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#89246 - 02/06/08 07:05 PM water filter cross-over
blazer209 Offline
member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: California/central
Last few years I've switched over to ultra-light mentality.One bulky item that remains in my pack is my Katadin Filter.Thinking about switching over to a MSR Miox.Anyone have an opinion on this thing, or maybe an alternative?Appreciate any feedback.

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#89247 - 02/06/08 08:01 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: blazer209]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Save your money.

Micropur tablets (one tablet per quart or liter) can do absolutely everything that MIOX can do -- and just as well and just as fast. No worries about circuitry failure or running out of salt or battery...

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#89248 - 02/06/08 09:54 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: blazer209]
Ecrow Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 85
Loc: N. New Mexico
Ben is right, portable aqua also kills everything, leaves no taste, is small and light. Leave all of those pounds at home.

Ecrow
_________________________
Ecrow
Live to tell.

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#89249 - 02/06/08 10:19 PM water filter cross-over> The NEXT step [Re: blazer209]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Well, I've gone from a PUR filter (now Katadyn) to Katadyn chlorine dioxide tablets and now I'm going to a SteriPen UV treatment W/ chlorine dioxide tabs as a back-up.

To me chlorine dioxide tabs are far too slow. UV treatment is much faster even with several bottles being used to fill a hydration bag.

Conversely, UV treatment can be used for one or two bottles for immediate use and Chlorine dioxide tabs for a hydration bladder to be used in an hour ot two after treatment. Either way I think we'll be carrying both methods of treatment if we're smart.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#89250 - 02/06/08 10:21 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: blazer209]
speyguy Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Portland, OR
If you're still into filters the new MSR HyperFlow looks good and weighs in at 7.4 oz. They are not quite out yet, but it's getting close. I'm thinking I may get one. However, I used Aqua Mira for the first time last year and liked the simplicity and the fact that there was no pumping.

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#89251 - 02/07/08 05:42 AM Re: water filter cross-over> The NEXT step [Re: 300winmag]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1726
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I'll second 300WM's recommendation. I used a Steripen adventurer with Katadyn Micropur chlorine dioxide as backup for all of last year; probably a total of 30 days in the field. I had no problems with either circuitry, battery failure or GI distress. The Steripen weighs 3.6 oz with batteries and the batteries will last through at least 40 liters of water by my count. Extra batteries weigh about an ounce. The water you treat has to be pretty clear or the UV is much less effective; I use a coffee filter if necessary and if the water is really murky (not too uncommon in Arizona) then I go ahead and treat with the Micropur as a follow-up. The thing I like about the Steripen is that there is no swimming-pool-water taste when you use it.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#89252 - 02/07/08 08:25 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: speyguy]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
Good find. 7.4oz and 3L/min are so neat <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />!
However it won’t remove chemicals from the water (my fear <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) like their claimed MiniWorks or SweetWater.
-Barry

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#89253 - 02/07/08 09:12 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: blazer209]
blazer209 Offline
member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: California/central
Thanks for the great input.Yeh,my only reluctance has been due to time it takes for chemical methods to work.That's one reasons I've stuck with a simple filter for so long.You pump then drink.I'll definitly be trying these suggestions out.Thanks again.

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#89254 - 02/07/08 10:50 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: blazer209]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
They are different systems all together.

If you just want water that's biologically clean then the tabs are ok.

If you are unsure, or know there are chemicals in the water source, then you want a filter IME.

Even the SteriPen,et al do not remove chemicals, so keep this in mind, depending upon where you tread on YOUR trips <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

The weight trade is also a health trade IME.
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#89255 - 02/07/08 03:44 PM Re: water filter cross-over - Siphon FIlter [Re: blazer209]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Blazer, buy the Katadyn Siphon filter. It's a quality medical grade ceramic cartridge with a plastic tube. It will filter 5000 to 20,000 gallons using a 0.2 micron ceramic filter at 1.40 gallons per hour (3 oz per minute). Weighs 16 oz. You will be able to filter enough water for cooking, drinking, washing dishes, and clothes and even bathing if your raw water supply is questionable. I built one of these about 16 years ago and it still works perfect. This unit will offer you a back up water supply for your home too.

Be very wary of the units, such as the Katadyn Camp filter, that only use a charcoal and/or string filter. They cannot deliver safe water, just filtered water. Gravity filters last 30 times longer than a pump filter.

When you get in camp, start your filter and you'll have water ready before dinner is done... with NO pumping. I use a gallon zip lock bag as my raw water supply raised above my Nalgene, or above my 2 1/2 gallon collapsible UL plastic jug at the bottom to catch my water. You can clean the filter with a scrubby pad in about two minutes, and that is not needed often. No moving parts to break either! Brum

http://products.katadyn.com/brands-and-products/produkte/Endurance_Series_23/Katadyn_Siphon_26.html
_________________________



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#89256 - 02/07/08 09:48 PM Re: water filter cross-over - Siphon FIlter [Re: Brumfield]
blazer209 Offline
member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: California/central
Thanks for the info.Since posting this I have had some change of thought.I never really had concern about anything but living organism type contamination.Wasn't really thinking about chemical type dangers.Thanks again for the input.My eyes are a bit more opened.

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#89257 - 02/08/08 07:26 AM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Ecrow]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Ben is right, portable aqua also kills everything, leaves no taste, is small and light. Leave all of those pounds at home. Ecrow


Yes, Ben and Ecrow, Katadyn portable aqua tablets and all other chlorine based chemical treatments, or the Miox "new" (actually 100 year old) process of creating chlorine from salt electrolysis, can be used to kill some bacteria, some viruses, and many harmful pathogens. However, if no additional protection is provided against the bacteria that is attached to particles suspended in your raw water, then the limited efficiency of inactivation by chlorine will attribute to the continued presence of bacterial aggregates in all types of suspended particles. Particle-attached bacteria are universally more resistant to disinfection than are suspended bacteria.

To put it more simply, the particle-attached bacteria do not die as quickly, if at all, with chlorine treatment. You really should remove the particles and the micro size critters attached to the particles, not just kill some of them and then drink them down. They don't just simply dissipate into thin air when you chlorinate them, they are still there, and the now dead "bodies" of the bacteria and viruses are going into your system. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I use solar treatment when I can by placing my raw water in gallon zip lock bags in direct sunlight. Ultraviolet (UV) light destroys DNA and thereby prevents microbes from reproducing. That's all the SteraPen does, it adds UV rays to your water supply.

