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#86346 - 01/07/08 04:14 PM All Gore's creations
TomTrout Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 18
Referring not to Al Gore, but to Gore-Tex.

Can someone simply explain the differences between Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex XCR, Gore-Tex PacLite, Gore-Tex Performance, and Gore-Tex Pro?

Also, how do these products compare to eVent?

I think Gore-Tex has been improved and its base product is now "Gore-Tex Performance".

I think Gore-Tex PacLite is Gore-Tex's lightest offering. Not sure how it compares to others in breathability and water repellancy. . .

I think Gore-Tex XCR was Gore-Tex's highest tech offering, and it has now been upgraded with Gore-Tex Pro. Not sure if it is just a name change or if the technology is better.

I suspect there is little real world difference encountered among all these if you took the same jacket using all these different materials, but I am just curious. . .

And how does Gore's Windbloc fit into all this? Would it be another layer added to one of the aforementioned membranes? Has it been supplanted?

Color me confused. . .

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#86347 - 01/07/08 06:07 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
EdK Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 120
Tom...I have some original Gore-Tex stuff from about 10 years ago, an LL Bean Mountain 3 ply jacket. I also have a couple of Marmot's with their take of a Gore-Tex membrane. Recently, I purchased a Gore-Tex Pac Lite jacket, and to be honest with you, the "breathability" of all of these items is questionable at best. The most all-around comfortable, is the oldest....the 3-ply LL Bean Mountain jacket. Ed

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#86348 - 01/07/08 07:47 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Ahhhh, Gore-tex...

We owe a lot to the Gore people for creating the first w/b membrane that has made it possible for us to be slightly more comfortable and safe in the backcountry. As with all technologies however, especially as long as Gore has been on the market, there is bound to be another company come along that figures out how to do it better.

First, the story about Gore-tex (short and sweet version). Gore-tex started out with their First Generation which was the most breathable of all the current Gore-tex membranes. However, it wasn't able to combat oils, dirt, and other contaminates which would cause it to leak (yes, Gore-tex can leak). The reason why it is possible for it to leak is that most of the membrane is space, 80% to be exact. It is true that by taking a square inch of Gore membrane you get 9 billion pores that are smaller than a water droplet, but larger than a water vapor. However, the size of the pores aren't what keep the water out or results in a material that's durably waterproof (waterproof that can withstand pressure). This is accomplished by it's surface energy. Without this surface energy (weak bonds of the water molecules), water would find a way to seep through the pores no matter how small and no matter what state they were in. Again oils, dirt, and other contaminates broke down this surface energy.

Gore-tex then upgraded the membrane to the second-generation. This was the same as the first (ePTFE or expanded Teflon), but with an added layer, PU (polyurethane). This PU layer combated the contamination breakdown allowing the membrane to maintain it's surface energy no matter how dirty the membrane got. Thus it solved the "leak" problem. However, it created another. PU is a hydrophilic (water-loving), monolithic (solid) membrane. In order for the water to pass, it has to 'diffuse' (going from a lesser concentration to a greater) through the solid PU membrane which can easily become overwhelmed. At this time, Gore-tex still remained the most 'breathable' when compared to other membranes and coatings because the PU membrane was so thin. Gore was able to attach a very thin PU membrane to the ultra-smooth ePTFE membrane unlike other PU membranes like Marmot's Precip or The Mountain Hardware's Conduit which had to be much thicker due to the lumpiness of the nylon or polyester in which it covered and had to adhere to. So even though PU was the culprit for creating less breathability for the 2nd gen Gore, it was still more breathable than any other PU membrane available (at that time there was only one ePTFE/PU membrane, Gore-tex; all the others were PU). Second Generation Gore-tex includes Goretex Classic, XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and the new ProShell (these all include a thin PU membrane). It's true that XCR and Paclite is slightly more breathable than Classic, but not by much. ProShell is identical to XCR except for the tricot protective 3rd layer. Instead of using tricot, ProShell uses a durable protein layer that protects the vulnerable Gore-tex membrane from abrasion but allows it to be lighter and more packable. Packlite, again identical to XCR, does this as well, but isn't as durable as ProShell. It's all pretty confusing. The thing to remember is that XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and ProShell all have the same breathability.

