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#93151 - 03/28/08 08:38 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: finallyME]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Watch out, finally, there are support groups out there for people like you...... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#93152 - 03/28/08 09:49 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
BobEFord Offline
member

Registered: 01/28/08
Posts: 72
Loc: SE AZ
kevonionia,

As an alternative to deadly force, the National Park Rangers now pack a Tazer (on the other side of there body from their handgun).

http://www.tazers.com/

They have an appropiate use in defense situations - generally when trying to stop or subdue one individual human. Weight 18 ounces.

Any stories out there to share on shocked bears? I would be interested to see a Youtube video of such an experience in the field. How about one of a bear getting sprayed?

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#93153 - 03/28/08 08:18 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: BobEFord]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Bob
I think if'n yer gonna use a Tazer on a bear <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> you should most likely file all of the sharp edges <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> off'n it first.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Seriously these animals have defensive radias and if you're inside that distance shocking it, the bear is gonna get you to stop the shock.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93154 - 03/28/08 08:55 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dimitri]
6brnorma Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 252
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
My money is on improper handling caused by a lack of knowledge and training.


I'm sure you're right Dimitri, as MO would say ... "keep the booger hook off the bang button" .... that'll solve the problem every time.

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#93155 - 03/28/08 11:57 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: BobEFord]
GreenandTan Offline
member

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 56
I would not rely on a Taser for defense situation on any extended outdoor trip. They are battery operated after all. Tasers available to consumers do not work as well on large animals as they do on humans. I recall seeing a video where an experimental (much stronger ) Taser was used on a bull with some success, but this is nothing available for the hiker.

The Taser is designed to immobilize the subject for 5 seconds for law enforcement applications giving enough time to handcuff the suspect. The civilian model immobilizes the subject for 30 seconds giving the user time to escape. Even if that did work on a bear, I don't think 30 seconds is enough time to get far enough away from an angry bear no matter how fast you run. The range of the probes is 15 feet for civilians.

I think the only alternative to carrying a firearm, if you feel you need the protection, is a can of bear spray. You should train on deploying the spray quickly and with confidence.

Most important, more so than any equipment or weapons you can carry, is knowing your area, knowing the signs of predators in the area, knowing their behavior, having a plan, taking preventative measures (like proper food storage) and staying aware of your surroundings at all times.

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#93156 - 03/29/08 10:45 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
I live in Henderson, NV, a quiet(er) southern suburb of Las Vegas which has a VERY high crime rate. I've had a Henderson police neighbor and an FBI hiking buddy both tell me to carry a concealed weapon (W/permit) in 'Vegas. Probably soon I'll do that.

So far I don't carry in the back country but I AM considering getting a titanium Tarus .44 magnum pistol for backpacking. My big canister of bear spray gives me litttle confidence, even when I've had it in hand & ready in Yosemite on two "bear meetings". I'd rather have the .44 as a backup in bear country and my Glock 17 in "Indian territory" in 'Vegas.

What's that saying? "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6."...pallbearers,that is.

Call me an old curmudgeon but call me a LIVE curmudgeon.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#93157 - 03/29/08 10:52 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
Guns don't "accidentally discharge." He put his finger on the trigger and squeezed, end of story. You don't need much training not to put your finger on the trigger unless you're about to shoot something. You just need to not be stupid. Sorry, but it's really that simple.

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#93158 - 03/29/08 01:29 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: 300winmag]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Winni
I wonder if you ever shot a Ruger Redhawk.44 <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> While the blackhawk jumps in your hand and converts a lot of energy to angular momentum, a redhawk .44 is similar to holding your hand open and having someone hit it with a baseball bat. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> A titanium .44 would not be controlable. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You would flinch before the bullet left the barrel and you would never get a good second shot. Also I bet its a short barrel. Come on dude, you know better. Better to have a smaller load on target, than a big load that misses the barn door.