After UV treatment, ceramic filtering, and chlorine dioxide treatment of the water, I then carry 32 ounces of my water in a clear plastic bottle on top of my pack so it's exposed to the sun's UV rays most of the day. I always carry two 32 ounce bottles of ready-to-drink water. One in the pack and one on top receiving continued UV treatment, and rotate them out as I treat a new water supply.

Also remember that chlorine based treatment alone does not remove any harmful chemicals or heavy metals. To me, weight saving does not win out over safe drinking water. I cut down on weight where it won't harm me. EG: I changed out my leather belt with the metal buckle for a nylon webbing one with a plastic clip and saved 7 ounces. That alone is half the weight of my ceramic filter. Brum
_________________________



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#89258 - 02/08/08 09:37 AM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Brumfield]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Brumfield:

The above chlorine dioxide products all have concentration and treatment time that take into account the "clumping / particle-attachment" of baddies.

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#89259 - 02/08/08 04:51 PM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Brumfield]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:

To put it more simply, the particle-attached bacteria do not die as quickly, if at all, with chlorine treatment. You really should remove the particles and the micro size critters attached to the particles, not just kill some of them and then drink them down. They don't just simply dissipate into thin air when you chlorinate them, they are still there, and the now dead "bodies" of the bacteria and viruses are going into your system. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

After UV treatment, ceramic filtering, and chlorine dioxide treatment of the water, I then carry 32 ounces of my water in a clear plastic bottle on top of my pack so it's exposed to the sun's UV rays most of the day. I always carry two 32 ounce bottles of ready-to-drink water. One in the pack and one on top receiving continued UV treatment, and rotate them out as I treat a new water supply.


I think you'll find that almost all plastic blocks UV quite well - the SteriPen in fact depends on this in order to prevent burning you with UV light. So, the plastic bag in sunlight doesn't do anything other than warm the water and degrade the plastic a little bit faster.

Also, the SteriPen suffers from the same problems that chlorine does - bacteria attached to large particles can be shielded from light. It also has taken this into account as the chlorine dioxide products have, as long as the water isn't too cloudy.

Finally, the dead bacteria isn't going to hurt you. Viruses with disrupted genomes won't do much either. It is a bit creepy though. Just a bit of extra protein and carbohydrates though ;-) Bacteria that produces persistent toxins (such as botulism) aren't likely to be in our wild drinking sources.

I like my SteriPen and I use chlorine tablets as an alternative, just thought I might comment on this.
_________________________
- John

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#89260 - 02/08/08 06:51 PM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: Xelif]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Xelif wrote:
"I think you'll find that almost all plastic blocks UV quite well - the SteriPen in fact depends on this in order to prevent burning you with UV light. So, the plastic bag in sunlight doesn't do anything other than warm the water and degrade the plastic a little bit faster."

Brumfield wrote:

Sorry, plastic does not block UV rays. However, plastic coated with Nanoscale titanium dioxide particles will block UV. My plastic drink bottles that I use on the trail to UV treat my water with are not coated with Nanoscale titanium dioxide particles. The SteraPen's plastic design is for strength and weight savings, not to block the UV rays. Unless, of course, the SteraPen's plastic handle area is coated with (everybody say it out loud) Nanoscale titanium dioxide particles.

I learned about the UV treatment while studying under Harry Lee Westmoreland Jr.s Living Water International. I have certification in water well drilling and multiple purification techniques of raw and contaminated water for third world country inhabitants. All part of my volunteer missionary field training that I took upon myself so I could be of use to people where ever I go. I'm a Christian, but not a flat liner, as some would mistakenly think.

Living Water International web site: http://www.water.cc

Here ya go, Xelif , here's one of many articles regarding UV treatment of water in simple plastic jugs. This particular article is taken from:

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/wsh0207/en/index4.html

"Solar treatment by combined UV and thermal effects

Treatment to control waterborne microbial contaminants by exposure to sunlight in clear vessels that allows the combined germicidal effects of both UV radiation and heat also has been developed, evaluated and put into field practice (Acra et al., 1984; Conroy et al., 1996; 1996; 1999; Joyce et al., 1996; McGuigugan et al., 1998; 1999; Sommer et al., 1997; Wegelin and Sommer, 1998; Wegelin et al., 1994). A number of different solar treatment systems have been described, but one of the technically simplest and most practical and economical is the SODIS system developed by scientists at the Swiss Federal Agency for Environmental Science and Technology (EAWAG) and its many collaborators and partners.

The SODIS system consists of three basic steps: (1) removing solids from highly turbid (>30 NTU) water by settling or filtration, if necessary, (2) placing low turbidity (<30 NTU) water in clear plastic bottles of 1-2 liter volume (usually discarded beverage bottles and preferably painted black on one side), and (3) aerating (oxygenating) the water by vigorous shaking in contact with air, and (4) exposing the filled, aerated bottles to full sunlight for about 5 hours (or longer if only part sunlight). The water is exposed to UV radiation in sunlight, primarily UV-A and it becomes heated; both effects contribute to the inactivation of waterborne microbes. The system is suitable for treating small volumes of water (<10L), especially if the water has relatively low turbidity (<30 NTU).

Clear plastic bottles are considered preferable by some workers over glass because they are lighter, less likely to break, and less costly. Bottles made of polyethylene terephthlate (PET) are preferred to those made of polyvinylchloride (PVC), other plastics and most types of glass because they are less likely to leach harmful constituents into the water. In addition, they are lightweight, relatively unbreakable, chemically stable and not likely to impart tastes and odors to the water." (end article)

Brumfield wrote:
Also from: http://www.ciwem.org/policy/policies/chlorine_disinfection_of_water_supplies.asp

6. Generally, viruses are more resistant to chlorine than bacteria.

7. Harmful organisms can be shielded by particulates, therefore chlorination should be linked to a low water turbidity standard. This may require pre-treatment (filtration) processes if source waters are turbid.
________________________________________________________________

Xelif wrote: "Finally, the dead bacteria isn't going to hurt you. Viruses with disrupted genomes won't do much either. It is a bit creepy though. Just a bit of extra protein and carbohydrates though ;-)

Brumfield wrote: I prefer good Tequila with a dead Mescal worm over dead bacteria, but... each to his own favorite drink. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Xelif wrote: Bacteria that produces persistent toxins (such as botulism) aren't likely to be in our wild drinking sources."

