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#89271 - 02/10/08 11:46 AM A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: blazer209]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
This thread, because of its health importance, has garnered a lot of attention.

Recently I e-mailed SteriPen asking them if a bottle covered with Mylar reflective film would help the sterilization process. No answer yet. I think, based on direct observation, that we all know SOME UV rays pass thru Lexan & other clear plastics. Otherwise we would not see the purple light of the SteriPen's lamp. Correct?

So, reflecting that light back may help to kill bacteria & viruses "hiding" behind & within micro particles of debris. SteriPen requires swirling the water to give the UV rays a chance to kill any "hiding" microorganisms.

Any SCIENTIFIC info out there to support my "reflectivity theory"? (i.e. tests that can be replicated many times by different investigators with the same results.)

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#89272 - 02/10/08 11:57 AM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: 300winmag]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:

Recently I e-mailed SteriPen asking them if a bottle covered with Mylar reflective film would help the sterilization process. No answer yet. I think, based on direct observation, that we all know SOME UV rays pass thru Lexan & other clear plastics. Otherwise we would not see the purple light of the SteriPen's lamp. Correct?

So, reflecting that light back may help to kill bacteria & viruses "hiding" behind & within micro particles of debris. SteriPen requires swirling the water to give the UV rays a chance to kill any "hiding" microorganisms.


This is a good idea, but the problem is that we don't see UV light. What you're seeing is some visible light that the lamp emits, according to SteriPen, in order to let us know it is indeed working. So, reflecting the visible light back in won't change the sterilization. Remember, the primary action of the Pen is via UV-C light, and that wavelength is absorbed by plastic.

I'm curious how much UVA and UVB the Pen emits, as that might go through the plastic. (edit) Don't worry about that being a problem, though, I doubt a battery-powered lamp could emit enough energy to burn you, through a bottle full of water <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Xelif (02/10/08 12:01 PM)
_________________________
- John

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#89273 - 02/10/08 12:22 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: Xelif]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
"X",

OK, if the UV light is all absorbed by the plastic bottle then would an INTERIOR reflective layer be better? Perhaps the stainless water bottles REI sells may be the way to go. Anything that can increase the SteriPen's effectiveness would likely help us.

I think we need tests on this before we say SteriPen knows all.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#89274 - 02/10/08 12:40 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: 300winmag]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
"X",

OK, if the UV light is all absorbed by the plastic bottle then would an INTERIOR reflective layer be better? Perhaps the stainless water bottles REI sells may be the way to go. Anything that can increase the SteriPen's effectiveness would likely help us.

I think we need tests on this before we say SteriPen knows all.


Yes, an interior reflective layer would increase the lifespan of the UV light. Stainless steel bottles would probably increase the effectiveness and drop the required treatment time.

On another note, why do you feel the SteriPen needs to be more effective? I'm fundamentally a skeptic (edit: by nature) myself. I've read over their lab results and, having done similar work in the lab myself, I was convinced right there. Their tests were done properly and could be replicated by anyone who can dilute + plate out bacteria on agar plates and count them. (Harder than it sounds, I don't miss microbiology work at all.) I've read the lab-work of some pretty questionable products and the difference is obvious.

It's also not just their research - there is a very, very large body of research on using UV light and sunlight to disinfect water in general. I'm talking thousands of lab-hours and beyond that in work-hours, not to mention all the people relying on it to get clean water.

If you have more specific questions, the research exists to answer them. How do we know the report isn't falsified? Well, I had written a four-paragraph summary of why scientific research is valid. I removed it in the interests of everyone's eyeballs, and if you really want to know, I'll tell you later <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(edit) The beauty of science is that if you really doubt the SteriPen's claims, you can test them yourself or pay to test them, then trumpet your results all over the news.


Edited by Xelif (02/10/08 12:49 PM)
_________________________
- John

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#89275 - 02/10/08 12:50 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: 300winmag]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
This thread, because of its health importance, has garnered a lot of attention.

Recently I e-mailed SteriPen asking them if a bottle covered with Mylar reflective film would help the sterilization process. No answer yet. I think, based on direct observation, that we all know SOME UV rays pass thru Lexan & other clear plastics. Otherwise we would not see the purple light of the SteriPen's lamp. Correct?

So, reflecting that light back may help to kill bacteria & viruses "hiding" behind & within micro particles of debris. SteriPen requires swirling the water to give the UV rays a chance to kill any "hiding" microorganisms.

Any SCIENTIFIC info out there to support my "reflectivity theory"? (i.e. tests that can be replicated many times by different investigators with the same results.)

