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#82338 - 11/04/07 11:40 PM Single wall tents in freezing temperatures?
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I have an Early Winters Light Dimension single wall tent. The material is Gore Tex.

I'm interested in better understanding how my tent will react in freezing temperatures. Will the fabric stop breathing at some temerature point and condensation begin to accumulate on the inner surface. I have not used this tent in anything below about 32F.

This is a fairly spacious tent for one. Perhaps too big for one individual to create, through body heat alone, any tempertaure differential between inside and outside. As this inside and outside temperatures become the same, will the fabric stop breathing.

Any comments would be welcome. I would really like to know the physics involved here and perhaps anticipate any problems with condensation that may occur.

As Always, Thanks in Advance


Edited by Rick (11/05/07 01:14 AM)

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#82339 - 11/05/07 03:30 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Great question Rick, something I've pondered for a few years now with the proliferation of single wall tents.
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#82340 - 11/05/07 03:31 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Rick
I have a Bibler Eldorado single walled "goretex" . Its the driest tent I have ever used. It will breath just fine, but be aware that there will not be enough "breathing" for you to breath - for this there must be venting. I even cook in it - as in melt snow and brew coffee and the steam warms the tent and goes righ on out through the roof vents. Stays dry.

Let me also say that I haveseen a lot of double walled tents in Winter where the outer shell was totally coated with ice (underneath) from water vapor from people inside. If the sun hits the shell it can melt and rain on the inner tent, not so with a goretex tent.

Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#82341 - 11/05/07 04:37 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Jimshaw]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Jim: Interesting that your experience has shown that you must vent the tent. This is what I would anticipate having to do.

This approach does run contrary to the original brochure:

"Please note: If you you should begin to experience any condensation inside the tent, CLOSE the door securely and shut the back vent. While this may run contrary to normal logic, the reason is simple. With the tent shut tight, your body will warm the inner air and create a higher vapour pressure inside the tent than outside. This in turn will force the moisture laden air out through the microporous Gore-Tex membrane. Leave the back vent open only in very hot weather when you want actual air movement throught the the tent.

Once again, in humid conditions, you will find that the tent will be the dryest when the vent and door are CLOSED.
"

Perhaps the manufacturer is referring to temperatures higher than freezing.

Thanks for your input.


Edited by Rick (11/05/07 04:52 PM)

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#82342 - 11/05/07 04:50 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Earthling]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Yes, I have my eye on a BD Oneshot or BD Lighthouse, both made of Epic material. (I'll have to wait for my number to come in though)

I tested my home sewn Epic bivy week before last. It's not seam sealed yet so I was under a tarp. After two nights, temps about 35F, with the last night in the rain, I packed my sleeping bag and bivy in a dry sack. I weighed them when I got home. Absolutely no moisture was retained, so I know Epic breaths - at least under these conditions.

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#82343 - 11/05/07 05:49 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Rick
I didn't want to bring up the thermal thing, but yes it seems that for any particular sized tent, for instance, having more people in it can make it drier because its warmer inside and the warmth seems to drive out the extra moisture - for instance cookin in the tent with my stove. I have a hot cloud of steam in my tent, warm my hands and face in it, yet it seems the heat pushes the moisture right out. I can and have made my tent into a steam bath with the roof vents and front vent open for carbon monoxide safety, and been very warm and dry too? Wierd I know, but there are a lot of "wilderness facts" that fly in the face of "living room planning". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

What I meant by venting is that goretex doesn't pass enough oxygen for you to breath. So by venting you also lower the temp a bit but the worst condensation I've seen in my Bibler was some frost on the metal poles which are inside the tent (in the morning when I awoke). I think this evaporated off. Remeber water can go from solid to gas without passing through liquid, all it needs is dry air to evaporate.

I wrote a post about using my TNF mtn24 expedition dome in the snow. Its a 2 layer tent. I keep things open just a bit, in a way that snow can't blow in but a bit of air can pass through. In the morning Kristin and I were totally dry even where the bags were against the side of the tent and the tent was completely dry everywhere. (AND WERE COMPLETELY BURIED IN SNOW) OTOH I have loaned the tent to two buddies of mine who camped next to my Bibler and in the morning they were "sopping wet", and one guy said "there was a river flowing through it last night. Go figure? I have no idea what they did wrong. Thats another problem, when ya get really good at something its hard to imagine how badly other people can do it and you can't help them.