Brumfield wrote: Unless you live where there are zero birds... ya better look here:

http://www.google.com/search?q=botulism+in+water&btnG=Search&hl=en

And from wild life: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&a...G=Google+Search

Xelif wrote: I like my SteriPen and I use chlorine tablets as an alternative, just thought I might comment on this.

I use the BIG free SteraPen in the sky, (no batteries required) and I use chlorine dioxide too, but I can't help but wonder why quality water filter companies always mention that one of their filter's main purpose is to REMOVE chlorine? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> So I chlorinate before filtering now. Brum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________



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#89261 - 02/09/08 02:55 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: blazer209]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
It's true the benefits tablets have are that they are initially cheaper and weigh less for a typical week long trip, but...

I like my MIOX for a few reasons. One, the unit has never failed me. This is not to say that it won't ever fail, but I haven't had problems with it and I use it as my exclusive water treatment system when backpacking.

I believe that it does add an anti-microbial coating to the bottles, pots, and cups I use. I always add a small dose of MIOX when cleaning dishes. This is an added benefit over drops or pills. Since treating my Camelbak reservoir with MIOX it has stopped developing mold because I failed to let it dry out.

I've used it as a topical agent to treat minor wounds (abrasion injuries). It has effectively halted any infection from appearing in several injuries I've had on the trail. I actually carry it in my mtn bike pack because it works so well for me in case of a crash (and to treat water if I run out).

It doesn't taste bad when the proper dose is added and I've never gotten sick from backcountry water.

I also use it in the winter and believe it is one of the best solutions for winter water use. Instead of boiling water after melting the snow, I simply melt the snow to liquid and then add a dose of MIOX. I also add MIOX to my water bottle as I'm hiking and add snow along the way. This works very well for me and makes treating water a breeze in the winter. MIOX is not effected by super cold water. It will work in any temperature.

At 3 oz., it really isn't that big of an issue to carry. Yes, it's heavier than pills, but the benefits for me have proven it's worth it's weight. I've used pills and drops both and simply like using the MIOX better. When I add it to the water it disappears immediately and it is very visual to me that the solution mixes in better than a pill. I also think it makes the water taste less of chemical, again, if the proper dose is administered. Too often I hear people say they can taste the chemical or MIOX makes the water taste bad. Most of the time this is due to people putting in too much chemical or shaking the unit more than is needed resulting in too much salt saturation.

There are many who think the MIOX is over complicated and perhaps even overkill for a solo, ultralight backpacker. It is one of the best, and most overlooked, solutions for backcountry soloists in my opinion. To disregard it is to do yourself a disservice. Are there cheaper solutions? Yes. Are there lighter solutions? Yes. However, there isn't another water-treatment product that can also treat containers and be used as a topical agent. Nor one that does as much water as fast (compared to pumps) without worrying about running out of pills or drops. This makes it quite unique and worth considering.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#89262 - 02/09/08 03:09 PM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Xelif]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
Quote:

To put it more simply, the particle-attached bacteria do not die as quickly, if at all, with chlorine treatment. You really should remove the particles and the micro size critters attached to the particles, not just kill some of them and then drink them down. They don't just simply dissipate into thin air when you chlorinate them, they are still there, and the now dead "bodies" of the bacteria and viruses are going into your system. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

After UV treatment, ceramic filtering, and chlorine dioxide treatment of the water, I then carry 32 ounces of my water in a clear plastic bottle on top of my pack so it's exposed to the sun's UV rays most of the day. I always carry two 32 ounce bottles of ready-to-drink water. One in the pack and one on top receiving continued UV treatment, and rotate them out as I treat a new water supply.


I think you'll find that almost all plastic blocks UV quite well - the SteriPen in fact depends on this in order to prevent burning you with UV light. So, the plastic bag in sunlight doesn't do anything other than warm the water and degrade the plastic a little bit faster.

Also, the SteriPen suffers from the same problems that chlorine does - bacteria attached to large particles can be shielded from light. It also has taken this into account as the chlorine dioxide products have, as long as the water isn't too cloudy.

Finally, the dead bacteria isn't going to hurt you. Viruses with disrupted genomes won't do much either. It is a bit creepy though. Just a bit of extra protein and carbohydrates though ;-) Bacteria that produces persistent toxins (such as botulism) aren't likely to be in our wild drinking sources.

I like my SteriPen and I use chlorine tablets as an alternative, just thought I might comment on this.


Felix, do a search with google for SODIS and you'll find out you are wrong about solar sterilization <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It's been in practice many years and is a recognized way to treat water.
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#89263 - 02/09/08 03:19 PM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Earthling]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I just noticed Barry Brumfiled inserted Sodis in his post, does'nt hurt to know we BOTH studied with LWI <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> been there, done that Brum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jason Livy if you are in touch with the Platypus folks please find out for us if they know of SODIS, and if the Platy water bags are usuable in this regard. If so, Platypus might think of using this to their advantage in advertising their product; thus helping themselves and being supporters of the SODIS projects <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Brum, you are a fountain of water knowledge <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#89264 - 02/10/08 12:01 AM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: Brumfield]
billk Offline
member

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 1196
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Quote:
Sorry, plastic does not block UV rays.


It depends on the plastic. Polycarbonate blocks UV fairly well. PET would be the choice for any type of solar water-treater.

It's my understanding that Giardia are not particularly affected by UV-A or UV-B, but would require UV-C radiation, which I think the Steri-pen must generate. There isn't much UV-C in sunlight by the time it reaches the ground.

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#89265 - 02/10/08 09:33 AM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: Brumfield]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Alright, now we're getting into a good discussion! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm certainly familiar with using sunlight to disinfect water. I was just under the very strong impression that UV rays are blocked by most plastic. Mostly because of this off the Steripen site and from a little bit of UV experiments on the lab:

"UV-C will not pass through most materials. Drinking containers made from glass, ceramic, metal, and nearly all plastics block UV-C transmission. Also, the underside of the air/water interface in a water container acts as a very effective reflector for UV-C. As a result, when SteriPEN™’s lamp is immersed in virtually any drinking vessel, the UV-C is well contained. Note that SteriPEN™’s water sensors prevent it from operating unless the lamp is completely immersed.

While very few materials are transparent to UV-C, there are a small number of uncommon materials that are. These include optical grade quartz (the SteriPEN™ lamp material) and a few fluoropolymers in the Teflon family – both unlikely materials to be used for drinking containers."

http://www.steripen.com/faq.html

-- I am discussing specifically UV-C, apparently. So my source tells me at least <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Your source speaks specifically of UV-A. This is an interesting divide.