Eric


Yes, there are articles mentioning reflection of the sun's rays to enhance the UV sterilization process. I have not seen reflection used within the actual water container, but I've seen it suggested to place your water container on a metal roof, white sand, light colored rock, or any other reflective surface you can find. Just like a mirror behind a candle will multiply the light output, so does a shinny surface multiply, at least some, the sun's UV.. I carry a rolled up sheet of aluminum foil to use under my bottles in camp on cloudy days. I also shake the bottle at least once during the UV process. Maybe we should start a post in which we discuss in detail our process of gathering and sterilizing our drinking water in the field. Brum
_________________________



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#89276 - 02/10/08 01:52 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? WOW! [Re: Xelif]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Wow! What an informative and VERY interesting topic this has all turned out to be! See what you got started here, blazer... good job! It's a pleasure to be allowed to take part in your forum. Brum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
_________________________



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#89277 - 02/10/08 04:19 PM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? WOW! [Re: Brumfield]
blazer209 Offline
member

Registered: 02/05/08
Posts: 31
Loc: California/central
True, I'm some what astonished by the amount of feedback this topic has generated.

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#89278 - 02/10/08 10:47 PM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: billk]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Better mention a caveat about SODIS, since it's come up as an alternative to chemicals. SODIS is not recommended at latitudes higher than - I believe it was 40-degrees. At higher latitudes the intensity of sunlight may be insufficient to guarantee sterility in any reasonable time span.

Now I gotta say one thing about this method that perhaps some don't care about, but I do. I wouldn't use SODIS unless every other form of water treatment I possess was used up/broken. It takes too long (6 hours at North American latitudes), the water ends up warm or even hot (yech), and water high in organics ends up smelling like a swamp (breakdown of sulphur-bearing compounds). The people that this method is targeted at may be used to this, but my overly-civilized palate prefers water that lacks those qualities. I never liked iodine or chlorine either, so these newer technologies of chlorine dioxide, MIOX, and UV are the greatest thing since sliced bread to me.

FWIW, I see how well UV sterilization works in my fish tank. I have ZERO bacterial/algal activity in the water. My fish have been disease free for over two years. I'd trust it implicitly as long as the water is clear. For cloudy or brown (tannin bearing) water I'd fall back on chlorine dioxide or MIOX.

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#89279 - 02/11/08 08:08 AM Re: A better bottle for UV H2O treatment?? [Re: Brumfield]
coyotemaster Offline
member

Registered: 03/07/06
Posts: 294
Loc: Arizona
Brum, your thoughts on this please

Clear plastic bottles made from standard... for six hours

When I check the bottom of a two liter pop bottle it says PETE, which makes it seem really nice & cheap for this purpose.

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#89280 - 02/11/08 09:33 AM Re: water filter cross-over-Plastic-UV-botulism [Re: NiytOwl]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
NiytOwl, I think you bring up some very good points. I was mostly interested to learn that such a low-tech method works, and suggested it for backpacking more tongue-in-cheek. I'd only use it as a last backup myself <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (or as part of a system like Brum) but I prefer to imagine the chaos it might introduce on some of the more extreme sites <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to look more easily on the thin trickling mountain streams soaking in the sunlight at high altitude, though. Those get UV all day! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Mountain water is sounding better and better... I gotta get out of here!
_________________________
- John

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#89281 - 02/11/08 09:47 AM Re: water filter cross-over - Weight versus safety [Re: Brumfield]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
"After UV treatment, ceramic filtering, and chlorine dioxide treatment of the water, I then carry 32 ounces of my water in a clear plastic bottle on top of my pack so it's exposed to the sun's UV rays most of the day."

Brum, I see that you are doing some serious treatment to your water. I was just curious, are all these steps for just when you are hiking in Mexico, or would you use the same method in the US?

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#89282 - 02/11/08 10:07 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: blazer209]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2751
Loc: California
I have commented on water purification on previous posts. My real question is how do you know if it works? You use any method, and it works. You do not know if it would have been OK without purification. I sure would like to see a real scientific study done. I just think we have gone way overkill on this issue.

There is no question that in most places abroad or in really yucky water anywhere, purification is needed.

I honestly doubt the need to purify water in many of our U.S. mountainous regions. (PS, I am a groundwater geologist and water resource engineer and have attended many conferences on water treatment, so I have a fair knowledge of water quality issues.) Water in the mountains is continuously naturally being recycled and purified.

There is a lot more to this issue than purify or not. Improperly cleaned filters can actually ADD microbes. You carry the thing in your dirty old pack all day! Touch the purified water bottle with your filfthy hands - more germs. With chemical methods, water temperature is critical. I suspect a lot of supposedly "purified water" really is not fully purified but was OK to begin with so you just think your technology is the reason you do not get sick.

