns have a place in ultralight hiking forums. A handgun is as much a part of my gear as a cook set or first aid kit: it has several functions (protection, emergency food procurement) and I make a decision of what I carry based on its weight vs. the level of power it needs to provide. I weigh it and its associated items along with the rest of my gear. I carry it because that's what people do in the place that I grew up; I'm not particularly fascinated by guns, yet I'd feel irresponsible if I didn't have one with me.

Bear spray is what you should carry if it will make you feel safe. It takes a lot less training and practice to use it effectively than a gun, and it's lighter. But you do need to practice using it, and it needs to be easily accessible, not in your pack or in the tent. I read a story in Backpacker magazine (Oct. '06) of a girl who couldn't figure out how to use it while a grizzly mauled her dad. That stuff will do more than sting if it gets in your face, too; I heard about some hikers who tried to use it on a blackbear that was hanging outside their tent at night, but they sprayed themselves while in the tent & ended up barfing all over the place. Bear spray does also has the advantage that it's legal in more areas than guns.

There are no "accidental discharges", only negligent discharges and intentional discharges. If that pilot's gun went off because it caught on something in his luggage, then he's at fault for not using a proper holster that would control his weapon within; there are products designed for this. Owning a gun means having it under your control 24/7. People in positions of authority have to be every bit as responsible about their weapons as the average citizen.

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#93131 - 03/25/08 06:43 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
dla Offline
member

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
It's the male equivalent of abortion rights discussions.

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#93132 - 03/25/08 06:45 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: dla]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
There are many men who have opinions on abortion. As there are many women who have opinions on owning guns.

There are many female gun owning shooters out there, so do not so be so quick to discount them.

Dimitri

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#93133 - 03/26/08 08:11 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dimitri]
ShadowAngel Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/11/08
Posts: 14
You might be surprised about gun forums and backpacking. Many firearm enthusiasts are also outdoors enthusiasts, myself included. I spend a lot of time on a gun forum, and i've mentioned backpacking there a number of times and gotten extremely positive responses. I've seen a lot of other posters experience the same. I got some great advice on a revolver that I carry while hiking from that forum.

Myself, I carry even when i'm in the city, so if i'm going into the wilderness, i'll definitely carry there. I'd say the city is more dangerous as far as human predators go, but the outdoors has plenty of applications for a firearm.

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#93134 - 03/26/08 10:18 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Wolfeye]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Quote:
There are no "accidental discharges", only negligent discharges and intentional discharges. If that pilot's gun went off because it caught on something in his luggage, then he's at fault for not using a proper holster that would control his weapon within; there are products designed for this. Owning a gun means having it under your control 24/7. People in positions of authority have to be every bit as responsible about their weapons as the average citizen.


100% agree. That is why you either get a firearm with adequate safety controls or properly use a holster. For instance on both my Kimber and my Springfield I have to have my hand on the back of the grip to fire (my hand is pressing in on a safety device when doing that). That device alone makes it so you cannot "accidentally" have it "go off". In further, I cannot even shoot one of my husband's 45's due to the fact that my hands are not strong enough to press on that and still hold the weight of the pistol!

I do have a revolver that has NO safety built in and this means that the revolver stays in its holster at all times. It cannot go off when properly holstered. And as well it has a very heavy trigger pull so it requires quite the pull back to even shoot as well.

This case sounds like sloppy handling of an already poor design of gun.
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#93135 - 03/26/08 12:04 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I think it is relevant to talk about guns on a hiking forum. I could compare it to tents, or hammocks. Some people think they are absolutely necessary, others think there are better alternatives. What I like about this forum is that there are many people (including yourself) who are able to intelligently, and civilly, convey their opinions one way or the other. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As for me, I don't carry right now. I just can't afford one, so I carry my can of bear spray. If I bring it, it is on my belt, ready to go.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#93136 - 03/26/08 01:37 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Well, I guessed wrong. The pilot had an H&K USP, not a Glock, which makes things even more complicated. The Glock is 'safe' unless the WHOLE trigger is pulled. It has a little tab on the trigger that deactivates 3 safeties at the same time.
The H&K USP, on the other hand, has three possible variants. Each starts out as a double action, and there's also a safety lever. This means someone was likely dinking around with the thing OR it was not 'de-cocked' after it's last firing and the safety put on. The gun had to be in "battery" to go off....and it did!