Also, your source states the heating effects of the sun would be enough to deactivate 99.9% of organisms, leaving the effect of the UV (in my mind) somewhat up in the air. The UV has a contributory effect but is not the main sterilizing action from what I read, as long as the water peaked over 50 degrees C.

As far as botulism - it's only a concern with stagnant water. I don't drink from stagnant water. However, I realize that I'm in the minority when I tap from clear-running, non-stagnant, highly oxygenated mountain stream water <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If I had to drink from jungle pools, aie!
_________________________
- John

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#89266 - 02/10/08 09:44 AM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: Xelif]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
I did a little more research and UV transmission is an entirely mixed bag. Acrylic as stated blocks most UV light, and the % of UV light absorbed by plastics such as polyethylene depends on the thickness, the coating, and the purity of the plastic. It DOES absorb and refract some UV light, the question is, how much? From what was linked earlier, the UV doesn't even need to penetrate - the water just needs to heat up. Also, which wavelengths are blocked best? The SteriPen folk believe that UV-C doesn't escape the container.

(edit) I really wish I hadn't graduated now, since I used a transmittance/absorbance machine almost every day in the lab and I could quickly and easily measure all of this data. Anyone else work in a lab?

(double edit now) You might have misunderstood me with the SteriPen - The Pen says you won't burn your skin or eyes from UV rays because the rays stop at the limit of the water bottle, not at any part of the Pen itself. The concern is that by staring at the lamp, while it's operating, you're giving yourself a NASTY UV burn. If plastic transmitted UV entirely, this is a problem. It either means that the plastic doesn't transmit the Pen's UV, or that the Pen's UV is just too low power to burn you.


Edited by Xelif (02/10/08 09:59 AM)
_________________________
- John

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#89267 - 02/10/08 10:00 AM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: Xelif]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Hey, Xelif, good research, I've copied your info to my Water Purification folder. Thanks for sharing it here, and please keep us updated on what you come up with regarding proper or improper containers for UV treatment. I will pass your info on to the staff at Living Waters International. Peoples health and even their lives are at stake in the third world countries where every purification process must be made available to them asap.

Ya see that's why I like this group of people, nobody gets upset when you share, discuss, (or even disagree over) knowledge. In contrast, I'm in an ongoing battle over at HikingForums.net over whether you should carry a 44 magnum or a chili pepper spray in known bear and lion country. Seems kinda cut and dry to me, but some people just don't like guns to the point of being silly about it. And don't ya'll go start on me over here about it too! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Brum
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#89268 - 02/10/08 10:08 AM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Earthling]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
Jason Livy if you are in touch with the Platypus folks please find out for us if they know of SODIS, and if the Platy water bags are usuable in this regard. If so, Platypus might think of using this to their advantage in advertising their product; thus helping themselves and being supporters of the SODIS projects <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I'm tempted to email SteriPen too, since they should have tested all of the common containers with regard to FULL UV transmittance (Not just their stated UV-C on the website). The actual usability of our common drinking containers for solar disinfection - this is a really important question, or at least I want to know the answer!

Thank you Brum for starting this discussion, it's been interesting so far.
_________________________
- John

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#89269 - 02/10/08 10:36 AM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: Brumfield]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2801
Loc: NorCal
You're probably familiar with these folks:

http://www.solarcookers.org/

A really neat organization with an important mission.
_________________________
--Rick

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#89270 - 02/10/08 11:23 AM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: Brumfield]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
Hey, Xelif, good research, I've copied your info to my Water Purification folder. Thanks for sharing it here, and please keep us updated on what you come up with regarding proper or improper containers for UV treatment. I will pass your info on to the staff at Living Waters International. Peoples health and even their lives are at stake in the third world countries where every purification process must be made available to them asap.

Ya see that's why I like this group of people, nobody gets upset when you share, discuss, (or even disagree over) knowledge.


I'm glad you're bringing it up with people who are in a position to use the information. (Slow-sand biofilters originally got me interested in water purification!)

I'm afraid all I did was muddy the waters, so to speak. I read the SODIS site itself, which has a wealth of referenced pdf files I'm just sinking my teeth into. First off, don't doubt the in-the-field SODIS tests that prove the method works. It's pretty convincing.

UV wavelengths extend from 400nm to, well, 1nm. UV-C is the shortest wavelength under discussion, and it's the best at disrupting DNA, etc. It's also, interestingly, blocked by ozone such that we don't see much at the surface. That's why the ozone layer is useful, and holes in it less useful. The ozone is at least partly generated via the energy released by UV interactions in the upper atmosphere.

The SteriPen supposedly pumps out primarily UV-C. Sunlight that reaches us is 98.7% UV-A, from 320nm to 400nm. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet)

To answer the question I originally brought up: None of our facts are wrong!

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046%2Fj.1365-2672.1998.00455.x

Page 2 has a depiction of UV absorption. The relevant information is that PET bottles absorb everything BELOW UV-A light. That means they absorb all the UV wavelengths that get soaked up by the ozone layer <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> In fact, almost all plastics do absorb UV-C light, just like the SteriPen states, and transmit UV-A light, like the SODIS site states.

SODIS states all plastics have, to some degree, UV absorbers such as plasticizers and dyes in them. PET bottles are best as you already know - and they've looked at the UV absorbance issue to some extent. For example, they warn that the older and more damaged the bottles are, the less UV gets through. That is, perhaps, the real issue with UV light and containers. I know that UV is the primary degrader of plastic and will eventually trash almost anything plastic left out in the sun, once it overwhelms any built-in dyes or absorbers.

Again, I'm really, really glad you brought all this up. I learned quite a bit - I just hope I'm managing to convey this in a halfway coherent form. This too is why I like this site, we pleasantly discuss things without rancor!

I'm going to have to think about how wonderful this method of disinfection is <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> perhaps even lighter than the lightest ultralighter's dream <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (don't tell them over on BPL)
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- John

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#89271 - 02/10/08 11:46 AM A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: blazer209]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
This thread, because of its health importance, has garnered a lot of attention.

Recently I e-mailed SteriPen asking them if a bottle covered with Mylar reflective film would help the sterilization process. No answer yet. I think, based on direct observation, that we all know SOME UV rays pass thru Lexan & other clear plastics. Otherwise we would not see the purple light of the SteriPen's lamp. Correct?

