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#86481 - 01/08/08 06:48 PM bears
wvheaven85 Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/28/07
Posts: 5
Loc: west virginia
hey everyone! what are some views about bears held by backcountry hikers? do you arm yourself with bear mace or chance it? even though the chances are slim of being challenged by them, what do you do to be prepared for the "just in case" moment?

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#86482 - 01/08/08 07:15 PM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Welp, I live in Alaska so I have to deal with this everytime I got out backpacking here. Everytime for sure I have bear mace on me. I wouldn't want to leave without it. I've yet to use it but it'll be handy if I ever come into a situation where I'd need it. I do also have a .45 semi-auto pistol I just bought that I'll probably take along as well for a last resort kind of thing. I'd much rather have the bear run off with a burning face to live another day and think twice about bothering people than injure it unecessarily or pump eight rounds of ammo into hoping that puts it down.

So yes, carry bear mace as long as your in bear country. There's no reason not to and if you don't use it be happy if you had it just in case. It isn't as thought it wouldn't work in any other unsavory encounters you might have for the most part.

I also like to keep an open eye, nose and ear. I'd much rather know if and where the bears are around me so I can avoid them and have some knowledge of their presence. I not so worried about running into solo bears as much as I am about running into a sow with cubs. I've yet to run into them on the trail or see them at any close distance(less than 400 yards) and I don't want to. I've had plenty of 40-100 yards encounters with bears where we simply froze in place and talked to the bear calmly letting it know we were there. They have always thus far walked or run off and weren't seen again the entire time.

It is also going to depend on where you're hiking too. I'm more weary of bears in Yellowstone than up here in Denali. The bears in Yellowstone are more accustomed to people than the bears in Denali and probably have more access to food compared to Denali bears. Denali has strict rules compared to most NP's on their backcountry policies. Not a bad thing. The last time I was in Denali we encountered 14 bears along our 4 day hike, 6 of which were within 100 yards of us or less. None of the bears bothered outr camp at any point and one run in we had stopped to eat a protein bar for lunch when we saw a nice dark brown bear on the hill face 75 yards away from us. We simply looked at him and talked loudly and calmly and continued to eat. He just looked at us for 30 seconds and slowly made his way up the hill, looking back at us every once in a while before he disappeared over the top into the brush. He seemed as weary of us as were of him. I really would be less comfortable in that situation in a place like Yellowstone and more so a place like Yosemite.

So, I'd have to say as long as you do everything right, you probably won't have any negative encounters with bears. Doing everything right doesn't however mean things will go well between you and bears. There are those very few and rare events where they are almost inevitable no matter what you do, which is why we carry bear mace or some sort of defense.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#86483 - 01/08/08 07:33 PM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2837
Loc: Portland, OR
I live in Oregon, where the black bear population is generally very skittish of human contact and mostly make themselves scarce when they are aware of human presence. I've spotted several bears in the Oregon woods, but always they have been running away as fast as they could.

Hikers from California, especially those who hike in the central Sierras, will have a much different point of view, since their bears act very differently than our local Oregon bears do.

Montanans will have yet another perspective, I suspect, since they have both blacks and grizzlies.

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#86484 - 01/08/08 07:36 PM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods

Hello wheaven85,

If you use the search feature at the top of the page and search for bear in the title or in the body for the last year, you should get a lot of hits. You'll have to wade through all the ones about bear canisters.


What Matt says. That about sums it up. He should know since he lives with more of them than the rest of us.

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#86485 - 01/08/08 08:10 PM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I worry more about the bears at home who come around at midnight and try to knock off a garbage can and when you shine a light on them, they just casually walk off. Must not be the one I shot some birdshot at its feet from my .22 pistol years ago. That one did get the idea.

My last dog passed away 4 years ago, never had a problem with him or my other dogs that I have had with bears while bping. My dog and I have come across numerous sow and cub combos in the morning on bp trips and they split as soon as we all saw each other. I do get a little nervous when I see a bear during the day though, but that has been pretty rare. I think I would be on the alert if in AK, bping though, they grow them a little big up there. That would make me nervous.

I don't carry anything to ward bears off and don't foresee carrying anything in the near future either where I bp. Part of the adventure.

A little scary thinking about that family in Canada I believe it was, that was out along the river and that grizzly killed them all and the next boat that came by, went after them too. I would probable pack something in AK, just not here in CA for now anyway.

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#86486 - 01/08/08 08:14 PM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Just had another thought. Pot growers. I think people are in bigger danger from them than anything else out here in CA. Even locally here in the small county I live in, in N. CA, some guy barely escaped from being taken by a Mexican? National tending a pot garden. Those guys will just kill you and bury you somewhere, then leave, trashing the environment.

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#86487 - 01/08/08 09:19 PM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
I carry bear spray in Grizzly country, but not black bear country. I've only used bear cannisters in the Absarokas and Sierras. The rest of the time, I simply hang my food.

Grizzlies are a scary sort of noble experience. Granted, I can count on my fingers the number of times I've encountered them.

But black bears are mostly a pain in the butt. They are the junkie janitors of the backcountry, looking for the easiest meal and cleaning up and food waste or carcasses they find. Of course, here in the southeast, they tend to run at the first sight of hikers. It's in the middle of the night that you have to worry about them.
_________________________
http://www.trailjournals.com/BearpawAT99/

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#86488 - 01/08/08 11:15 PM Re: bears [Re: hikerduane]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
I think people are in bigger danger from them than anything else out here in CA. Even locally here in the small county I live in, in N. CA, some guy barely escaped from being taken by a Mexican? National tending a pot garden. Those guys will just kill you and bury you somewhere, then leave, trashing the environment.


Southern California is especially bad, but this is spreading everywhere in CA. I've had a friend or two find (empty) plantations in the off season, and some of them are pretty well developed. If it's a site operated by the Mexican Mafia (I'm serious... search news sites), and they're around, you run the risk of getting shot at with assault weapons. Some areas are allegedly protected by tripwires, traps, etc, and it's a good idea to be careful and stay clear if you see anything like cultivation, out in the back country. From what I've read, the Los Angeles area rangers are having enormous, life-threatening problems on a routine basis.

As for trashing the environment, it really ticks me off that the land is cleared, then used for effectively agriculture, with pesticides often used. Bah.
_________________________
- John

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#86489 - 01/09/08 09:45 AM Re: bears [Re: Xelif]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
I agree with the post above and Duane's intial post, not to jack the bear thread. Seems like the Park Service needs to confront this situation instead of raising hiker backcountry fees! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I can feel your pain about the gangs because they are encrounching into the suburbs near major cities all across the country <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> There should be open season on them for LE, no court wasting time, once a gangbanger always a gangbanger <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86490 - 01/09/08 10:08 AM Re: bears [Re: Earthling]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Gangbangers are the human equivalent of "problem" bears. You know how the story will end, it is just a question of when and where.

Why limit the open season to law enforcement? The Code of the West is the 3 S's - Shoot, Shovel and Shutup.

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#86491 - 01/09/08 10:12 AM Re: bears [Re: Earthling]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2837
Loc: Portland, OR
not to jack the bear thread

Too late. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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#86492 - 01/09/08 11:38 AM Re: bears [Re: ringtail]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
I agree Food, sounds like logical thinking if you ask me <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Agreed, this should be posted under 'Off Topic'. My posts can be moved by the powers that be if they want, as always..... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86493 - 01/10/08 05:53 PM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
Bears get talked about a lot in hiking forums. I do most of my hiking in Alaska, so they're always somewhere in the "what if?" scenarios that rise in the back of my mind when preparing for a trip. Much like wearing proper clothing or practicing good navigation skills, people need to learn how to avoid dangerous animal encounters as part of their normal routine. The risk of such an encounter is almost negligable, and it would take a dumb person to actively (or inadvertantly) attract/provoke wild animals, including bears... but still, it's a good idea to get in the habbit of managing food, making plenty of noise, and not camping in the middle of bear scat. This is as much for one's personal safety as it is for keeping animals from gaining bad habbits.

That said, I look at mace or firearms as a last resort, something I use when all other practices have failed. I do carry a small handgun, though, at least when I'm in Alaska.

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#86494 - 01/10/08 06:52 PM Guns? [Re: Wolfeye]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
Using a small handgun against a bear is probably the singularly stupidest thing you could do on the trail.

Bears have been known to survive blasts from a shotgun. What is a little 9mm gun going to do? Just tick it off so much it could kill you.

A smarter approach would be to fire shots in the air, like using a bear banger (a small banging flare type device, used to scare off bears, about the size of a keychain) The noise alone could dissuade an animal.

I live in canada where firearms are strictly limited so firearms are not an option for us- We use bear bangers, bear bells, or, in extreme circumstances bear spray.

Come on people, use some common sense- a couple of little bullets aren't going to kill a 300+ lb. animal.

You know what they say- an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!
_________________________
Huh?

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#86495 - 01/10/08 07:41 PM Re: Guns? [Re: cheap]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
You are right about a 9mm, even though there is a big difference between a load of shot and a 9mm bullet. But, wolfeye didn't say he used a 9. A larger round, like a 357 or 44 mag, maybe even a 45ACP would do much more. He said a small handgun, so you can easily assume he means a 9mm, but he might not.

So, what do you do when all your "stuff" didn't work and the bear is on top of you? You can lie there and play dead, hoping he doesn't eat you, or you can shoot him at point blank. A 9mm to the skull at point blank will do something. Better than giving up.

I know that Canada has different gun laws, and I won't discuss the pros and cons here. I guess you do what you can. But, if I was hiking in Alaska, I would at the very least carry a 9mm, but probably something much bigger. But, that is me. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#86496 - 01/10/08 08:00 PM Re: Guns? [Re: cheap]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
"Using a small handgun against a bear is probably the singularly stupidest thing you could do on the trail."

Right. That's why a pump 12 ga. with slugs and/or 00 buck would be a smarter choice and it would double as a tarp pole. Thompson Contender in 30-40 Krag would be second choice for a hand gun if you're good with one shot. (it's light weight). Maybe a Model 94 in 30-30.... a carbine. No wimpy handguns for me either.

"I live in canada where firearms are strictly limited so firearms are not an option for us- "

Come to Texas. We can fix you right up.

"Come on people, use some common sense- a couple of little bullets aren't going to kill a 300+ lb. animal."

Uh....300+lb.? We're not talking about cubs here. More like 1200 lbs. And the right handgun WILL take out either, with one shot. The proper question is "can you use that firearm under pressure effectively?" The "21 foot rule" says you better have plenty of warning!

Do a search on this topic....it pops up every year.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#86497 - 01/10/08 08:32 PM Re: Guns? [Re: finallyME]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
A colleague of mine, on patrol in an Alaskan park were attacked by a grizzly. The griz did injure the other ranger she was with. She curled up and played dead. Griz came over and sniffed her, but left her alone. This was before bear spray was available.

I think Steve Herrero's book on bears is one of the best, most even handed discussions on the problem that is available.

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#86498 - 01/10/08 08:35 PM Re: Guns? [Re: finallyME]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
your right.
I was stupid and didn't take into account all the facts.
Sorry.
I just hoped to encourage use non-lethal force when a bear is just sniffing around.
But I do realise now a gun might be your last chance when a bear actually tries to kill you.

Thanks for showing me both sides of the topic guys
But using a bearproof container or hanging your food could prevent all of this!
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cheap
_________________________
Huh?

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#86499 - 01/11/08 07:36 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Head shot, one chance, then it's on you. Weather it's bear or mugger/carjacker. Practice makes perfect. Also how would a 30-06 work for a tent pole?
_________________________
Enjoy your next trip...

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#86500 - 01/11/08 12:16 PM Re: Guns? [Re: cheap]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Cheap, you bring up some really good points. Non-lethal force needs to be used first. Bear education (your and my education on bear behavior), and food handling should be taught to prevent bear encounters. I think we also need to come up with a way to teach the bears that messing with people is not good. Bear spray is what you use when the bear is close and coming at you. I only advocate a handgun when the spray didn't work, and the bear is on top of you.

Here is Utah, the only worry is mountain lion. Black bears are here, but spray is usually adequate. When I was in Texas, the concern was fire ants and rattle snakes. It really depends on where. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#86501 - 01/11/08 03:10 PM Re: Guns? [Re: finallyME]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
With a bear charge, there isn't an opportunity to try one thing and change to another.

