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#87832 - 01/23/08 01:36 PM anti freeze
strongone Offline
member

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 166
Loc: North Carolina
On a recent 3 day trip, the temp was never above 10 degrees, and my water froze in the bottle. What you do or use to prevent frozen water? Limit weight gain, please.

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#87833 - 01/23/08 04:59 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Heat.

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#87834 - 01/23/08 05:31 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: Paddy_Crow]
strongone Offline
member

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 166
Loc: North Carolina
haven't figured out how to carry fire in pack yet <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
19e to kincora last weekend


Edited by strongone (01/23/08 07:41 PM)

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#87835 - 01/23/08 05:51 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
The only additive I can think of that's safe for human consumption and lowers the freezing point would be good ol' ethanol.

So, if you want to spike your drinking water (all day...) that might work!

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
- John

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#87836 - 01/23/08 07:02 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods
Just where exactly did you carry your water bottle? In your pack? On the outside of your pack? If you can carry it inside your jacket (especially if it is a flexible bladder rather than a hard side bottle like a nalgene) there should be enough heat to keep it from freezing, IMO.

Tango

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#87837 - 01/23/08 07:42 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: Tango61]
strongone Offline
member

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 166
Loc: North Carolina
tried bottle inside coat, but still froze

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#87838 - 01/23/08 07:46 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: Xelif]
strongone Offline
member

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 166
Loc: North Carolina
drank all the vodka, thats what i would do, but my 16 yo son? dont think so!
any other ideas

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#87839 - 01/23/08 09:31 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Insulated steel bottle or Nalgene in an OR cozy. My bottle is made by Liquid Solutions-about $20. It will keep hot liquid at least warm all day long in about 10F weather. I made a cozy for it out of a blue pad.

The Nalgene/OR combo works about half as well, but it works.

Or-carry a small canister stove-I do that on day hikes. Mine is a Primus Micron in a Primus pot that I run off a small Snowpeak canister. Everything fits in the pot. Not the lightest solution, but for the temps I am in, works quite well.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#87840 - 01/24/08 09:06 AM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
jaiden Offline
member

Registered: 02/15/07
Posts: 123
Quote:
On a recent 3 day trip, the temp was never above 10 degrees, and my water froze in the bottle. What you do or use to prevent frozen water? Limit weight gain, please.


I think dissolving most things in water will reduce the freezing point. Salt would work, but Gatorade would taste better. I see on some cycling forums people recommend making double strength gatorade for this purpose.

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#87841 - 01/24/08 11:16 AM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
How cold was the water when you put it in your coat? If it still froze, were you warm enough? I am a little perplexed how this could have happened, but I'm not disputing you.

What size/style was your water container?

You could try an insulated cozy for your water, but bear in mind that if your water is cold to begin with, a cozy may only provide marginal help. You could use a flexible flask with a cozy and a hand or toe warmer dropped inside the cozy to provide heat.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#87842 - 01/24/08 11:20 AM Re: anti freeze [Re: midnightsun03]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Like they said above, and; you can carry the water insulated inside your pack, where, if it freezes, you should've been in camp with a fire anyhoo <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#87843 - 01/24/08 11:22 AM Re: anti freeze [Re: Earthling]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
LOL Earthling... thats about my take on it too!

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#87844 - 01/24/08 01:51 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
I always use an insulated cozy, keep the water bottles in my coat or sleeping bag and , when they are left out in questionable weather i just turn them upside down so the bottom freezes first. Do not try to sleep with any other bottle if it is not a Nalgene...they leak!
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

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#87845 - 01/24/08 02:02 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
I've used cozies, but they only work slow the freezing process. A thermos is definitely the most sure-fire way. In the really cold weather we've had the last 3 or so weeks, I made three trips and used my thermos on each. It is nice to have hot water for soup or cider at lunch to help warm up again.

Beyond that, boil a liter and put it in your nalgene, then sleep with it. Mine made it through the night each time and gave me enough water to reboil and add to the other containers in which some water froze (excluding my thermos, which was fine). This let me thaw all the ice in all containers, a huge benefit.

The other big plus is wide-mouth bottles. I don't carry full-size nalgenes usually, but will do so in sub-freezing weather. The wide mouth is easy for pouring boiling liquid and they stand up well to such heat.
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#87846 - 01/24/08 02:51 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: Bearpaw]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
There are a few things you can do.