eVent (created by BHA Technologies in Kansas City, MO, a division of GE Corp), on the other hand, is the only other ePTFE available and the only one that doesn't use PU. What makes it unique is that it uses a patented super-critical gas treatment to encapsulate the ePTFE membrane with a polymer that is hydropholic (water-hating) and oleophobic (oil-hating). This polymer does the same thing that the PU membrane does for Gore-tex (that is maintain the surface energy), except for the fact that it doesn't inhibit it's breathability. Thus eVent is 30% (high humidity levels) to 200% (low humidity levels) more breathable than Gore-tex! This goes beyond it being significant; it is a staggering difference. One other thing to keep in mind with Gore-tex when comparing it to eVent is that Gore-tex works best at high humidity levels. What this means is that in order for Gore-tex to work optimally, there needs to be 100% humidity inside the jacket. This obviously is not good because that means you're, at the very least, clammy (we've all experienced this with a Gore hardshell) and at the worst, wet! Remember the PU is hydrophilic (water-loving). The PU absorbs the humidity and transfers it to the outside. Gore-tex believes this is good because it works best when you sweat (it really isn't that good). However at low-humidity levels, Gore-tex is almost worthless because it can't transfer moisture due to the solid PU membrane. eVent, on the other hand, works best at low-humidity levels (when you need it most) because it allows the early water vapor to escape, not allowing the jacket to get to the high-humidity levels that Gore works 'well' in. Thus you don't fell clammy. It's interesting to note that even though Gore's best results are at high humidity, eVent still out-performs it by 30% at these levels (this is according to non-biased Army lab tests)!

As you can probably guess, I'm not the biggest fan of Gore, although I own several pieces. Gore did a great job in selling me into it. Now that eVent is available, and since I've been using it, I've noticed a HUGE difference beyond lab results and marketing. The stuff is incredible and has given me the desire to wear my hard shells again. eVent is really the future of w/b material and if you are planning on spending your hard-earned cash on a $400+ shell, you would be nuts to buy Gore. I learned this through several training sessions and my own research after picking up the new outerwear line Westcomb (the best eVent stuff available) who uses eVent exclusively. It has been an eye-opener to say the least.

Gore-tex is still the king of the hill and has a huge marketing budget. Because of this, and other financial reasons, you most likely won't see companies like Mountain Hardware, Arc Teryx, Patagonia, Marmot, The North Face, etc. using eVent. In fact, Gore-tex has told these guys that they will no longer be allowed to use their membrane if they use any eVent. Nike, who doesn't need the marketing dollars, has dropped Gore completely. You might see others following suit once the word gets out. As of today, Westcomb is the only high-end manufacturer, made in North American company who uses eVent. We are also the only direct competitor to Arc Teryx based on quality and similar specs. It is really nice stuff and the fit is amazing!
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#86349 - 01/07/08 08:28 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Quote:
The thing to remember is that XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and ProShell all have the same breathability.

eVent (created by BHA Technologies in Kansas City, MO, a division of GE Corp), on the other hand, is the only other ePTFE available and the only one that doesn't use PU.


Jason -- Great writeup! The first part is consistent with my understanding that despite all the different names and successively louder hype -- the Goretex laminate is basically little changed over the years.

As for ePTFE that doesn't use PU, MontBell's Breeze Dry Tec laminate shares that characteristic with eVENT -- although the two are not identical.

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#86350 - 01/07/08 08:44 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
As for ePTFE that doesn't use PU, MontBell's Breeze Dry Tec laminate shares that characteristic with eVENT -- although the two are not identical.
I haven't heard much about Montbell's Breeze Dry. Is it an ePTFE membrane? I checked out Mont Bell's website but couldn't see what it was made of. It looks like it is a microporous membrane with similar characteristics as eVent as you mentioned, but little more is said about it. Do you have any more info on it? Have you used it? Thanks in advance. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#86351 - 01/07/08 09:37 PM MontBell's Waterproof But Air Permeable Laminate [Re: jasonlivy]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Hi Jason:

You may already have read this blip, but just in case not, click here for MontBell's description. And yes, it is an ePTFE membrane as well. I got that in separate email exchanges with MontBell.

