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#88119 - 01/26/08 10:54 AM Survey - how warm is your down jacket?
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi All

So this post is survey to collect information from members about the actual warmth of various down jackets. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> If you want to join in, here's my plan, feel free to modify it, but everyone should finally agree to one standard before starting. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

To remove most variables except personal metabolism, this test should be done wearing "street clothes" - <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> bluejeans, a short sleeved tee shirt, and the jacket being tested. Nothng else but foot gear, no hat. Down jacket doesn't have a hood? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> uh oh... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

MODIFIED - WEAR REASONABLE CLOTHING ON LEGS.

Go outside for ten minutes or more on a cold day dressed as above, record the temperature, wind, and "stroll around the block", not being especially aerobic.

Then report back saying - "jones model B down coat - 800 down - comes to 4 inches below waist, has hood. Torso was warm at "x" degrees, or "cool" or "cold" or something." Oh and remember to note wind conditions.

I am asuming that the more epensive UL garments will be the poorest performers. just my $.02, but of course prejudice and personal desire to shift the outcome could cloud the issue. Therefore we need several people to test each model of jacket. I think maybe with 50 responses we could maybe collect enough info to see a trend.

This also gives people a chance to read that someone says "Hey I was cold at 40 degrees and I thought this should have kept me warm at 20". That way readers will have a real idea of what to expect from the expensive new jackets. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Like I say - its the underclothes not the down jacket that keeps you "cozy". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Jimshaw (01/26/08 06:37 PM)
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#88120 - 01/26/08 11:05 AM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I don't consider a down shell to be a stand alone item. I use mine as one component of a system, and it functions very well so long as I take measures to counteract its shortcomings. It is a Feathered Friends Volant, unfortunately I do not remember which shell material it has. It weighs in at 18.4 ounces. The snap on hood weighs 3.1 ounces and is well worth the weight.

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#88121 - 01/26/08 11:08 AM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Paddy
Your right. I think maybe a longsleeved tee shirt and heavy cotton sweat pants would be better, however we cannot get into how different systems affect it - its too complicated
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#88122 - 01/26/08 11:10 AM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
But don't you think testing a down shell over a tee shirt is a bit like testing a pair of boots with thin socks?

I generally wear the down over a long sleeved, midweight merino zip tee.

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#88123 - 01/26/08 11:51 AM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Jim, I have a TNF Nuptse which I wore last night for stroll around my neighborhood. Temps in the low 50's high 40's maybe. Quite toasty.

As you know, my other parka is my TNF Baltoro/Himalayan (the big red one)-should be good down to -20F or so, even for me.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#88124 - 01/26/08 12:26 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: TomD]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Paddy, I understand what yer saying, but that destroys any actual test of the jackets themselves... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

TomD
Your Nuptse is about like my old jacket. They were considered to be "20 degree" jackets. I have been wearing mine this week over a sweatshirt with sweat pants and wind shells and been warm enough at 20 degrees, but with a tee shirt under it, I'm not so sure.

As Paddy says - a jacket is part of a system, BUT often people are wearing just the jacket and wonder why they are cold. I am merely seeking some way of comparing a 10 ounce jacket with a 20 ounce jacket of a different down weight. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And as Babybunny stated - these marmot 800 down jackets aren't as warm as they're "supposed to be".
where do they break down? If its zero in the morning wil your jacket and system work? How about minus 40? Someplace there is an envelope. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Paddy, maybe you can come up a different set of guidelines for a test so widely dispersed people (with the same gear) can compare jackets in actual use. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#88125 - 01/26/08 12:39 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Jim, I don't know about 20F in a Nupste, not me anyway. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's why I drag along the big one. Plus I toss the big one over my bag for some extra warmth.

Hey, If I am wearing the Nuptse in LA, that should say something about ratings.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#88126 - 01/26/08 03:47 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Ok jim, I'm in - I have an MEC frobisher with hood. However, we're expecting to get hammered from the NWT by monday, so the high is supposed to be -25C and blizzading like the dickens.. I'll do as you suggest and post a report then..

