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#90758 - 02/19/08 11:37 PM What's the difference here?
aceatc Offline
member

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 109
Loc: WA, auburn
Why is this sleeping bag....
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores...mberId=12500226

....warmer than this sleeping bag?
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores...mberId=12500226

They both have the same amount of down fill so why is one 30 degrees warmer? (so they say)

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#90759 - 02/19/08 11:51 PM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: aceatc]
tarbubble Offline
member

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 996
Loc: ca-li-for-ni-a
no, one has 10 oz and one has 22 oz of fill. they both have 650 fill, is that what you were looking at?

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#90760 - 02/20/08 06:29 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: tarbubble]
jaiden Offline
member

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 123
Quote:
no, one has 10 oz and one has 22 oz of fill. they both have 650 fill, is that what you were looking at?


yep, i think you've confused "650 fill" with the weight of the down. 650 fill is the TYPE of down, not the quantity. 650 fill means that is takes up a larger amount of space (650 cc) for each ounce of down vs 550, and less space than 700 or 800 or whatever. So generally speaking, the higher that number is, the lighter a bag will be for the same warmth (assuming the same construction). 10 oz of 850 fill will be a lot warmer and loftier than 10 oz of 500 fill. some people actually like the 550 fill for clothing because it doesn't squash as easily (by other clothing or pack straps). Higher fill numbers are easier to compress, and are much smaller when compressed. This makes it good for sleeping bags, when you need a lot of down. Look at the size and weight of western mountaineering bags for a comparison.

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#90761 - 02/20/08 07:29 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: jaiden]
aceatc Offline
member

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 109
Loc: WA, auburn
650fill is the type of fill....

.. thank you very much I had no idea. I was lost up until now. The world makes sense once again.

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#90762 - 02/20/08 10:49 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: aceatc]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Another reason I keep posting that you, ACEATC belong in the BEGINNERS Forum not populating the other Forums with such basic questions that are being answered over there <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Might I suggest you put in a bit of effort here and go read a half dozen books on backpacking and then return with questions <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You could gain much knowledge just from flipping through a Campmor catalog IMO!

Sometimes I just have to call it like I see it, yer lazy bro go read! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#90763 - 02/20/08 11:39 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Earthling]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
If you haven't already read at least one comprehensive guide to gear and technique, here are a few to consider. I don't always agree with everything they have to say, and they lack a little bit when it comes to ultralight, but they're good introductory books.

The Boy Scout Fieldbook really isn't too horrible, though I get the impression that the author thinks ultralight is something you use to cut down on your electric bill. You'll have to read several different chapters to get the information you need, but it's a pleasant way to spend a cold, snowy Sunday afternoon.

These two are significantly better. Both are pretty quick reads, with solid basic information (such as, what's the difference between synthetic and down bags, what's the difference between a filter and a purifier, etc.) :

1. Hiking and Backpacking (A Trailside Guide), by Karen Berger: mostly "traditional" technique, but the information on gear basics is informative. Karen has a good writing style; you might also enjoy her book, Hiking Light Handbook, which deals with "mainstream" ultralighting (as opposed to "bleeding edge" ultralight.)

2. Hiking and Backpacking: Essential Skills, Equipment, and Safety, by Victoria Logue. Another good basic text, mostly on "traditional" technique. A little longer than Berger, but still not overly thick.

Now, if you really want to know about the nuts and bolts (and stitches, and foams, and fabrics) of backpacking, and are willing to plow through 500 - 800 pages, try The Complete Walker IV (Colin Fletcher & Chip Rawlins) or The Backpacker's Handbook (Chris Townsend.) These two books are classics. Both treat "mainstream" ultralight pretty thoroughly, as part of the whole spectrum of backpacking technique. Both are about as exhaustive as anything you'll find when it comes to talking about fabrics, materials, and construction of backpacking gear and how to use it in a variety of conditions. At some point, you really should read one or both - but it may be overkill for just getting started.

I hope I haven't misread your skill level here; if you've already read some or all of these, that's great. I certainly don't intend to discourage you from asking your questions, but it does seem like most of them would be more appropriately placed in the Beginner's section right now.

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#90764 - 02/20/08 11:51 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Glenn]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
All good reads being suggestted by Glenn, Aceatc. I've read them and more, actually have quite a library that I have loaned out for years to local Scouts.

Once you have a firm knowldege of the basics; the questions you ask will become more based in the gear you are using. I'm not speaking of intricate knowldege of fabrics, weights, strengths, I'm talking basics that every Scout will know from actual experience.

