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#87501 - 01/19/08 03:37 PM SPOT - A New PLB Solution?
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
SPOT

It's a 7 oz $150 device that can summon help via the Globalstar satellite network. You need a $100/year service plan to use it, although a lower-cost monthly plan may exist. Device uses GPS to determine coordinates which are sent via satellite to the company's servers in Milpitas, CA. Users can view your location continuously or only when you press a button on the device. A 911 button summons emergency help to your location. Another button sends a preset message to up to 5 people (like "hey, I pressed this button so I'm OK"). Still another button sends a similar message that asks those people for non-emergency assistance.

Sounds neat - a cheap PLB! But there are some potential caveats. One is that it uses the balky Globalstar network. Failures have left the system with less than 100% coverage. Satellite communication also requires a relatively unblocked line-of-sight between the transmitter and receiver. And GPS is notoriously unreliable under heavy tree cover or in canyons.

Another is that if you let your service plan lapse, pressing 911 will only exercise your finger. This may soon change, as the company may be forced to respond under the same laws that govern cell phones.

Then there's the $100/year charge itself. If you buy a PLB, you pay your $500 and that's it. No yearly fees. If you plan on using a device like this for more than 4 years and use it only for emergency situations, you're better off buying a true PLB.

I don't know why the company didn't put a keyboard on the thing. It would definitely be worth the $100/year cost if I could send short text messages. One example is when I turned my ankle and shacked up for 2 days until the swelling went down. If I could have sent a "Will not need pickup til Tuesday" message, I could have saved a friend a few days of worry. If this was sold as primarily a satellite texting device instead of an emergency aid device, a lot of the shortcomings could be overlooked.

The bottom line is that I might buy one for my family's peace-of-mind. If someone monitored my position daily, they could sound the alarm if I remain in the same place for more than a day. At the very least it would give search parties a place to start, even if I failed to send a 911. Hopefully the company will address some of the product's shortcomings as this product matures.

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#87502 - 01/19/08 03:54 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
Sounds pretty cool!
The $100 a year charge seems a bit much though.
Hopefully they pass that law that even if a cellphone (or PLB) doesn't have a contract 911 will still work. That would really cut down costs.
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#87503 - 01/19/08 07:43 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
brownwetdog Offline
member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 116
Loc: Sawtooths, Idaho
Hi NiytOwl,

My husband and I finally narrowed down the choices of a PLB to the same one - the Spot Messenger. Regarding the lack of a keyboard - I agree completely! However, if I've understood it correctly, one feature of the Spot Messenger is that you can use a variety of combination taps to send a specific, pre-determined message. For instance, tapping "OK, OK, Help, OK" could mean "I am fine, but running one day late". The combination of taps just has to be agreed upon in advance by the sender and the home unit receiving. And if I'm really running a day late, that pre-determined message combined with the daily GPS check in showing my progress less than what my trip itinerary shows, should give the home unit a good sense of my whereabouts and timing.

You make a good point about the signal (unreliability). So just have to hope one of us doesn't break a leg in dense tree cover <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We figured we'd buy it and activate it this spring at the start of backpacking season for us. In our case, its really only for use when one of us is backpacking alone and off trail or in very remote areas. I'm also pleased about the weight - much less than just a few years ago for an emergency locator.

Since we do plan on getting it, I'll report back in on how it works. Carol

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#87504 - 01/19/08 07:57 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: brownwetdog]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Sounds great Carol! Since you appear ready to buy, there's a brand new SPOT unit I'm watching over on Ebay currently going for $100 + shipping (seller got two for Christmas). Also there's a PLB with GPS going for $300. Neither have any bids as of the time of this post. I'm still trying to decide between the two systems, so I'm just seeing how the bidding goes on those items.

I look forward to your review.

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#87505 - 01/20/08 12:15 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: cheap]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Personally I'm not too keen on the subscription thing - while it is kinda nice that the SPOT can report back even when it's *not* an emergency - just to keep people aware of your progress if they're interested - it's a feature I don't think I really need.