1. Wine skin under sweater. This is a very good method. If it freezes under your clothing you've got far more serious problems than dehydration.

2. Rely on snow for your source of water, when you need it. This has the advantage on less weight carried and works well with hobbo stoves but not so well with a Kelly Kettle. Can be hard on fuel if there are other sources of water, but if snow is your primary source you might as use the just-in-time approach. Perhaps thats a poor use of that phrase

3. Corked aluminum flasks so that you can heat them if they freeze solid. Aluminum flasks can be tricky to clean, You can get these aluminum Jolt cans that work, and you could used removable foam snugglies. Not an off the shelf solution but worth playing around with, especially with the concerns over BPA and all that. I think some aluminum flasks are coated with plastic though and I'm not sure what that does. Probably not good.

I like a combination of 1 and 2 for winter, but I would still like something I can drink tea out of while hiking, that I can clean out after it having milk and honey in it. So I'm working on a system using all three.

p.s.
A hatchet can be handy in some cases for chopping through ice but is normally not worth the weight, and time. Still good to carry in winter if your in the woods and it really went super cold, like -30, or if you fell through the ice or something like that. A hatchet and a few nails and some cordage you can make a warm shelter and fire a lot faster if you ever needed to. I carry it midwinter for that reason, and because its handy for other little things even if not really needed, like tapping in a nail to hang a candle lantern or tarp tiedown, or for setting rabbit snares. If you do your winter hiking in woods that you might as well be prepared to take full advantage of it if needed. Depends on the woods. By the time you chop through you can usually have snow melted anyway. Sometimes an axe makes sense for a large group though, especially for a stationary camp. or if you want to try some ice fishing.


Edited by JAK (01/24/08 03:09 PM)

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#87847 - 01/24/08 03:08 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: strongone]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada


As others have mentioned, an insulated nalgene bottle or thermos.

In winter I melt snow for water, storing in a cozied nalgene for a "while"
If I'm active (like snowshoeing along) I will often have a water bladder in my pack right
next to my back - this tends to get enough heat to stay liquid even in -30C,
although the hose and bite valve will freeze if there is any water kept in it. (you
can use an insulating sleeve on the hose for some protection for that)
_________________________
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My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
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#87848 - 01/24/08 03:13 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: phat]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
The upside down in the snow trick is a good one when camped. I suffered two frozen nalgene bottles before I learned to keep them from freezing. It was a dire situation. I still don't like the possibility even though its preventable. Besides, I'm going back to wineskins for reasons of nostalgia. But it is hard to find them nowadays. Candian Tire doesn't seem to carry them anymore. I'm thinking of making on using a Nalgene canteen. Shapes a little awkward.

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#87849 - 01/24/08 04:10 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: jaiden]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
jaiden
Dissolving anything in water lowers its freezing point and the only variable is how concentrated the solution is. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I might suggest dissolving some hydrogen hydroxide in your water... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim YMMV
P.S. If your water frezes in your pack at 10 degrees then it was on the outer edge. Wrap it in a bag and put it inside some spare clothes or something deep inside the pack, BUT this shouldn't be required at 10 degrees.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#87850 - 01/24/08 04:36 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: Jimshaw]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Jim... the OP said he had the bottle inside his coat and it still froze.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#87851 - 01/24/08 06:36 PM Re: anti freeze [Re: midnightsun03]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Midnight
Maybe he's a vampire... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#87852 - 01/24/08 06:41 PM Re: anti freeze hmm [Re: strongone]
strongone Offline
member

Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 166
Loc: North Carolina
At night was not a problem. I dipped two 1 l. aquafina water bottles from stream (less than 35 degrees) treated with micropur tablet (other guys pump froze) and put next to fire for infrared heating and placed in sleeping bag. Good the next morning. Refilled from stream treated and then hit trail @ 9 with bottle inside my windbreaker and the other zipped in side pocket--temps below 10 degrees. By noon serious ice formation on inside bottle, by 3, slushy rock ice.

Inside pack not an option for I need to drink water during hike. I am already carrying 30# skin out, so I am not adding steel thermos bottles. (I was the kid who licked monkey bars during winter so I donít do metal in winter anymore.)