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#86502 - 01/11/08 04:17 PM Re: Guns? [Re: chaz]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Gotta' Love those Texans <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Try a S&W 500 then talk to me <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> One shot, one kill is'nt just a statement with this handgun trust me, 5 watermelons later and I'm a believer <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

A 30-06 would work ok, but I'd prefer it be handy to use and not attached to a tent/tarp when needed, but hey, that's just me <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> if you want to wave a 'flag' and yell, "hey, bear, over here!" that's your business <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Me? I'd prefer to fire at a charging bear if i was deep in the bush, rather than wait for it to change it's mind. When it's wildlife or me, i'll be the one telling the story after it's over, not a one day news bleep <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86503 - 01/11/08 04:45 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Earthling,
Wolfeye said "Small handgun". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

However grizz have been killed at point blank range by a .22 in the eye. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />I'd prefer a .44, but ya use what ya got... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

But really guys, using a handgun against a bear isn't a real good idea.. A .340 weatherby magnum is really about the smallest reliable big bear load, and it doesn't come out of no handgun... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I wonder how many of you have ever seen a big bear? I saw a numbered Boone and Crocket club brown bear stuffed at the university of Alaska at Fairbanks. As I recall it was about 18 feet something at the tippy tip of its ear when standing up and about 7 feet in diameter, also while erect. Its neck was approximately 3 feet in diameter! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Where would you shoot at? I mean a tall person could lay down sideways in his belly and not make a bump on either side. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I had a big browny in the bushes behind my tent one night camped on the Kenai Penninsula in Alaska. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />Its breath was slow and its lungs vibrated like 55 gallon cans. The hair all over my body stood straight up <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />- right through my clothes yes... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I saw another brown bear through my telescope in Denali Park and he was around 7 foot tall at the sholder walking on all fours. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#86504 - 01/11/08 05:37 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Jimshaw]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Jim, I'm talking an all out backcountry bush trip not average trip. Go shoot a 500 and get back to me. I shot 50 rounds with it and I can tell you it'll do the job <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> That's a big target moving pretty fast, but in an all out attack something is better than nothing. I prefer a shotgun over a rifle in CQB, but that's me <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86505 - 01/11/08 05:51 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
You guys make me feel sick!
Quote:
Head shot, one chance, then it's on you. Weather it's bear or mugger/carjacker. Practice makes perfect. Also how would a 30-06 work for a tent pole?


Bears are living things too, and here you are, talking about how to kill one. If i didn't know you guys were more responsible, I would think you would shoot the first bear you see just to brag about it.

It is a sad world when people want to use a rifle as a tent pole because they are scared of a bear.

And don't even joke about shooting someone else like that.
_________________________
Huh?

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#86506 - 01/11/08 06:30 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Eugene, yup on the shotgun....8 shot riot gun is at the ready here. As far as rifles go, lets just cut to the chase and carry a Barrett .50. That will give you time to fix breakfast as you watch your attack bear through the scope 2500 yards away......commin ta git ya! It WILL hammer in your tarp pegs when not locked n' loaded. I've never held/seen a 500.

Yeah, Jimshaw, I've seen bears in the wild. The first one was sitting in the middle of the road in Canada, west of Toronto, while my wife and I were riding our bicycles. We thought it to be some HUGE dog (Texans don't automatically think 'bear') and rode up to get a closer look. It saw us, looked upset, and ran off.
Second bear was just west of Juno....big sucker, no threat, majestic to watch. Our guide carried a 30-06...we hiked through a lot of devils glove.
Third bear was a black that stopped a mountain bike race I was in, cold, while in Arkansas. It planted it's butt right in the middle of the single-track and wouldn't budge. We rang bells, banged sticks on the handle bars, blew whistles....finally it wandered off and we continued.
Fourth bear was one of the first sightings of a Mexican black bear that returned to Big Bend National Park. They were hunted out of the park over 60 years ago.
I was hiking up Pine Canyon and caught a glimpse of a sow and cub running along the canyon wall above me....Mexican black bears are one of the smallest North American bears.
Fifth possible "encounter" was also in Big Bend where I was 'checked out' by what I believe to be a bear while on a solo hike/camp in the Chisos mountains. Noisy, breathy, and stank like old road kill. I'm not absolutely sure what it was....it was on the back side of my tarp at 3:00am. Smelled like rat snake musk but was way too noisy for a snake, breaking stick and bark. Funny...I was petrified and fell back asleep while trying to remain still. Got bored I guess.
Only one griizzly out of all the above.

Cheap,... lighten up. You are new to the forum and are dealing with a lot of folk who know what they are talking about....and some are having fun with you. No, we don't use rifles/shotguns as tarp poles. I don't carry weapons in the backcountry unless there's a really good reason to....and that's pretty much never. I get the impression you don't go back and read responses to your posts, based on your responses....might be time to do so.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#86507 - 01/11/08 07:25 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
sorry about that!
sometimes I start ranting on about somethin and don't shut up!

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
PS: I figured a gun would rust if it was used as a tent pole-
only thing I ever shot was a .22 rifle and a 12 guage.
_________________________
Huh?

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#86508 - 01/11/08 07:39 PM Re: Guns? [Re: cheap]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> That was YOU Paul <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> And all along I thought I was alone in that canyon <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Once you hold the 500 a 357 will seem like a peashooter <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I'm really surprised that S&W did'nt unveil it at the Alamo it's such a huge handgun, and round <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It sounds like a cannon going off complete with muzzle fire <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just some good ol' boys playin' with their toys <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> One of my closest friends is a hobby gunsmith and reloader and has quite a collection of toys. Nothing like sittin' around his woodstove and ding'n rounds off a stump at the other end of the basement <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> We 'rarely' miss the paper plate on the stump. But hey, that's what sheetrock is fer' right? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Cheap lighten up on the avatar smoke ther pal <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> None of us regularly carry in the bush, that I know of; unless we are going soomeplace that requires it for the safety of the party/regulations. Indiscrimanately taking of life is nothing we condone, we go to enjoy the wildlife, but realize it is not a zoo.
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#86509 - 01/11/08 08:33 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
My brother in law has a .500, 5 shot revolver. I got the opportunity to shoot 5 rounds out of it, in San Antonio. I have also shot a 44 mag and 357. The 500 is a pretty big round. Dryer, go to Sportsman's Warehouse, or Bass Pro and take a look. You can even look at the bullets. I haven't shot a Barret .50 cal, but I have shot an M2 Browning Machine gun. But there is no kick to that because it is on a big huge tripod. The 500's purpose IS bear hunting. You put a little scope on it, and don't have to carry a rifle.
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#86510 - 01/12/08 07:10 AM Re: Guns? [Re: cheap]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Cheap, one of my neighbors had a bear getting in their garbage last summer and a blast from their shotgun didn't kill the bear, disfigured it is all. Other neighbors including myself have had a bear get into the garbage, I plan on getting a bear resistant garbage can, since I am away from home all week. Trying to figure how to rig up something from steel, hate to have to spring for something made from steel, pretty expensive. Those plastic garbage cans are costly, around $50, plus $40 to ship from back east to California.

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#86511 - 01/13/08 12:27 PM Re: Guns? [Re: cheap]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Quote:
You guys make me feel sick!
Quote:
Head shot, one chance, then it's on you. Weather it's bear or mugger/carjacker. Practice makes perfect. Also how would a 30-06 work for a tent pole?


Bears are living things too, and here you are, talking about how to kill one. If i didn't know you guys were more responsible, I would think you would shoot the first bear you see just to brag about it.

It is a sad world when people want to use a rifle as a tent pole because they are scared of a bear.

And don't even joke about shooting someone else like that.





It's better to know and not need than to need and not know. I would also think it is fairly common sense that shooting pretty much any animal in the head is going to do the job you are obviously intending by doing so. Animals die everyday in far more violent and painful ways than just simply being shot in the head. You act as though hunting doesn't take place and people never kill anything, or that it is even bad to do so.

And it isn't a sad thing when people use a rifle as a tent pole, though I think that was said in a slightly joking manner. Sometimes it is simply a necessity, like it or not.
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#86512 - 01/13/08 02:48 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
hootyhoo Offline
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Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 686
Loc: Cyberspace
Dryer if you are using your shotgun as a tarp pole you should hang a sign that says 'Bears Come Back Later'. Otherwise you will have to compromise your shelter to shoot the bear. Dooh!

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#86513 - 01/13/08 02:52 PM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
hootyhoo Offline
member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 686
Loc: Cyberspace
I recommend Kung Fu. Use the bears weight against him. The bigger the bear the harder they fall.

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#86514 - 01/13/08 04:15 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Jimshaw]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Earthling,
Wolfeye said "Small handgun". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />


Yes, and by "small" I mean .44 magnum with a 3 to 6" barrel. Most of my hiking is done on Annette Island in Southeast Alaska, and there happens to be no population of browns or grizzlies there. There are a few blackbears, but they're very, very rare, typically only found there temporarily because they managed to swim there from a larger island. I honestly don't know what protection I'd carry if I hiked on the mainland or on Prince of Whales Island.

Most of my post wasn't about guns at all; my faith is in one's ability to avoid attention from bears in the first place. More than anything, I figure a handgun is something one carries to make themself feel safer. The culture is Alaska is also a lot more relaxed when it comes to firearms in general; it feels like I'm showing my roots by "doing as the Romans do" whenever I hike up there in my home state.

Anyways, I didn't mean to cause the thread to go off on a tangent...

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#86515 - 01/13/08 06:20 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Wolfeye]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

Yes, and by "small" I mean .44 magnum with a 3 to 6" barrel.


Yeah, that sure is small.... There, my sarcasm for the day. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#86516 - 01/13/08 06:34 PM Re: Guns? [Re: hootyhoo]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
"Otherwise you will have to compromise your shelter to shoot the bear. Dooh! "


Yeah, not a pretty sight. Tarp gets all tangled...holes blown in it. Bear tripping all over itself, laughing so hard. If I use the shotgun as a trekking pole, things can go completely downhill if I forget to unplug the mud from the muzzle. But I'm a learnin'. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#86517 - 01/14/08 05:39 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Dryer
"NEVER DISCHARGE A LARGE FIREARM INSIDE A TENT" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Especially not magnum or P+ loads as the fireball will burn the tent down.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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#86518 - 01/14/08 07:15 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Good advice, Jim! I'll stick with 3" Express loads. Red wad columns. Herco.

Hey, Earthling has given me the S&W 500 hots. That is a BIG revolver! And just think, using it as a tarp pole will help the tarp shed water better! No need to carry a flashlight either. "wheres my watch. BLAM! oh, i see it now!"
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#86519 - 01/14/08 07:19 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
Colt 1911 for me!
Managing to get one in Canada was a nightmare!
I think a full clip of .45ACP rounds should do the trick.
Nice and loud too!
Might not work as a flashlight though <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

oh well...
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#86520 - 01/14/08 08:00 PM Re: bears [Re: hootyhoo]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2837
Loc: Portland, OR
Use the bears weight against him.

I like this answer best, so far. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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#86521 - 01/15/08 03:28 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
Good advice, Jim! I'll stick with 3" Express loads. Red wad columns. Herco.

Hey, Earthling has given me the S&W 500 hots. That is a BIG revolver! And just think, using it as a tarp pole will help the tarp shed water better! No need to carry a flashlight either. "wheres my watch. BLAM! oh, i see it now!"


Like FinallyME said Paul, it's a flamethrower <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Nothing more fun than 'canning watermelons or cantelopes' with a 500 <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Listen to the earthling he knows of what he speaketh on the weaponery <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You could hand chuck a 500's cartridge at a bear and stop it I think...now that's UL! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#86522 - 02/02/08 10:14 AM Re: Guns? [Re: cheap]
Ecrow Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 85
Loc: N. New Mexico
Sure, trying to scare a bear is best, if you have that window. Some bear attacks have occured so suddenly that the hikers didn't have time to use spray. Sometimes you need to kill something at point blank range immediately, but many times you just suspect something is snuffling around the area at night. (it's like trying to catagorize car wrecks).

The largest grizzly shot (30 yrs ago) was popped in the side of the head with a 22. I've known of cases where an attack was averted by a poor shot breaking the front leg of a grizzly.

Practice food, smell, and cooking techniques, but if you are in a group smaller than three, carrry a glock. Carry a glock. Oh, and a shotgun? that's for birds.

Ecrow
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Ecrow
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#86523 - 02/02/08 10:45 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Ecrow]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Quote:
Practice food, smell, and cooking techniques, but if you are in a group smaller than three, carrry a glock. Carry a glock. Oh, and a shotgun? that's for birds.

Ecrow


Well I don't think I'd belittle a shotgun so easily. Have you ever seen what a slug does to an animal? Well I have and a bear wouldn't fair so well if hit by one.
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#86524 - 02/02/08 01:03 PM Re: Guns? [Re: MattnID]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
A slug will work if you get a shot off in time and I'll bet it also makes a good tent pole. I have a 30-06 which I think is to cumbersom on the trail so I'll carry 45cal auto with slugs or hollowpoints. If I get a good head shot off maybe 1 or 2 at best that might work. But we all know where mites grow!
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#86525 - 02/02/08 07:49 PM Re: Guns? [Re: chaz]
BobEFord Offline
member

Registered: 01/28/08
Posts: 72
Loc: SE AZ
We had a puma stalking our dogs in the Sta Catalina Mtns. It did not want to leave us.