I too feel arms (guns, spray, knives, hiking poles, etc.) are as relevant to hiking/backpacking as anything else. It's all in where you hike and what the threat level is, as to 'if' and 'what with' you arm yourself.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#93137 - 03/26/08 02:37 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dryer]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I don't understand why a pilot wouldn't carry an auto with the chamber empty. It doesn't add that much time to rack a round and it reduces the liklihood of accidental discharge.

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#93138 - 03/26/08 03:35 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Exactly. With 'hardened' flight decks it would seem that extra second is available. Plus, the sound of a slide being racked is about as attention getting as a pump shotgun. Who knows what what happened...my moneys on improper securing/storage of the sidearm.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#93139 - 03/26/08 03:38 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dryer]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Dryer,

My money is on improper handling caused by a lack of knowledge and training.

Dimitri

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#93140 - 03/27/08 06:57 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dryer]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
Exactly. With 'hardened' flight decks it would seem that extra second is available. Plus, the sound of a slide being racked is about as attention getting as a pump shotgun. Who knows what what happened...my moneys on improper securing/storage of the sidearm.


When my sister-in-law was thinking about a gun for home protection, I recommended a small 20g pump. The number 1 reason being the sound that it makes when you pump it. It that don't scare someone, then they deserve getting shot. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Oh yeah, I agree. Why did he have a round chambered? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Edited by finallyME (03/27/08 06:58 AM)
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#93141 - 03/27/08 08:26 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: finallyME]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1736
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Quote:
The number 1 reason being the sound that it makes when you pump it. It that don't scare someone, then they deserve getting shot


Problem is, in the dark, the sound of a pistol or shotgun being racked is a perfect way to let the bad guy (Or gal: I must eschew sexist thinking <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />) know where you are. And then, if you don't know where THEY are you are in trouble.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#93142 - 03/27/08 08:36 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: finallyME]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Oh yeah, I agree. Why did he have a round chambered?


Probably because that's what the 'Concealed Carry' training is telling them to do.
Now days it's "no safety's on DAO" pistols, just like on revolvers. I instinctively don't chamber rounds and use safety's because I grew up shooting 1911 style pistols. Now days days "condition 1" is the carry recommendation. That's scary to me, so I usually carry "condition 3", unless I have an immanent reason to be 'cocked and locked'. I purposely bought a DAO 9mm pistol WITH a 1911 style safety because that's where my thumb automatically goes. Many DAO (double action only) pistols have no safety at all. Glocks are way different and are strange to me because there are three safeties that all disappear when you pull the trigger...a combat pistol.

1911 "Conditions of readiness":

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.

Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.

Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.

Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.

Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.




When push comes to shove, we're probably going to find that someone on the flight deck was messing around with the gun.

Interestingly, back to the original post.....a flight deck could carry a 'fire extinguisher' with 'chemical spray' charged with about 2000 psi and 'fire-hose' any attacker. The thing could even carry full auto BB's. So a pistol is not the only option available.
My wasp nest shooter is an old fire extinguisher, charged with 100 psi and hot soapy water. Most incredible water cannon you ever saw!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#93143 - 03/27/08 09:48 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Pika]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Lasers are ones 'at home' friend. The laser grips are a good buy to have put on ones 'at home' defense line. That and a tactical flashlight like a Surefire. The light alone will nearly blind you if shined in your eyes. That way you see the bad person(s) and they cannot see your position.
_________________________
Freezer Bag Cooking, Trail Cooking, Recipes, Gear and Beyond:
www.trailcooking.com

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#93144 - 03/27/08 12:34 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: sarbar]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
My Walther P38 can be safely carried with a round at battery and the hammer down. There is small pin above the hammer that protrudes just enough to be felt with your thumb in the dark to say "there is a round chambered" without having to do something noisey to find out. Obviously if there are people after you and you are camped out then you need some firepower like an AR15 or M16, but under normal circumstances I think a concealed weapon that would be employed after being robbed or for escape would be preferable to a shootout with other people around to get hit.

Which brings up the point, if someone took a hostage while I was camping probably a .22LR would be the ONLY weapon I would shoot them with knowing the accuracy of putting a round in someones ear while you wife or other friend is being held closely to a person brandishing a weapon.

However I normally do not pack and thats the meaning of this post. I have scared off bears and mtn lions unarmed, coyotes run from me - you know "brave men shiver - I'm MikeFink, King of the River..." from davy crocket riverboat.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93145 - 03/27/08 01:18 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Code:
 .22LR would be the ONLY weapon I would shoot them with ... 