Mind you I think I'll frostbite my butt - wearing jeans in that kind of weather is for cheese eating high school kids....
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
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#88127 - 01/26/08 05:33 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3570
Loc: Texas
TNF Nuptse for me....found it on sale three weeks ago for $75 and snatched it up....Sports Authority had black ones for $200 and my green one for $75....I was about to make my own but couldn't pass this one up. It has what that TNF calls an "emergency hood" which is simple un-insulated ripstop.

Anyway, I do consider my down jacket as a 'stand-alone' item and it stays by the back door. Yesterday was about 35 degrees here and I went out to work in the yard. Plenty toasty with nothing underneath but a long sleeve tee shirt. Unzipped it after awhile. This jacket comes down below my belt about 5 inches. It's also 'over stuffed' with 700 fp down, and quite puffy. I've worn it fishing in 15 mph wind/40deg., jeans down below, and found it to be perfectly warm.

These jackets weight 24 oz. which isn't considered light weight but for a stand alone, it's very light for the warmth it provides. In fact, if worn in the car, it's too warm. Gimme my wool Pea Coat for that. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#88128 - 01/26/08 06:17 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: phat]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Phat,
don't go out in that weather in jeans please. Wear something appropriate but not too warm on your legs.

I was just out to the store and its a cold windy night - its been snowing. I was wearing sweat pants and sweat shirt and the old 25 ounce 550 down sweater and I wasn't warm. I came home and put on some rain shells over the legs and went back out. The rain pants came up the long jacket and sealed the bottom. I was thinking that I would not be warm if I wasn't moving around and I thought it was around 25 degrees - nope around 38 and windy.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#88129 - 01/26/08 07:16 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
brownwetdog Offline
member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 116
Loc: Sawtooths, Idaho
Hi Jim, I'm not sure I entirely understand your survey, but I'll play along <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I own an old Mountain Hardware down jacket (8 years old maybe?). 100% sturdy polyester shell with 650 down fill that looks to be about 3 inches thick- no hood. It weighs in at approximately 22 ounces. I go to this baby whenever it is 10 degrees or less. This coat is WARM. No question. I don't need to walk around the block to know that. I'll only use it to ski in if it is around zero degrees, because otherwise, its too warm for active use. And as described in another thread, I have a Nunatak Skaha Plus down jacket (800 goose down) weighing in at 11 ounces. Intuitively, I know it won't be as warm as my wonderful and far more heavy Mountain Hardware. I don't need to walk around the block to test that out.

The part I'm not clear on is how me wearing these two jackets around the block will give information? I know the old Mountain Hardwear will be warmer (and considerably heavier.) I think I'm missing the concept you want to convey. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The trade off for me is the weight. For less weight, I can carry my 11 ounce down jacket (insulating layer) AND my raincoat that goes over it, if needed. As others have described, my down jacket is part of a system.

I've never hiked with my down jacket on. When hiking I exert enough energy that at times I... um.... glow! (OK, maybe sweat.) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I usually wear a synthetic tee or shirt. I also have a windshirt (Go Lite Wisp w/ hood) that goes over the shirt. Very good combo for me! If I am still cold beyond that, I'll put my raincoat on over the other two layers, but that is pretty rare. When I get to camp, that is when the down jacket will come out, if cold. I can always put my raincoat overtop of the down jacket, if I need additional wind protection. I've also used the down coat occasionally for extra warmth when sleeping.

Carol

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#88130 - 01/27/08 09:19 AM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: brownwetdog]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi BWD
I guess what I was trying to do is gonna be too difficult, BUT your description of the functional difference between your 650 and 800 jackets is a VALUABLE comparison and if you don't need to walk around the block because you KNOW, thats adequate in my book.

(as you say) an 11 ounce 800 down jackets is not as warm as a heavier 650 down jacket. So why the push for 800 down?
Jim
11 ounces really? I haven't kept up with this because my old gear serves me well and I'm not shopping for new gear. Wow that must mean about 4 to 5 ounces of 800 down in the jacket. No wonder its not as warm as you might wish.

I think personally I would not buy a coat with less than 8 ounces of good down, or 10 of cheaper down.
Jim


Edited by Jimshaw (01/28/08 08:04 PM)
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#88131 - 01/27/08 09:55 AM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I guess I just don't understand this rant. Would anyone expect an 11 ounce fleece jacket to be as warm as a 22 ounce one? I wouldn't.