Made me think about packing some heat in that area next time - if for nothing else to make bigger noise (it would also add to the feeling of security when packing further south in areas with more abundant illegals and contraband trafficking).

Bears are not a major issue for us in SE AZ, but these bear bangers sound interesting for the puma.

Sticking with the "light" theme, what packs the most punch for the least weight?

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#86526 - 02/02/08 08:44 PM Re: Guns? [Re: BobEFord]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:

Sticking with the "light" theme, what packs the most punch for the least weight?


Bear spray.

I can clear 5 bowling pins from the front of a 4x8 sheet of plywood with a .45 from the leather at 7 yards in under 3 seconds when I was younger, still under 4 today. I'm the rare breed of a canadian that shoots IPSC. Even when I know I could get away with it (illegal in canada) I don't bother with pistols. They're heavy, and I've seen the tests and papers. Bear spray is more effective, and it's a lot lighter than any of my guns that aren't going to just make something merely annoyed when shot at.
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#86527 - 02/02/08 08:49 PM Re: Guns? [Re: BobEFord]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Was the kitty cat "stalking" or just curious? I have found kitty tracks covering mine on various trails, particularly in the Baboquivaris, where I have spent many happy nights camped on or near Lion Ledge. Never heard of an attack on humans in Southern Arizona during the time I was living there (1955-1983). In my experience firearms have generated more SAR call outs than mountain lions (8-0).

This isn't an anti firearms rant. I have owned and used guns since I was twelve and my S&W 357 Magnum is one of my most cherished possessions. It is just that in most outdoors contexts, firearms are useless weight - this is a lightweight forum, after all.

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#86528 - 02/02/08 09:24 PM Re: Guns? [Re: phat]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
phat
bear spray <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
When I feel the need to pack my .44 I always carry snake shot <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> in the first chamber,

[bear spray = snake shot] <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
then 2 P+ magnum loads, followed by 3 .44 specials.
The snake shot makes a nice loud warning shot <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> that can be coupled by actually shooting at it with snake shot at medium range, the spray plus noise should scare anything with a brain. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Snake shot wouldn't even penetrate a bears fur over 20 feet away but it would scare him. The 2 p+ loads are obvious stopping power. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> The 3 specials shoot very flat with almost no recoil are for bringing down an escaping wounded animal. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Fortuanately I have never had to fire in self defense, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> so I have never fired the .44 in the wilderness. BUT. I feel a lot better when I'm carrying it and that shows to animals. I growl with my .44, and I feel less fear when I am standing behind it. BUT then I also grew up with guns in a hunting family of pioneer stock and Indian heritage. My people killed and ate Bar, but they also respected mr bear big time... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I would do everything possible to avoid seriously injuring a bear, but hitting one with a rock is still fair game. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#86529 - 02/02/08 09:45 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
phat
bear spray <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
When I feel the need to pack my .44 I always carry snake shot <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> in the first chamber,

[bear spray = snake shot] <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
then 2 P+ magnum loads, followed by 3 .44 specials.
The snake shot makes a nice loud warning shot <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> that can be coupled by actually shooting at it with snake shot at medium range, the spray plus noise should scare anything with a brain. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Snake shot wouldn't even penetrate a bears fur over 20 feet away but it would scare him. The 2 p+ loads are obvious stopping power. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> The 3 specials shoot very flat with almost no recoil are for bringing down an escaping wounded animal. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


Were I to pack a pistol for bear, It wouldn't be loaded that way. It would be the .38 super loaded hotter than hades with 162 hardcast, or more likely the cz 75 with 15 rounds of canuck military surplus submachine gun 9mm hardball "do not use in wimpy handgun around lawyers" loads that penetrate and penetrate and penetrate - the kind of load that leaves nasty dents in the bianchi plates. If I were ever to fire at a bear, if it wasn't a central nervous system hit it wouldn't matter. Love my .45 but not for that. The only thing that's gonna stop a grizzly at full tilt at 20 yards is a central nervous system hit, or a lungful and eyeful of capuschin spray. The latter is lighter on my belt, and much easier to achieve, even though I am good with a handgun.

Quote:

Fortuanately I have never had to fire in self defense, <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> so I have never fired the .44 in the wilderness. BUT. I feel a lot better when I'm carrying it and that shows to animals. I growl with my .44, and I feel less fear when I am standing behind it. BUT then I also grew up with guns in a hunting family of pioneer stock and Indian heritage. My people killed and ate Bar, but they also respected mr bear big time... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


I grew up essentially the same jim - my indian roots are about 5 generations removed, but I grew up hunting and still do. I've seen moose and elk wander away poorly shot by idiots and absorb 8 rounds of .30/06. I hold no illusions about a grizzly with a couple of rounds of .44. Your mention of confidence is all important, and I believe the attitude and respect you show based on your confidence in an encounter is all important. Again, that's why I carry what I carry - I am much more confident in it's ability to stop them coming towards me than my pistols would be, and I've probably burned through a couple hundred thousand rounds of handgun ammo over the years.

Not to mention that the spray bomb is darned effective against two legged problems too.
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#86530 - 02/03/08 07:11 AM Re: Guns? [Re: phat]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
Hand guns are definately limited and heavy if you can't shoot quick and accurately. I have thought about snake shot and think it a good idea. But, I'm for sure gonna get bear spray. I grew up around guns and used to hunt, but what got me back into firearms was getting carjacked by two kids in my front yard. I went through the mental cycles that everyone goes through after getting stuck up and swore it would never happen again. I carried a SW 9mm everywhere and would practice offten. I wasn't satisfied until I could shoot the tips of limbs out of trees at around 30 yards. (most of the time) Guns are useless unless you can shoot well.
A necessary evil. Necessary against evil and evil in the wrong hands.
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#86531 - 02/05/08 12:50 PM Re: Guns? [Re: chaz]
Earthling Offline
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Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Even though, like Phat, Jim and some others here, I have extensive gun handling and shooting experience; I'd have to go the Bear Spray route for sanity. When I'm packing a side arm it takes away from my being able to enjoy the backpacking experience because of my gun handling experience. Sounds strange until you realize the responsibilty of having that firearm in your possession and meeting up with other folks. Lots of folks get 'gun curious' when they realize there is one around, making it more stressful to me because I don't like to let folks handle my guns. I can't tell how much gun sense or handling experience they have, and i don't want to find out when it's too late <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The majority of bear encounters can be avoided with proper camp etiquitte IME. Black bears are curious about your camp, but most are easily dissuaded from coming into camp, unless they have been habituated by previous sloppy campers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. Browns, grizzlies are a whole different game since they know they are the king of the mountains/top of the food chain; but even they can be dissuaded by a good can of bear spray IME. I've seen firsthand a grizzly go scampering off as soon as the bear spray let loose.
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#86532 - 02/05/08 03:25 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
I just got emailed some pictures of what a polar bear did to a poor sleeping camper, after the bear came through the tent wall and attacked. The guy had the strength to get to his side arm and shoot the bear, killing it. The man should have died from his injuries. I can forward to anyone wanting to see, but it's very graphic.
Point is....
The severity of the injuries tells me that a 'nice' spray would have gotten the guy killed.
Personally, things like fire starters, or parachutes, or deterrents/self protection, I want it ALL and I want it NOW. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> If I hike where I need self protection (rare, if ever...texas/mexican border is a good example), my 12 ga. riot gun will be slung over my shoulder and it will be the first line of defense, not secondary. If a bear/human/etc. gets through spray, you won't have time to turn up the heat, and one that gets close enough to spray....is too close. It crossed the line. Police will tell you about the effectiveness of spray being unreliable...against humans, not a 1500 pound charging mass of teeth and claws. I have hiked in Alaska and the guide carried a rifle...comforting to me...and no one cared to see or play with it. It was a 'fixture' for the guide walking point. Spray might work sometimes but I'd rather carry big iron and be sure.

Interestingly, no one has talked about Tasers. Our local cops prefer Tasers over spray, 100%. Tasers are available to the public now.



Eugene....bears don't "scamper".... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That's what bunnies do! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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#86533 - 02/05/08 03:56 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Paul, folks choose what they need for their specific situations. Polar bears are much different to deal with than even grizzlies and I would be packing heat up there. I had a friend that used to guide up on the Artic Circle so i know what's up with polar bears.

You make some valid points, but I was'nt talking of guides carrying, I'm talking fellow backpackers who take interest in my firearms in the field. Just my experiences, your's differ apparently.

I saw the bear 'scamper' off, ok, maybe it 'skeedaddled' but it was heading away from our party and the spray. the spray reached out and touched the bear at 20+ft IMO.

I feel confident about holding my own in the wilds with the 2 legged variety, bring'em on <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#86534 - 02/05/08 04:35 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Quote:

I feel confident about holding my own in the wilds with the 2 legged variety, bring'em on <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I dunno. Bigfoot might put up a heck of a fight. I mean, nobody ever hears about anyone winning a fight against a bigfoot, so we can only assume the worst I'd come to reason. But hey, if you wanna take 'em on, best of luck. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
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#86535 - 02/05/08 07:29 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Dryer
quote
______________________________
Police will tell you about the effectiveness of spray being unreliable...against humans, not a 1500 pound charging mass of teeth and claws. I have hiked in Alaska and the guide carried a rifle...comforting to me...and no one cared to see or play with it. It was a 'fixture' for the guide walking point. Spray might work sometimes but I'd rather carry big iron and be sure.
___________________________________

I read in a (very old) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />guides manual (from Herters) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> once that you should spit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />in the mouth <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> of a charging grizzly bear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It will stop him and you will be the king of the woods. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hope yer mouth ain't dry! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
P.S. Eartling. Funny - when I run into people no one wants to touch my gun. Guess maybe a large frame .44 revolver in a shoulder holster doesn't say "reach out and touch me". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
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#86536 - 02/05/08 11:24 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I've heard they studied the spray on Polar bears, - it apparently does *not* work well
on them. either it's the eylid and nostril reactions they use for diving under water, or
they don't care, or they like their food spicy.

So I will caveat my answer to "bears" - Grizzlys don't worry me much, bear spray and
common sense. Polar bears OTOH, are 100% predator.

So, if you find me in polar bear country, I'll be carrying a rifle. No handgun, no spray.
something that can throw a big heavy nosler partition from stem to stern...
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#86537 - 02/06/08 05:06 AM Re: bears [Re: MattnID]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I have to agree with your post verbatum, and agree that mace and guns and being aware are key to the chance encounter with a charging sow trying to protect her cubs. There is a article on bear attacks in the current issue of Outdoor life. To sum up. Some guy's are hunting and hear something in the woods. The sow fixed on one of the hunters and charged. They had to shoot several times to bring the bear down, leaving two cubs to be rescued and placed in a zoo. Killing anything for me would be a last resort. But for my protection or survival I wouldn't hesitate for a split second.

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#86538 - 02/06/08 10:49 PM Re: Guns? [Re: MattnID]
Ecrow Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 85
Loc: N. New Mexico
You are right Matt AK, My Mossberg is way amazing with slugs. But I hardly consider it appropriate for hiking unless I'm up north. (like you) And a 9mm IS way too small. But Pepper spray is not at all confident inspiring. I like to squeeze off a few panic/warning shots as I urinate down my leg, it makes me feel much more confident and it alerts everything around me. And those last few rounds at two feet....they won't miss.

Ecrow
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#86539 - 02/07/08 06:09 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Ecrow]
Paddy_Crow Offline
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Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
A charging bear can exceed 50 feet per second, so the notion of having time to squeeze off several rounds is unrealistic. Chances are, the bear will be on you before you can draw your weapon or you will only get off one unaimed shot.

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#86540 - 02/07/08 08:05 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Well, while I won't deny the fact that bears can cover some ground fast, they don't immediately start out at full speed. So while a bear can cover 50 feet in a second, they aren't going to be doing that with the first few strides.
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In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#86541 - 02/07/08 08:24 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Charging bear.
50 feet in one second. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />I have always stated that if an animal is charging and it is more than 25 feet away, you might have a chance to fire 2 <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />rounds with an automatic, BUT if the animal is within 25 feet you will get one shot off <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />and since you won't have the Luxury of firing instantly, it will be and should be at point blank range <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. Unless you are hunting there is no excuse for killing a bear that isn't actually about to knaw on you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Alaska law codifies this.

This means that if you do not have a gun capable of stopping that bear with one shot, you may not survive the encounter and the bear may die uneccesarily as well due to your panic and over protection. You shouldn't be in Bear country if you can't deal with one around. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

For the most part bears are not dangerous to humans. I have run into 2 mountain lions in the back country and 2 bears. The bears were beautiful locals who just wanted a snack and left, kind of like big dogs, but the lion encounters are of a very different nature. I don't worry about bears. But I don't hike in griz country.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#86542 - 02/07/08 08:56 AM Re: Guns? [Re: MattnID]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
Well, while I won't deny the fact that bears can cover some ground fast, they don't immediately start out at full speed. So while a bear can cover 50 feet in a second, they aren't going to be doing that with the first few strides.