OR
You have hands like Superman and don't really need a gun at all, you just hold the bullet and thunk it with your fingernail... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93159 - 04/30/08 06:54 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Hector]
lv2fsh Offline
member

Registered: 04/27/08
Posts: 111
Loc: socal
Quote:
Guns don't "accidentally discharge." He put his finger on the trigger and squeezed, end of story. You don't need much training not to put your finger on the trigger unless you're about to shoot something. You just need to not be stupid. Sorry, but it's really that simple.

As a Deputy Sheriff I agree with Hector. That gun fired when someone's finger pulled the trigger. At the range, my department trains and stresses over and over "MASTERGRIP". That is your trigger finger never goes on the trigger untill you are going to fire. Most modern handguns have safety transfer bars that make it so the firing pin cannot contact the primer unless the trigger is held all the way back. This virtually eliminates the "accidental" discharge.

I also have no problem with any honest law abiding citizen carrying a gun. The "BAD GUYS" don't sit around discussing this. While my experience with wild animals has always been for them to try to get away from human contact, it is somewhat reassuring to be able to defend myself if Yogi decides that I look tastier than grubs and berries. If it makes you more comfortable to think it couldn't happen or probably won't then don't carry but I will.

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#93160 - 05/01/08 10:19 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: lv2fsh]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Partial reasons not to take your gun:

Cougars in attack mode use ambush method. Ordinarily this would leave no time for self defense with a firearm.

In Alaska, if you kill a bear, you are responsible for removing the carcass.

You don't indulge in logical fallacies of any kind.
http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/toc.htm

---------------

The number of animal attacks on hikers annually, divided by the number of hikers, equals what?

There is lots of similar, reliable information available, but I find this from Lee County (Fla.) Sherriff's Office):

"A firearm is more than forty times as likely to hurt or kill a family member as to stop a crime."

-----------

Reason to take your gun: If you think the effort is worth whatever satisfaction you may get.

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#93161 - 05/01/08 10:26 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: johndavid]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
> Partial reasons not to take your gun

Let us know when you come up with a whole one. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

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#93162 - 05/01/08 10:56 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: johndavid]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Excellent website you reference!

However, the Lee County Sheriff's Office, making the statement:
"A firearm is more than forty times as likely to hurt or kill a family member as to stop a crime."...
apparently has never visited that website. I suspect their officers also don't carry firearms, tasers, or pepper spray, in support of the '4000%' statistic. "Do as we say, not as we do." I suggest if one of their officers pointed a firearm at an attacker in progress, the situation would quickly change, and likely without violence. (i think they know that....they just want it to be a secret.... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />)

A "firearm" is 100% unlikely to do anything but sit there. It's the operator controlling that firearm that might fall into that statistic, however nebulous, depending upon training and circumstances. Anyone can be stupid with anything...and sadly, stupid can kill.

True what you say about cougars and bears, but I don't bother with a weapon for them anyway....heck, that's exactly what I want to see!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#93163 - 05/01/08 12:19 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: johndavid]
lv2fsh Offline
member

Registered: 04/27/08
Posts: 111
Loc: socal
I have read about cougar attacks and it would appear that a weapon can definately increase your chances of survival. My daughter's friend, Anne Hjelle, was attacked by a mountain lion while mountain biking. She is alive because she and her companion fought back. The friend fought off the lion with a stick. Mountain lions are like all cats and are frightened by loud noises. A gun of any kind would have been way better than a stick. For a summary try reading
www.cougarinfo.org/attacks3.htm
As for bears, while they are usually after your food and can be driven off, sometimes they decide to eat you. In that case , you had better be ready to fight anyway you can. Playing dead when a black bear is trying to eat you is going to result in you being eaten. In nature(not the movies) animals do not kill everything before they eat it. When the critter is trying to eat me. I want to be able to fight back in the most effective way. I don't pin all of my hopes on a firearm. I also carry pepperspray and am almost never without my knife(which is either a fixed blade or one hand opening). I plan on keeping my spot at the top of the food chain. Below is a recomendation of what to do if threatened by a cougar. It can be added that you should never run from a cougar or a bear. With bears. you should speak calmly and back slowly away but if it comes for you, get ready to fight.