So, reflecting that light back may help to kill bacteria & viruses "hiding" behind & within micro particles of debris. SteriPen requires swirling the water to give the UV rays a chance to kill any "hiding" microorganisms.

Any SCIENTIFIC info out there to support my "reflectivity theory"? (i.e. tests that can be replicated many times by different investigators with the same results.)

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#89272 - 02/10/08 11:57 AM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: 300winmag]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:

Recently I e-mailed SteriPen asking them if a bottle covered with Mylar reflective film would help the sterilization process. No answer yet. I think, based on direct observation, that we all know SOME UV rays pass thru Lexan & other clear plastics. Otherwise we would not see the purple light of the SteriPen's lamp. Correct?

So, reflecting that light back may help to kill bacteria & viruses "hiding" behind & within micro particles of debris. SteriPen requires swirling the water to give the UV rays a chance to kill any "hiding" microorganisms.


This is a good idea, but the problem is that we don't see UV light. What you're seeing is some visible light that the lamp emits, according to SteriPen, in order to let us know it is indeed working. So, reflecting the visible light back in won't change the sterilization. Remember, the primary action of the Pen is via UV-C light, and that wavelength is absorbed by plastic.

I'm curious how much UVA and UVB the Pen emits, as that might go through the plastic. (edit) Don't worry about that being a problem, though, I doubt a battery-powered lamp could emit enough energy to burn you, through a bottle full of water <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Xelif (02/10/08 12:01 PM)
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#89273 - 02/10/08 12:22 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: Xelif]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
"X",

OK, if the UV light is all absorbed by the plastic bottle then would an INTERIOR reflective layer be better? Perhaps the stainless water bottles REI sells may be the way to go. Anything that can increase the SteriPen's effectiveness would likely help us.

I think we need tests on this before we say SteriPen knows all.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#89274 - 02/10/08 12:40 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: 300winmag]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
"X",

OK, if the UV light is all absorbed by the plastic bottle then would an INTERIOR reflective layer be better? Perhaps the stainless water bottles REI sells may be the way to go. Anything that can increase the SteriPen's effectiveness would likely help us.

I think we need tests on this before we say SteriPen knows all.


Yes, an interior reflective layer would increase the lifespan of the UV light. Stainless steel bottles would probably increase the effectiveness and drop the required treatment time.

On another note, why do you feel the SteriPen needs to be more effective? I'm fundamentally a skeptic (edit: by nature) myself. I've read over their lab results and, having done similar work in the lab myself, I was convinced right there. Their tests were done properly and could be replicated by anyone who can dilute + plate out bacteria on agar plates and count them. (Harder than it sounds, I don't miss microbiology work at all.) I've read the lab-work of some pretty questionable products and the difference is obvious.

It's also not just their research - there is a very, very large body of research on using UV light and sunlight to disinfect water in general. I'm talking thousands of lab-hours and beyond that in work-hours, not to mention all the people relying on it to get clean water.

If you have more specific questions, the research exists to answer them. How do we know the report isn't falsified? Well, I had written a four-paragraph summary of why scientific research is valid. I removed it in the interests of everyone's eyeballs, and if you really want to know, I'll tell you later <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(edit) The beauty of science is that if you really doubt the SteriPen's claims, you can test them yourself or pay to test them, then trumpet your results all over the news.


Edited by Xelif (02/10/08 12:49 PM)
_________________________
- John

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#89275 - 02/10/08 12:50 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: 300winmag]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
This thread, because of its health importance, has garnered a lot of attention.

Recently I e-mailed SteriPen asking them if a bottle covered with Mylar reflective film would help the sterilization process. No answer yet. I think, based on direct observation, that we all know SOME UV rays pass thru Lexan & other clear plastics. Otherwise we would not see the purple light of the SteriPen's lamp. Correct?

So, reflecting that light back may help to kill bacteria & viruses "hiding" behind & within micro particles of debris. SteriPen requires swirling the water to give the UV rays a chance to kill any "hiding" microorganisms.

Any SCIENTIFIC info out there to support my "reflectivity theory"? (i.e. tests that can be replicated many times by different investigators with the same results.)

Eric


Yes, there are articles mentioning reflection of the sun's rays to enhance the UV sterilization process. I have not seen reflection used within the actual water container, but I've seen it suggested to place your water container on a metal roof, white sand, light colored rock, or any other reflective surface you can find. Just like a mirror behind a candle will multiply the light output, so does a shinny surface multiply, at least some, the sun's UV.. I carry a rolled up sheet of aluminum foil to use under my bottles in camp on cloudy days. I also shake the bottle at least once during the UV process. Maybe we should start a post in which we discuss in detail our process of gathering and sterilizing our drinking water in the field. Brum
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#89276 - 02/10/08 01:52 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? WOW! [Re: Xelif]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Wow! What an informative and VERY interesting topic this has all turned out to be! See what you got started here, blazer... good job! It's a pleasure to be allowed to take part in your forum. Brum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
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#89277 - 02/10/08 04:19 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? WOW! [Re: Brumfield]
blazer209 Offline
member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: California/central
True, I'm some what astonished by the amount of feedback this topic has generated.

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#89278 - 02/10/08 10:47 PM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: billk]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Better mention a caveat about SODIS, since it's come up as an alternative to chemicals. SODIS is not recommended at latitudes higher than - I believe it was 40-degrees. At higher latitudes the intensity of sunlight may be insufficient to guarantee sterility in any reasonable time span.

Now I gotta say one thing about this method that perhaps some don't care about, but I do. I wouldn't use SODIS unless every other form of water treatment I possess was used up/broken. It takes too long (6 hours at North American latitudes), the water ends up warm or even hot (yech), and water high in organics ends up smelling like a swamp (breakdown of sulphur-bearing compounds). The people that this method is targeted at may be used to this, but my overly-civilized palate prefers water that lacks those qualities. I never liked iodine or chlorine either, so these newer technologies of chlorine dioxide, MIOX, and UV are the greatest thing since sliced bread to me.

FWIW, I see how well UV sterilization works in my fish tank. I have ZERO bacterial/algal activity in the water. My fish have been disease free for over two years. I'd trust it implicitly as long as the water is clear. For cloudy or brown (tannin bearing) water I'd fall back on chlorine dioxide or MIOX.