If you put two otherwise identical 650 and 800 fill down jackets in my hands, I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference.

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#88132 - 01/27/08 01:30 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Allright, I have subjected myself to they typical blizzard weather here in the interest of
science. Short answer - as I suspected, I'm warm in my parka.

I just got back in.

The weather in Edmonton right now:

Temperature: -22C
Wind: From the north, 40km/h - gusting to 50/60km/h
Temperature With Wind Chill: bouncing between -35C to -45C depending on wind speed.
Relative humitdity: 77%
Dew Point: -24C

Oh, it's blizzarding too, so it's snowing during all that. visibility's probably around 500 meters. with snow coming down, and blowing. I have experiecned a lot of weather
like this, both here in the mountains. The snow is not like Jim's west coast snow,
the huge dumps of wet fun. It's dry dry powder that blows everywhere, like you get
in the high cold alpine or arctic. This is basically typical colder winter blizzard weather
for here. I can and have camped out in this stuff before, but it takes preparation and
is not for the inexperienced, faint of heart, or frankly imo, for ultralighting - you take
*lots* of clothing <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


What I was wearing:
1 pair wigwam liner socks
1 pair wigwam merino lite hikers
Merrell "Jungle Mocs" - leather
Zellers generic brand cotton tighty whiteys gaunch underwear
"Work Wearhouse" Black "Marks" brand jeans, with leather belt
1 cotton T-shirt - Souveneir with an Alien head on it from Roswell N.M.
1 pair of Ragg woool mitts
Older model MEC Frobisher parka
750FP down, was made in canada, but does NOT have gore windstopper. like the new models, just lightweight dwr ripstop. I've weighted it, and it's just over a kilogram in weight.size 2XXL

I normally would not have worn just jeans in this, but figured it would be a better
test with the rest of me being cold, and could my parka keep my core warm. Just to
reiterate jim's warning - this is probably not a good idea in general. I did it because
I knew I could sneak back to the house if my legs got bad, and I know how much
I can take in terms of this, I've been exposed to it a lot. Especially as a stupid kid
in the 80's wearing jordache designer jeans to school in -40 weather (God what
a stupid fashion fad for canada...)

The parka sits right at my belt line on the front, and has a lower back, extending down
over my butt, with the bottom of it covering my bum cheeks (this is a feature I absolutely
love in foul weather) It fits me well

I went outside at 1:24 PM and stood on my front step. watching the drifting snow cover everything. In the spirit of Jim's test, I elected not to take the usual scarf and balaclava
I'd take in this weather, using the hood and collar of the parka. I walked occasionally,
standing around my front porch area for about 10 minutes. At 1:27 I started to feel
a bit cool, but not uncofortably so, in my armpits. My fingers, if left exposed to the wind
would rapidly get cold as I wasn't wearing my usual overmitts to cut the wind and snow.

After 10 minutes, my legs were not to bad but cool - I normally would be at the least
wearing long underwear under my jeans for this, but I wasn't bad, My top was not toasty, but just fine. the armpits a bit cool, but allright. I had been alternating between facing the wind, and keeping my back to it.

At 1:34, I went for a walk around the block. Being a bit of a wuss I elected to go south
first, with my back to the blasts from the north. I was walking through sidewalks alternating between clear and drifts of powder up to just below my knees. Fortunately
the merells fit relatively snug, and don't let a lot of snow in while wading <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.
Generally quite a pleasant walk, I could exchange jokes with a few people out futilely shovelling their walks. turning north was the only bit of a problem, because without a face cover I really had to crank the parka's hood down to the collar, leaving about an inch
of opening with pretty much just my glasses there. However, this worked adequatly and
I didn't feel any of those familiar "tingles"

As I made it back to the house (after about a 20 minute walk) my thighs had that familiar tingle of being out without entirely adequate cover. My top and basic temperature was fine.

So short answer, sorry Jim, My MEC parka works fine through this test. My legs
were cold, and my fingers would have had problems being exposed, but I was warm
in the parka.

