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#88418 - 01/31/08 03:03 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: movingmountain]
DoggoneGA Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 4
Loc: GA
Hi! I just joined because I received a message that my stove tests were being discussed here and I thought I'd come over and see if I can answer any questions.

I did see that someone questioned about "boiling" water. My tests have all been done with a digital thermometer set to the boiling temperature of 212 degrees.

So far I've done all the testing indoors because I wanted a comparison test between the stoves with as little environmental variation as possible. I do plan to do a test of windscreens using a fan to try to, again, minimize variation as much as possible...but still test using moving air.

If you've checked my test pages, I do have a whole series of tests to post where I used the Heineken Beer Can pot...but I've messed up my FTP login and it'll probably be this weekend before I have time to call and get it straightened out...but as soon as I do I will be posting those tests.

I've also got 2 additional stoves to add to the existing posted tests...which may cause some changes in the rankings of the stoves already tested. Those, too, I will post as soon as I can.
_________________________
DoggoneGA
http://www.runswiftwhippets.com/Homepage.htm

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#88419 - 01/31/08 04:50 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: Paddy_Crow]
retrotramp Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/04
Posts: 103
Loc: Christchurch, New Zealand
Quote:
Engineering metrics are just that, but I can tell you that more often than not the more powerful engine will win the race.

There are ways to evaluate performance with various "real world" noise factors, but it is probably more complex than the average DIY'er is capable of dissecting. At least I wouldn't consider those with an understanding of factorial testing and setting up an orthogonal array to be average!


I wouldn't expect someone with the time or desire to do that kind of testing to be average either...

As I have been experimenting a lot lately with the effect of windscreens and airflow control with these stoves, I have found there is an 'optimum' burn rate for each stove which maximises fuel consumption. To me this is more important in the long run. Sometimes reducing available oxygen improves the stoves fuel economy, but also slows the heating rate down. If I'm not in any hurry, I prefer this as it saves fuel. A stove that can be filled with more fuel than needed and allows for the recovery of the unused fuel (eg feather fire or trangia) is also more efficient and economical on fuel. An overfilled stove also heats more quickly. A stove that has better stability is safer, especially in strong gusty winds or on uneven surfaces, and will also get more points in my book (eg feather fire, caldera cone, thermojet microlite compared to, eg, gram weenie). Simmering ability (feather fire, thermojet) is also a nice option to have. So I personally disagree that it's all about speed of boil in calm conditions. The best fuel efficiency AND fastest boil I have seen in test burns is combining an MSR windpro with a 2 quart caldera cone. This needs only 8 grams of fuel to boil 2 cups (500ml) water in under 4 minutes. But then again it weighs a LOT more than any of the other stoves, so that is something else that needs to go into my equations as to which stove is most efficient. A caldera cone also increases the fuel economy and stability of the thermojet and solid fuel tabs, yet totally stymies pressurised stoves, creating lots of nasty fumes and non-boils.

What would be ideal is to calculate the benefits of each stove sysem (including windscreens, fuel recovery, stability, total weight) over different trip lengths. Heck, if you had to carry 3 months worth of fuel, it might work out lightest to carry the windpro/Caldera combo. An overnight trip it might be worth just taking your gram weenie and hoping for calm weather and a flat surface to cook on. One week might be best with caldera system and Ti-esbit stand...the possibilities are endless and the pros and cons are endless.

Cost could be a whole other category of consideration too...

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#88420 - 01/31/08 08:38 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: hootyhoo]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
TRANGIA IN '08

Rank um, spank um. To me it does not matter which one works best in the lab. I found that by using the Trangia I got much better mileage -and this of course is due to the fact that I do not have to meter out the fuel, because I just snuff it, cool it and put the lid on. Being able to store fuel in the stove is the way to go and it cuts out a lot of the fiddle factor.
If you meter out too much fuel and cannot recover it then you have to burn it. If you meter out too little fuel you have to add more and re-light the stove. Honestly none of this makes any sense. Some folks say that after a while they know exactly how much fuel to put in their stove - baaaalony. All the external factors that play into burn times/boil times, such as air temperature, water temp, fuel temp, altitude, wind, ect.. change constantly and getting the perfect amount is only possible if you have too much to start with, put the stove out, and save the remainder.

My name is Trangia User and I approve this message!


Have to agree now that I tried one (Thanks Glenn <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />)

Lots of good mental flossing going on here; maybe start a new thread on this from the Paddy/Retro/etc point of view, than the 'my stove is faster than your stove of Sabre. DoggoneGA, Welcome to the Forum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />; you did a lot of work there, PM with PaddyCrow to see what you can garner from his knowledge and report back here in a thread.
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#88421 - 01/31/08 10:32 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: hootyhoo]
axel Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/12/07
Posts: 7
Loc: Santa Barbara
I am partial to the Trangia also. I wonder if this test was done by setting the pot directly on the burner and not using the windscreen. I feel that Trangia engineered this stove to burn at top efficiency when used with the support/windscreen and the pot/lid that comes with the kit including the Mini Trangia design. Maybe the ratings will change when the windscreens and airflow are introduced.