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#89279 - 02/11/08 08:08 AM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: Brumfield]
coyotemaster Offline
member

Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 294
Loc: Arizona
Brum, your thoughts on this please

Clear plastic bottles made from standard... for six hours

When I check the bottom of a two liter pop bottle it says PETE, which makes it seem really nice & cheap for this purpose.

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#89280 - 02/11/08 09:33 AM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: NiytOwl]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
NiytOwl, I think you bring up some very good points. I was mostly interested to learn that such a low-tech method works, and suggested it for backpacking more tongue-in-cheek. I'd only use it as a last backup myself <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (or as part of a system like Brum) but I prefer to imagine the chaos it might introduce on some of the more extreme sites <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to look more easily on the thin trickling mountain streams soaking in the sunlight at high altitude, though. Those get UV all day! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Mountain water is sounding better and better... I gotta get out of here!
_________________________
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#89281 - 02/11/08 09:47 AM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Brumfield]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
"After UV treatment, ceramic filtering, and chlorine dioxide treatment of the water, I then carry 32 ounces of my water in a clear plastic bottle on top of my pack so it's exposed to the sun's UV rays most of the day."

Brum, I see that you are doing some serious treatment to your water. I was just curious, are all these steps for just when you are hiking in Mexico, or would you use the same method in the US?

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#89282 - 02/11/08 10:07 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: blazer209]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2742
Loc: California
I have commented on water purification on previous posts. My real question is how do you know if it works? You use any method, and it works. You do not know if it would have been OK without purification. I sure would like to see a real scientific study done. I just think we have gone way overkill on this issue.

There is no question that in most places abroad or in really yucky water anywhere, purification is needed.

I honestly doubt the need to purify water in many of our U.S. mountainous regions. (PS, I am a groundwater geologist and water resource engineer and have attended many conferences on water treatment, so I have a fair knowledge of water quality issues.) Water in the mountains is continuously naturally being recycled and purified.

There is a lot more to this issue than purify or not. Improperly cleaned filters can actually ADD microbes. You carry the thing in your dirty old pack all day! Touch the purified water bottle with your filfthy hands - more germs. With chemical methods, water temperature is critical. I suspect a lot of supposedly "purified water" really is not fully purified but was OK to begin with so you just think your technology is the reason you do not get sick.

Everyone has an immune system that can handle a certain amount of bugs. Everyone's tolerance is different. I take chlorine and iodine tabs and only use them occassionally and have hiked a lot- mountains, coasts and deserts in the continental US for 40 years and never have had problems. I am very careful of my water sources. My immune system seems to be quite hardy. Maybe my eating all that dirt when I was a kid helped!

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#89283 - 02/11/08 01:11 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: wandering_daisy]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6372
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
To know if whatever you're doing to your water really works, you'd have to send samples of both untreated and treated water from a number of sources to a reputable lab for testing. I wonder if anyone has done this? In fact, I wonder if the manufacturers have done this, because I sure haven't found any evidence on their websites that I've looked at. The reason for sampling both untreated and treated water is that you need to find out if the source has anything harmful in it in the first place. Just saying you used xxx to treat your water and you didn't get sick doesn't prove anything. The water may be pure in the first place or you may be immune to whatever is in it.

That being said, I filter my water regardless of source. Some years back, I had a friend get a really nasty case of giardia from a spring in the high Cascades. That was the only place on the trip that he didn't filter his water, because it was coming right out of the hillside.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#89284 - 02/11/08 01:15 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: wandering_daisy]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
Good point wandering daisy. There was this article in the LA times about water contamination in the high mountains

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-os-giardia26jul26

Surprisingly even in areas with denser hikers the water had few microorganisms.

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#89285 - 02/11/08 05:52 PM Re: water filter cross-over - My bugs, your bugs [Re: wandering_daisy]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
wanderingdaisy wrote;
Quote:
I just think we have gone way overkill on this issue.



WanderingDaisy, your points are well taken, your career credentials are admirable, and I appreciate your input. What I have personally found is that strange bugs in water I'm not use to are the ones that make me sick. Perhaps we build up an immunity over time to the bugs in our own water supply, whether it be our own backyard well, our local city or municipal water supply, or even the rivers, lakes, and streams in our immediate area that feed these same wells etc...

I could not drink the tap water flowing up from the volcanic lakes under ground when I first moved here four years ago. I would get stomach cramps with every attempt. Now, after living here these four years, it no longer bothers me. However, if I go to the coastal areas and drink water from the underground volcanic lakes, I get worse stomach cramps than I did here. If I stay a month or so there, and continue to drink the water, the stomach cramps begin to subside with no medical treatment administered.

The locals all swear this village water is good, they use it without filtration or other treatment, and appear to have no visible health problems with it. The villagers 20 miles across the lake say this water in my village is bad, and won't touch it, but drink their own, and visa versa. When we go over there we bring or buy bottled water and they do the same while visiting here. Mexican nationals from around the country will drink their own local water back home, but will not drink any other Mexican water when on vacation away from their own areas. They will even stock up on their local bottled water to carry with them.

So, I guess you're safe drinking your local water as you describe, but I would not be guaranteed to handle it as well while just visiting there. Nor would you do well drinking my water when you first get here. My water filter, chemicals, and UV treatment, protect me when I'm away from the water supply I have adapted to or built up an immunity to.

A good example of just how well water filtration and UV treatment works is the case in which tens of thousands of lives are being saved in the African nations even as I write this. Without water filtration the people of the third world nations are dieing every hour from dehydration, brought on by diarrhea, brought on by drinking unfiltered disease and germ ridden water. The proof of "how do you know it works" is in the well publicized successful results of filtration and UV treatment use taking place in third world countries. Sometimes we just have to trust professional test results as published. Just like you trust that your computerized ABS brakes, that someone designed, built, and promoted as being trustworthy, will not to lock up on those mountain curves.

Be grateful that you have a clean water supply, and lend a hand here in adding to the knowledge base that could, potentially, be used to save lives on a global scale. There are a lot of bright, dedicated, well educated people with an amazing amount of common sense on this forum, please don't dampen their enthusiasm. This very important subject has not even begun to enter the realm of "over kill". Peace, Brum

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#89286 - 02/11/08 07:27 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: OregonMouse]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
To know if whatever you're doing to your water really works, you'd have to send samples of both untreated and treated water from a number of sources to a reputable lab for testing. I wonder if anyone has done this? In fact, I wonder if the manufacturers have done this, because I sure haven't found any evidence on their websites that I've looked at.

