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#86531 - 02/05/08 12:50 PM Re: Guns? [Re: chaz]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Even though, like Phat, Jim and some others here, I have extensive gun handling and shooting experience; I'd have to go the Bear Spray route for sanity. When I'm packing a side arm it takes away from my being able to enjoy the backpacking experience because of my gun handling experience. Sounds strange until you realize the responsibilty of having that firearm in your possession and meeting up with other folks. Lots of folks get 'gun curious' when they realize there is one around, making it more stressful to me because I don't like to let folks handle my guns. I can't tell how much gun sense or handling experience they have, and i don't want to find out when it's too late <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

The majority of bear encounters can be avoided with proper camp etiquitte IME. Black bears are curious about your camp, but most are easily dissuaded from coming into camp, unless they have been habituated by previous sloppy campers <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. Browns, grizzlies are a whole different game since they know they are the king of the mountains/top of the food chain; but even they can be dissuaded by a good can of bear spray IME. I've seen firsthand a grizzly go scampering off as soon as the bear spray let loose.
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86532 - 02/05/08 03:25 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
I just got emailed some pictures of what a polar bear did to a poor sleeping camper, after the bear came through the tent wall and attacked. The guy had the strength to get to his side arm and shoot the bear, killing it. The man should have died from his injuries. I can forward to anyone wanting to see, but it's very graphic.
Point is....
The severity of the injuries tells me that a 'nice' spray would have gotten the guy killed.
Personally, things like fire starters, or parachutes, or deterrents/self protection, I want it ALL and I want it NOW. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> If I hike where I need self protection (rare, if ever...texas/mexican border is a good example), my 12 ga. riot gun will be slung over my shoulder and it will be the first line of defense, not secondary. If a bear/human/etc. gets through spray, you won't have time to turn up the heat, and one that gets close enough to spray....is too close. It crossed the line. Police will tell you about the effectiveness of spray being unreliable...against humans, not a 1500 pound charging mass of teeth and claws. I have hiked in Alaska and the guide carried a rifle...comforting to me...and no one cared to see or play with it. It was a 'fixture' for the guide walking point. Spray might work sometimes but I'd rather carry big iron and be sure.

Interestingly, no one has talked about Tasers. Our local cops prefer Tasers over spray, 100%. Tasers are available to the public now.



Eugene....bears don't "scamper".... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> That's what bunnies do! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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#86533 - 02/05/08 03:56 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Paul, folks choose what they need for their specific situations. Polar bears are much different to deal with than even grizzlies and I would be packing heat up there. I had a friend that used to guide up on the Artic Circle so i know what's up with polar bears.

You make some valid points, but I was'nt talking of guides carrying, I'm talking fellow backpackers who take interest in my firearms in the field. Just my experiences, your's differ apparently.

I saw the bear 'scamper' off, ok, maybe it 'skeedaddled' but it was heading away from our party and the spray. the spray reached out and touched the bear at 20+ft IMO.

I feel confident about holding my own in the wilds with the 2 legged variety, bring'em on <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86534 - 02/05/08 04:35 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Quote:

I feel confident about holding my own in the wilds with the 2 legged variety, bring'em on <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I dunno. Bigfoot might put up a heck of a fight. I mean, nobody ever hears about anyone winning a fight against a bigfoot, so we can only assume the worst I'd come to reason. But hey, if you wanna take 'em on, best of luck. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#86535 - 02/05/08 07:29 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Dryer
quote
______________________________
Police will tell you about the effectiveness of spray being unreliable...against humans, not a 1500 pound charging mass of teeth and claws. I have hiked in Alaska and the guide carried a rifle...comforting to me...and no one cared to see or play with it. It was a 'fixture' for the guide walking point. Spray might work sometimes but I'd rather carry big iron and be sure.
___________________________________

I read in a (very old) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />guides manual (from Herters) <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> once that you should spit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />in the mouth <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> of a charging grizzly bear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> It will stop him and you will be the king of the woods. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hope yer mouth ain't dry! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
P.S. Eartling. Funny - when I run into people no one wants to touch my gun. Guess maybe a large frame .44 revolver in a shoulder holster doesn't say "reach out and touch me". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#86536 - 02/05/08 11:24 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Earthling]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I've heard they studied the spray on Polar bears, - it apparently does *not* work well
on them. either it's the eylid and nostril reactions they use for diving under water, or
they don't care, or they like their food spicy.