I know I'm a wierdo nut, but my experience allows me to go places and do things that would litteraly kill inexperienced people. Like most proffesional building trade people say, "Its all in the wrist". My wrist knows how to: paint, plaster, cut wood, etc and I have to learn the correct wrist english to do what they do. How about motorcycles? I've ridden 75 thousand miles a lot of it in the dirt - how do you explain to people how to ride a bike in the dirt? Its like just grabbing a water bottle and a bic and going skiing for the day. I can do it, some can't.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#82344 - 11/05/07 06:13 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
After 15 or so condensation free nights in my BD One Shot, my luck ran out on my last trip. It was also the first night I used this tent in sub freezing temps. I woke up with soaking wet/frosty walls. Had one of the two windows open. Light snowfall during the night. Overnight low was 22 degrees F. I had no way to measure humidity.

I had read that freezing temps will cause ice to form in the pores of W/B fabrics which of course prevents the escape of water vapor. That's probably what happened to me.

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#82345 - 11/05/07 07:49 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Trailrunner]
jshannon Offline
member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 410
Loc: North Texas
But if you have a sleeping bag cover, does that frost on the inside really mean much? It's no different than wet condensation on the inside of a single wall tent. If you can keep it from wetting your bag, no biggie.

Quote:
I woke up with soaking wet/frosty walls. Had one of the two windows open. Light snowfall during the night. Overnight low was 22 degrees F. I had no way to measure humidity.

I had read that freezing temps will cause ice to form in the pores of W/B fabrics which of course prevents the escape of water vapor. That's probably what happened to me.
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#82346 - 11/05/07 08:00 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Trailrunner]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Trailrunner
________________________________________
I had read that freezing temps will cause ice to form in the pores of W/B fabrics which of course prevents the escape of water vapor. That's probably what happened to me.
_______________________________________

where did you read that? I don't think they'd make space suits from goretex if watervapor froze in the pores. It certainly has not been my experience camping at -5F. I'm sure its a lot colder in the himalyas where biblers of toddtex were a standard. There are a lot of urban (wilderness) myths. You need to contact Myth Busters dude...
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#82347 - 11/05/07 08:03 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: jshannon]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Even without a sleeping bag cover it was not a huge issue. Only the foot of my bag was wet. My bandana took care of most of it. After I opened the windows and let the sun shine on the tent for an hour or so it was almost completely dry. I suppose it could be a problem after multiple nights in cloudy weather.

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#82348 - 11/05/07 08:13 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Jimshaw]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
This isn't where I read about it originally but if you were to do a quick Google search you'll see other references. If you scroll halfway down the page you'll see this:

Quote:

"Some will warn you that at temperatures below freezing Gore-Tex can clog up with ice crystals from sweat that your under garments wicked up. True enough. However, when this happens it is no worse than any other non-breathing wind-breaker or shell, and until that point you've gained the advantage of a breathable top layer.

So don't abandon your rain jacket just because it is too cold to rain, you can continue to use it until its just plain too cold. Its usually time to switch jackets from a comfort point of view about the time the Gore-Tex is rendered in-effective by the cold temperatures. For me, this occurs at about 20F.

On the other hand you were sold this magic fabric with the hype that it DID "breath" and would pass moisture even in the cold.
The truth is that moisture venting through the Gore-Tex in really cold weather gets as far as the outer layer and freezes, progressively plugging all of the highly vaunted pores. If you are passing enough heat through your outer layer to prevent this freezing, the jacket may continue to vent as advertised, but in that case you are likely overheating under your other layers, or suffering a heat loss you can ill afford."

End Quote.

I'm not an expert on space suits but I do know that, unlike a tent, they are (1) pressurized and (2) hot enough inside to require their own liquid cooling systems.

Edit: Another reference here. Bottom of page 1.

Even the great Ryan Jordan writes that frost can clog some, but not all, WB fabrics. Here's a quote from that article:

"2) What happens below 15 degrees? Does Epic compare more favorably to other alternatives here?

Not in bivies. We are finding that ice is still clogging interstices in the fabric and reducing breathability."

Still looking for the original article which was tent specific.......