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#88422 - 02/01/08 10:12 AM Re: Stove tests - Colima Alcohol stove [Re: movingmountain]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Hey MM, I recently designed a stove, The Colima... named after Volcano Colima which I can see from my desk.

The Colima runs on regular rubbing alcohol Isopropyl 70%
(not denatured alcohol shellac thinner).

Until now the use of rubbing alcohol as a fuel has been hampered due to poor stove design in where the alcohol burned too “cold”, inefficiently, smoked, and dirtied the stove and the pot.

The stove is designed differently than any other stove I've seen online. It is simple, but is not a pepsi can or cat food can stove.

Here are some of its beneficial features:

Weighs 3 ounces

4" diameter by 6" tall in size. (has storage for 4 ounces of extra fuel inside)

Made from mostly recycled materials with a total cost of about $2.50

The stove runs on common rubbing alcohol and NOT denatured alcohol, so it is not burning Methyl ethyl Ketone (also known as Butanone), nor is it burning Methanol or Acetone. All three chemicals are in denatured alcohol, but not in rubbing alcohol.

Operates cool enough that you can hold the stove in your hand while boiling a pot of water. The stove is designed to contain the high heat produced by the flame. The exterior surfaces of the stove do not reach a temperature that would cause combustible materials such as grass, leaves, twigs, tent floors, paper, clothing, etc., to ignite. The fuel and flames are not pressurized, so they do not flare up the sides of a 5 ½ in. diameter pot. I run the boiling tests with the stove sitting on a cotton cloth on my wooden desk, right here next to my monitor. Of course, it should go without saying that you should be cautious where you place any source of fire in the outdoors.

The stove can be returned to your pack with one minute of cool downtime

Does not soot up the pot or stove. Leaves only a 2 inch diameter circle of ash under the pot.

The design incorporates a built in wind screen and can be used in wind, rain or snow

Very stable and strong. ( I stood on the stove for 30 seconds on one foot and it showed zero visible damage.) Was not lit!

Here are the latest test results:

Stove # 1 - Test # 10 (01/19/08)
Containment cell # 1
Windscreen # 3
Fuel cell # 4

Altitude: 5700 ft.
Ambient temperature: 56 degrees
Fuel: 3 tablespoons rubbing alcohol Isopropyl 70%
(NOTE: NOT denatured alcohol shellac thinner)
Water: 8 oz (58 degrees)
Cook pot: 24 - oz capacity, 5 1/4 in. diameter, aluminum.
Prime time: 30 sec.
Steam forms: 5 min. 10 sec.
Standard food serving temp of 160 degrees reached: 5 min. 15 sec.
Bottom bubbles: 6 min. 10 sec.
Boils: One mile altitude = 7 min. 30 sec. (sea level 5 min. 23 sec. boil time)
Fuel total burn time: 21 min. 35 sec. ( 3 tbsp. rubbing alcohol )
_________________________



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#88423 - 02/01/08 06:28 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: axel]
hootyhoo Offline
member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 686
Loc: Cyberspace
Right on. I think Trangia did some engineering on this stove. And I also think they may have designed these items to function as a unit. I have been carrying the kit as it comes in the Mini28t version.

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#88424 - 02/02/08 03:41 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: hootyhoo]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Brumfield, great post...Photos please! Once Jason sees this he'll want to make one to put on his website which is a great one to be featured on by the way <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Gardenville/Bill Fornshell likewise will be able to whip one up with supplied directions for all the Forum to see <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes Hooty, I think Trangia worked very diligently on putting together kits that function flawlessly when used as one piece. Reliable and sturdy two good words to have descibing a piece of gear in your pack IME <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#88425 - 02/03/08 07:29 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: Earthling]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Hey earthling, let me refine the stove and get it down to it's lowest boil time and highest maximum fuel burn time, and I'll then post images and specs. I would really like to see everybody start using rubbing alcohol and not the denatured shellac thinner stuff. Where rubbing alcohol versus denatured alcohol, the health benefits and fire hazard safety factors make it well worth waiting the 3 extra minutes to boil water or heat food. Brum
_________________________



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#88426 - 02/03/08 08:03 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: hootyhoo]
dla Offline
member

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
The Trangia will run wide open and boil water the fastest if the pot to burner height is ~1.75". The burner works better closer if you use the simmer-ring. I looked some test results that said they burned 2oz of fuel in the Trangia and didn't boil 1qt of water. I have no idea how they got such crappy results, but they must've been doing something really wrong. I'm a Trangia bigot and I approve this posting.

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#88427 - 02/06/08 04:35 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: sabre11004]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Sabre11004 wrote: "I have around 20-30 of these stoves and the worst one will out perform any of the stoves you see tested here. I used colder water (50 degree), same amount (4 cups) and have achieved boil times as quickly as 3-4 minutes. In most cases I could get two boils out of each burn and most of my stoves will roll boil 4 cups of water in around 6-7 minutes....Hopes this helps...Happy Trekking...sabre11004"


Sabre, yes, but that mixture of white gasoline, 151 rum, Durango 220 proof yellow tequila, lacquer thinner, and a double shot of Everclear 190, hooked up down line of a 30 liter nitrous oxide tank, that you're using as fuel will tend to burn a little hotter than most alcohol fuels. We can't compete!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Brum

Consumer warning: Do not attempt to ignite the above mentioned fuel mixture. Drink it? Maybe, however passing gas could be lethal to innocent bystanders...