So I will caveat my answer to "bears" - Grizzlys don't worry me much, bear spray and
common sense. Polar bears OTOH, are 100% predator.

So, if you find me in polar bear country, I'll be carrying a rifle. No handgun, no spray.
something that can throw a big heavy nosler partition from stem to stern...
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#86537 - 02/06/08 05:06 AM Re: bears [Re: MattnID]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
I have to agree with your post verbatum, and agree that mace and guns and being aware are key to the chance encounter with a charging sow trying to protect her cubs. There is a article on bear attacks in the current issue of Outdoor life. To sum up. Some guy's are hunting and hear something in the woods. The sow fixed on one of the hunters and charged. They had to shoot several times to bring the bear down, leaving two cubs to be rescued and placed in a zoo. Killing anything for me would be a last resort. But for my protection or survival I wouldn't hesitate for a split second.

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#86538 - 02/06/08 10:49 PM Re: Guns? [Re: MattnID]
Ecrow Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 85
Loc: N. New Mexico
You are right Matt AK, My Mossberg is way amazing with slugs. But I hardly consider it appropriate for hiking unless I'm up north. (like you) And a 9mm IS way too small. But Pepper spray is not at all confident inspiring. I like to squeeze off a few panic/warning shots as I urinate down my leg, it makes me feel much more confident and it alerts everything around me. And those last few rounds at two feet....they won't miss.

Ecrow
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Ecrow
Live to tell.

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#86539 - 02/07/08 06:09 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Ecrow]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
A charging bear can exceed 50 feet per second, so the notion of having time to squeeze off several rounds is unrealistic. Chances are, the bear will be on you before you can draw your weapon or you will only get off one unaimed shot.

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#86540 - 02/07/08 08:05 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Well, while I won't deny the fact that bears can cover some ground fast, they don't immediately start out at full speed. So while a bear can cover 50 feet in a second, they aren't going to be doing that with the first few strides.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#86541 - 02/07/08 08:24 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Charging bear.
50 feet in one second. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />I have always stated that if an animal is charging and it is more than 25 feet away, you might have a chance to fire 2 <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />rounds with an automatic, BUT if the animal is within 25 feet you will get one shot off <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />and since you won't have the Luxury of firing instantly, it will be and should be at point blank range <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />. Unless you are hunting there is no excuse for killing a bear that isn't actually about to knaw on you. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Alaska law codifies this.

This means that if you do not have a gun capable of stopping that bear with one shot, you may not survive the encounter and the bear may die uneccesarily as well due to your panic and over protection. You shouldn't be in Bear country if you can't deal with one around. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

For the most part bears are not dangerous to humans. I have run into 2 mountain lions in the back country and 2 bears. The bears were beautiful locals who just wanted a snack and left, kind of like big dogs, but the lion encounters are of a very different nature. I don't worry about bears. But I don't hike in griz country.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#86542 - 02/07/08 08:56 AM Re: Guns? [Re: MattnID]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
Well, while I won't deny the fact that bears can cover some ground fast, they don't immediately start out at full speed. So while a bear can cover 50 feet in a second, they aren't going to be doing that with the first few strides.


By the time you figure out they're coming at you, they will most likely be up to speed. A lot of people seem to have this conception that a bear will be off in the distance sauntering about and then come running at them in full view. From the accounts I've read, most victims didn't even know a bear was nearby until they heard something crash through the brush. Or they just saw a blur of motion. Some didn't even have time to drop to their knees.

By all means, do what you must to protect yourself. But prepare as though there will be little, if any, warning.

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#86543 - 02/07/08 09:20 AM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Paddy I agree with your post, as that is how most folks get into a bad bear situation. They are either not being observant of their surroundings; or they are in an area where bears are feeding in deep brush.

I prefer to avoid encounters with predator critters when possible. If not, depending upon the region I am in, and the prevailing laws, I will be carrying sufficent protection for the area. The different species require different loads, hence you need to be regionally specific to the threat.