By the time you figure out they're coming at you, they will most likely be up to speed. A lot of people seem to have this conception that a bear will be off in the distance sauntering about and then come running at them in full view. From the accounts I've read, most victims didn't even know a bear was nearby until they heard something crash through the brush. Or they just saw a blur of motion. Some didn't even have time to drop to their knees.

By all means, do what you must to protect yourself. But prepare as though there will be little, if any, warning.

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#86543 - 02/07/08 09:20 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Earthling Offline
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Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Paddy I agree with your post, as that is how most folks get into a bad bear situation. They are either not being observant of their surroundings; or they are in an area where bears are feeding in deep brush.

I prefer to avoid encounters with predator critters when possible. If not, depending upon the region I am in, and the prevailing laws, I will be carrying sufficent protection for the area. The different species require different loads, hence you need to be regionally specific to the threat.

I can hold my own with most 2 leggers, and figure the spray is for the backcountry methheads; the bears I'll leave be <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86544 - 02/07/08 12:02 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
finallyME Offline
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Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Good point Paddy.
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#86545 - 02/07/08 12:47 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Quote:

By the time you figure out they're coming at you, they will most likely be up to speed. A lot of people seem to have this conception that a bear will be off in the distance sauntering about and then come running at them in full view. From the accounts I've read, most victims didn't even know a bear was nearby until they heard something crash through the brush. Or they just saw a blur of motion. Some didn't even have time to drop to their knees.

By all means, do what you must to protect yourself. But prepare as though there will be little, if any, warning.


Point taken. But if you don't see a bear coming, then it doesn't matter if you have a weapon or not. Chances are, if the bear hits you you're going to be in a position where getting to your weapon may not come soon enough or even be possible. So, if a bear is running at me already at full speed and I don't see it coming or see it soon enough, my weapon is useless because you're going to be caught off guard and possibly disoriented trying to figure out which way is up and what is going on. I agree though, be prepared as possible.
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#86546 - 02/07/08 05:12 PM let's try a native's perspective [Re: wvheaven85]
Wolfeye Offline
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Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
Part of what shaped my attitude about bears was the native folklore I heard when I was young: Were there stories of brave men hunting bears together, with nothing but the simple bows & spears they had at the time? Yes; bears were well respected, and a successful hunt brought prestige. Were there stories of bears stalking or mauling people, or at least being a little terrorizing? Not that I remember. I do remember a story or two about them reacting in annoyance to people who provoke them.

I think bears usually go about their daily business without much thought about humans. Unless we scare them, provoke them, or unwittingly tempt them with our enticingly sweet & salty foods, we have little to worry about from bears. That said, I like to give them plenty of warning that humans are in the area, I keep my food stashed well, and I pack some heat when I'm in the outdoors. I like to go about my daily business without much thought about bears, but I do it responsibly.

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#86547 - 02/07/08 05:23 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
I agree that it's unrealistic to think one can get off a few shots. I've heard that if you have a person with a gun in their holster vs. a person with a knife, the knife wielder can win if they start their lunge within 21'. I don't doubt that 50' still isn't a safe distance when it comes to bears. It's very sobering. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I've noticed that most hikers don't really pay much attention to their surroundings when they're on the move; it seems like most like to stare at where they're putting their feet and poles. Personally, I like to keep my head looking around at the surroundings, but I do it mostly to stay oriented & to enjoy the scenery, not neccessarily because I'm on the lookout for things that might eat me.

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#86548 - 02/07/08 06:57 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Wolfeye]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Wolfeye,
I hope people listen to you. You are one of our few knowledgable "natives" and I have a great deal of respect for your "upbringing". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

["Somehow I just am not a victim type and any human or animal assailants choose other targets.']

about being non-observant, yes people hike looking down at their feet. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />People cross country ski looking down at their feet. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />You downhill ski looking ahead. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BUT we were in the Sierras around Memorial day BPing and came out through a big campground where the truck was parked. We had tracked a lioness and 2 cubs who stalked the last bpers who hiked out before us. When we got the top there were HUGE fresh (half hour - 45 minute old) lion tracks as big as my hand (and deeper in the snow than my own boot prints), and they went within 50 feet of a campsite with small children playing. NO ONE SAW the lion or the tracks and NO ONE would believe me that the tracks through the campground were from a mountain lion and people were taking their dogs down the trail with them and couldn't see or admit the difference between the kitty tracks and the dog tracks.
Bears just aren't a problem really. If you don't camp in campgrounds and national parks you may never see one in a life time of camping.

As far as an assailant with a knife - thats a human assailant. An animal has millions of years of DNA telling him to ambush his prey so it doesn't have time to react, like run or shoot. If you even see a mountain lion its a bad thing. If you see a bear it means hes curious, if its not a grizzly throw something at him and try to hit it because a bear coldn't care less about rocks that almost hit.

BEARS ARE AFRAID OF AVOLANCHE/ROCKSLIDE NOISES. I have more success getting a bears attention by throwing a rock down hard on other rocks than by throwing the rock at the bear and missing.

Come on - a bear is just a big dog - maybe a bit smarter and wilder, but he is controlled by a similar attitude. "not get hurt, scare off danger, find food, sex, sniff sniff, sniff sniff somemore, oh gee I didn't see that human I better act big and ferocious so he doesn't hurt me, then I can run away unless he has food, etc etc".

They're still animals with all of the predictable behavior traits of their species and if you accept that you will deal with it better. I have scared off two mountain lions on different occasions. They're schitsy, and just knowing that you know they're there is enough to scare them off. If you sort of "snort" that is a couple of loud sniffs into the air, everycat for half a mile will hear it and lift his nose to the air and wonder if a predator is sniffing him.

The more I play dog with my dog, the more I understand the workings of animals behavior. If you leave your sandwich on the floor the dog will eat it. It gets more complicated than that but thats the basics. If you take food into a bears territory you better be prepared to defend it.

As far as human assailants - as I have stated before - I'd rather not have a gun unless I'm responsible for protecting someone - I take "body guard" really seriously. Somehow I just am not a victim type and any human or animal assailants choose other targets.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#86549 - 02/08/08 07:23 AM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
tinaanderson Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 18
I have seen bears in the woods many times, but they never got too close and I never had any problems with them. They generally don't pay attention to humans all that much from what I have experienced.
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#86550 - 02/08/08 08:27 AM Re: bears [Re: tinaanderson]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
This is generally true. However, there are situations that a hiker may stumble into that can cause a bear to charge. A carcass being in the vicinity or if you surprise the bear, for example.

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#86551 - 02/08/08 02:29 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Wolfeye]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

I've noticed that most hikers don't really pay much attention to their surroundings when they're on the move


Yeah, people don't pay attention when they drive their cars. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> The simple act of paying attention to your surroundings would solve a lot of problems, not just in hiking. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#86552 - 02/08/08 02:32 PM Re: let's try a native's perspective [Re: Wolfeye]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
Were there stories of bears stalking or mauling people, or at least being a little terrorizing? Not that I remember.


Thats cuz they got ea'en. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Dead men tell no tales. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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#86553 - 02/10/08 03:53 PM Re: death or death [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Ecrow Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 85
Loc: N. New Mexico
Paddy Crow-- bear charge--- That's why I say in the event of a bear attack, it is a death or death situation. Sometimes you need to kill something at point blank range immediately, or death, no other options. Maybe even from inside a sleeping bag. Usually, black bears just spook away or you just never even see them. Last spring I inadvertantly walked up on a cub in a group of eight hikers, I drew my gun, and we all very quietly retreated without seeing the mother, strange, but true.

Ecrow
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Ecrow
Live to tell.

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#86554 - 02/10/08 08:41 PM Re: bears - NOT Again! [Re: wvheaven85]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
I've had this same ongoing bear conversation over at HikingForums.net for a month, and some gun hater has been busting my... well... you know... for a several days now. He thinks yelling at the bears is sufficient and pepper spray should be used only in the extreme. Now, don't get me wrong here... I like bears, they make good jerky, their fat will water proof your boots for days with one coating, and there's nothing like a bear rug in front of roaring fire to keep your wife happy....nevertheless, if a bear is about to eat me, I refuse to stand their yelling at him while trying to decide if it's time to spray him with chili pepper spray, instead, I'm going to shoot him in the throat with my .45 Auto GLOCK or my Colt 44 magnum, which ever I'm carrying at the time.

I mentioned that yelling at a bear dos NOT always work to scare them away, and that we would be foolish to depend on the yelling thing only. I needed some examples of situations where people yelled and screamed and yelled some more, but it didn't help...

So, I posted the following info and made some of the more sensitive members at HikingWeenies.net upset. Brum

Victim's name, age, gender Date Species of bear Location, comments

Don Peters, 51, male November 25, 2007 Brown Mountain Aire Lodge west of Sundre, about 90 km northwest of Calgary. The 51-year-old did not return from a hunting trip in Western Alberta. He was killed by a grizzly near his vehicle after going hunting alone. His body was found three days later. His rifle was found nearby. It had been fired but there was nothing to indicate the bear had been hit. Officials were trying to trap the bear but would not say whether it would be destroyed if captured. Upon capture, the bear may be shot, moved to another area or let go, depending on an evaluation of the bear; said Alberta resources spokesman Dave Ealey. [1]

Robin Kochorek, 31, female July 20, 2007 Black The 31-year-old woman was reported missing on July 20th after being separated from friends while mountain biking at Panorama Mountain Resort, British Columbia. She was killed by a black bear who was right where the body was recovered at 8 a.m. July 21st. Indications were that the bear had preyed upon this person or obviously was trying to claim ownership. The bear was shot on site by RCMP.[2]

Samuel Evan Ives, 11, male June 17, 2007 Black Taken from a tent in American Fork Canyon in the Uinta National Forest in Utah County, Utah where he was sleeping with his stepfather, mother and 6-year-old brother. The bear was later destroyed by state Wildlife officials.[3]

Jean-Francois Pagé, 28, male April 28, 2006 Brown Fatally mauled while staking mineral claims near Ross River, Yukon, Canada. He unknowingly walked right past a bear den containing a sow and 2 cubs. [4]

Elora Petrasek, 6, female April 13, 2006 Black She was killed and her mother and 2 year-old brother seriously injured in an attack in the Cherokee National Forest in Tennessee.[5]

Arthur Louie, 60, male September 20, 2005 Brown Killed by a female and two cubs while he was walking back to his mining camp after his truck had a flat tire at Bowron River, British Columbia.[6]

Jacqueline Perry, 30, female September 6, 2005 Black Killed in a predatory attack at the Missinaibi Lake Provincial Park, north of Chapleau, Ontario, Canada. Her husband was seriously injured trying to protect her. Ministry staff shot and killed the bear at approximately 8:00 a.m. Saturday, September 10, 2005, near the area where the fatal attack occurred in a remote area of the park. [7][8] The bear involved had already attempted to attack two fisherman an hour before this attack occurred

Harvey Robinson, 69, male August 26, 2005 Black Fatally mauled while picking plums at Selkirk, north of Winnipeg, Manitoba.

Rich Huffman, 61, male; Kathy Huffman, 58, female June 23, 2005 Brown Killed in their tent at a campsite along the Hulahula river 12 miles upriver from Kaktovik in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Isabelle Dube, 35, female June 5, 2005 Brown Killed while jogging with 2 friends on the Bench Trail in Canmore, Alberta

Merlyn Carter, 71, male 2005 Black Found dead in the main cabin of his fishing camp located 300 km Northeast of Ft. Smith, Northwest Territories, Canada.

Timothy Treadwell, 46, male ; Amie Huguenard, 37, female October 2003 Brown Found by their pilot, dead and most of their bodies consumed at Kaflia Bay, Katmai National Park, Alaska on October 6, 2003. Treadwell was world-famous for his books and documentaries on living with wild bears in Alaska. State Troopers investigating the incident recovered an audiotape of the attack. Only a few days before, Treadwell filmed himself with the bear that killed him in the background, while commenting that it was a bear just like this one — older, struggling to bulk up for the winter — that posed the most threat to humans. The two were killed on the last night before their scheduled pickup, after spending several months in the Alaskan bush. [9]


Forestry worker April 17, 2003 Black Stalked, killed and partially consumed by a large, black bear near Waswanipi, a village in northern Quebec.

Christopher Bayduza September 2002 Black Attacked and killed at a remote oil rigging site in northeastern British Columbia.

Maurice Malenfant September 2002 Black Attacked and killed in his campsite in Gaspé region of Quebec.

Ester Schwimmer, 5 months, female August 2002 Black Bear grabs and kills 5 month old infant from stroller on the porch of home in Fallsburg, New York.