I did not say that last part, earthling did it. Brum <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
_________________________



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#88428 - 02/07/08 10:16 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: Brumfield]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Yeah, I'm the Chief Gas Passer around these parts <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I like what you're saying with regards to the rubbing alcohol Barry. I use it already for charcoal BBQ starting instead of lighter fluid. It's cheaper, burns without affecting the taste of the food grilled, and can be found nearly everywhere <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Now on with the tests! Oh yeah, what altitude, temps, water temps, etc are you testing your device at Barry <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#88429 - 02/07/08 03:58 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: Earthling]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Earthling wrote: "Now on with the tests! Oh yeah, what altitude, temps, water temps, etc are you testing your device at Barry <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


Earthling, I don't want to be redundant and repost the specs here, so instead, please look under this same "Stove Test" topic, near the top, for my post labeled as:

Re: Stove tests - Colima Alcohol stove Brumfield 02/01/08 08:12 AM

Or hold down your shift key while you click the link below and it will open in a new browser page directly to my post:
;
http://www.backpacking.net/forums/showth...31&vc=1

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#88430 - 02/07/08 04:48 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: movingmountain]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I appreciate all the work and testing on all the little stoves and I've made several of them myself. Today I built two. One was a modified pop can type stove with side burner. I cut fiberglass cloth and wrapped inside so as to have a wicking effect. I put in an ounce of denatured and lit it. It warmed and wouldn't flame until I gave it a little nudge. It then crackeled to life and melted the top of the aluminum flashing windscreen. It burned with a vengence for about 4 minutes and went out. I then built the penny stove with some 12 oz heine cans and it just kept going out. So I opened up the fill hole and got it to light. But was not impressed. I am tossing (recycling ) them. A couple of the earlier pop can stoves I built were the best performers and I'll hang onto them. So I got to thinking, (sometimes a very dangerous habit), how could I save unused fuel if I didn't burn it? I got on e-bay and bought a brass Trangia kit with a German cook kit for a total of $20 with shipping.
I was watching a YouTube video on it's use and thought I would add it to my collection. When it arrives, I'll burn some more fuel and boil some water. If all else fails, I have an old stand by built in 1952 army issur multi fuel. Single burner that you pump up like a coleman lantern that I've never had problems with. It fits in it's own pot with a cup that doubles as the lid. I have recently built a few wood burning stoves that burn pretty well and would work in a pinch but who likes soot. All my options are not extremly LW but I just want something I can reley on.
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#88431 - 06/18/08 06:11 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: movingmountain]
DoggoneGA Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 4
Loc: GA
I *finally* got my problems with logging in to my site corrected and have uploaded a new page of tests. It's a test with 2 cups of water and using a Heineken beer can pot. There were about 3 stoves I couldn't test because I couldn't get the beer can to sit safely on the stove. Those have been noted.

The link is: http://www.runswiftwhippets.com/Hikes/Descriptions.html
_________________________
DoggoneGA
http://www.runswiftwhippets.com/Homepage.htm

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#88432 - 06/19/08 07:07 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: DoggoneGA]
ShadeDog Offline
member

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 40
Loc: Minnesota
Were the tests done without windscreens?

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#88433 - 06/19/08 08:52 AM Re: Stove tests [Re: DoggoneGA]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
‘DoggoneGA’,
Very nicely done! Thanks for spending your time at comparing. I also appreciated the fiddle-factor comments you put in such as needing extra parts (priming pan…), and tricks (light it twice…) and dangers (flared to top of pan…). Good info on boil times and when it went out.

I also like to see if an alcy stove lights EASILY at 0F (stove temp AND alcy temp). That’s a good test of a fiddle-factor-free stove (say 10 times <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). I may be paranoid but I feel more confident in the wilderness when it meets that test <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

-Barry

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#88434 - 06/19/08 02:17 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: BarryP]
DoggoneGA Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 4
Loc: GA
"I also like to see if an alcy stove lights EASILY at 0F (stove temp AND alcy temp)."

Well...someone else will have to do THAT test. It might be YEARS before we get temps like that in Georgia. Maybe even decades! <G>
_________________________
DoggoneGA
http://www.runswiftwhippets.com/Homepage.htm

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#88435 - 06/19/08 02:19 PM Re: Stove tests [Re: ShadeDog]
DoggoneGA Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 4
Loc: GA
"Were the tests done without windscreens?"

Yes, and all were done indoors. At this point I'm still trying to elimnate as many variables as I can. Plus, I wanted to see how the flames behaved and I can't do that with a windscreen in place.

Some of my future plans are to decide on a stove, and then test with all the windscreens I have...maybe using a fan of some kind to keep the wind variable as constant between tests as possible.
_________________________
DoggoneGA
http://www.runswiftwhippets.com/Homepage.htm

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