I can hold my own with most 2 leggers, and figure the spray is for the backcountry methheads; the bears I'll leave be <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#86544 - 02/07/08 12:02 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Good point Paddy.
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#86545 - 02/07/08 12:47 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Quote:

By the time you figure out they're coming at you, they will most likely be up to speed. A lot of people seem to have this conception that a bear will be off in the distance sauntering about and then come running at them in full view. From the accounts I've read, most victims didn't even know a bear was nearby until they heard something crash through the brush. Or they just saw a blur of motion. Some didn't even have time to drop to their knees.

By all means, do what you must to protect yourself. But prepare as though there will be little, if any, warning.


Point taken. But if you don't see a bear coming, then it doesn't matter if you have a weapon or not. Chances are, if the bear hits you you're going to be in a position where getting to your weapon may not come soon enough or even be possible. So, if a bear is running at me already at full speed and I don't see it coming or see it soon enough, my weapon is useless because you're going to be caught off guard and possibly disoriented trying to figure out which way is up and what is going on. I agree though, be prepared as possible.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#86546 - 02/07/08 05:12 PM let's try a native's perspective [Re: wvheaven85]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
Part of what shaped my attitude about bears was the native folklore I heard when I was young: Were there stories of brave men hunting bears together, with nothing but the simple bows & spears they had at the time? Yes; bears were well respected, and a successful hunt brought prestige. Were there stories of bears stalking or mauling people, or at least being a little terrorizing? Not that I remember. I do remember a story or two about them reacting in annoyance to people who provoke them.

I think bears usually go about their daily business without much thought about humans. Unless we scare them, provoke them, or unwittingly tempt them with our enticingly sweet & salty foods, we have little to worry about from bears. That said, I like to give them plenty of warning that humans are in the area, I keep my food stashed well, and I pack some heat when I'm in the outdoors. I like to go about my daily business without much thought about bears, but I do it responsibly.

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#86547 - 02/07/08 05:23 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Wolfeye Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 413
Loc: Seattle, WA
I agree that it's unrealistic to think one can get off a few shots. I've heard that if you have a person with a gun in their holster vs. a person with a knife, the knife wielder can win if they start their lunge within 21'. I don't doubt that 50' still isn't a safe distance when it comes to bears. It's very sobering. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I've noticed that most hikers don't really pay much attention to their surroundings when they're on the move; it seems like most like to stare at where they're putting their feet and poles. Personally, I like to keep my head looking around at the surroundings, but I do it mostly to stay oriented & to enjoy the scenery, not neccessarily because I'm on the lookout for things that might eat me.

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#86548 - 02/07/08 06:57 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Wolfeye]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Wolfeye,
I hope people listen to you. You are one of our few knowledgable "natives" and I have a great deal of respect for your "upbringing". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

["Somehow I just am not a victim type and any human or animal assailants choose other targets.']

about being non-observant, yes people hike looking down at their feet. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />People cross country ski looking down at their feet. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />You downhill ski looking ahead. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BUT we were in the Sierras around Memorial day BPing and came out through a big campground where the truck was parked. We had tracked a lioness and 2 cubs who stalked the last bpers who hiked out before us. When we got the top there were HUGE fresh (half hour - 45 minute old) lion tracks as big as my hand (and deeper in the snow than my own boot prints), and they went within 50 feet of a campsite with small children playing. NO ONE SAW the lion or the tracks and NO ONE would believe me that the tracks through the campground were from a mountain lion and people were taking their dogs down the trail with them and couldn't see or admit the difference between the kitty tracks and the dog tracks.
Bears just aren't a problem really. If you don't camp in campgrounds and national parks you may never see one in a life time of camping.

As far as an assailant with a knife - thats a human assailant. An animal has millions of years of DNA telling him to ambush his prey so it doesn't have time to react, like run or shoot. If you even see a mountain lion its a bad thing. If you see a bear it means hes curious, if its not a grizzly throw something at him and try to hit it because a bear coldn't care less about rocks that almost hit.

BEARS ARE AFRAID OF AVOLANCHE/ROCKSLIDE NOISES. I have more success getting a bears attention by throwing a rock down hard on other rocks than by throwing the rock at the bear and missing.