Everyone has an immune system that can handle a certain amount of bugs. Everyone's tolerance is different. I take chlorine and iodine tabs and only use them occassionally and have hiked a lot- mountains, coasts and deserts in the continental US for 40 years and never have had problems. I am very careful of my water sources. My immune system seems to be quite hardy. Maybe my eating all that dirt when I was a kid helped!

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#89283 - 02/11/08 01:11 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: wandering_daisy]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6399
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
To know if whatever you're doing to your water really works, you'd have to send samples of both untreated and treated water from a number of sources to a reputable lab for testing. I wonder if anyone has done this? In fact, I wonder if the manufacturers have done this, because I sure haven't found any evidence on their websites that I've looked at. The reason for sampling both untreated and treated water is that you need to find out if the source has anything harmful in it in the first place. Just saying you used xxx to treat your water and you didn't get sick doesn't prove anything. The water may be pure in the first place or you may be immune to whatever is in it.

That being said, I filter my water regardless of source. Some years back, I had a friend get a really nasty case of giardia from a spring in the high Cascades. That was the only place on the trip that he didn't filter his water, because it was coming right out of the hillside.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#89284 - 02/11/08 01:15 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: wandering_daisy]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
Good point wandering daisy. There was this article in the LA times about water contamination in the high mountains

http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-os-giardia26jul26

Surprisingly even in areas with denser hikers the water had few microorganisms.

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#89285 - 02/11/08 05:52 PM Re: water filter cross-over - My bugs, your bugs [Re: wandering_daisy]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
wanderingdaisy wrote;
Quote:
I just think we have gone way overkill on this issue.



WanderingDaisy, your points are well taken, your career credentials are admirable, and I appreciate your input. What I have personally found is that strange bugs in water I'm not use to are the ones that make me sick. Perhaps we build up an immunity over time to the bugs in our own water supply, whether it be our own backyard well, our local city or municipal water supply, or even the rivers, lakes, and streams in our immediate area that feed these same wells etc...

I could not drink the tap water flowing up from the volcanic lakes under ground when I first moved here four years ago. I would get stomach cramps with every attempt. Now, after living here these four years, it no longer bothers me. However, if I go to the coastal areas and drink water from the underground volcanic lakes, I get worse stomach cramps than I did here. If I stay a month or so there, and continue to drink the water, the stomach cramps begin to subside with no medical treatment administered.

The locals all swear this village water is good, they use it without filtration or other treatment, and appear to have no visible health problems with it. The villagers 20 miles across the lake say this water in my village is bad, and won't touch it, but drink their own, and visa versa. When we go over there we bring or buy bottled water and they do the same while visiting here. Mexican nationals from around the country will drink their own local water back home, but will not drink any other Mexican water when on vacation away from their own areas. They will even stock up on their local bottled water to carry with them.

So, I guess you're safe drinking your local water as you describe, but I would not be guaranteed to handle it as well while just visiting there. Nor would you do well drinking my water when you first get here. My water filter, chemicals, and UV treatment, protect me when I'm away from the water supply I have adapted to or built up an immunity to.

A good example of just how well water filtration and UV treatment works is the case in which tens of thousands of lives are being saved in the African nations even as I write this. Without water filtration the people of the third world nations are dieing every hour from dehydration, brought on by diarrhea, brought on by drinking unfiltered disease and germ ridden water. The proof of "how do you know it works" is in the well publicized successful results of filtration and UV treatment use taking place in third world countries. Sometimes we just have to trust professional test results as published. Just like you trust that your computerized ABS brakes, that someone designed, built, and promoted as being trustworthy, will not to lock up on those mountain curves.

Be grateful that you have a clean water supply, and lend a hand here in adding to the knowledge base that could, potentially, be used to save lives on a global scale. There are a lot of bright, dedicated, well educated people with an amazing amount of common sense on this forum, please don't dampen their enthusiasm. This very important subject has not even begun to enter the realm of "over kill". Peace, Brum

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#89286 - 02/11/08 07:27 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: OregonMouse]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
To know if whatever you're doing to your water really works, you'd have to send samples of both untreated and treated water from a number of sources to a reputable lab for testing. I wonder if anyone has done this? In fact, I wonder if the manufacturers have done this, because I sure haven't found any evidence on their websites that I've looked at.

That being said, I filter my water regardless of source. Some years back, I had a friend get a really nasty case of giardia from a spring in the high Cascades. That was the only place on the trip that he didn't filter his water, because it was coming right out of the hillside.