I've got my eye on the MicroFix units - since they and the technology they use seem to be pretty much worldwide - I may eventually decide I'm wealthy and buy something like the Microfix 406 Nice part, no subscription, but no "trail reports" back to loved ones or anything like that - basically you buy it hoping to never activate it
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#87506 - 01/20/08 03:43 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: phat]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Quote:

Personally I'm not too keen on the subscription thing - while it is kinda nice that the SPOT can report back even when it's *not* an emergency - just to keep people aware of your progress if they're interested - it's a feature I don't think I really need.

I've got my eye on the MicroFix units - since they and the technology they use seem to be pretty much worldwide - I may eventually decide I'm wealthy and buy something like the Microfix 406 Nice part, no subscription, but no "trail reports" back to loved ones or anything like that - basically you buy it hoping to never activate it


I'd rather have a Sat Phone if I just want to keep in touch with anyone.

I'd trust a PLB before a Spot, but that's just my opinion. What I'd like to know is why PLBs are so darned expensive. The Spot uses similar technology and is far cheaper.


Edited by TomD (01/20/08 11:07 PM)
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#87507 - 01/20/08 09:06 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: TomD]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Quote:
What I'd like to know is why they are so darned expensive.


Actually, I thought they were quite cheap for what's essentially a satellite phone without audio. What I'd really like to know is why PLBs are so expensive. They can't be any more complicated than SPOT. If PLBs were $150 I would have owned one last year. Is there some kind of restriction on making PLBs that don't last for 24 hours while floating in raging seas? If it was just water resistant and ran for 8 hours on 4 AA lithium batteries, would that lower the price?

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#87508 - 01/20/08 11:06 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
That's what I meant-why are PLBs so expensive? I'm going to make that a bit more clear.

My guess is that Spot may be cheaper because they are using the cel phone business model-cheap devices, but monthly fees to generate income. PLBs are a one time sale.

Even Sat Phone plans are coming down in price, so in a few years, we may all have one of them-look at Globalstar's website.


Edited by TomD (01/20/08 11:12 PM)
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Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#87509 - 01/21/08 01:01 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: TomD]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Quote:
My guess is that Spot may be cheaper because they are using the cel phone business model-cheap devices, but monthly fees to generate income.


Or the game console model - the device is worthless (can't even use the 911 feature) without purchasing a service plan. Most likely it's an economy of scale thing. The company seems to think this will sell to a larger audience than PLBs, whose capability they downplay in their advertising (see the TV ads with Les Stroud on the SPOT site). If sales continue to climb, maybe the PLB manufacturers will take note and drop their prices.

After reading the online PDF manual it appears SPOT was intended to have a text messaging capability, so maybe it's not too farfetched to hope for that feature on the next model. IMO, that would sell the device (text from anywhere) better than the location feature. Heck, I pay $120/year for text messaging on my phone. What would be even better would be a tri-band version of SPOT, with the addition of the 406 Mhz Cospas-Sarsat and 121.5 Mhz homing signals. That would make it a true PLB.

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#87510 - 01/22/08 01:06 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: brownwetdog]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
" [color:"blue"]if I've understood it correctly, one feature of the Spot Messenger is that you can use a variety of combination taps to send a specific, pre-determined message. For instance, tapping "OK, OK, Help, OK" could mean "I am fine, but running one day late"[/color]"

I've seen this "make a code table for it" idea before, but not to my knowledge from anyone that actually owns a unit. I'm going on a backpack next week with a friend that actually does own one, and when I put this to him (suggesting we work out a code table in advance), he didn't think it was practical, apparantly there's about a 15-minute delay between when you can send signals, the unit resends a button press multiple times to ensure delivery. So if you were willing to spread your button presses out over a lo-o-ong period maybe you could work out a code, but at least from what he told me this doesn't seem practical.

Would be nice, and of course, even nicer if the other poster is right that at some point they'll come out with a text messaging solution. Ideal for me would be a bluetooth keyboard that I could dual use with both SPOT and my smartphone ... !
Or a version of SPOT that has a slide-out keyboard like some cell phones do, or, really whatever allowed for sending some actual details.