Come on - a bear is just a big dog - maybe a bit smarter and wilder, but he is controlled by a similar attitude. "not get hurt, scare off danger, find food, sex, sniff sniff, sniff sniff somemore, oh gee I didn't see that human I better act big and ferocious so he doesn't hurt me, then I can run away unless he has food, etc etc".

They're still animals with all of the predictable behavior traits of their species and if you accept that you will deal with it better. I have scared off two mountain lions on different occasions. They're schitsy, and just knowing that you know they're there is enough to scare them off. If you sort of "snort" that is a couple of loud sniffs into the air, everycat for half a mile will hear it and lift his nose to the air and wonder if a predator is sniffing him.

The more I play dog with my dog, the more I understand the workings of animals behavior. If you leave your sandwich on the floor the dog will eat it. It gets more complicated than that but thats the basics. If you take food into a bears territory you better be prepared to defend it.

As far as human assailants - as I have stated before - I'd rather not have a gun unless I'm responsible for protecting someone - I take "body guard" really seriously. Somehow I just am not a victim type and any human or animal assailants choose other targets.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#86549 - 02/08/08 07:23 AM Re: bears [Re: wvheaven85]
tinaanderson Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 18
I have seen bears in the woods many times, but they never got too close and I never had any problems with them. They generally don't pay attention to humans all that much from what I have experienced.
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#86550 - 02/08/08 08:27 AM Re: bears [Re: tinaanderson]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
This is generally true. However, there are situations that a hiker may stumble into that can cause a bear to charge. A carcass being in the vicinity or if you surprise the bear, for example.

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#86551 - 02/08/08 02:29 PM Re: Guns? [Re: Wolfeye]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:

I've noticed that most hikers don't really pay much attention to their surroundings when they're on the move


Yeah, people don't pay attention when they drive their cars. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> The simple act of paying attention to your surroundings would solve a lot of problems, not just in hiking. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#86552 - 02/08/08 02:32 PM Re: let's try a native's perspective [Re: Wolfeye]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Quote:
Were there stories of bears stalking or mauling people, or at least being a little terrorizing? Not that I remember.


Thats cuz they got ea'en. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Dead men tell no tales. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#86553 - 02/10/08 03:53 PM Re: death or death [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Ecrow Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 85
Loc: N. New Mexico
Paddy Crow-- bear charge--- That's why I say in the event of a bear attack, it is a death or death situation. Sometimes you need to kill something at point blank range immediately, or death, no other options. Maybe even from inside a sleeping bag. Usually, black bears just spook away or you just never even see them. Last spring I inadvertantly walked up on a cub in a group of eight hikers, I drew my gun, and we all very quietly retreated without seeing the mother, strange, but true.

Ecrow
_________________________
Ecrow
Live to tell.

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#86554 - 02/10/08 08:41 PM Re: bears - NOT Again! [Re: wvheaven85]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
I've had this same ongoing bear conversation over at HikingForums.net for a month, and some gun hater has been busting my... well... you know... for a several days now. He thinks yelling at the bears is sufficient and pepper spray should be used only in the extreme. Now, don't get me wrong here... I like bears, they make good jerky, their fat will water proof your boots for days with one coating, and there's nothing like a bear rug in front of roaring fire to keep your wife happy....nevertheless, if a bear is about to eat me, I refuse to stand their yelling at him while trying to decide if it's time to spray him with chili pepper spray, instead, I'm going to shoot him in the throat with my .45 Auto GLOCK or my Colt 44 magnum, which ever I'm carrying at the time.

I mentioned that yelling at a bear dos NOT always work to scare them away, and that we would be foolish to depend on the yelling thing only. I needed some examples of situations where people yelled and screamed and yelled some more, but it didn't help...