That being said, I filter my water regardless of source. Some years back, I had a friend get a really nasty case of giardia from a spring in the high Cascades. That was the only place on the trip that he didn't filter his water, because it was coming right out of the hillside.


Most of the manufacturers link to studies done, and most of the studies are reputable (a counter-example was the "LifeStraw" that popped up and was clearly crap with crap studies.)

SteriPen: http://www.steripen.com/testing.html
They've got the best testing that I've seen. They do more along the lines of EPA testing with real pathogenic organisms.

Potable Aqua has NOTHING, Aqua Mira has ... a ... less than ideal test done by Dr. Ryan Jordan (sound familiar?) proving it kills biofilms, his speciality, but nothing else. I'm not doubting the product efficiency, presumably some other research exists proving chlorine dioxide kills, but here's the 'study'.

http://www.aquamira.com/consumer/aquamira-water-treatment-drops/BPL_2_Efficacy-of-Water.pdf

I'm not even going to go into the filters, etc.

It's easy to test any water purification product in a lab. You lace the water with, ideally, an extremely hardy organism such as certain viruses or spores. You treat the water with product, then pour water onto agar plates (which grow bacteria very well), and see if anything grows. Sterility controls and control samples, etc, are all very important, but that's the basic procedure.

Now, I haven't completely thought this through, but you should be able to test things at home by doing this:
Get two jars half-full of water, dump a bunch of sugar, maybe a bit of starch in, and then seal up one... drop your chlorine tablet in the other one, seal it up, and see which one molds over first <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Variations of this can be performed with other products, with contamination from the air and yourself a huge issue however.

OregonMouse, I made a huge big post in the other forum about giardia and the wild. The general idea is that no, it's not a problem (in North America mountains), and that if your friend caught giardia from a mountain spring, he or she was almost certainly infected by human hygiene issues related to that spring and/or other hikers (ie pollution or cross-contamination).

No manufacturers actually go out and TEST wild water, because most mountain streams in North America are clean. It's not very convincing to publish tests stating your product isn't necessary. There are a few researchers who do it themselves, and the general result from the Sierra is very clean water. (check that other thread for actual links). Beaver Fever should be called Human Fever - beavers catch it from humans!
_________________________
- John

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#89287 - 02/11/08 07:36 PM Re: water filter cross-over - My bugs, your bugs [Re: Brumfield]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
Be grateful that you have a clean water supply, and lend a hand here in adding to the knowledge base that could, potentially, be used to save lives on a global scale.


I think we've got two separate issues here. One, backpacking in the more remote areas of America itself, few water issues are found, despite previous bad press. Two, hundreds of millions if not billions of humans live in reasonable proximity with other humans and have to deal with the lack of centralized, reliable water and sewage systems.

Brum, I'm going to hazard a guess that you deal with the second situation a lot more than I do, for example. For some of us, me namely, the only concern with water purification is when we head out on a trip into terrain quite different from our daily life. I don't bat an eye at my tap water or the tap water across most of the US. It tastes weird, but my body doesn't notice the difference. What you say about the different villages and their water supplies is absolutely -fascinating-.

That said, I'm pretty passionate about water purification both for myself and for those who don't live with a nice sewer and water supply as I do. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
- John

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#89288 - 02/12/08 10:54 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: Xelif]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Quote:
Aqua Mira has ... a ... less than ideal test done by Dr. Ryan Jordan


I'd like to add that while Aqua Mira itself has not received any EPA certification, it DOES produce levels of chlorine dioxide that are comparable to (actually exceed) the EPA dosages recommended for municipalities using chlorine dioxide as their water treatment. I look at this as if Aqua Mira (and MicroPur tablets) are the "generic" version of the name brand. Same dose, same effect.

The only technology I'm surprised is not represented in the outdoor market is ozone. No taste, no smell, and actually leaves the water "fresh" tasting. The water coming out of your tap is probably ozonated during the treatment process. This alone would be enough to kill the pathogens, but ozone has very little "staying power". It rapidly dissipates. That's where the chlorine dioxide comes in - to ensure the water stays disease-free all the way to your tap.

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#89289 - 02/12/08 11:58 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: NiytOwl]
ndsol Offline
member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, Texas
Quote:
[quote]I'd like to add that while Aqua Mira itself has not received any EPA certification, it DOES produce levels of chlorine dioxide that are comparable to (actually exceed) the EPA dosages recommended for municipalities using chlorine dioxide as their water treatment. I look at this as if Aqua Mira (and MicroPur tablets) are the "generic" version of the name brand. Same dose, same effect.
I still don't understand why after all these years Aqua Mira hasn't completed the EPA test. To me it raises too many questions. I know that others say that it is a long process and costs money, but they have had the time and to be able to say they pass would give Aqua Mira a credibility increase and would permit statements as to the effectiveness of the product, which they can't do now.

The MSR MIOX Purifier has passed the EPA Guide Standard & Protocol for Microbiological Purifiers, by inactivating bacteria, viruses, and protozoan cysts to required levels in both “Type 1” and “Type 2” waters.
EPA Establishment Number 69723-NM-001.

See this page

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#89290 - 02/12/08 02:31 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: ndsol]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
I am far out of my league to be able to add to the intellectual ideas bouncing aroung here, but it does bring to mind an article that I had once read that the clean water scare was just that, a scare tactic (sp?) designed to get us to buy water filters. The tests that discovered giardia in the water wasn't able to confirm that the giardia was ALWAYS in the water and that the human system was ALWAYS able to resist a certain amount of the cysts in the mountain streams. In fact, the article said that most cases of backpacking sickness was caused by poor cooking and cleaning hygiene (and personal hygiene) than because of the water.

The point being that many hikers will clean out their dishes with their tongues or fingers (to save water, weight, etc.), get sick, and then tell everybody it was the water.

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#89291 - 02/12/08 04:11 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: OldScout]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Quote:
The point being that many hikers will clean out their dishes with their tongues or fingers (to save water, weight, etc.), get sick, and then tell everybody it was the water.


Good point - we take so many precautions with our water, then do crazy things like inventing 5-second rules when a piece of food drops on the ground (if it lay on the ground less than 5-seconds, you can still pick it up and still eat it) or the saying, "God made dirt and dirt won't hurt".