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#87511 - 01/22/08 07:16 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: BrianLe]
brownwetdog Offline
member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 116
Loc: Sawtooths, Idaho
<< apparently there's about a 15-minute delay between when you can send signals >>

Brian, thanks for that real world information. I relayed it to my husband (he wants the Spot Messenger for his birthday) and he is chewing it over. I suspect he will still ask for it. His initial response was keep the code table limited to 3 taps (45 minutes) which could be sent easily over dinner and later while staring at the stars. Also, it seems to make sense to limit how many codes to pre-plan, maybe 1 - 3 maximum and not try to make the Spot Messenger into a text messenger, which it isn't.

I'm with you on the bluetooth keyboard that I could dual use with both SPOT and my smartphone ... ! Carol

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#87512 - 01/30/08 06:35 AM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: brownwetdog]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
I just came back from a trip where SPOT was used by my hiking friend. He set it up in advance so that the "I'm OK" messages generated automatic email to my wife, and his wife ... sounds like a list of multiple people can get that message. It gives the time the message was sent in GMT (Greenwich time) and the decimal latitude & longitude, and a link to google maps of the location, plus it gives the name of the nearest town and distance away from that.

He also left it turned on, hanging on his pack strap and it periodically reported location automatically that way. One person at home can get that auto-location plot, and I believe put that up on google earth to see exactly where the unit has been (so long as it's on and has a clear view of the sky).

FWIW anyway.

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#87513 - 01/30/08 07:09 AM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: BrianLe]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Some not-so-good results from SPOT--it doesn't seem to work in the forest:

Report on Backpackgeartest.org

As reported in the BackpackingLight forum (this section can be accessed for free)
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#87514 - 01/30/08 01:59 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: OregonMouse]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Nope, it doesn't work well in the forest. They actually tell you that on the findmespot website if you read between the lines. They say, "clear view of the sky", which translates into, "doesn't work in buildings, caves, under heavy forest canopy, or in steep-sided canyons." The problem is that it uses microwaves to communicate with the satellites. Microwaves are quickly absorbed by most materials (hence microwave ovens), so you have to be able to see the sky - the more sky the better. I would bet that SPOT also has trouble in extremely wet weather because of this (like DirecTV reception - Rain=Freezing/Snow). Essentially you take all the problems that GPS devices have obtaining a fix, then compound them with the problems that satellite phones have with maintaining a connection and you have all the problems that SPOT faces.

The more I hear and read about this unit, the more I'm convinced that it is primarily a fair weather tracker/messager. The emergency feature isn't reliable enough to sell the unit on that ability alone.

If you plan to buy it as a "peace of mind" device for your loved ones it's probably worth the expense. If you plan to buy it primarily as a "save my butt" device - get a real PLB instead. I'm going to wait until SPOT II (or whatever they're going to call it) comes out with all the features that should have been on this unit (two-way messaging, message confirmation, real PLB).

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#87515 - 03/08/08 03:00 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
BobEFord Offline
member

Registered: 01/28/08
Posts: 72
Loc: SE AZ
Once age makes me start acting like the individual in this link below, I will probably invest in the lightest, cheapest and best range device available.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/parknews/upload/First%20time%20use%20of%20PLB%2007.07.pdf

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#87516 - 05/31/08 09:57 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
northernbcr Offline
member

Registered: 05/26/08
Posts: 125
Loc: bc/yukon border area
http://www.backpacker.com/cgi-bin/forums/ikonboard.cgi?act=Print;f=832107219;t=9991098278 there is some more info at this site my personal feeling is that the plb is the way to go it uses a proven sar system and the price over 5 years is the same

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#87517 - 05/31/08 11:05 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: northernbcr]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Thanks for that link. I was intrigued by the Field Tracker 2000 that was mentioned, but that's turning into a wash. Aside from the $990 price, the thing looks big and heavy.

Looks like a PLB is the only personal safety net that I can trust. Now it's just a matter of finding the smallest and lightest.

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#87518 - 06/03/08 10:28 AM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
bmisf Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 629
There's a big review that I took part in on backpackinglight.com this week as well:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/spot_satellite_personal_tracker.html

Bottom line: it is indeed not to be counted on for emergency use; I found it telling that, at the end of the review when the four of us who worked on the review were offered the chance to keep a Spot, none of us wanted it.