To be clear however, I want to keep a few things in perspective:
As far as my cold tolerance goes, I would describe it as, I was raised in this, took
public transit to school in it, and continue to do so to work. and as I say it I have "evolutionary ties to the walrus" in terms of my physique <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Were I intending to go out in this for real, I would not have worn jeans and merrells,
I would have had long johns, with fleecy pants and a shell, or more likely my hardcore
wool pants. I would have been wearing Kamik insulated boots that come up to my
upper calfs and tie off, I would have had overmitts over my ragg woolies, and My top
would have been layered, likely at least a merino shirt, and a fleece or two. Were
I actively going out that would have been a few more layers topped with a windblocking
jacket or anorak, which I wear when active. I take this parka out in the winter, but
typically don't hike in it, preferring to wear it in camp and under my sleeping bag.
(I prefer a nice parka like this to a mummy bag)

Anyway, I took a few pics, but I can't find my camera cable yet - If I do I'll edit the post
to add 'em here.


Edited by phat (01/27/08 01:45 PM)

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#88133 - 01/27/08 01:59 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: phat]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Phat
sounds like an adventure. Can you describe that frobisher parka?

I will say that so far it seems that most people with high number down are pretty happy with it. It seems the problem is with 11 ounce jackets.

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#88134 - 01/27/08 02:12 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Phat
sounds like an adventure. Can you describe that frobisher parka?

Other than wearing jeans, not hardly - I'll be catching the bus in this on monday <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As for the frobisher, The current model is here:
http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detai...ptEnabled=false
mine is a little different, it does NOT have gore windstopper, and so is a little bit
lighter, but made with a slightly better (it was adversised as 750 FP) grade of down
in theory at least. It is a lightweight "stay-puff-marshmallow" type mountaineering
sort of parka, with a zip-off hood and collar. as I've mentioned it comes down to my beltline
in front, and has a bit of a "tail", going down over my bum cheeks in the back.

Quote:

I will say that so far it seems that most people with high number down are pretty happy with it. It seems the problem is with 11 ounce jackets.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


This is *not* an 11 ounce jacket - it weighs a bit over a kilogram, so call it around 35 ounces.
it does compress into a stuff sack and pack nicely

I don't like to use it in high output activities, My usual topcover over many layers with that
is a midweight primaloft jacket or homemade anork.

When I pack it, I wear it in camp, or when sleeping - when sleeping, It's inside, and covered
with a synthetic bag so the freezing point doesn't end up inside the jacket - wetting out
down sucks.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#88135 - 01/27/08 08:02 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Ok here ya go -

the walk was down this sidewalk..



Picture of the parka -on me, during the test:



Wading through snow in street shoes and jeans sucks.

_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#88136 - 01/27/08 08:26 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Glad I did that this afternoon. it was only -23C - It's now 9:30pm and it's -29C - If ya add
the wind chill it's -45 C..

The bus will be fun in the morning. But trust me, it's better than driving yourself in this
stuff.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#88137 - 01/28/08 04:55 AM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: phat]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Could you please resize your photos?

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#88138 - 01/28/08 01:46 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: phat]
StepChld Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/07
Posts: 43
Loc: Garland, Texas
Wait...there were pics there..all I saw were smears of white, white and more white...oh yeah , a spash of orange. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
And to think here I sit and I'm upset b/c its cold...at 59F <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Never moon a werewolf

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#88139 - 01/28/08 02:36 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: StepChld]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3570
Loc: Texas
I too was wondering what was wrong with Phat's pictures. All washed out with white stuff.

"And to think here I sit and I'm upset b/c its cold...at 59F"

Yes. Freezing. Down from 62 yesterday, of course I'm way down south in DeSoto. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#88140 - 01/28/08 04:36 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
Serac Offline
member

Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 101
Loc: Washington State
Well, I wear mine pretty regularly for half hour walks, nearly every night. It's been near 0F here recently, and I typically just wear my "lounge clothes" (sweatpants and a long sleeved T-shirt) under the jacket. I do throw on some windpants over the sweats, and I use wool mittens too. This is my coat (not made anymore):
Coat

It's not ultralight. I wanted it for winter camping trips and specificlly a hood and longer waist. Weighs 16oz by my scales.
_________________________
"There is more to life than increasing it's speed" - Gandhi

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#88141 - 01/28/08 06:11 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Serac]
kbennett Offline
member

Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 820
Loc: north carolina
Jim,

I have often thought that my old 600-fill TNF down sleeping bag was warmer than the 800+ fill WM replacement. Heavier, yes -- but about the same loft, and warmer. I wonder if there are more, smaller air spaces in the 600-fill down to collect and keep warm air.