So, I posted the following info and made some of the more sensitive members at HikingWeenies.net upset. Brum

Victim's name, age, gender Date Species of bear Location, comments

Don Peters, 51, male November 25, 2007 Brown Mountain Aire Lodge west of Sundre, about 90 km northwest of Calgary. The 51-year-old did not return from a hunting trip in Western Alberta. He was killed by a grizzly near his vehicle after going hunting alone. His body was found three days later. His rifle was found nearby. It had been fired but there was nothing to indicate the bear had been hit. Officials were trying to trap the bear but would not say whether it would be destroyed if captured. Upon capture, the bear may be shot, moved to another area or let go, depending on an evaluation of the bear; said Alberta resources spokesman Dave Ealey. [1]

Robin Kochorek, 31, female July 20, 2007 Black The 31-year-old woman was reported missing on July 20th after being separated from friends while mountain biking at Panorama Mountain Resort, British Columbia. She was killed by a black bear who was right where the body was recovered at 8 a.m. July 21st. Indications were that the bear had preyed upon this person or obviously was trying to claim ownership. The bear was shot on site by RCMP.[2]

Samuel Evan Ives, 11, male June 17, 2007 Black Taken from a tent in American Fork Canyon in the Uinta National Forest in Utah County, Utah where he was sleeping with his stepfather, mother and 6-year-old brother. The bear was later destroyed by state Wildlife officials.[3]

Jean-Francois Pagé, 28, male April 28, 2006 Brown Fatally mauled while staking mineral claims near Ross River, Yukon, Canada. He unknowingly walked right past a bear den containing a sow and 2 cubs. [4]

Elora Petrasek, 6, female April 13, 2006 Black She was killed and her mother and 2 year-old brother seriously injured in an attack in the Cherokee National Forest in Tennessee.[5]

Arthur Louie, 60, male September 20, 2005 Brown Killed by a female and two cubs while he was walking back to his mining camp after his truck had a flat tire at Bowron River, British Columbia.[6]

Jacqueline Perry, 30, female September 6, 2005 Black Killed in a predatory attack at the Missinaibi Lake Provincial Park, north of Chapleau, Ontario, Canada. Her husband was seriously injured trying to protect her. Ministry staff shot and killed the bear at approximately 8:00 a.m. Saturday, September 10, 2005, near the area where the fatal attack occurred in a remote area of the park. [7][8] The bear involved had already attempted to attack two fisherman an hour before this attack occurred

Harvey Robinson, 69, male August 26, 2005 Black Fatally mauled while picking plums at Selkirk, north of Winnipeg, Manitoba.

Rich Huffman, 61, male; Kathy Huffman, 58, female June 23, 2005 Brown Killed in their tent at a campsite along the Hulahula river 12 miles upriver from Kaktovik in Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge.

Isabelle Dube, 35, female June 5, 2005 Brown Killed while jogging with 2 friends on the Bench Trail in Canmore, Alberta

Merlyn Carter, 71, male 2005 Black Found dead in the main cabin of his fishing camp located 300 km Northeast of Ft. Smith, Northwest Territories, Canada.

Timothy Treadwell, 46, male ; Amie Huguenard, 37, female October 2003 Brown Found by their pilot, dead and most of their bodies consumed at Kaflia Bay, Katmai National Park, Alaska on October 6, 2003. Treadwell was world-famous for his books and documentaries on living with wild bears in Alaska. State Troopers investigating the incident recovered an audiotape of the attack. Only a few days before, Treadwell filmed himself with the bear that killed him in the background, while commenting that it was a bear just like this one — older, struggling to bulk up for the winter — that posed the most threat to humans. The two were killed on the last night before their scheduled pickup, after spending several months in the Alaskan bush. [9]


Forestry worker April 17, 2003 Black Stalked, killed and partially consumed by a large, black bear near Waswanipi, a village in northern Quebec.

Christopher Bayduza September 2002 Black Attacked and killed at a remote oil rigging site in northeastern British Columbia.

Maurice Malenfant September 2002 Black Attacked and killed in his campsite in Gaspé region of Quebec.

Ester Schwimmer, 5 months, female August 2002 Black Bear grabs and kills 5 month old infant from stroller on the porch of home in Fallsburg, New York.

Timothy Hilston, 50, male October 30, 2001 Brown Bear attacked and killed an elk hunter as he was gutting an elk in Western Montana. [10]

Adelia Maestras Trujillo, 93, female August 2001 Black Bear breaks into a house in New Mexico and is confronted by the elderly owner who dies during the attack.

Kyle Harry, 18, male June 3, 2001 Black Attacked and killed at a rural campsite 25 km. east of Yellowknife in the Northwest Territories, Canada.