Most of the manufacturers link to studies done, and most of the studies are reputable (a counter-example was the "LifeStraw" that popped up and was clearly crap with crap studies.)

SteriPen: http://www.steripen.com/testing.html
They've got the best testing that I've seen. They do more along the lines of EPA testing with real pathogenic organisms.

Potable Aqua has NOTHING, Aqua Mira has ... a ... less than ideal test done by Dr. Ryan Jordan (sound familiar?) proving it kills biofilms, his speciality, but nothing else. I'm not doubting the product efficiency, presumably some other research exists proving chlorine dioxide kills, but here's the 'study'.

http://www.aquamira.com/consumer/aquamira-water-treatment-drops/BPL_2_Efficacy-of-Water.pdf

I'm not even going to go into the filters, etc.

It's easy to test any water purification product in a lab. You lace the water with, ideally, an extremely hardy organism such as certain viruses or spores. You treat the water with product, then pour water onto agar plates (which grow bacteria very well), and see if anything grows. Sterility controls and control samples, etc, are all very important, but that's the basic procedure.

Now, I haven't completely thought this through, but you should be able to test things at home by doing this:
Get two jars half-full of water, dump a bunch of sugar, maybe a bit of starch in, and then seal up one... drop your chlorine tablet in the other one, seal it up, and see which one molds over first <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Variations of this can be performed with other products, with contamination from the air and yourself a huge issue however.

OregonMouse, I made a huge big post in the other forum about giardia and the wild. The general idea is that no, it's not a problem (in North America mountains), and that if your friend caught giardia from a mountain spring, he or she was almost certainly infected by human hygiene issues related to that spring and/or other hikers (ie pollution or cross-contamination).

No manufacturers actually go out and TEST wild water, because most mountain streams in North America are clean. It's not very convincing to publish tests stating your product isn't necessary. There are a few researchers who do it themselves, and the general result from the Sierra is very clean water. (check that other thread for actual links). Beaver Fever should be called Human Fever - beavers catch it from humans!
_________________________
- John

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#89287 - 02/11/08 07:36 PM Re: water filter cross-over - My bugs, your bugs [Re: Brumfield]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
Be grateful that you have a clean water supply, and lend a hand here in adding to the knowledge base that could, potentially, be used to save lives on a global scale.


I think we've got two separate issues here. One, backpacking in the more remote areas of America itself, few water issues are found, despite previous bad press. Two, hundreds of millions if not billions of humans live in reasonable proximity with other humans and have to deal with the lack of centralized, reliable water and sewage systems.

Brum, I'm going to hazard a guess that you deal with the second situation a lot more than I do, for example. For some of us, me namely, the only concern with water purification is when we head out on a trip into terrain quite different from our daily life. I don't bat an eye at my tap water or the tap water across most of the US. It tastes weird, but my body doesn't notice the difference. What you say about the different villages and their water supplies is absolutely -fascinating-.

That said, I'm pretty passionate about water purification both for myself and for those who don't live with a nice sewer and water supply as I do. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
- John

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#89288 - 02/12/08 10:54 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: Xelif]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Quote:
Aqua Mira has ... a ... less than ideal test done by Dr. Ryan Jordan


I'd like to add that while Aqua Mira itself has not received any EPA certification, it DOES produce levels of chlorine dioxide that are comparable to (actually exceed) the EPA dosages recommended for municipalities using chlorine dioxide as their water treatment. I look at this as if Aqua Mira (and MicroPur tablets) are the "generic" version of the name brand. Same dose, same effect.

The only technology I'm surprised is not represented in the outdoor market is ozone. No taste, no smell, and actually leaves the water "fresh" tasting. The water coming out of your tap is probably ozonated during the treatment process. This alone would be enough to kill the pathogens, but ozone has very little "staying power". It rapidly dissipates. That's where the chlorine dioxide comes in - to ensure the water stays disease-free all the way to your tap.

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#89289 - 02/12/08 11:58 AM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: NiytOwl]
ndsol Offline
member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, Texas
Quote:
[quote]I'd like to add that while Aqua Mira itself has not received any EPA certification, it DOES produce levels of chlorine dioxide that are comparable to (actually exceed) the EPA dosages recommended for municipalities using chlorine dioxide as their water treatment. I look at this as if Aqua Mira (and MicroPur tablets) are the "generic" version of the name brand. Same dose, same effect.
I still don't understand why after all these years Aqua Mira hasn't completed the EPA test. To me it raises too many questions. I know that others say that it is a long process and costs money, but they have had the time and to be able to say they pass would give Aqua Mira a credibility increase and would permit statements as to the effectiveness of the product, which they can't do now.