If a cougar behaves aggressively:

Arm yourself with a large stick, throw rocks, speak loudly and firmly. Convince the cougar that you are a threat not prey.

If a cougar attacks, fight back! Many people have survived cougar attacks by fighting back with anything, including rocks, sticks, bare fists, and fishing poles.

Finally, gun ownership and use is a personal choice that brings with it a huge responsibility. I would not give my seven year old grandson a chainsaw but I did give him a .22 rifle and have taught him gun safety and how to shoot. The bottom line is a gun is machine without a mind of it's own. Much like a car and to use the logic that guns can be used carelessly and cause injury, then I guess we shouldn't have cars either. Our safety is like every other aspect of the sport of backpacking. We all make personal decisions on what we need or want to take.

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#93164 - 05/01/08 03:23 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: johndavid]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
I know I'm not going to change your mind, but the number of accidental firearms deaths in the USA in 1996 (just a random year the statistics are pretty much the same every year anyways comparing each other anyways) was 1,134 ... which by the way include more hunting accidents, police accidents, and the like not just your "inside the family home" accidents.

Cars that same year killed "accidently" over 43,500 people in the USA. While almost 3,000 people died cause of complications from medical procedures. So its almost 3 times more likely you'll die from your doctor cause of his actions then a gun accidentally.

As well according to economist Steven D. Levitt, yearly in the U.S. "there is 1 child killed by a gun for every 1 million-plus guns." Levitt also observes that yearly there is one drowning of a child for every 11,000 residential swimming pools.

Something to think about next time you walk into your doctors office or take a drive in your car or think about your pool or think putting in a new one.

Myself I'll be legally carrying a rifle with me when I'm out hiking and camping in the middle of no where, in areas I know there are plenty of black bears, and other animals that wish me harm.

By the way here is my source who copied the US Census report to get the numbers.
http://www.anesi.com/accdeath.htm

Dimitri


Edited by Dimitri (05/01/08 03:25 PM)

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#93165 - 05/01/08 05:25 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
12Step Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Southwest Ohio
This topic veers in that area of gun control and is about as comfortable talking about as bringing up topics of abortion, religion, and politics.

If you carrying a firearm it is your responsibility to be responsible. If your gun goes off accidentally, either you carrying a cheap gun, have little to no experience with it, or you are doing something irresponsible. The police department I work for I see MANY gunshot victims. Many were on the receiving end from drug deals gone bad and some of the "victims" have at one time put others on the same bed they are now lying in.

That aside.

The ones that have gunshot wounds from accidents were ALWAYS doing something stupid, like cleaning a loaded gun, screwing around with it, not checking or caring that it was loaded, or using a gun that is either poor in quality or not properly taken care of.

Law enforcement and conceal and carry classes, stress over and over and over the extreme importance of safety. Treat every gun like it's loaded, NEVER point a gun at someone unless you plan on using it, always point the gun down range, clean your weapon every time you use it, take the weapon to a armorer if it isn't working correctly, LOCK YOUR WEAPONS UP AT HOME, etc, etc, etc.

This is all common sense knowledge.

If I am carrying my off duty weapon, whether hiking, or out and about, my firearm is in a quality holster, concealed. More importantly, I don't broadcast I am armed for obvious reasons. I also maintain constant responsibility when armed because that what is required for the privilege of carrying.

As far as my opinion on gun control. If you outlaw guns for everyone, you might as well outlaw driving. People driving cars kill way more people than guns ever will.

Tom
_________________________
"Let's not miss the beauty of the forest by the ugliness of some of its trees." Bill W.

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#93166 - 05/03/08 04:35 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: 12Step]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
"......The ones that have gunshot wounds from accidents were ALWAYS doing something stupid ...".......And typically, "I never do anything stupid-- not me... nope never..."

It's not an argument about gun control. I own two guns and sometimes go camping with one, if I want to do a little hunting.....I'm not interested in gun control, and think the issue is extremely overblown by many gun owners.

It's only my opinion, but I think guns engender fantasies of omnipotence that have little bearing on reality. So can hitting a golf ball, I gather... That can be a fine fantasy, but it's a good idea not to get too carried away with it.