Timothy Hilston, 50, male October 30, 2001 Brown Bear attacked and killed an elk hunter as he was gutting an elk in Western Montana. [10]

Adelia Maestras Trujillo, 93, female August 2001 Black Bear breaks into a house in New Mexico and is confronted by the elderly owner who dies during the attack.

Kyle Harry, 18, male June 3, 2001 Black Attacked and killed at a rural campsite 25 km. east of Yellowknife in the Northwest Territories, Canada.

George Tullos, 41, male July 14, 2000 Brown His partially consumed body was found at Run Amuk campground in Hyder, Alaska.

Mary-Beth Miller, 24, female July 2000 Black Attacked and killed while on a training run in Quebec, Canada.

Glena Ann Bradley, female May 2000 Black Killed and partially consumed by a 112 pound female and her 40 pound yearling. The attack occurred near the Goshen Prong/Little River trail junction 1.5 miles upstream from Elkmont, Great Smoky Mountains near Gatlinburg, Tennessee

1990s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Ned Rasmussen, male November 1999 Brown Found dead 2 days after he disappeared on a deer hunting trip on Uganik Island, Alaska.

Ken Cates, 53, male May 25, 1999 Brown Killed while hiking on the Funny River Trail near Soldotna, Alaska. Investigators found bear blood at the scene, and determined that Cates fired two shots with his rifle scoring at least one hit. The bear was never found.

Craig Dahl, 26, male May 17, 1998 Brown Last seen alive hiking in the Two Medicine area of Glacier National Park. His partially consumed remains were found three days later.

Audelio Luis Cortes, 40, male February 8, 1998 Brown Killed by a single head bite while working with a seismic crew in the Swanson River oil field near Kenai, Alaska

Patti McConnell, 37, female August 17, 1997 Black Died from injuries while defending herself from attack near Liard River Hotsprings, British Columbia

Raymond Kitchen, 56, male August 17, 1997 Black Died from injuries while attempting to rescue McConnell. McConnell's 13 year old son and an unidentified 20 year Calgary Alberta man were also injured in the attack Liard River Hotsprings, British Columbia

Christine Courtney, 32, female July 5, 1996 Brown Killed while hiking in Kluane National Park, Yukon. Her husband was also attacked but survived.

Sevend "Sven" Satre, 53, male June 1996 Black Killed while checking fencelines at his rural ranch in British Columbia

Shane Fumerton, Bill Caspell October 9, 1995 Brown Killed by bears claiming shot elk near Radium Hot Springs, British Columbia

Marcie Trent, 77, female; and her son, Larry Waldron, 45 July 1, 1995 Brown Killed by a bear defending a moose carcass on the McHugh Creek Trail near Anchorage, Alaska.

Colin McClelland, 24, male August 10, 1993 Black Killed as a result of a crushed skull after a 240 pound male Black bear tore open the door to his trailer and attacked at WAGH Mountain, Colorado. The bear was later destroyed by game wardens.

John Petranyi, male October 3, 1992 Brown Attacked and killed by a female with 2 cubs on the Loop Trail, Upper McDonald Valley, Glacier National Park. The attack occurred less than 200 yards from the campground area where Julie Helgeson was dragged from her sleeping bag and killed in August 1967.

Darcy Staver, female July 8, 1992 Black Darcy was killed by her husband, he then left her to be partially consumed by a small Black Bear to cover up the murder. He is now serving a life sentence for first degree murder. His cover-up story was that Darcy was killed by a small black bear after retreating to the roof of her cabin to escape the bear's break-in to their cabin west of Glennallen, Alaska

Sebastien Lauzier, male June 14, 1992 Black Attacked and killed on field assignment near Cochrane, Ontario.

Raymond Jakubauskas, 32, and Carola Frehe, 48 October 11, 1991 Black Bates Island, Opeongo Lake, Algonquin Provincial Park, Ontario, Canada

Male camper May 26, 1991 Unknown Marten River Campground, Lesser Slave Lake, Alberta, Canada

1980s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments
Gary Goeden, male found September 1, 1987; missing since July 28, 1987 Brown His partially consumed remains were found at Natahki Lake, Many Glacier Valley, Glacier National Park.

Charles Gibbs, 40, male April 25, 1987 Brown He was last seen alive following and photographing a female with cubs at Elk Mountain in Glacier National Park. Investigators recovered film of the female approaching in attack mode at 50 yards.

William Tesinsky, photographer October 1986 Brown Approached an adult female too closely in the Otter Creek area of Hayden Valley, Yellowstone National Park.
Brigitta Fredenhagen July 1984 Brown Dragged from a tent during the night and killed at a backcountry campsite at the southern end of White Lake in Yellowstone National Park.[11]

Roger May June 1983 Brown Dragged from a tent during the night and killed at the Rainbow Point campground in the Gallatin National Forest just Northwest of Yellowstone National Park.

Laurence Gordon, male September 30, 1980 Brown Attacked and killed at the Elizabeth Lake campsite in the Belly River valley, Glacier National Park.

Male and Female August 17, 1980 Unknown Killed near Zama, Alberta, Canada

Jane Ammerman, female; Kim Eberly, male July 24, 1980 Brown Attacked and killed during the night at an illegal campsite at Divide Creek in the St. Mary valley, Glacier National Park.

Unknown July 18, 1980 Unknown Killed at Leo Creek, British Columbia, Canada

1970s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Unknown, male June 19, 1978 Black Porcupine Mountains State Park, Michigan

George Halfkenny, Mark Halfkenny, Billy Rhindress May 13, 1978 Black Stalked and killed while fishing near Radiant Lake, Algonquin Provincial Park, Ontario, Canada

Mary Pat Mahoney, 22, female September 23, 1976 Brown She was dragged from a tent and killed at Many Glacier campground in Glacier National Park.

Alan Precup, male August, 1976 Brown He disappeared while backpacking in the Alaskan wilderness. Days later, searchers found his campsite with his bare skeleton, one intact hand, and both feet, still booted.

Harry Walker June 1972 Brown Killed by a bear that was feeding on food that was left out at illegal campsite near Old Faithful Inn, Yellowstone National Park.

John Richardson, 31, male 1971 Black Killed while camping at West side of Rocky Mountain National Park.

1960s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Male October 1, 1968 Black Killed near Atikokan, Ontario, Canada.

Julie Helgeson, 19, female August 13, 1967 Brown Killed at Granite Park campsite in Glacier National Park by a female bear. Attack occurred during the night; bear dragged the victim off while still in her sleeping bag. Attack site was less than 200 yards from where John Petranyi was attacked and killed on the loop trail in 1992. Helgeson's companion, Roy Ducat, was severely mauled during the attack.

Michelle Koons, 19, female August 13, 1967 Brown Killed at Trout Lake campsite in Glacier National Park by a female bear. Although Helgeson and Koons were the same age and killed on the same night, these were separate attacks by different bears approximately 10 miles apart.[12]

1940s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Unknown August 1942 Species undetermined Killed at Old Faithful campground in Yellowstone National Park.

1910s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Unknown male 1916 Brown Killed at a roadside camp in Yellowstone National Park

1880's
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Franklin Devereaux, 52, male 4 Sept 1883 Unknown Killed in Cheboygan County, Michigan; victim was a hunter and trapper. Both Bear and victim were found dead — the bear of a gunshot wound and the hunter from a blow to his head from the bear.

This is the real world of hiking in bear country. Don't be a victim. Arm yourself. Some of these people probably thought.. "it won't happen to me." Or "bear attacks are so rare, I'll just take my chances" , or "I like bears and they have a right to share this world with me. We can all get along living together"

Sorry about the sarcasm, but too many people are intentionally naive just to try to sound tolerant and eco friendly. And they pay for it with there lives. Brum
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#86555 - 02/11/08 03:58 AM Re: bears - NOT Again! [Re: Brumfield]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 654
Loc: Upstate NY
Not a gun hater here but even in your examples it doesn't appear being armed provided the necessary security for some.

For me, it isn't an issue of whether to bring a gun, pepper spray etc... The most important piece of equipment one can bring in their brain. Knowledge is indispensable to avoid an encounter to begin with and also to "escape" before an encounter escalates.

Someone with pepper spray without taking the proper precautions is likely at greater risk than someone without pepper spray who does have the knowledge to avoid an encounter. Same with a person who arms themselves with the thought that "they can just shoot it". Sometimes equipment makes people susceptible to problems because they think that the equipment can replace using their brain. I think that this increases with the perceived "power" of the equipment. People feel safer so they take more chances. Like I said, the brain is the most important thing, but only if you use it.

Hey Brum, I like your posts. Maybe someday we will meet on the trail. Happy hiking.

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#86556 - 02/11/08 05:11 AM Re: death or death [Re: Ecrow]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I've had to draw a gun once in my life, but it was a human encounter and not a bear encounter. Fortunately the other individual came to his senses and vacated.

Disclaimer: I did not brandish. In fact, the other individual did not know I was holding a loaded weapon.

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#86557 - 02/11/08 07:03 AM Re: death or death [Re: Paddy_Crow]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Why are Black Bears are more dangerous out West, and particularly docile in places like New Brunswick? It seems to be a continuum. They are more dangerous in Ontario than New Brunswick and Maine, but more dangerous still as you go further west. There must be many reasons.

In general, they seem to be more dangerous in regions where there are other dangerous predators, such as wolves and grizzlies and cougars. I think it also has to do with how hostile the environment is to man, not just recently but over the past 1000 years or so. In regions where black bears have been hunted in their dens for food, especially where less aggressive females have been left alone, it would seem that some quasi-domestication has taken place over perhaps several hundred years or more. The bears in the northeast were a particularly important source of food in winter, perhaps especially so in the more distant past, because they are so high in fat compared to alternatives, and perhaps easier to hunt in their dens in the winter than inplaces further south or more mountainous. Of course there is a strong correlation between bears being more easily hunted and other predators being suppressed also. But if you compare New Brunswick to the Southern Appalachians, they might be less dangerous up here because they were a more important source of winter food, and fur. Not sure.

In Quebec and Ontario they were always hunted in much the same way, but I think as you go farther north the human population and impact was historically less significant compared to the bears and wolves, so the wilds were less tame. Perhaps a significant factor in Maine and the Maritimes was that trade with the south was easier, and the sea also provided a more significant source of food, mostly in summer, so the area supported a high human population compared to the bears, and so the bears were more impacted by selective hunting, and the eastern wolves and eastern cougars could be more effectively out competed by man, especially with the Gulf of St. Lawrence provided a barrier to migration, though never 100%.

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#86558 - 02/11/08 09:24 AM Re: bears - NOT Again! [Re: DTape]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Not a gun hater here but even in your examples it doesn't appear being armed provided the necessary security for some.

For me, it isn't an issue of whether to bring a gun, pepper spray etc... The most important piece of equipment one can bring in their brain. Knowledge is indispensable to avoid an encounter to begin with and also to "escape" before an encounter escalates.

Hey Brum, I like your posts. Maybe someday we will meet on the trail. Happy hiking.


Yes, I very much agree, using your brain is your best mode of protection, stop, think and then take action. I'm in no way trying to make light of your advice, often, though, my legs take action before my brain kicks into gear, so I'm mostly thinking while in a full lope escape mode. When under duress, out of the "fight or flight" options, I tend to use the flight choice first.

Then when looking over my shoulder while heading away from the cause of my duress, I begin to formulate other choices, such as... if that sucker gets any closer I'm gonna try to calm myself enough to shoot him in his snout, so his newly unhinged jaw won't work as well to chew on my butt.... It's also at that point that my brain, having ceased to have any further effect on getting my legs to move faster, says.... "hand... reach for your gun!" Then my stomach says, "Now, Rectum, things are messy enough as they are, give Brumfield just another minute or so to work this out before you get involved ." <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Not a coward, but even a covey of quail taking off without warning will give me a start if they're too close to the trail. I usually only skitter off a few feet when that happens. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the compliment, I'll be heading back to the states this fall to hike some of my favorite old trails and to see some new friends I've met on here. Probably see you then. Brum
_________________________



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#86559 - 02/11/08 07:00 PM Re: bears - NOT Again! [Re: Brumfield]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
This is certainly a very sobering list, and I think you definitely make your point that bears are potentially dangerous, and not some cute, warm, disneyesque creation. Still, over the span of time represented by your list, many more in the outdoors have died from falls, drowning, hypo/hyperthermia, or unfortunate use of recreational drugs. I don't have exact figures at hand, but I understand the honeybee kills about fifty people a year in the US. For some reason, we don't have extensive threads about measures to take against rampaging, berserk honeybees.

I heartily recommend "Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance" by Stephen Herrero. The greater part of the book are a series of indepth analyses of bear attacks. The author presents a series of recommendations to avoid bear attacks - principally, keep a clean camp. I find this to be a solid, objective piece of research and I recommend it highly.