I've been using MontBell's Peak Shell jacket for almost three years now, and have been very happy with it. Back when I was shopping for my wp/b jacket, I wanted both high breathability and venting options -- and that basically narrowed down to two: eVENT vs. MontBell.

I believe that eVENT is the more breathable of the two, although the difference is probably very slight, given that both laminates are air permeable. Unfortunately, the eVENT jackets at that time had no venting options aside from the front zip itself. The Peak Shell jacket, on the other hand, came fully featured with extra long pit zips, hand pockets, adjustable hood, etc. and weighed just 11 ounces.

I've worn the Peak Shell snowshoeing uphill for two hours in the high 30's -- and all throughout, I was complety dry and comfortable -- and never needed to unzip even the front zip at all, never mind the pit zips. Afterwards, I took off the jacket and checked my baselayer just to be sure -- and yup, it really was totally dry, as was the inside of the jacket itself. Still, I like the fact that the jacket comes with different zips for venting -- for use in warmer or more humid occasions.

Separately, I once read a post from a hiker who owned both ID eVENT and MontBell Peak Shell. He wrote that all zipped up, the ID was more breathable, but with pit zips, the MontBell was the more comfy and versatile of the two.

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#86352 - 01/08/08 12:20 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:

Second Generation Gore-tex includes Goretex Classic, XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and the new ProShell (these all include a thin PU membrane).

At least for Windstopper, Im not sure this is the case. Put a windstopper laminate under a bubbler tester, and you will see that air bubbles right through it, at a comparable level as eVENT. And even Gore admits on its own Windstoppr site that it passes some air.

Quote:

I ProShell is identical to XCR except for the tricot protective 3rd layer. Instead of using tricot, ProShell uses a durable protein layer that protects the vulnerable Gore-tex membrane from abrasion but allows it to be lighter and more packable. Packlite, again identical to XCR, does this as well, but isn't as durable as ProShell.

I don't think Pro Shell uses a protein. Instead of a tricot knit lining, generaly made from 40 denier yarns, it uses a woven liner made from 15 denier yarns. It makes the lining lighter and more durable. Paclite does away with a lining by adding carbon to the PU-layer. Nice in theory bu it's very condensation prone. The membrane in itself appears to be same although the PU-layer appears to be thinner from the appearance from XCR. Possibly, and surprisingly, there's a good possibilty that the pores from the Gore membranes are also covered with a hydrophobic and oleophobic coating just like eVENT. Why they would use both this coating and the PU-layer is unclear to me.

Quote:

The thing to remember is that XCR, Paclite, Windstopper, and ProShell all have the same breathability.

Not exactly. As explained windstopper is slightly air permeable and should perform like eVENT. But what can make a big difference is the combination of the membrane with face fabrics and scrims. These have an influence on breathability too.

Quote:

eVent, on the other hand, works best at low-humidity levels (when you need it most) because it allows the early water vapor to escape, not allowing the jacket to get to the high-humidity levels that Gore works 'well' in.

More exactly, since eVENT functions independently of the humidity gradient, it works equally well at low and high humidity levels.

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#86353 - 01/08/08 01:16 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
Quote:
As of today, Westcomb is the only high-end manufacturer, made in North American company who uses eVent. We are also the only direct competitor to Arc Teryx based on quality and similar specs. It is really nice stuff and the fit is amazing!


Right there, you give the impression that you work for Westcomb, by saying "we." How about Integral Designs?

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#86354 - 01/08/08 01:17 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Aviprk]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
Quote:
Quote:
As of today, Westcomb is the only high-end manufacturer, made in North American company who uses eVent. We are also the only direct competitor to Arc Teryx based on quality and similar specs. It is really nice stuff and the fit is amazing!