I knocked any bladder due to hoes freezing. I donít like to cook snow as it is waste of fuel (using alky stove, don't have pocket rocket) and time especially for liter every 4 hours when stream is on the away. Staying in camp was worst possible situation since we had limited wood, food, fuel and had it keep moving to stay warm and make way points.

So far, I like the Gatorade idea cause I need the sugar/salts which means I get three uses for item. Liked the hand warmer idea but I think the large thermal mass of very cold water would suck the heat down flat. The cozy idea is most practical and doable, not much weight gain but single use item. Vodka, well at least I get two uses if i put olive in bottle too.

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#87853 - 01/24/08 10:15 PM Re: anti freeze hmm [Re: strongone]
Eric Offline
member

Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 294
Loc: The State of Jefferson
I think I see the problem here. The water was cold to start with and you had it in the pocket of your outer layer. If you move it a layer or two closer to your body you should be able to keep it warm.

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#87854 - 01/25/08 05:13 AM Re: anti freeze [Re: Bearpaw]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1726
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I spent 6 months in the field in Antarctica in the late 60's. We had to melt snow or ice for all of our water. We burned nearly a pint of white gas a day including cooking. We used thermos bottles only for water that would be quickly drunk, not for storage. Water in a thermos will freeze, given time, and once frozen is a real problem to get out. We would just keep a lightweight stove handy and melt snow when we needed it.

The time spent on "water management' is just a part of cold weather camping and is time that needs to be spent.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#87855 - 01/25/08 06:27 AM Re: anti freeze hmm [Re: strongone]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
At night was not a problem. I dipped two 1 l. aquafina water bottles from stream (less than 35 degrees) treated with micropur tablet (other guys pump froze) and put next to fire for infrared heating and placed in sleeping bag. Good the next morning. Refilled from stream treated and then hit trail @ 9 with bottle inside my windbreaker and the other zipped in side pocket--temps below 10 degrees. By noon serious ice formation on inside bottle, by 3, slushy rock ice.

Inside pack not an option for I need to drink water during hike. I am already carrying 30# skin out, so I am not adding steel thermos bottles. (I was the kid who licked monkey bars during winter so I donít do metal in winter anymore.)

I knocked any bladder due to hoes freezing. I donít like to cook snow as it is waste of fuel (using alky stove, don't have pocket rocket) and time especially for liter every 4 hours when stream is on the away. Staying in camp was worst possible situation since we had limited wood, food, fuel and had it keep moving to stay warm and make way points.

So far, I like the Gatorade idea cause I need the sugar/salts which means I get three uses for item. Liked the hand warmer idea but I think the large thermal mass of very cold water would suck the heat down flat. The cozy idea is most practical and doable, not much weight gain but single use item. Vodka, well at least I get two uses if i put olive in bottle too.
As the other poster mentioned it would help if the water was hot to begin with, and you stored it under more layers. But I think the best answer for your situation is a wineskin, plus a gatoraid bottle. Also I would stick with the alky stove if I were you, but practice small fires with hobbo stoves also. Good skill for winter camping. I went out this morning before sun up and went over to this island just for the fun of it and to test some stuff out. It was -21C and -23C when I got back. I got the bic light working, and got the hobbo stove burning, but it sucked so I wasn't able to melt all my snow. No oats for this lad. So I need to work on my hobbo skills for really cold weather.

I think I will build an insulated hobbostove. A friend from Texas sent me some stuff. I still owe him some maple syrup. Still working on the stove Bill. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Here are some photos:
Sorry my photography skills suck just as bad as my hobbo stove skills.



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#87856 - 01/25/08 10:51 AM Re: anti freeze hmm [Re: strongone]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
I didn't see it mentioned yet, so I'll throw in my hat. You say you don't use a bladder because the hose freezes. In the winter I use a cycling hydration pack that I wear backwards under my jacket. It has a short hose that I keep tucked in at my neck. I've never had it freeze, even when the temperature was -10F. I also don't have to open my jacket for a drink which might be a problem with a bota bag (wineskin).

I heat the water until it's hot to the touch before putting it in the bladder. Then it helps keep me warm while I'm relatively inactive in camp. If you try this, you must at least warm the water to body temperature. Cold water under your jacket is going to be uncomfortable. At worst it could lead to hypothermia.

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