George Tullos, 41, male July 14, 2000 Brown His partially consumed body was found at Run Amuk campground in Hyder, Alaska.

Mary-Beth Miller, 24, female July 2000 Black Attacked and killed while on a training run in Quebec, Canada.

Glena Ann Bradley, female May 2000 Black Killed and partially consumed by a 112 pound female and her 40 pound yearling. The attack occurred near the Goshen Prong/Little River trail junction 1.5 miles upstream from Elkmont, Great Smoky Mountains near Gatlinburg, Tennessee

1990s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Ned Rasmussen, male November 1999 Brown Found dead 2 days after he disappeared on a deer hunting trip on Uganik Island, Alaska.

Ken Cates, 53, male May 25, 1999 Brown Killed while hiking on the Funny River Trail near Soldotna, Alaska. Investigators found bear blood at the scene, and determined that Cates fired two shots with his rifle scoring at least one hit. The bear was never found.

Craig Dahl, 26, male May 17, 1998 Brown Last seen alive hiking in the Two Medicine area of Glacier National Park. His partially consumed remains were found three days later.

Audelio Luis Cortes, 40, male February 8, 1998 Brown Killed by a single head bite while working with a seismic crew in the Swanson River oil field near Kenai, Alaska

Patti McConnell, 37, female August 17, 1997 Black Died from injuries while defending herself from attack near Liard River Hotsprings, British Columbia

Raymond Kitchen, 56, male August 17, 1997 Black Died from injuries while attempting to rescue McConnell. McConnell's 13 year old son and an unidentified 20 year Calgary Alberta man were also injured in the attack Liard River Hotsprings, British Columbia

Christine Courtney, 32, female July 5, 1996 Brown Killed while hiking in Kluane National Park, Yukon. Her husband was also attacked but survived.

Sevend "Sven" Satre, 53, male June 1996 Black Killed while checking fencelines at his rural ranch in British Columbia

Shane Fumerton, Bill Caspell October 9, 1995 Brown Killed by bears claiming shot elk near Radium Hot Springs, British Columbia

Marcie Trent, 77, female; and her son, Larry Waldron, 45 July 1, 1995 Brown Killed by a bear defending a moose carcass on the McHugh Creek Trail near Anchorage, Alaska.

Colin McClelland, 24, male August 10, 1993 Black Killed as a result of a crushed skull after a 240 pound male Black bear tore open the door to his trailer and attacked at WAGH Mountain, Colorado. The bear was later destroyed by game wardens.

John Petranyi, male October 3, 1992 Brown Attacked and killed by a female with 2 cubs on the Loop Trail, Upper McDonald Valley, Glacier National Park. The attack occurred less than 200 yards from the campground area where Julie Helgeson was dragged from her sleeping bag and killed in August 1967.

Darcy Staver, female July 8, 1992 Black Darcy was killed by her husband, he then left her to be partially consumed by a small Black Bear to cover up the murder. He is now serving a life sentence for first degree murder. His cover-up story was that Darcy was killed by a small black bear after retreating to the roof of her cabin to escape the bear's break-in to their cabin west of Glennallen, Alaska

Sebastien Lauzier, male June 14, 1992 Black Attacked and killed on field assignment near Cochrane, Ontario.

Raymond Jakubauskas, 32, and Carola Frehe, 48 October 11, 1991 Black Bates Island, Opeongo Lake, Algonquin Provincial Park, Ontario, Canada

Male camper May 26, 1991 Unknown Marten River Campground, Lesser Slave Lake, Alberta, Canada

1980s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments
Gary Goeden, male found September 1, 1987; missing since July 28, 1987 Brown His partially consumed remains were found at Natahki Lake, Many Glacier Valley, Glacier National Park.

Charles Gibbs, 40, male April 25, 1987 Brown He was last seen alive following and photographing a female with cubs at Elk Mountain in Glacier National Park. Investigators recovered film of the female approaching in attack mode at 50 yards.

William Tesinsky, photographer October 1986 Brown Approached an adult female too closely in the Otter Creek area of Hayden Valley, Yellowstone National Park.
Brigitta Fredenhagen July 1984 Brown Dragged from a tent during the night and killed at a backcountry campsite at the southern end of White Lake in Yellowstone National Park.[11]

Roger May June 1983 Brown Dragged from a tent during the night and killed at the Rainbow Point campground in the Gallatin National Forest just Northwest of Yellowstone National Park.