Right there, you give the impression that you work for Westcomb, by saying "we." How about Integral Designs? Did you omit it because they only make rain jackets?

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#86355 - 01/08/08 02:08 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Aviprk]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Aviprk:

I am not Jason, but having read his posts, Jason is very honest and upfront about whom he works for -- and just as importantly, he is pretty careful to distinguish between speaking as a company rep versus a regular gear freak (like the rest of us).

If you click on Jason's handle, you will see the following under his occupation:

"Traveling Outdoor Industry Sales Rep (Cascade Designs, Princeton Tec, Granite Gear, ACR, ProBar, Westcomb Outerwear)"

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#86356 - 01/08/08 02:28 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I don't think Pro Shell uses a protein. Instead of a tricot knit lining, generaly made from 40 denier yarns, it uses a woven liner made from 15 denier yarns. It makes the lining lighter and more durable.
Your right in regards to the woven, rather than knit, 3rd liner of the ProShell. Thanks for the clarification. This liner does seem to be an advantage over the current tricot that's being used currently. However, the Gore membrane is the exact same as the XCR which means the breathability, when comparing just the membrane, is the same. This info I obtained from Alan DIxon of backpackinglight.com. Alan is considered one of the most respected authorities on w/b performance fabric in the outdoor industry and is not affiliated with any company.
Quote:
At least for Windstopper, Im not sure this is the case. Put a windstopper laminate under a bubbler tester, and you will see that air bubbles right through it, at a comparable level as eVENT. And even Gore admits on its own Windstoppr site that it passes some air.
To be totally honest, I guessed on Windstopper hoping that someone would clarify it for me, so thanks <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I assumed that all of the membranes Gore makes use a PU layer to which I acknowledge my mistake. I tried to do some research on Windstopper and couldn't find anything specifically on how it works. I did surmise that it probably doesn't include the PU membrane, but instead is meant not to be durably waterproof like the other Gore membranes, but maintain it's windproofness even if it is contaminated. Gore's website did say that it uses a hydrophobic 'coating' to keep external moisture from seeping through. However, once this membrane become contaminated with dirt and oil it will leak, thus it is considered only a water resistant and windproof membrane. You are right in saying that Windstopper most likely has the same breathability as the 1st generation Gore or similar to eVent. Windstopper should be in another category of laminates, not in the waterproof/breathable discussion. Thanks for the correction. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Quote:
Possibly, and surprisingly, there's a good possibilty that the pores from the Gore membranes are also covered with a hydrophobic and oleophobic coating just like eVENT. Why they would use both this coating and the PU-layer is unclear to me.
Though you would think that with as much time as Gore has had in figuring out how to get rid of the PU component from it's membrane, it hasn't. The fact is that it still uses it to fight the contamination issue. Until they figure out how to maintain the surface energy of the membrane without using PU, it will never be as breathable as eVent no matter what kind of marketing spin Gore uses.

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#86357 - 01/08/08 02:39 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Aviprk]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Right there, you give the impression that you work for Westcomb, by saying "we." How about Integral Designs
I do work as a Westcomb rep in the Rocky Mountains (I mentioned this in my post). Integral Designs was one of the first companies to use eVent and I failed to remember they made jackets to which I apologize. You are exactly right, Integral Designs, another North American company also uses eVent. Actually before I started with my current rep agency, we represented Integral. Evan Jones is an acquaintance of mine and a visionary thinker. I have much respect for him. I was saddened when, because of outdated fire-retardency laws, was required to stop using eVent in his tents. This is the perfect material for this application.

Westcomb specializes in outerwear and that's all. They started two years ago in Vancouver, Canada and have made some significant strides since then. Our agency picked them up this year and are very excited to see it take off. Most of the companies currently using eVent are from Europe.

I appreciate the clarifications on my post. I want people to get the most accurate info and I would never claim to have all the facts. This is what's so great about forums such as this. I would welcome any other corrections that I may have misrepresented.
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#86358 - 01/08/08 02:47 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Thanks Ben. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#86359 - 01/08/08 02:48 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:
However, the Gore membrane is the exact same as the XCR which means the breathability, when comparing just the membrane, is the same.