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#86560 - 02/12/08 08:22 PM Re: Guns? [Re: finallyME]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Quote:
Yeah, people don't pay attention when they drive their cars. The simple act of paying attention to your surroundings would solve a lot of problems, not just in hiking.
The term for that is "Situational Awareness." Get too focussed ("I gotta get to camp before 5"), or go to a soft focus (i.e. daydream), you lose situational awareness. That's when the proverbial gorilla stops you in your tracks.

MNS

P.S. I'm eyeball deep in advanced ICS training this week... if you know what that is then you understand the gorilla <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Edited by midnightsun03 (02/12/08 08:23 PM)
_________________________
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#86561 - 02/13/08 12:38 PM Re: Guns? [Re: midnightsun03]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
I think this thread should be bookmarked or put into the Beginner's Forum to keep this thread from being discussed ad nauseum in the future <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86562 - 02/13/08 01:25 PM Re: bears - NOT Again! (DBB) Dead By Bear [Re: oldranger]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
OldRanger wrote;
Quote:

I heartily recommend "Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance" by Stephen Herrero.


Hey, Thanks for the book title. Another excellent source of bear info would be the National Geographic specials, The Grizzly Man, which is about the late Timothy Treadwel. And also NatGeo's special Hunter Hunted: Death Of The Bear Man which is about Vitaly Nikolaenko, who before his DBB (my newly coined abbreviation for "Death by Bear") had been observing brown bears in Russia’s Kamchatka region for 30 years.

What you'll find when you view these excellent documentaries is that both victims went way beyond respecting the bears acceptable comfort zone as related to space, distance, and just plain aggravation limit, and also that they (the victims) were unarmed.. The bear was armed, he brought teeth and claws with him every time he went out hiking.. we should be so smart. Well, Nikolaenko did have a two pound container of pepper spray in his hand when he became DBB.

Yes, I'm way ahead of you.. I know that Comrade Vitaly went on aggravating bears for 30 years without being killed, but the point is, he is NOW DBB, versus not NOW being DBB. I believe both DBB victims would have had a better chance with a G word in their posession. Preferably a .45 caliber Glock G word.

Oh yeah, not sure if this is true, but I heard the US Army is considering exchanging all of the troop's guns for pepper spray. To avoid the enemy from coming into camp, our young troops will only need to keep their barracks and outposts in the middle east clean of all Halal certified foods, and set up bivouac only in a "legal" (guaranteed that the bear, sorry.. Enemy, knows it's off bounds for him) government designated areas. I'm having trouble seeing the logic in that, but maybe I should just fall in line, and practice flat lining and praying toward Mecca five times daily, for if the election swings toward a certain choice, it is surely coming anyway? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Brum

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#86563 - 02/13/08 01:40 PM Re: bears - NOT Again! (DBB) Dead By Bear [Re: Brumfield]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Brum, now stop hacking into my avatar and posting my thoughts <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86564 - 02/13/08 01:54 PM Re: let's try a native's perspective [Re: Wolfeye]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Part of what shaped my attitude about bears was the native folklore I heard when I was young:


Hi Wolfeye, my grandmother was Chiricahua Apache and my brother and I used to love to sit at her feet and listen to her stories of our Indian heritage. One story that I still like to hear over and over, but my brother is not very fond of, is how children would be named by the father. As the tradition goes, the father would sit outside the tepee while the mid wife delivered the baby. With the first squalls of the newly born baby, the father would look out across the land, and trusting that the Great Mountain Spirit would send a sign of the child's Earth Name, would name the baby after the very first thing he saw. My dad saw a huckleberry bush in full fruit and named me Berry, my name has changed to Barry with time. I like the tradition and have kept my Earth Name all these years. However, my brother, Two Bears Humping, changed his Earth Name to Rocky years ago. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Brum
_________________________



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#86565 - 02/13/08 02:29 PM Re: let's try a native's perspective [Re: Brumfield]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Brum,

I've noticed a few of your posts laced with political and religious comments. If you wish to discuss those topics, perhaps a thread could be started in the off topic forum. But my feeling is that it should be left out of the discussion forums.

And that's all I have to say about that...

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#86566 - 02/14/08 01:13 PM Re: Religion and Politics on this forum [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Brum,

I've noticed a few of your posts laced with political and religious comments. If you wish to discuss those topics, perhaps a thread could be started in the off topic forum. But my feeling is that it should be left out of the discussion forums.

And that's all I have to say about that...

______________________________________________
Brumfield wrote:

Well, since you brought the subject up here, I'll reply to you here.

Paddy, please know that I am sorry that my two previous comments over the last eight weeks (relative to the post’s subject matter) on my faith in God, or my one brief one-line-view on world politics offended you. Also please recall that my remarks were to others as part in context of an ongoing discussion between them and myself, and were not directed at you, or alluding to you, nor was I intimating any sort of reference toward you.

Religion and politics are a part of my life. Every step I take on the trail or at home is directly affected by world politics. I don't shy away from discussing politics or religion because I know the majority of the people on this planet are in some way deeply involved in the betterment of their world through politics and religion.

I try to be limited in my discussion of religion on public (non relative) forums, since from experience, I've found that many people don't want to discuss religion due to their lack of a specific belief in God, and thus have no fact based input to offer. I have also known (but cannot empathize with) many that make a conscious choice to avoid considering eternity looming at their door because it frightens them. Discussion or comments regarding religion as applied to belief in God, which I assume is the content of my remarks that makes you uncomfortable, as you know, causes us all to question (as we certainly should) our own unavoidable future beyond this realm of existence. Some would rather ignore the inevitable and pretend it's not coming, while aided by suggesting, and in some cases, demanding, that the rest of us do the same by remaining silent. Those demanding silence regarding all of our eternal destinies fail to consider that they offend the informed among us to the greater degree by dictating their own beliefs, or in most cases, lack of any belief.

Now, to the issue of my remarks about "religion"on this backpacking forum website... Backpacking is the mode of transport I most often use to distribute Bibles to people here in Mexico. My faith in God and the eternal forgiveness of our punishment-due-sins offered through His Son, is not a form of “religion” to me. It is a state of being. It’s as tangible to me as my love for my family. I am guided by it, am strengthened by it, and I try to live according to its God given rules of behavior. My faith is as much a part of my day-to-day life as your work, favorite TV programs, or hobbies are to you. I can't very well speak of my life here in Mexico without mentioning the causal agency which empowers me to drag myself out of bed one more day, strap on a 70 pound backpack loaded with bibles, and head for the mountain villages. I mention my faith or relationship with God only in the context of my life, and on this backpacking forum only in the context of my life relative to subject matter at hand, or when the subject is broached by others, just as I often mention my wife and children. There is no offense intended, it is just the convention of conversation.

You may notice that I seem lighthearted in many of my posts, so much so, that I may sometimes place myself at risk of seeming foolish, and perhaps even shallow in my approach to life. Nothing could be further from the truth. The lighthearted view of life that I espouse is fueled from the sheer joy that I receive in knowing why I exist, what my and all of my fellow mankind’s purpose in life is, and most importantly, where and how, I, and the rest of us, will spend the greater part of our eternal existence. My joy is not to be confused with happiness. I’ve had my share of happiness in my life, all gained from materialism, wealth, travels, associations, adventure, and the like. The True Joy that causes me to joke and carry on in this forum is a part of my joyful countenance being directly expressed through my writing. If you could see me sitting here grinning as I write, you probably would better understand that I absolutely mean no harm or offense in my remarks.

Again, I'll say that I'm sorry that you are offended by my writings, but understand, I'm in no way apologizing for my faith, for I am NOT ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. Brum

PS: Here's something I've written that should be of interest to you, then again, perhaps not: http://IsraelsMessiah.com/religions/christianity/who_is_Jesus.htm
_________________________



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#86567 - 02/14/08 03:41 PM Re: Religion and Politics on this forum [Re: Brumfield]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I was not offended. I probably shouldn't have said anything, it's just that when politics and religion enters a discussion things get way off topic in a hurry and then they can get heated.

It was just a caution, that's all.

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#86568 - 02/14/08 05:00 PM Re: Religion and Politics on this forum [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Paddy, this forum, amazingly, sets itself apart from other boards in it's civility. I quit an astronomy board once because a Creation/Evolution argument started and probably continues to this day, bad language, threats, and everything. Folks have, including me, held out out their particular life and political leanings on this forum in the confidence that the maturity of our members draws it's own line. Rarely does a discussion get out of hand here, but yes, your concern is valid and I appreciate your warning. I personally enjoy learning of other folks slant on life, as it helps me know them better, relate to their stories, and increases the 'friendship' attribute this board proudly holds. As long as we all don't beat each other up, all is fine. Beater-uppers get pounced on pretty quick here. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#86569 - 02/14/08 05:26 PM Re: Religion and Politics on this forum [Re: Brumfield]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2837
Loc: Portland, OR
Brum,

Your beliefs, however much they animate you, give you joy, or teach you about the world and others, should probably be regarded as off-topic, except insofar as they pertain directly to backpacking.

Each forum at TLB has a topic. It is only respectful of the wishes of those who provide and maintain the forum to stay on topic when posting in these on-topic forums.

There is also an off-topic forum on TLB, where you should feel free - more than free - to introduce whatever whatever parts of your faith you wish to share, provided it is done in a responsible and respectful manner toward other forum participants. They, too, need to follow this path toward you.

I think you should be able to agree that everything I wrote above is sensible and not difficult to honor. It is not much to ask, really.

Thanks.

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#86570 - 02/14/08 07:04 PM Re: Religion and Politics on this forum [Re: aimless]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Brum,

Your beliefs, however much they animate you, give you joy, or teach you about the world and others, should probably be regarded as off-topic, except insofar as they pertain directly to backpacking.

Each forum at TLB has a topic. It is only respectful of the wishes of those who provide and maintain the forum to stay on topic when posting in these on-topic forums.

There is also an off-topic forum on TLB, where you should feel free - more than free - to introduce whatever whatever parts of your faith you wish to share, provided it is done in a responsible and respectful manner toward other forum participants. They, too, need to follow this path toward you.

I think you should be able to agree that everything I wrote above is sensible and not difficult to honor. It is not much to ask, really.

Thanks.



I totally agree, If I decide to preach, I'll go to the off topic, but I don't think I'll be doing that on here. I reach roughly 120,000 new viewers from around the world on my six religion related websites, per month. I have my audience. But, I will not cow tow to anyone that tries to dictate to me when and where I can give glory to God in my conversation. Anyone that wishes to demand that of me or anyone else should move to China. Brum
_________________________



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#86571 - 02/14/08 07:23 PM Re: bears - NOT Again! (DBB) Dead By Bear [Re: Brumfield]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Mr. Brumfeld:

But here's the problem:

Quote:
both victims went way beyond respecting the bears acceptable comfort zone as related to space, distance, and just plain aggravation limit, and also that they (the victims) were unarmed..

and then:

Quote:
I believe both DBB victims would have had a better chance with a G word in their posession. Preferably a .45 caliber Glock G word.


And of course, as far as those bears were concerned, those bears living their lives in their habitat trying to survive, it would have been best if those two, Timothy & Vitaly, had taken those .45 caliber Glocks, pointed them at their own temples, and squeezed the triggers.

In both instances, the deaths of those two would have been assured, and quite thankfully, by their own hand.

AND it would have saved those bears A LOT of aggravation, since both T & V were going to end up dead anyway. Then they (T & V) might have provided a meal to weasles, ravens and wolverines if they had taken their own lives (that they arguably did anyway) rather than provoking a larger wild animal in it's supposedly "protected" habitat from doing it for them. (That poor old bear in Treadwell's case was killed for doing TT's job for him, along with a couple of the innocent "usual suspects," if I'm not mistaken.)

The worst thing we can do is have a guy with a comb, a mirror, 10 takes on the video recorder, getting that close-up shot of HIM AND THE BEAR before he "defends" himself with several shots to the head of that agitated bear before he returns to civilization, fame and $$ with the all important video card in his hand, shedding crocodile tears (forgive me Hillary, others can have them, too) over having to, with remorse, terminate that incredible wild animal's life all in the name of getting on You-Tube, then getting an agent, a reality show -- the sky's the limit here.

It's a gray area. Where does adventure -- bushwacking, backcountry experiences -- end, and wildlife harassment begin? Yes, if you are in Alaska or the Yukon territories, being armed is essential. But don't think it's a given for every hair-brained, bear-harassing lame idea of "unique backcountry adventure." Being a well-armed Timothy Treadwell is the scariest thing I can think of -- and absolutely contradictory to what I believe is a wilderness adventurer.

Once again, I have to state: Perusing the multitude of gun forums on the Internet, I have seldom come across a single topic titled:

My hike in the wilderness, enjoying a quiet stream, a tranquil, peaceful day in the outback, with my gun.

Why is that?