Everyone says that LOFT = WARMTH. That 8 inches of loft is the same warmth no matter what. Well, here's a thought experiment: consider the amazing, yet rare, million-fill-power down. That means one ounce fills a million cubic inches. Great stuff -- a quarter of an ounce is enough for a winter bag lofting to 8 inches, which should be just as warm as my current winter bag. Well, that's crazy.

Somewhere between 550-fill, 800-fill, and 1,000,000-fill down, we run out of actual insulation. I don't know what that point might be -- it could be that we've already reached it, which is why the ultra-light super-high-fill down products don't feel as warm. But that's just a guess.

Oh, and my down jacket is an old Sierra Designs 600-fill with the stretchy baffles and lots of nice warm down. Easily warm into the teens over a long sleeve shirt. The only downside is the hood isn't insulated. It weighs a pound and a half, which I have no problem carrying in the winter.
_________________________
--Ken B

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#88142 - 01/29/08 11:41 AM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: Jimshaw]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
Hey Jim,
You sure like picking on my lightweight stuff <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.

From posts below:
ď(as you say) an 11 ounce 800 down jackets is not as warm as a heavier 650 down jacket. So why the push for 800 down?Ē

Well, the 1st thing that comes to mind--- itís warmer! If your 650 down jacket and 850 down jacket both weigh 12oz, obviously the 850 will have higher loft (if built right).

ďAnd as Babybunny stated - these marmot 800 down jackets aren't as warm as they're "supposed to be".Ē

His jacket wasnít a marmot. It was a Montbell. And it appears they corrected this deficiency by using more baffles. So it appears that is a poor test comparison.

Your ďexperimentĒ is actually something I do quite often. I like doing this with all my gear. Itís best to know the limits of your coat in all conditions before going out. I donít have a ďlong sleeve T-ShirtĒ except for a 200 weight long john. But using that, standing still for 10 minutes, my 12oz WM Flight Large jacket keeps my torso comfortable at 20F with a 0-15mph wind. The shock-cord waist is cinched to prevent up drafts. For 15-40mph winds, I need to don my 3oz Montbell Large windbreaker over the Flight. At which case, Iím also comfortable down to 15F. For 0-15F, 0-40mph wind, underneath the Flight, I put on my 10oz medium Montbell Thermawrap action jacket. This is a very warm combo and I rarely hike like that unless Iím in a real high wind.

Thus for 25oz, not counting the skin layer, you can have a very warm system; and itís adaptable from 0F to 55F. The WM Flight is more prone to rips than the jackets you deal with. But itís not that hard to treat accordingly.

Good luck in your experiments <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />.

-Barry

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#88143 - 01/29/08 02:05 PM Re: Survey - how warm is your down jacket? [Re: BarryP]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Barry
"Well, the 1st thing that comes to mind--- itís warmer! If your 650 down jacket and 850 down jacket both weigh 12oz, obviously the 850 will have higher loft (if built right)."
________________________________________
loft only approximately equals warmth. Loft is a first order thing, a finished garment is a higher order design where loft is only a component. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Problem is that the same garment does not have the same weight of down. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> As the loft increases the amount they use decreases. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />Thus end up with the "same virtual stuffing", not more. Manufacturers will say that there is an ideal amount, but then they are trying to save money BY selling you high loft down.

Someone - sorry don't remember who, was making an analogy of one million loft down, means they would use even less of it. Doesn't mean it would be any warmer because the manufacturers would change how they use it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

__________________________________
Hey - I'm not picking on anybody or anything. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
This was a survey <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />- meaning other people tell us there experience. It seems that high loft down people are happy with it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Itseems that 650 loft down people are happy with it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />So if the weight is less and the garment is rugged enough for your use and you want to spend the money, - go for the UL high loft model. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> BUT people with 650 down LL Bean jackets are just as happy with them.


Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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