There are some people who are fine with its limitations, and those seem mainly to be folks who want a way to let friends and family know they're OK on a trip, but where the message not getting through won't be a problem. It will work better in open areas with no trees and no significant blockage from terrain, and if it's mounted on top of your pack (not in a pocket or on a belt).

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#87519 - 06/19/08 01:03 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
kspar Offline
newbie

Registered: 09/30/07
Posts: 3
I just received one as a graduation gift, and used it for 7 days on the Long Trail in VT. I only used it to send "okay" messages, but it did work as advertised. Only times that it had trouble was under dense forest cover, where a GPS would have trouble tracking as well. It would take at most 20 minutes to send a message.

I don't know if it is a good replacement for a PLB, but it does have the added benefit of being able to tell your loved ones that you are okay. The peace of mind for my mother and girlfriend is worth it. I would recommend it to a friend.

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#87520 - 06/20/08 03:29 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: kspar]
tpdwr Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 45
Loc: So. California - Murrieta
I have been using one for about 6 months and I agree it works as advertised. I also use it in the tracking mode at times and seems to work best tied to the top of my pack. I usually do that when I'm heading back to the car. Anyway, it provides a little peace of mind for my wife.

Don

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#87521 - 06/24/08 01:21 AM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
frediver Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 114
These pay services are a bad idea, soon they could be required.

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#87522 - 07/14/08 12:54 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: kspar]
wld_rthr_b_ridng Offline
member

Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 18
Loc: WV
My husband and I decided to invest in a SPOT tracker to comfort our parents while we're out and I have mixed feelings about its ability.

We were able to send several "OK" messages as long as we were standing in one place and there was a VERY thin canopy above us. The tracking function is very disappointing, we hiked three miles along a large stream and wasn't able to get one track marked. And being near a stream I would have thought that the canopy would have been open enough to get some signal out but nothing.

Because we were able to get the "OK" messages out we'll probably continue to use it to keep family feeling more at ease otherwise I'm really not sure that I would recommend it to anyone.

One thing that really annoys me about it is that there is no way to know if you actually got a message out unless you watch the dang thing without blinking for the 30 minutes it tries to send a message. It would be nice if the light changed color or something when a message is sent rather than just staying solid for a few seconds. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

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#87523 - 07/14/08 01:40 PM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: wld_rthr_b_ridng]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
The inability of SPOT to penetrate canopy is partly due to its extremely anemic antenna. Take a look at the antenna that Globalstar phones have - even with that they still recommend that you be in a clear area before trying to use it. The other reason it has so much trouble is because the satellites are seldom directly overhead. They rise above the horizon, peak, then drop back to the horizon. The lower the satellite is on the horizon, the more stuff the signal has to go through. Unless you have the good luck to hit a satellite when it's almost overhead, your signal will be too weak to be received.

Quote:
One thing that really annoys me about it is that there is no way to know if you actually got a message out...


Your SPOT cannot know if it successfully sent the message. It is a simplex tracking device, meaning that it can send data to the satellite but cannot receive anything.

If confirmation is what you need, Globalstar is currently offering really cheap unlimited satellite service - $40/month this year and $20/month for 2009 and 2010. You have to buy a phone, which isn't particularly cheap, and the service is far from reliable due to their broken satellite constellation. But if you can patiently wait 15 minutes for a 20-minute availability window, you can talk to and/or send email to your family. Buy the data cable and you can use a PDA to also upload pictures to your favorite photo site.

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#87524 - 07/18/08 10:32 AM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: wld_rthr_b_ridng]
bulrush Offline
member

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 132
Loc: Michigan
Sounds like the SPOT uses a patch antenna, which is simply a square of metal. Try getting something that uses a helix antenna. My GPS that had a patch antenna got NO reception under trees. However my newer model, Garmin 76csx, has a patch antenna and works much better.

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#87525 - 07/18/08 10:33 AM Re: SPOT - A New PLB Solution? [Re: NiytOwl]
bulrush Offline
member

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 132
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
SPOT

And GPS is notoriously unreliable under heavy tree cover or in canyons.


I'll repeat, the cheaper GPS models, under $250, are unreliable under tree cover. My 76csx works great under North American tree cover. I have not tried in in a tropical jungle, which typically is a bit more dense.

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