No, seldom seen. Instead, we end up with countless posts on this hiking form on the most esoteric BS on the lightest weapon we can use to shoot (in self-defense, mind you) the animals we all went out in the wilderness to see in the first place.

Gosh, I guess I've made my position known.

You gotta realize that a lot of us lurking around this recurring "hiking while heavily armed -- 'by the way, you got hollowpoints in that thing'?" topic do not believe in taking guns into the wilderness, including the areas where you can LEGALLY take them. We'll take our chances and enjoy the wildlife, and if we harass it and it eats us, well, "jeez, maybe we had it coming."

And use non-lethal bear spray when necessary to defend ourselves, at least in the lower 48.
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#86572 - 02/14/08 08:43 PM Re: bears - NOT Again! (DBB) Dead By Bear [Re: kevonionia]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Quote:
Yes, if you are in Alaska or the Yukon territories, being armed is essential.
I don't think a gun is essential in Alaska. Actually, bears here have so much space and ample food supplies (at least the blackies and browns) most years that they have no reason to be aggressive toward the occassional human interloper, so long as the human practices situational awareness and doesn't get between a sow and her cubs. Do bears attack? Sometimes - most often runners who may be mistaken initially as prey, or who unknowingly get between a sow and cubs while running. There are a few maulings in AK every year, but fatalities are very rare. Generally speaking, bears here have plenty of room to disappear before their presence is even known. The primary time I would worry about bears in AK would be while hunting or fishing - bears being opportunistic creatures would smell your kill and think easy lunch.

Situational Awareness... in AK that is your best defense. Bear spray is a good backup.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#86573 - 02/15/08 07:10 AM Re: bears - NOT Again! (DBB) Dead By Bear [Re: kevonionia]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
T & V did something similar to what is know as 'suicide by cop".

A law enforcement friend has delt with the aftermath several times. When the unwilling participant is a human they carry the scar the rest of their life, when it is a wild animal they die.

Sad, very sad.

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#86574 - 02/15/08 07:18 AM Re: Religion and Politics on this forum [Re: Brumfield]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
But, I will not cow tow to anyone that tries to dictate to me when and where I can give glory to God in my conversation. Anyone that wishes to demand that of me or anyone else should move to China


I don't believe anyone has dictated any such thing. However, this website and others like it should not be confused with free speech zones. Subject matter and rules of decorum are set by the owner and those appointed as moderators. We can voice an opinion, but it is ultimately up to their discretion.

When people who don't share a set of beliefs are referred to as "deceived and deluded" or when derogatory comments are posted about other religions and political candidates, someone is bound to take umbrage. I may be going out on a limb here, but I believe the owner of this website would prefer that such exchanges be excluded from the discussion forums.

For the record, anyone who tells me to move from my homeland is likely to receive an equally disrespectful (or more so) reply.

Now, can we return to the subject of bears?


Edited by Paddy_Crow (02/15/08 07:41 AM)

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#86575 - 02/15/08 08:00 AM Re: bears - (DBB) Dead By Bear - Suicide by bear [Re: ringtail]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
T & V did something similar to what is know as 'suicide by cop".

A law enforcement friend has delt with the aftermath several times. When the unwilling participant is a human they carry the scar the rest of their life, when it is a wild animal they die.

Sad, very sad.


Yes, it is sad. While viewing the NatGeo special on Timothy Treadwel, I couldn't help thinking that Tredwel had suicidal tendencies. His manner of approaching the grizzlies was comparable to walking out on the freeway at night while dressed in black. Even before seeing the end of the documentary and learning that he was killed by a bear, it kinda gave me the creeps when he repeated over and over again, "I want to become one with the bears". He really did get his wish when he "became one" with the bear that ate him. Treadwel has also now become one with the earth through the soil on which his digested remains were deposited. Suicide by bear... interesting point of view, and I think you may be right on in Timothy Treadwel's case. Brum
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#86576 - 02/15/08 09:23 AM Back to Bears....everyone stay on topic. [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas

Ok, everyone, lighten up and go back to your corners.

We're talking about Bears here. PM, "Off Topic", or 'new' thread for anything else.

This is not directed at anyone specifically.

Paul <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (still smiling)
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#86577 - 02/15/08 10:51 AM Re: Back to Bears....everyone stay on topic. [Re: Dryer]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Do you think they will win their division next year, or do you like the Packers to repeat? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#86578 - 02/15/08 11:03 AM Re: let's try a native's perspective [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
Brum,

I've noticed a few of your posts laced with political and religious comments. If you wish to discuss those topics, perhaps a thread could be started in the off topic forum. But my feeling is that it should be left out of the discussion forums.

And that's all I have to say about that...


Folks, let's be civil here, Barry was'nt intentionally injecting his religion into his posts. The Man IS doing the Lord's work by going to help less fortunate folks; and if he should make mention of it it's in passing as I understand it. Tolerance is something we here on this forum should advocate, and I'm no poster child for it myself <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Once a thread 'wanders' it detracts from the OP's information thread when someone looks it up in the future. I'll make you ALL a deal, if everyone who posted from Paddy Crow down from the post I am quoting; will PM a moderator and allow their post to be moved off this thread, to a new thread in Off Topic with the heading Barry's Views; I'll RESTRAIN myself from posting ANY emoticons for a whole WEEK of my posts <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

So that means the above emoticon will be my last until a week from today...Who's in?
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86579 - 02/15/08 11:19 AM Re: Back to Bears....everyone stay on topic. [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Hmmmm....Yeah, I guess "Bears" is the same thing as "da Bears".

Ok, we can talk about 'bears' OR "Bears". This should be REAL interesting.
Maybe..."The rights of the citizen to keep and arm Bears shall not be infringed..."
Should the 'Packers' carry guns, or, Bear spray?
All this, and more, on the 6 o'clock news! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Paddy! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Enough.....'bears'. Little 'b'.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#86580 - 02/15/08 12:37 PM Re: Back to Bears....everyone stay on topic. [Re: Dryer]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> And my post above was not intended to say that Paddy Crow was being less than civil. I just quoted that post because it was at the top of the portion of thread that was unrelated to the Bear topic IMO.

No insult intended to Paddy Crow, just want to set the record straight...The Giants WON the SUPERBOWL! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />...and I'm a Patriots fan <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86581 - 02/15/08 01:55 PM Re: Back to Bears....everyone stay on topic. [Re: Paddy_Crow]
drow42 Offline
member

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Washington, DC
Quote:

Do you think they will win their division next year, or do you like the Packers to repeat?


While they might need a new quaterback, shooting him is not a solution.

And neither is shooting the Packers.

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#86582 - 02/15/08 07:06 PM Here we go again... [Re: Brumfield]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
I know how you feel Brum... I was (continually) attacked for asking to spray before you shoot. I have nothing against guns or people who use them.That list is very sobering and I think some people go to the extreme and act like bears are just teddies.

I saw a video of a bear attacking a mannequin as part of a test and in 2 minutes there was a nothing but a pile of mannequin parts on the ground! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I notice that some of the people on the list are (armed?) hunters. Maybe the smell of fresh game attracted the bears.

I still stand by my 4 part plan:

At 50 feet-Noise
25 feet- noise, draw weapon and spray
15 feet-spray
12 feet-Lethal Force (gun)

But that is just me! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
PS: I have been attacked by a bear. Luckily I had a jumbo can of spray in a holster, the bear ran away after I sprayed about 3/4 of the can in it's face. It ripped up my tent though.
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#86583 - 02/15/08 08:52 PM Re: Here we go again... [Re: cheap]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2837
Loc: Portland, OR
PS: I have been attacked by a bear.

I congratulate you on the outcome of your encounter. I greatly hope those who advocate the use of guns more quickly than you will stop and consider well , before they comment on this fact in a way that might impugn your choice not to use your gun in this situation. Most especially if they have not faced a similar situation themselves.

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#86584 - 02/16/08 07:26 AM Re: Back to Bears. stay on topic. Final Score [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Do you think they will win their division next year, or do you like the Packers to repeat? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I like the Bears, heaven knows who'll win though. It would take a miracle to prophesy the final outcome of the game unless we've been given a tip in advance by the teams' owner. But, once the ball is dead, the field judge declares the game as being finally over, and we're on our way home, or where ever we go after the big game, we'll all know the final score.

If we don't like the scoring result, it'll be too late to argue with the Referee at that point cause his word is final. Although I can't give any specific numbers, I'd bet my soul there won't be a tie, but that there will be a very decisive final score of winners and losers. If I were playing as quarterback for the Bears, and knowing I'd be held personally accountable for my actions, with the clock about to run out, I'd take the least risk play by kneeling after the snap. I find much joy in the game of football. I like da Bears and I pray my team will win. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Brum
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#86585 - 02/16/08 09:50 AM Re: Back to Bears. stay on topic. Final Score [Re: Brumfield]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
If we're going to delve into whether football is the one true sport and if participants and proponents of other sports are following false athletes, perhaps that too should be taken to the off topic forum...

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#86586 - 02/16/08 09:56 AM Re: Here we go again... [Re: cheap]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2742
Loc: California
I have had tons of bear encounters but no attacks. I have never had to go beyond your "Step 1". What I always wondered is once you spray a bear and you have used up your spray, you are still out there and the bear is mad. What do you do then? Has a bear ever come back after being sprayed? If you are out of spray, do you cut your trip short and go back?

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#86587 - 02/16/08 10:13 AM Re: Back to Bears. stay on topic. Final Score [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Informed people know that football is the 'anti-sport'. Fishing is the one true sport....with bears. (had to tie in 'bears' to stay on topic)
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#86588 - 02/16/08 12:17 PM Re: bears - Dead By Bear - Hunters versus Hikers [Re: kevonionia]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
I can tell that you also saw the video. At one point during the video of Treadwel I found myself wanting the bear to bite him. He did.... no further comment... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Oh, by the way, most hunters don't go out to hike and enjoy nature as hikers and backpackers do, nor do they go ,just to see the animals, so we're talking about two different groups here. I personally don't hunt for sport, nor do I wave a gun around if I'm carrying. And as far as weight consideration, if I'm purchasing or choosing a weapon to carry to protect my loved ones, whether on the trail or on the streets, I don't let a few ounces of extra weight become a controlling influence on my choice. Weight takes second place to utility of the weapon's intended use. Actually, the worse the neighborhood, or the wilder the countryside, the bigger the caliber is pretty much a standard with me. Just another one of the many times in life that weight is simply not that important. I've been on backpacking trips with guys from all walks of life that never mentioned the gun they were carrying, but after a rainy day on the trail, you could smell the gun oil coming from their tents at night.

Gun owners don't normally fit the opinions non gun owners have of them. I'm licensed to carry a concealed weapon, but I don't carry a weapon everywhere I go. I never brandish the weapon and I make a conscious effort to keep it concealed. I don't mention that I'm carrying, and will avoid a direct positive response even if anyone asks me if I'm carrying... other than a police officer, of course. Seeing me in town dressed in a business suit and wingtips or out on the trail in my TNF jacket, Gi II hiking pants, and Asolos, you would not be able to tell I was carrying... unless there was trouble..

But, so no one will go and take anything I say as being directed at them personally, as seems to often happen here... just forget everything I just said. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Brum
_________________________



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#86589 - 02/16/08 12:54 PM Re: Back to Bears - Final Score - Other Sports [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
If we're going to delve into whether football is the one true sport and if participants and proponents of other sports are following false athletes, perhaps that too should be taken to the off topic forum...


Well...the subject at hand was, da bears, and if I recall they are a football team, but, sure, if it will make you happy, we can discuss other sports if you prefer, but no matter what you call the game, they all will have a final score... some winners some losers. As you can tell by my comments here, I enjoy participating in contact sports. I tend to shy away from living my life or playing sports vicariously.... so you won't see me in the stands, I'll most likely be out on the field right in the middle of the fracas, but only taking the Referee's side. He rules, ya know. Just my nature.

If you want to further discuss any of the other sports, we should not do it on this forum, people are beginning to talk... just use the contact page located at my website here:

http://FalseMessiahs.com/

It's on this playing field that I get daily exercise.. it's also one of my favorite, much better than the Super Dome!

And lighten up, no need to think this song is about you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Brum
_________________________



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#86590 - 02/16/08 01:10 PM Re: bears - Dead By Bear - Hunters versus Hikers [Re: Brumfield]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Quote:
Oh, by the way, most hunters don't go out to hike and enjoy nature as hikers and backpackers do, nor do they go ,just to see the animals, so we're talking about two different groups here.


Can't say I agree with that. I'm not simply saying this because I do hunt and I'm not like that at all(I plan on studying for Wildlife Biology when I start college this year). In fact I'm basing this off of my own empirical evidence and experience , which I assume you are as well. I won't deny those hunters exist, you see them on TV as trophy hunters(which by the way isn't a terrible thing necessarily to go for large animals only, but that's a whole other subject), or as some redneck fool looking to drink beer and just wanting to shoot just about anything and everything. Many of the hunters I've come across(even it seems many of those from the television) seem to enjoy being outside and seeing the many animals that populate the area while hunting.