Hmmmm, Jim....you might want to dial that up to a .25. My cheapo "throw down <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />", Jennings .22 LR will go almost all the way through a Dallas phone book. That's 3 times farther than a .380 will penetrate. It's my 'dog' gun when doing trail work....never had to use it though, yet. .22's are like shooting something with an ice pick. All penetration. You make a good point though. When I'm solo and camping, cocked and locked is the readiness state, within easy grasp....if I bother at all.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#93146 - 03/27/08 01:53 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
kevon:

Geez, now look what you've done? You've created another gun thread! So much for the alternatives (unless they're holsters or laser grips).

But with you talking to yourself here, hopefully you've got the gun posters believing that at least one person (you!) should practice gun control -- for everyone else's sake.

That aside, I've got to point out that I'm probably not the only one living in a big city on this forum. But the thing is, where I live is turning into a really big, bad city. As the economy has turned south here, I've watched an alarming increase in theft and violent crime. An almost daily armored car robbery (to the point that they're talking about an ordinance to not pick up money in an amored car at schools when the kids are getting out.) We've had a rash of murders at Wendy's, Chili's, even a fancy steak house (unsolved), enough that I really don't care to go out to eat here anymore. They've used stolen bulldozers to knock over the ATMs at the same Bank of America branch twice -- in the last 4 months. We've had 22 burglaries in my marina in the past year, one last week four slips down. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> And then you've got stuff like this.

So when I get on a plane and eventually get to a trailhead and out in the wilderness, I'm hoping to leave that all behind. Rose-colored glasses for the rest of the world -- the outdoor world -- I guess. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#93147 - 03/27/08 03:03 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
Kevon....big cities bring big city crime. Plus, the news media makes it seem all the bigger. I moved to DeSoto in the 60s when it was under 5,000. We're now close to 50,000 and part of Dallas. We went from small town crime to big city crime, and all the ugly stuff you describe (except that arms dealer....22 years old...wow.) ONE GUY was responsible for 300 burglaries, many in my neighborhood, over the last two years. He's been caught and the break-in rate has slowed to a crawl. We've got the "scare crow bandits' here. A ring of bank robbers that work in 5's and 6's...none caught and hitting banks all over the metroplex. So, lots of big city crime might be caused by just a few bad apples.
Guns, or lack of guns, really makes no difference. The guns aren't doing the violence. Nor are the knives or ATM bulldozers. It's people who fear no consequences for their actions, nor have the IQ to realize there are other options in life.
What stops crime is for us citizens to be vigilant and watch out for each other. That's what we did here and I've met more neighbors in 2 years than the other 20 I've lived in this neighborhood! Our 'citizens police academy' and 'citizens on patrol' classes are packed.
So, when people cause crime, other people undo crime. Our local police department is very active getting the community and HOA's involved. It works and none of us carry guns! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Sounds like your marina needs to organize.

ps...I know you lived in these parts and if memory serves, your Mom still does??
DFW is starting to act like Chicago.


Edited by Dryer (03/27/08 03:13 PM)
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#93148 - 03/27/08 03:07 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dryer]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Got a point there, its the people doing it not the guns.

I have yet to see any of my guns break out of the gun safe, break into the ammo safe, load a round into the magazine, cycle the action, and then pull the trigger on its own.

Dimitri

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#93149 - 03/27/08 08:52 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
I'm sorry to hear how bad things are getting there. I can understand wanting to leave it all behind; one of the reasons I go hiking is so I can get away from the car and cell phone. I can't imagine wanting to leave behind the place I live.

"Gun control" is a touchy issue, though. I've lived in a rural area where guns are associated with food, safety, discipline, skill, and sport; I've also lived in a large urban area where guns are associated with crime, violent movies, violent video games, and children at home playing with Daddy's loaded gun in the sock drawer. The attitudes are remarkably different, and you really have to swallow your pride to listen to arguements from both sides seriously. A city person's idea of how guns should be treated is 180 degrees different than someone who grew up practically in the woods. The same laws won't work for both.

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#93150 - 03/28/08 07:02 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dimitri]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

I have yet to see any of my guns break out of the gun safe, break into the ammo safe, load a round into the magazine, cycle the action, and then pull the trigger on its own.


That's strange. Mine do it all the time. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Ok, so maybe not. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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