Exactly my idea. I do not contest this.

Quote:
This info I obtained from Alan DIxon of backpackinglight.com. Alan is considered one of the most respected authorities on w/b performance fabric in the outdoor industry and is not affiliated with any company.

Alan Dixon's article about waterproof/breathables was one of the primaryn reasons for me to take a subscription on BPL

Quote:
I did some research on Windstopper and couldn't find anything specifically on how it works. I did surmise that it probably doesn't include the PU membrane, but instead is meant not to be durably waterproof like the other Gore membranes, but maintain it's windproofness even if it is contaminated. Gore's website did say that it uses a hydrophobic 'coating' to keep external moisture from seeping through. However, once this membrane become contaminated with dirt and oil it will leak, thus it is considered only a water resistant and windproof membrane. You are right in saying that Windstopper most likely has the same breathability as the 1st generation Gore or similar to eVent. Windstopper should be in another category of laminates, not in the waterproof/breathable discussion. Thanks for the correction. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I suspect that the hydrophobic coating refers just to the hydrophobic properties of the PTFE membrane and not a specific coating.

Quote:
Though you would think that with as much time as Gore has had in figuring out how to get rid of the PU component from it's membrane, it hasn't. The fact is that it still uses it to fight the contamination issue. Until they figure out how to maintain the surface energy of the membrane without using PU, it will never be as breathable as eVent no matter what kind of marketing spin Gore uses.

I know they still use the PU-layer. But the strange thing is that already as early as 1994, Gore did figure out how to coat the inner structure of the PTFE layer. That's much earlier than BHA with eVENT. For some reason they've never taken the step to bring a product to the market that relies completely on this coating. Even more interestingly, I 've read several documents which seem to describe things like the XCR membrane, paclite, GTX soft shell, stretch gore-tex and even pro shell in which this inner coating was added to the PTFE layer, making the PTFE layer itself also oleophobic. But for some reason, always a PU coating was added on top of the PTFE layer. I still don't understand why they would use both the inner coating and the PU-coating unless they're afraid of durability issues (the argument they use against eVENT)

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#86360 - 01/08/08 03:18 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Woubeir]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I still don't understand why they would use both the inner coating and the PU-coating unless they're afraid of durability issues (the argument they use against eVENT)
You are probably right in saying this. I've heard that as well.

I know one of the benefits of having a PU component is in the lamination and taping processes. Because PU adheres so well to the adhesive, Gore most likely thinks that the sacrifice in breathability is made up for in its durability. We discussed this at length at our Westcomb sales meeting.

The explanation I got from the material engineers is that instead of relying on the PU layer for lamination (which makes building a Goretex jacket much easier), Westcomb actually forces the glue through the pores of the membrane (again 80% of the ePTFE membrane is air) at a much higher pressure than is needed for Goretex allowing for the tape to adhere to the face material. This requires the person applying the tape to go much slower and be much more precise. This might also mean why there are fewer companies willing to use eVent. By taping the jackets this way, although it takes much more time to produce, they have found that the seams are just as strong and the tape to be as permanently bonded and wear-resistant as Gore taped seams. Westcomb has also not seen any delamination issues throughout their extensive lab and field testing.

One thing Westcomb has tried to do is narrow their seam tape, but they can only go so far. The narrowest they have been able to use without compromising durability is 11mm. Arcteryx uses 9mm because of the Goretex's PU membrane. This does give credence to the fact that the PU membrane does allow for a better surface adhesion.

Here's an interesting article which explains the new process eVent is using in its application of the hydrophobic, oleophobic polymer. This will actually increase the breathability and performance of the membrane. Innovation is good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#86361 - 01/08/08 03:33 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Jason:

You are welcome. Given your expertise and experience -- methinks it would be enlightening for all concerned if you can do a real life "user test" comparing and contrasting amongst Goretex, eVENT, and MontBell shells. How about it?