For the most part, the many hunters I've encountered over my years of hunting seem to generally enjoy and appreciate what's around them while they are out there hunting. Now yes, they are two different groups, that won't be denied. But this does not mean simply that just because a hunter is out there to find a specific animal and kill it means that is all they are there for. A persons intentions can obviously be ambiguous, as in my opinion they seem to be for those hunters whom I've encountered for the most part.

Maybe hunters don't go about enjoying nature by simply being in it, they also partake in it as well. I personally enjoy the fact that when and if I take an animal, that what happens at that point has been going on since before time itself has been recorded, along with the fact that I'm providing for myself. Now neither you nor I can prove our points otherwise, I doubt seriously that there are any reliable polls or statistics on the matter if they exist at all. But, I think most hunters might take offense to the above quoted statement. By the way, I'd also like to point out I'm not attacking you Brum, I generally enjoy a good number of your posts. I'm simply just presenting another opinion that may or may not be right.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#86591 - 02/16/08 01:39 PM Re: bears - NOT Again! (DBB) Dead By Bear [Re: midnightsun03]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Quote:
Yes, if you are in Alaska or the Yukon territories, being armed is essential.
I don't think a gun is essential in Alaska. Actually, bears here have so much space and ample food supplies (at least the blackies and browns) most years that they have no reason to be aggressive toward the occasional human interloper, so long as the human practices situational awareness and doesn't get between a sow and her cubs. Do bears attack? Sometimes - most often runners who may be mistaken initially as prey, or who unknowingly get between a sow and cubs while running. There are a few maulings in AK every year, but fatalities are very rare. Generally speaking, bears here have plenty of room to disappear before their presence is even known. The primary time I would worry about bears in AK would be while hunting or fishing - bears being opportunistic creatures would smell your kill and think easy lunch.

Situational Awareness... in AK that is your best defense. Bear spray is a good backup.

MNS


Hey, WhiteNight
Excellent advice! Do you find the bears to be more aggressive when their food supply is low? e.g. Do the migratory related spawning habits of the salmon (as a food supply to the bears) have any direct sway on the bears' societal relation to man, or for that matter, within their own caniform carnivora family? Have you seen any evidence of this? I know I get pretty grumpy when I don't get enough to eat. And it's very visible to everyone. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Happy and safe flying, Brum
_________________________



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#86592 - 02/16/08 01:44 PM Re: Here we go again... [Re: wandering_daisy]
NiytOwl Offline
member

Registered: 11/06/04
Posts: 501
Loc: California
Quote:
I have had tons of bear encounters but no attacks. I have never had to go beyond your "Step 1". What I always wondered is once you spray a bear and you have used up your spray, you are still out there and the bear is mad. What do you do then? Has a bear ever come back after being sprayed? If you are out of spray, do you cut your trip short and go back?


You should ask a skunk that question <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, the manufacturers of bear spray have taken this into account and include enough product for at least two sustained shots. But most animals, bears included, learn from experience. If the attack results in pain and discomfort, the bear will learn and leave you alone. OTOH, if pain and discomfort are not enough to dissuade the bear, then perhaps the bear is starving, rabid, etc.. In that case, I hope you brought a gun.

Now before I get jumped, I'm not advocating that you carry a gun. We all take chances, based on our personal evaluation of the risks. It's an individual's choice. Some choose to cover all the bases, while others don't. It's your choice. That's what I like about this country - it's still your choice.

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#86593 - 02/16/08 01:50 PM Re: bears - Dead By Bear - Hunters versus Hikers [Re: MattnID]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I would have to agree with Matt's point of view here. Yes, I also hunt.

I think the part that would bother me is your assertion of "Most hunters" - malarky. most
hunters I know *who stick with the sport* have very similar attiudes about the wilderness to most of the avid hikers I know who don't hunt. If you're out there for no other reason than to kill something, frankly, you don't last in the sport, because you simply won't have fun when you don't, and to enjoy it, well you have to.

Just as in any crowd, there are slobs and boneheads who participate. for whatever the reason, however generalizing this to "most" is really not fair.

Are there people who pick up a rifle who are idiots and are out there for the wrong reasons? yes. Just as there are people who put on a backpack, fill it with beer and steaks,
go 5 miles in, make a mess of their campsite, leave food out for the bears and generally make a nuisance of themselves to anyone within hearing distance.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#86594 - 02/16/08 02:14 PM Re: Here we go again... [Re: NiytOwl]
hootyhoo Offline
member

Registered: 12/14/06
Posts: 686
Loc: Cyberspace
If there are no bears in your house...

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#86595 - 02/16/08 02:44 PM Re: bears - Dead By Bear - Hunters versus Hikers [Re: MattnID]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
By the way, I'd also like to point out I'm not attacking you Brum, I generally enjoy a good number of your posts. I'm simply just presenting another opinion that may or may not be right. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Brumfield wrote:

Hey, Matthew! Your opinion as stated is certainly valid, I'm considering it now.

But first let me get something straight here if you don't mind. And this is not directed at you Matthew... you're cool

What I'm about to say is within context of an on-topic reply to a poster's remarks, so please allow me say, with all respect due; all those that think my replies should be removed to the "off topic" section can just back off. I am not required to answer questions or respond to remarks made directly to me at another location on this site. If you speak to me publicly under a particular topic, as it should be, then I'll answer you right there under that same topic. It's only fair and reasonable. And it's a shame that this point even has to be brought up.

Now, Matthew, please let me assure you, that I do not in any way feel your remarks are an attack on me. I don't feel I've ever been attacked on here, but, by the number of emails I receive from members in which they're concerned that my feelings have been hurt by someone's remarks, yet, maybe so, and I simply didn't realize it. I guess I've become sort of calloused to what many would consider as an attack. If someone is not actually threatening to behead me (got that one last night by email... again) then I don't feel it is an attack. I don't take people stating their opinion, that may vary from mine, as being an attack. I'm pretty secure in what I believe, but will readily admit if I'm wrong. Now don't think I have latent masochistic desires to be a pin cushion or dart board and everybody just stick me at will or throw your best shot, I might decide to "pray for those that make themselves my enemy and bring down hot coals on their head". I'd give you the scripture and verse to that one, but we're not suppose to do that on here.

Thank you for your post and your kindness, but, you need not worry about my being overly sensitive. I've been chased, caught, slapped, beaten with fist and sticks, pepper sprayed, cursed at, and just generally cursed (by witches), stoned (by the same witches), imprisoned, and left to die, and I'm still here. But I certainly appreciate and respect your sensitivity. May all good things that you set your heart to come to fruition. Brum
_________________________



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#86596 - 02/16/08 02:59 PM Re: Hunters versus Hikers - Most Boneheads [Re: phat]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Phat wrote;
Quote:
Just as in any crowd, there are slobs and boneheads who participate. for whatever the reason, however generalizing this to "most" is really not fair.


Brumfield wrote:
Phat, I agree, "most" was an over statement, sorry, that might have been a typo <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> where I meant to say "many". Would you feel more comfortable with "some"? I can edit it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Brum

It was the many "boneheads" I hunted with in my youth, that I had on my mind when I wrote "most" instead of "some" or "a few" or "only down South". Particularly the one bonehead that shot his dog <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> because he didn't run any deer past him that day... Brum
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#86597 - 02/17/08 12:27 PM Re: bears - Dead By Bear - Hunters versus Hikers [Re: phat]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
All of which goes to demonstrate that it is very difficult to come up with a "one size fits all" characterization of any reasonably large group of humin critters. Stereotyping is bad business.

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#86598 - 02/17/08 05:57 PM Re: Guns? Five-year-old kills a bear [Re: MattnID]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
Quote:
Practice food, smell, and cooking techniques, but if you are in a group smaller than three, carrry a glock. Carry a glock.

Ecrow


Have you ever seen what a slug does to an animal? Well I have and a bear wouldn't fair so well if hit by one.


Brumfield wrote:
Anyone seen this? http://www.katv.com/news/stories/1207/479365.html Brum
_________________________



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#86599 - 02/17/08 09:43 PM Re: Guns? Five-year-old kills a bear [Re: Brumfield]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
You know, I was thinking about doing some hiking in Arkansas in late spring, maybe even get to observe a large black bear in the 400-pound range while out hiking on the trail, but then I see that this 5 year old sitting up in this stand ambushed the big 400-pound bear. Shot him.

So now this bear is dead and neither I nor anyone else will see him. He was a magnificent creature, not culled from the population because of sickness or age, but shot dead by a five year old simply because, well, he was an awesome creature who made the big mistake (while searching for food) of passing by the stand of a 5 year old who happened to be the great, great whatever of Davy Crockett (yeah, right, so's the half of Arkansas that can trace their lineage back to DC and one mom.)

The bear's dead. And I'm trying to figure out why I want to go hike in Arkansas.

I'm of Scandinavian descent. My great, great and more great whoever slew some bears and some Anglo-Saxons a while back. But this is 2008, and I'm asking, "So what?"

I was a hunter. Killed a squirrel when I was 14 with a gun. Agonized over it for a while and finally said I wouldn't do that again. Haven't. Just a different perspective on the hiking forum.

(Like the bear, I sure took this bait.)
_________________________
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(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#86600 - 02/19/08 01:06 PM Re: Guns? Five-year-old kills a bear [Re: kevonionia]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Kev,

I have to agree with your post, it does seem insane for a 5 year old <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> to be in a tree stand hunting to me. I doubt that child even knew what his actions were that day, just another hillbilly kid being 'taught' by hillbilly father that "it's ok to kill something just 'cause" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I can't for the likes of me figure out why the whle of the hunting community did not come down like a hammer on that articel <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Kind of makes me take a step back and wonder what 'values' the hunting orginizations are implying a 5 year old gets from killing an animal of that nature?

I was raised hunting and fishing, and the rule was; you shot/caught it, you cleaned it and ate it. Otherwise, you should not have shot or killed it in the first place <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

For the past 2 weeks I have been trying to relocate a wounded deer on the farm. I think it's coming and going from the area as I have'nt seen since I reported it. I intially looked out my window to see if my 3 kittens were playing in the yard, and glanced into the woods to see a buck hobbling along on 3 good legs and limping with his left front leg. It took me 2 seconds to see that it' had been shot in the shoulder above the leg by a lame a** hunter <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Out of season, so I call NJ DEP, they send a local police officer 30 minutes later. I speak to the PO for a few minutes and tell him where the deer is bedded down. What does he do, he drives his patrol car within 25ft of the deer <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> gets out and asks me again where the deer is, I point, and he says, "it's ok, I'm a hunter, stand behind my car" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I watch as he walks up to within 10ft of the deer without a weapon in his hand (apparently thinking he would just pop the deer with his service weapon <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />). The deer rises, spins, and bolts in 3 leaps so far out of sight that even I can't tell where it went <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> So the PO asks me,"Was that the deer?" and I tell him, "Yeah, that's WAS the fastest 3 legged deer I've ever seen" <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> He intially did'nt believe me that the deer was wounded, until I explained to him that it had JUST bedded down and was 'alerted' to him once he pulled up, and then when he walked/stalked upon it, it got an adrelaine rush and bolted for all it's life. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

My regret was not just killing it myself when I saw it then reporting it for an 'emergency tag'; at least then the deer would be out of his misery. A few days later I was speaking to a nearby neighbor about it and he told me 3 'city boys' were asking if he'd seen a deer, since they thought they had hit one <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> So, you see, a few 'hunters' crap all over the place for the rest of the bunch; and they wonder why they get denied to hunt farms all over <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> My buddy had a holstein cow shot last year up in CT by some 'city slickers' out 'hunting' state land that borders his farm. If it was my cow i would've shot back <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86601 - 02/19/08 01:07 PM Re: Back to Bears. stay on topic. Final Score [Re: Dryer]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
Informed people know that football is the 'anti-sport'. Fishing is the one true sport....with bears. (had to tie in 'bears' to stay on topic)


That'd be fly fishing to the unintiated, and better yet from a nice 'yak <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86602 - 02/19/08 01:19 PM Re: Back to Bears. stay on topic. Final Score [Re: Earthling]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Quote:
Informed people know that football is the 'anti-sport'. Fishing is the one true sport....with bears. (had to tie in 'bears' to stay on topic)


That'd be fly fishing to the unintiated, and better yet from a nice 'yak <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Well, yeah, you've just defined 'total enlightenment' (ULTRA-enLIGHTenment) within the one true sport of fishing. Only a few make it to that level, which transends bears. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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09/28/17 09:47 AM
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
alcohol stove comparisons
by Bike_packer
10/03/17 08:56 PM
Can footprint plasticizer harm tent ground-sheet?
by Weston1000
09/10/17 02:24 AM
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