The MSR MIOX Purifier has passed the EPA Guide Standard & Protocol for Microbiological Purifiers, by inactivating bacteria, viruses, and protozoan cysts to required levels in both “Type 1” and “Type 2” waters.
EPA Establishment Number 69723-NM-001.

See this page

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#89290 - 02/12/08 02:31 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: ndsol]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
I am far out of my league to be able to add to the intellectual ideas bouncing aroung here, but it does bring to mind an article that I had once read that the clean water scare was just that, a scare tactic (sp?) designed to get us to buy water filters. The tests that discovered giardia in the water wasn't able to confirm that the giardia was ALWAYS in the water and that the human system was ALWAYS able to resist a certain amount of the cysts in the mountain streams. In fact, the article said that most cases of backpacking sickness was caused by poor cooking and cleaning hygiene (and personal hygiene) than because of the water.

The point being that many hikers will clean out their dishes with their tongues or fingers (to save water, weight, etc.), get sick, and then tell everybody it was the water.

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#89291 - 02/12/08 04:11 PM Re: water filter cross-over [Re: OldScout]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Quote:
The point being that many hikers will clean out their dishes with their tongues or fingers (to save water, weight, etc.), get sick, and then tell everybody it was the water.


Good point - we take so many precautions with our water, then do crazy things like inventing 5-second rules when a piece of food drops on the ground (if it lay on the ground less than 5-seconds, you can still pick it up and still eat it) or the saying, "God made dirt and dirt won't hurt".

Actually, as far as the water goes, I don't treat water because it has dangerous pathogens in it. I treat it for the reason that Brum gave about water in Mexico. If your body isn't used to the "benign" micro-organisms in the water you're apt to get cramping. Maybe cramping is too nice a word...maybe a more appropriate analogy would be the pain of giving birth to the alien in the movie of the same name. Hey, you'd think that water coming from snow melt would be free of nasties, right? Well, it is, but if the bugs in the water aren't the same strain as the ones in your gut...ugh! If you experience this just once, you'll see that a few dollars worth of chemicals or equipment is well worth the peace of mind.

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#89292 - 02/12/08 04:15 PM Re: water filter cross-over - "Scare tactic" [Re: OldScout]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Old Scout wrote;
Quote:
I am far out of my league to be able to add to the intellectual ideas bouncing aroung here, but it does bring to mind an article that I had once read that the clean water scare was just that, a scare tactic (sp?) designed to get us to buy water filters.

Brumfield wrote: Something, perhaps a bit more contemporary for you to read:

http://www.lenntech.com/Waterborne-diseases/waterborne-diseases.htm Brum
_________________________



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#89293 - 02/12/08 04:38 PM Re: water filter cross-over - Sodis system article [Re: Earthling]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Earthling wrote:
Quote:
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I just noticed Barry Brumfield inserted Sodis in his post, doesn't hurt to know we BOTH studied with LWI <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> been there, done that Brum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jason Livy if you are in touch with the Platypus folks please find out for us if they know of SODIS, and if the Platy water bags are usuable in this regard. If so, Platypus might think of using this to their advantage in advertising their product; thus helping themselves and being supporters of the SODIS projects <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Brum, you are a fountain of water knowledge <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Brumfield wrote:
Earthling, my training with Living Waters International was "well" worth the effort, and has come into actual use a number of times, not just for sounding off on a worthy forum. Glad to see that you also recognized the teachings at LWI as worth while. Let's get together and make one of the LWI drilling trips soon. There are drilling trips scheduled in Mexico for October and November of this year. I'm in touch with Jim Mohney by email at this time to get more details. I'll let you know. Could be a good time and do some good too.

Below is a link to another pro Sodis system article out of Bern, Switzerland that is pretty straight forward. Thought you and some of the others here would like to see it. Brum

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/index.html?siteSect=108&sid=5451211
_________________________



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#89294 - 02/12/08 04:41 PM Re: water filter cross-over - "Scare tactic" [Re: Brumfield]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
OK, but I'm hiking in the Cascade Mountains, not Bangladesh, or Africa, or a "developing nation." It is all snow melt spring runoff or fresh out of the ground. Understand, that I just added in my observations regarding personal hygiene being the culpret (sp?) for much illness in the mountains around here. As it turns out, I (almost) always filter my water and I always have my scouts filter their water. We use the MSR Miniworks.

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#89295 - 02/12/08 04:43 PM Re: water filter cross-over - "Scare tactic" [Re: OldScout]
OldScout Offline
member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 501
Loc: Puget Sound, Washington
I will try to find that article at home and post the link. I think the test was run by a university and tested in the Yosemite wilderness.

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