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#86362 - 01/08/08 03:38 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
Woubeir Offline
member

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 22
Quote:

I know one of the benefits of having a PU component is in the lamination and taping processes. Because PU adheres so well to the adhesive, Gore most likely thinks that the sacrifice in breathability is made up for in its durability. We discussed this at length at our Westcomb sales meeting. The explanation I got from the material engineers is that instead of relying on the PU layer for lamination (which makes building a Goretex jacket much easier), Westcomb actually forces the glue through the pores of the membrane (again 80% of the ePTFE membrane is air) at a much higher pressure than is needed for Goretex allowing for the tape to adhere to the face material.

This indeed sounds very logic to me. In fact, I think it's the same way Gore solved delamination problems they had by forcing the PU layer partly inside the PTFE-layer

The supercritical gas based production method is indeed a very cool thing (literaly <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). Perhaps the coolest feature is what I would call the self-healing property it adds to the membrane.

I've taken a look to Westcomb but currently the main problem is it's very hard to get any detailed information abou them. Their products are hard to find. I received their 08 catalog but it doesn't explain enough what makes them so different. Now, if they would add pit zips to their lighter jackets, that would be something.

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#86363 - 01/08/08 03:57 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Ben2World]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
You are welcome. Given your expertise and experience -- methinks it would be enlightening for all concerned if you can do a real life "user test" comparing and contrasting amongst Goretex, eVENT, and MontBell shells. How about it?
I do have a "hookup" with Mont Bell. I'm also planning on going to Ecuador this summer for a mountaineering expedition to climb Cotopaxi. I already own several Gore and eVent jackets so I'm 3/4 the way there. I would be very interested to feel the difference between eVent and MontBell's Breeze Dry (and owning another jacket is always a good thing). Bring it on! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
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#86364 - 01/08/08 05:09 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: jasonlivy]
TomTrout Offline
member

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 18
I'm interested in a real world comparison. How does an eVent product compare to the latest and greatest from Gore? Assume rainy weather, and hiking with a pack. Can you actually feel a breathability difference?

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#86365 - 01/08/08 05:28 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
Carter Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 355
Loc: Missoula, MT
One of the best ways that I've heard of for testing competing shell materials is to divide the material laterally down the middle--with one side Gore (for example) and the other eVent. I read that Patagonia did this once, and perhaps they still do. Of course, this would require considerable expertise in garment construction, but you would really be able to test the effectiveness of each material in a real world application.

I have several garments made with eVent (plus many more in all manners of Gore, H2No, Precip, etc.). So far, I think that eVent is excellent, but there are some limitations. First it is surprisingly not 100 percent windproof. Maybe that's OK for most people, but I want something windproof when skiing downhill at 30 mph at 0 degree F.

Second, I've found that the scrim on all the eVent stuff I have is much more prone to abrasion (from Velcro and other rough stuff) than the tricot used on garments made from Gore and H2No. Others have commented that the scrim can conceiveably be made from tougher material, but I haven't seen it yet.

Third, I haven't seen the eVent stuff from RAB in person, but all the rest of the jackets and pants in eVent are underwhelming (to me) in the fit and features department.

As for the breathability of eVent vs. Gore PacLite, my experience is rather similar to that of the Outdoors Magic test done some time ago--there isn't much practical difference:

Outdoors Magic

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#86366 - 01/08/08 05:46 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee


All these fabrics are different fabric...all with the "Gore-Tex" material in them for a water proof or resistant property..Hopes that helps...sabre11004....


The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there....
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#86367 - 01/08/08 05:49 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: TomTrout]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
See my PM.
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#86368 - 01/08/08 05:53 PM Re: All Gore's creations/windstop [Re: Woubeir]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee


I may be wrong but I think that"windstop" is a "PolarTec" trademark fabric..sabre11004....



The first step that you take is one of those that will get you there... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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The first step that you take will be one of those that get you there 1!!!!!