I've lived for ten years in one of the highest-crime cities in the nation, Jersey City, and have yet to directly witness a crime, unless you count a couple of bar brawls where nobody, thank goodness, used a gun for "self defense."

In the back country, I was the victim of a trailhead car break-in once, and also once, a victim of car vandalism. I'm supposed to shoot some hillbilly teenager because he keyed my car or stole $50 worth of luggage?

The only time a cougar ever showed an interest in me, I was unaware of his presence until an instant after he decided against trying to bite my head off. That's their modus operandi for hunting and it works well for them.

Yeah, if a cougar is trying to bite your head off, it's an excellent idea to fight back. But good luck finding your gun at that point and not shooting some bystander or yourself in the process. I think it would be much more efficient to just try peeling the thing off your head before his fangs hit your brain tissue.

I've had black bears trip over my tent guylines. Apparently, yelling obscenities is an effective, ultra-lite defense.

Grizzlies? Human fatalities are quite rare in areas where they are found. It's like a couple every year, divided by the total numbers of hikers in western Canada, Alaska, etc....Even if you push things, the probabilities of being attacked are low.. I've been in their territory not a lot, but a number of times. I do understand that they are a concern and in certain specific and particular circumstances, a firearm might be a reasonable precaution

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#93167 - 05/03/08 05:49 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: johndavid]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
JD
quote
"I've had black bears trip over my tent guylines. Apparently, yelling obscenities is an effective, ultra-lite defense."

giggle <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yep I've found that shouting obsenities and telling them what yer gonna do to them seems to be an adequate UL defense from javelina AND mtn lions AND bear, not to mention those teenagers you mentioned. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93168 - 05/03/08 05:59 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Jimshaw]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Shocking but true!!!!

Wild animals are usually afraid of people. What an insight!!! That goes even for habituated camp bears....

Bringing a gun due to fear of black bears orcougars is.... dunno what to say... yeah it's true...

Petty criminals also tend to run away. The chances of meeting a true psychotic killer in Jersey City are like a half-million to one....and drastically lower in the back country....Getting murdered is just not high on the list of potential problems.

Fear is most times a very irrational emotion and even when warranted, it's often unhelpful and dangerous, and will mess you up more than anything.
.....

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#93169 - 05/03/08 08:09 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: kevonionia]
crazyone Offline
member

Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 111
Loc: Northern Panhandle Of West Vir...
I do believe in people,who has any guns in their homes or on the trails are truly responsible in their actions. I feel that all people needs to be trained/practiced in using their guns so they know how to handle the guns properly. I do not carry a gun,while on the trails for I cannot afford a handgun but,I will not condemmed you if you do. The only thing I asked You better know how to treat that gun with respect and don't act stupid with it. Cause I will first tell you to quit it and if you don't don't. I will leave your butt there or If I feel threatin I will do anything to protect myself and leave you for the wild life. As a Emt I have seen too many injuries and death from people,who were being stupid and not thinking and I have lost several friends for this reason.

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#93170 - 05/04/08 07:08 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: crazyone]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
KelTec's handguns have had some good reviews and they can be had for under 400$

But yes your right training/common sense is the key. My opinion is, If your not about to use it keep the dang chamber clear, no need to rack the bolt till you need it, thats a 110% better safety then any firearm safety can be. As no matter how much you force the safety/trigger, by accident it will not fire no matter what.

Dimitri

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#93171 - 05/04/08 08:13 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dimitri]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Dimitri
I have to agree with you about an empty chamber. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> How long does it take to chamber a round? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Just long enough to see that the wolf jumping you is actually your buddies dog, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> or your buddy. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Since I carry a single action, I have to cock the hammer first - the time it takes to do that is enough. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In most animal defense encounters they won't really ambush you. The two lions I met up with were very cautious in their approach - I knew they were there long enough to have reacted in a very offensive screaming manner as I bared my teeth and waved my arms. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> For a lion, just being seen is a bad thing as far as they're concerned. Obsenities work as well on them as they do on house cats. Another thing you can do is sniff really loudly a few times to make the animal think you are sizing up its smell, this scares them, and cats can hear this sound through a door on a noisey afternoon. Act like a hunter and animals will avoid you.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#93172 - 05/04/08 08:36 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Jimshaw]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Single action pistols that are not cocked are pretty safe to have in the bush even with a loaded chamber. As having the hammer cocked takes alot more force then tripping the trigger or the safety in most firearms (from my experience anyways)