Laurence Gordon, male September 30, 1980 Brown Attacked and killed at the Elizabeth Lake campsite in the Belly River valley, Glacier National Park.

Male and Female August 17, 1980 Unknown Killed near Zama, Alberta, Canada

Jane Ammerman, female; Kim Eberly, male July 24, 1980 Brown Attacked and killed during the night at an illegal campsite at Divide Creek in the St. Mary valley, Glacier National Park.

Unknown July 18, 1980 Unknown Killed at Leo Creek, British Columbia, Canada

1970s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Unknown, male June 19, 1978 Black Porcupine Mountains State Park, Michigan

George Halfkenny, Mark Halfkenny, Billy Rhindress May 13, 1978 Black Stalked and killed while fishing near Radiant Lake, Algonquin Provincial Park, Ontario, Canada

Mary Pat Mahoney, 22, female September 23, 1976 Brown She was dragged from a tent and killed at Many Glacier campground in Glacier National Park.

Alan Precup, male August, 1976 Brown He disappeared while backpacking in the Alaskan wilderness. Days later, searchers found his campsite with his bare skeleton, one intact hand, and both feet, still booted.

Harry Walker June 1972 Brown Killed by a bear that was feeding on food that was left out at illegal campsite near Old Faithful Inn, Yellowstone National Park.

John Richardson, 31, male 1971 Black Killed while camping at West side of Rocky Mountain National Park.

1960s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Male October 1, 1968 Black Killed near Atikokan, Ontario, Canada.

Julie Helgeson, 19, female August 13, 1967 Brown Killed at Granite Park campsite in Glacier National Park by a female bear. Attack occurred during the night; bear dragged the victim off while still in her sleeping bag. Attack site was less than 200 yards from where John Petranyi was attacked and killed on the loop trail in 1992. Helgeson's companion, Roy Ducat, was severely mauled during the attack.

Michelle Koons, 19, female August 13, 1967 Brown Killed at Trout Lake campsite in Glacier National Park by a female bear. Although Helgeson and Koons were the same age and killed on the same night, these were separate attacks by different bears approximately 10 miles apart.[12]

1940s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Unknown August 1942 Species undetermined Killed at Old Faithful campground in Yellowstone National Park.

1910s
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Unknown male 1916 Brown Killed at a roadside camp in Yellowstone National Park

1880's
Name, age, gender Date Species Location, Comments

Franklin Devereaux, 52, male 4 Sept 1883 Unknown Killed in Cheboygan County, Michigan; victim was a hunter and trapper. Both Bear and victim were found dead — the bear of a gunshot wound and the hunter from a blow to his head from the bear.

This is the real world of hiking in bear country. Don't be a victim. Arm yourself. Some of these people probably thought.. "it won't happen to me." Or "bear attacks are so rare, I'll just take my chances" , or "I like bears and they have a right to share this world with me. We can all get along living together"

Sorry about the sarcasm, but too many people are intentionally naive just to try to sound tolerant and eco friendly. And they pay for it with there lives. Brum
_________________________



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#86555 - 02/11/08 03:58 AM Re: bears - NOT Again! [Re: Brumfield]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Upstate NY
Not a gun hater here but even in your examples it doesn't appear being armed provided the necessary security for some.

For me, it isn't an issue of whether to bring a gun, pepper spray etc... The most important piece of equipment one can bring in their brain. Knowledge is indispensable to avoid an encounter to begin with and also to "escape" before an encounter escalates.

Someone with pepper spray without taking the proper precautions is likely at greater risk than someone without pepper spray who does have the knowledge to avoid an encounter. Same with a person who arms themselves with the thought that "they can just shoot it". Sometimes equipment makes people susceptible to problems because they think that the equipment can replace using their brain. I think that this increases with the perceived "power" of the equipment. People feel safer so they take more chances. Like I said, the brain is the most important thing, but only if you use it.

Hey Brum, I like your posts. Maybe someday we will meet on the trail. Happy hiking.

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