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#86369 - 01/08/08 06:23 PM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Carter]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
As for the breathability of eVent vs. Gore PacLite, my experience is rather similar to that of the Outdoors Magic test done some time ago--there isn't much practical difference:
This has not been my experience at all. One example I would give is a trip I made to the Olympics in Washington mountain biking. It was raining a slow drizzle that slowly increased throughout the day. My options were to either get soaked or wear a jacket and get slightly less soaked. I knew that a Gore jacket would leave me drenched (as has been my experience in the past, including PacLite), but I was wearing a Pearl Izumi eVENT and hadn't really pushed it to its limits. I thought this would be the perfect opportunity.

I frankly thought that I would be shedding it a mile down the trail, but this was not the case. I actually wore it the entire 18 miles and was only slightly damp at the end. I was definitely dryer than if I were to have not worn it. Mountain biking is a strenuous activity, far more than simply hiking. This caused me to reflect on how amazing it was that I was only damp. I was impressed to say the least.

Since I am on the road a lot, I tend to do some pretty low key tests as I drive. One of these is wear different w/b shells. If, at the end of my trip, I feel clammy in any way, I make a note of it. Every time I wear a Gore tex jacket, not matter if it's XCR or Paclite, I feel slightly clammy. However, all of the eVENT jackets (including a new Westcomb softshell jacket that uses a stretch woven outer material laminated to an eVENT membrane, which is then laminated to a light-weight Merino Wool layer; only one of its kind), I have never felt clammy. The most important reality is that I simply wear my eVENT shells where I don't my Gore shells anymore.

Quote:
Second, I've found that the scrim on all the eVent stuff I have is much more prone to abrasion (from Velcro and other rough stuff) than the tricot used on garments made from Gore and H2No. Others have commented that the scrim can conceiveably be made from tougher material, but I haven't seen it yet.
I personally haven't seen any difference in the tricot durability between Gore and eVENT. I think it's pretty standard stuff as far as I can see. I'm not discounting your experience, just sharing mine.


Quote:
Third, I haven't seen the eVent stuff from RAB in person, but all the rest of the jackets and pants in eVent are underwhelming (to me) in the fit and features department.
Check out this jacket. It is like no other available incorporating an iPod controller using copper-infused material as the 'wire' to transmit the signal to the iPod. It is cutting edge technology almost relegating the eVENT membrane to the back seat. It is constructed as well as any jacket on the market and is the only true competitor to Arcteryx. I say this and repeat it here only because very few people have even heard of Westcomb. I barely heard about it a few months ago. Since then I have toured the factories in Vancouver and have used several of their jackets in different conditions. It is as good as stuff as I have ever seen (I'm pretty picky) and the fit is the best I have ever worn (size medium). I am working hard to get it into more stores so that it can be seen by the general public. I believe they have ideas beyond eVENT that will revolutionize the outerwear market. They have already won 2 Polartec Apex Awards and ISPO BrandNew Award for 2007. It's a brand to keep your eye on for sure.
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#86370 - 01/09/08 01:07 AM Re: All Gore's creations [Re: Carter]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I have several garments made with eVent (plus many more in all manners of Gore, H2No, Precip, etc.). So far, I think that eVent is excellent, but there are some limitations. First it is surprisingly not 100 percent windproof. Maybe that's OK for most people, but I want something windproof when skiing downhill at 30 mph at 0 degree F.
I'm interested to know why you think it isn't windproof? I'm not discounting your experience, just curious. As most w/b membranes are completely windproof due to the fact that they have to be because of their waterproofness, I'm not sure how eVENT isn't completely windproof as well.

Air permeability, that which gives fleece and softshells a one-up on hardshells in terms of ventilation, is recorded through cfm measurements. The only air permeable w/b membrane that I know of is Schoeller's WB-400 which records 3 cfm (cubic ft per minute), helping it's breathability. This laminate, after it is applied, expands slightly resembling very fine foam. This 'foaming' action gives it it's air permeability. It is only used with 4-way stretch woven, or softshell, materials. All other membranes and laminates are completely windproof, or, in other words, record 0 cfm.
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