Myself I don't own any handguns and even if I did it would be illegal to take them in the bush with me as thy are restricted firearms and I do not have a that special permit to carry which they seem to only issue to a very select few professions which I am not one of (prospectors, armored car people and the like).

So I carry a rifle, semi-automatic, for small game hunting you see. "Yes thats right, I carry a medium bore rifle for hunting small game, here is my license Mr. Conservation Officer" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Anyways back to my original point, it takes very little more time if any to cock your firearm then it would to flick off the safety. So I think empty chamber and no safety is better then a loaded chamber and a safety.

Dimitri

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#93173 - 05/04/08 08:49 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Jimshaw]
johndavid Offline
member

Registered: 04/23/08
Posts: 260
Loc: jersey city NJ
Mt lions, like house cats, and unlike many other predators, rely on suprise attacks for hunting. No surprise, then probably no attack.

See
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q="stalk+and+ambush"+puma


etc.

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#93174 - 05/04/08 10:39 AM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: Dimitri]
lv2fsh Offline
member

Registered: 04/27/08
Posts: 111
Loc: socal
Alright, I think we've gotten way off the original topic of this thread. The topic was "alternatives to packing. I am asked this question at work all the time. Usually by crime victims. Domestic violence victims and women in general that are in fear for their or their families safety want and need protection, even if for just peace of mind. I always suggest pepper spray or tasers for people who don't want or have the training for firearms. If a person wants a firearm for home protection, I recomend a shotgun. (something about the sound of an 870 racking <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) But this is a backpacking forum. The same recomendation goes here. If you are comfortable and competant with a gun and want to pack the weight then that is your decision. If you are a gambler and like the odds (admittedly long) that you wont be a victim, then go for it. In Law enforcement, we have a use of force continuum. That is that you use the force necessary to acomplish your goal (ie;threat,arrest ect.) The continuum starts at uniform presence and goes up to strong voice commands,then firm grip or gesture,then on up through chemical weapons(pepper spray) to electronic weapons(taser) to impact weapons (baton) to finally deadly force,which can be guns,knives, vehicles or any other deadly weapon. The point is firearms are only a last resort. This doesn't mean that you can't or wont have to skip a step or two if the situation requires.

I carry a gun while packing or hiking because it is a tool that enhances my comfort level. I have used a handgun to start a fire one time when I lost my matches so It can be used for survival too. I also carry a heavier gas stove because that's what I prefer. What level of weight you carry or what you take is a personal choice that everyone of us makes. My wife carries a heavy slr camera because she is a photographer. If a person wants to hike into the wilderness with no tent and a beach towel then he made that choice and has to live with it. Some people carry cell phones,sat phones,gps, compasses,extra topo maps plb's ect. I don't but usually always have a firearm. My decision, my hike. Just pick the level of comfort you want and carry it.

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#93175 - 05/04/08 12:36 PM Re: Alternatives to packing . . . [Re: lv2fsh]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
I understand what your saying with your force continuum, but my thoughts are, if your going to use pepper spray or any other alternatives on a bear, its because its attacking you, and a bear or any other wild animal going to attack you in my opinion requires a quick and immediate end hence the use of a firearm including your 870 Remington shotgun being a good home and wilderness defense firearm. Unless ofcourse your dumb enough to try and stop a bear from eating your lunch with pepper spray, then well there are Awards for people like that.

I don't think you can compare a animal attack in the woods to a attack being done by another human. Simple fact of the matter is, no matter how hard you try, taking a baton to a bear and trying to "win" the confrontation wont happen. So how I see it its best to get to the highest level of force without wasting time that will end up costing you your life in a animal attack.

Dimitri

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