Actually, as far as the water goes, I don't treat water because it has dangerous pathogens in it. I treat it for the reason that Brum gave about water in Mexico. If your body isn't used to the "benign" micro-organisms in the water you're apt to get cramping. Maybe cramping is too nice a word...maybe a more appropriate analogy would be the pain of giving birth to the alien in the movie of the same name. Hey, you'd think that water coming from snow melt would be free of nasties, right? Well, it is, but if the bugs in the water aren't the same strain as the ones in your gut...ugh! If you experience this just once, you'll see that a few dollars worth of chemicals or equipment is well worth the peace of mind.

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#89292 - 02/12/08 04:15 PM Re: water filter cross-over - "Scare tactic" [Re: OldScout]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Old Scout wrote;
Quote:
I am far out of my league to be able to add to the intellectual ideas bouncing aroung here, but it does bring to mind an article that I had once read that the clean water scare was just that, a scare tactic (sp?) designed to get us to buy water filters.

Brumfield wrote: Something, perhaps a bit more contemporary for you to read:

http://www.lenntech.com/Waterborne-diseases/waterborne-diseases.htm Brum
_________________________



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#89293 - 02/12/08 04:38 PM Re: water filter cross-over - Sodis system article [Re: Earthling]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Earthling wrote:
Quote:
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I just noticed Barry Brumfield inserted Sodis in his post, doesn't hurt to know we BOTH studied with LWI <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> been there, done that Brum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jason Livy if you are in touch with the Platypus folks please find out for us if they know of SODIS, and if the Platy water bags are usuable in this regard. If so, Platypus might think of using this to their advantage in advertising their product; thus helping themselves and being supporters of the SODIS projects <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Brum, you are a fountain of water knowledge <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Brumfield wrote:
Earthling, my training with Living Waters International was "well" worth the effort, and has come into actual use a number of times, not just for sounding off on a worthy forum. Glad to see that you also recognized the teachings at LWI as worth while. Let's get together and make one of the LWI drilling trips soon. There are drilling trips scheduled in Mexico for October and November of this year. I'm in touch with Jim Mohney by email at this time to get more details. I'll let you know. Could be a good time and do some good too.

Below is a link to another pro Sodis system article out of Bern, Switzerland that is pretty straight forward. Thought you and some of the others here would like to see it. Brum

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/index.html?siteSect=108&sid=5451211
_________________________



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#89294 - 02/12/08 04:41 PM Re: water filter cross-over - "Scare tactic" [Re: Brumfield]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
OK, but I'm hiking in the Cascade Mountains, not Bangladesh, or Africa, or a "developing nation." It is all snow melt spring runoff or fresh out of the ground. Understand, that I just added in my observations regarding personal hygiene being the culpret (sp?) for much illness in the mountains around here. As it turns out, I (almost) always filter my water and I always have my scouts filter their water. We use the MSR Miniworks.

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#89295 - 02/12/08 04:43 PM Re: water filter cross-over - "Scare tactic" [Re: OldScout]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
I will try to find that article at home and post the link. I think the test was run by a university and tested in the Yosemite wilderness.

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#89296 - 02/12/08 06:27 PM Re: water filter cross-over - "Scare tactic" [Re: OldScout]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
I will try to find that article at home and post the link. I think the test was run by a university and tested in the Yosemite wilderness.


Sorry, I assumed you were making a blanket statement reflecting a scare tactic on a global scale. Brum
_________________________



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#89297 - 02/12/08 10:29 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: Xelif]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6372
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
The area around the spring where my friend got giardia is a very popular camping area--I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was seepage into the groundwater!

From what I've read, giardia started with humans (a lot of people are immune but are carriers) and that's how it spread to the wildlife. At least some wild animals have been found to be carriers also, the mountain beaver of the northwest being one of those. You're right, though, it's not fair to blame it on the animals. But they are continuing the process that humans started.

The sites I checked for links to scientific studies were Katadyn and MSR. They may have something, but I sure didn't find it!


Edited by OregonMouse (02/12/08 10:30 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#89298 - 02/13/08 08:39 AM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Berserker]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Berserker wrote:
Quote:
"After UV treatment, ceramic filtering, and chlorine dioxide treatment of the water, I then carry 32 ounces of my water in a clear plastic bottle on top of my pack so it's exposed to the sun's UV rays most of the day."

Brum, I see that you are doing some serious treatment to your water. I was just curious, are all these steps for just when you are hiking in Mexico, or would you use the same method in the US?


Brumfield wrote:
Hey, Norse Warrior! Before moving to Mexico I treated water while hiking in the southern states regularly. Louisiana is known for brackish swamp water and even the streams are not pure. Same thing in Florida, warm water tends to breed disease, just like leaving food out on a warm day, versus a cold day, does the same. Or as another example... would you prefer to store your open can of tuna cold or warm? YUK!

When hiking the colder climates in the states I sometimes drank out of the streams with no treatment, especially if near the origin or if I knew for sure there were no industry, towns, or resorts upstream.

I must admit, as a child I regularly drank out of the Louisiana creeks we were swimming in. I don't recall any major illnesses from doing that. Now, as I sit here writing this, I'm recalling that I also played barefooted in cow lots on the farm back then. When I was around five years old I got caught using half of a huge watermelon rind to scoot down the incline of a small, shallow cow barn drainage ditch . I thought my mom was gonna kill me with the hot water and chlorine bleach she used to scrub the leeches off of me. Maybe due to constant exposure I was immune to most everything coming out of the ground or water. Today, I tend to stay away from cow barn drainage ditches and homemade watermelon rind boats that don't float.

So that you'll know I'm not totally anal about filtering and treating drinking water, I'll share this with you... My mom lives about 70 miles north of New Orleans right next to the unspoiled Bogue Chitto River and the wild and beautiful Honey Island Swamp. She uses water from a well located on her property with zero filtration or treatment. The water comes up cold enough to mist a drinking glass.

I helped put the well down with a leased drilling rig. We drilled to a depth of 450 feet, and the last 100 feet were in pure white Sparta Sand. We stopped drilling while still in the Sparta Sand, which is also known as the middle Claiborne aquifer, then cap-sealed the well, and set the pump. The well has since produced quality potable water for the last 25 years, without fail year round. About a year after putting the well down I had the water tested at LSU, and found it to be of a better quality than many treated city water supplies. My children drank the water while infants and had no ill effects.

Due to the infamous Mexican Amoebas, I ALWAYS chlorinate and filter the water here when away from my home water supply. UV treatment is an extra step I take since the sunshine is free. If I need water at night that I've just chlorinated and filtered, I'll drink it without UV treatment. Brum

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