Before I put up my previous post I asked 12 Scouts, "What are the various numbers 550, 650, 700 in reference to with regard to sleeping bags?" all but one answered, "The fill power of the down used as the insulation". So, yes, I'm being harsh, and it's for a good reason. If you venture forth into the backcountry with Internet 'knowledge', vs real time practice, you may put yourself and those who have to come get you into a situation of risk. I worked SAR for many years and the last thing I want to hear about is 'one of our family' from here having to be rescued <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#90765 - 02/20/08 10:24 PM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Glenn]
aceatc Offline
member

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 109
Loc: WA, auburn
Oh, I forgot there was a beginner's section. With a basic question like this I would have put in there, whoopsie.

I have a basic knowledge of camping mostly from using very bad gear that cost next to nothing and spending some sleepless,cold, and wet nights up in the mountains thinking this wasn't so bad. I have a bunch of boy scout friends who were raised the exact same way. We've never even thought to look on the internet for anything about camping only until about half a year ago. So, for about half a year I've been getting into what the modern backpacker brings along and so forth...

I don't have time to read, but I should just find that 500-800page book and give it to one of my friends. They can read a book like that in a couple days. I have no idea how. I read rather slow.

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#90766 - 02/20/08 10:38 PM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Glenn]
demo Offline
member

Registered: 04/07/04
Posts: 221
Loc: Arkansan displaced in the PNW
after getting the basics, I would suggest the following:

1. Allen & Mike's Really Cool Backpackin' Book (O'Bannon and Clelland)
2. Lighten Up! (Ladigin and Clelland)

read them in that order <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Hike Arkansas! and Hike it All!

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#90767 - 02/21/08 05:04 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: aceatc]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 654
Loc: Upstate NY
Check out the books by Cliff Jacobson.

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#90768 - 02/21/08 05:39 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: demo]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I agree. they're both excellent books. The only reasons I didn't include them were that they don't have a lot of basic information about gear features and construction, and I wasn't sure if ACEATC's inclinations were toward ultralight or not.

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#90769 - 02/21/08 05:42 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: aceatc]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
"I have a basic knowledge of camping mostly from using very bad gear that cost next to nothing and spending some sleepless,cold, and wet nights up in the mountains thinking this wasn't so bad."

Welcome to the club. That's pretty much how we all started out - and look how we turned out! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#90770 - 02/21/08 09:23 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Glenn]
aceatc Offline
member

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 109
Loc: WA, auburn
Nice to know I'm not alone.


The real shock to my system was when I found this forum and everyone was telling me get this and get that, money money money. My friends and myself are used to using only what we have at hand (nothing else!) and nothing lightweight or even conventional by most backpacker's standards.

Since my friends have talked to me about half a year ago (when I joined this forum) they have spent so much money on camping :-) Oh well, good thing about camping is most of the stuff is practical enough to be used outside of the mountains.

.... if you live in the forest that is. :P

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#90771 - 02/21/08 09:50 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: aceatc]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Aceatc go over to the MYOG Make Your Own Gear Forum here and look at all the threads on items you need. Things do not have to cost alot to be functional camping as you know. Aluminum works as well as titanium cooking your meals, so right there you save $100's on your gear.

You need to be safe from, at a minimum, hypothermia, if nothing else. Start with a nice warm sleeping bag for your area, then a simple tent. You'll be warm and dry, 2 crucial points in camping. Dressing appropriately will help you be safe also.

I chastize you from the point of having zipped up many a body bag of people who thought they were ok with what they had.

Get some of the mentioned titels and read as slow as you have to in order to understand the material you are reading. There's no race to finish a good book, especially one that may save your life from the knowledge gained. Campout in your yard with a friend or two to practice what you read before heading into the woods. Out there is the last place you want to find your skills lacking <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> JOIN your local Scout Troop, if you don't have the money I'll mail a check to the Scoutmaster myself <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#90772 - 02/21/08 09:55 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Earthling]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
> Aluminum works as well as titanium cooking your meals, so right there you
> save $100's on your gear.

I use one .85L MSR titanium kettle, cost about $35. Hundreds?

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#90773 - 02/21/08 10:55 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Hector]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Yes, I've seen folks spend hundreds on ti cooksets, add up a few SnowPeak Ti sets and you have hundreds my friend.

An aluminum cookset will run him $15, less at a yard sale, even less if he goes to a Scout yard sale <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#90774 - 02/21/08 11:08 AM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Earthling]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
"...add up a few SnowPeak Ti sets..."

Yeah, tell me about it! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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#90775 - 02/21/08 02:28 PM Re: What's the difference here? [Re: Earthling]
aceatc Offline
member

Registered: 07/24/07
Posts: 109
Loc: WA, auburn
I'm fine with my gear, no worries there. I have or have made about everything I need. The things that I *want* I can't very well make. Like a down sleeping bag.

Even before I found this forum I camped safe enough to where my friends and I could survive ... comfort just took a back seat. When I camp now I'm warm and comfortable, but not very lightweight. Much better than before though.


I'm just still learning up on the new age things and such to make myself more efficient. I got safety covered.

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