Sorry it's no myth.

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#82349 - 11/05/07 09:46 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Trailrunner]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Trailrunner
Well thanks. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> seriously.

I do not see anything in these quotes that makes me believe that goretex freezes up. I do know that some manufacturers use cheapo fabrics to laminate the goretex to and Marmot goretex garments are very different than cheap goretex garmets.

What I'm saying is that what I read here is someones intuitive response - no science. I've never had a layer of ice on my goretex. How could a layer of ice freeze to goretex? Wouldn't it just pop off of all but the dullest finishes on rough material with no DWR? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I mean I believe mythbusters could make it freeze up, but they would have to physically hold it immobile and subject it to extremes to make it happen. I've never seen it on the outside of a goretex tent even after a major storm.

Has anybody here ever had ice form on the outside of their goretex jacket? I've sat in snow storms buried in snow and still been dry inside my goretex. I'm afraid that my experience with quality goretex garments in all kinds of weather is that they do not fail, they do not freeze up, they do not stop working in ANY weather that I've used them in. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And as far as Ryan Jordan 's opinion... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Lets just say that I have had teams of very experienced PHDs fight over their proffesional specialities only to show them something they never believed could happen. First and second order thought are nice and intuitive but don't prove anything that way. Ryan Jordans opinion is not enough.

And trailrunner please take no offense here. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#82350 - 11/05/07 10:48 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Jimshaw]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
No offense taken Jim.

Quote:

What I'm saying is that what I read here is someones intuitive response - no science.


If the moderators deleted all the posts that were not based on pure science this entire forum would have maybe 2 pages <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quote:
I've never had a layer of ice on my goretex. How could a layer of ice freeze to goretex? Wouldn't it just pop off of all but the dullest finishes on rough material with no DWR?


According to the articles I cited, ice doesn't block certain WB fabrics by forming a layer on the surface. It does it by forming inside the fabric in the pores, or "intersticies". The ice is not on the fabric, it's in the fabric.

Let me be clear that I'm not just talking about Goretex. My original post on the subject was about my Epic tent.

If you want science, no one has done a better job of applying it to lightweight backpacking than Dr. Ryan Jordan. If you're going to summarily dismiss a guy like that there's certainly nothing I can do to change your thinking. Let's just agree to disagree.

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#82351 - 11/05/07 11:36 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Jimshaw]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Yes Jim, I will try this and develope my own technique that works. As a tenderfoot, when I ask a question I understand the answer is not ironclad. There are a mirad of variables that prevent such an answer from being given. Through a combination of venting, earlymorning sun, candle, or simply mopping up., I'm sure I'l manage. Suffice to say I'm not headed for a disaster if I take some common sense precautions.

When one spends several nights in structures that end up looking like this, one learns to adapt.

.

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#82352 - 11/06/07 08:55 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Trailrunner]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:

If the moderators deleted all the posts that were not based on pure science this entire forum would have maybe 2 pages <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


And a whole lot of argument about how X post was scientific or wasn't! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> You think me bringing up all my 'science' is bad... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yet we all manage to hike and enjoy ourselves... and if anyone tried to say hiking or backpacking was evil, we'd all turn as one and tear them apart! (with arguments hopefully)

I think a Mythbusters of the wilderness is a great idea! I'm tempted to grab a camera and assemble ideas, except I have a strong feeling 80% of them would be far beyond my reach and too dangerous for me to test. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Xelif (11/06/07 08:56 AM)
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#82353 - 11/06/07 09:27 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
Yes, I have my eye on a BD Oneshot or BD Lighthouse, both made of Epic material. (I'll have to wait for my number to come in though)

I tested my home sewn Epic bivy week before last. It's not seam sealed yet so I was under a tarp. After two nights, temps about 35F, with the last night in the rain, I packed my sleeping bag and bivy in a dry sack. I weighed them when I got home. Absolutely no moisture was retained, so I know Epic breaths - at least under these conditions.


So something in Epic fabric would seem to be the next generation of single walled tents to look for in a Winter shelter. Depending on the complexity of a particular tent design, one could just use the pole set(of a favorite tent) and sew their own Epic tent to go with them if so inclined/experienced. You get the use of a prexisting aluminum poled tent structure, and utilize your own labor to produce said tent, saving you money, no?

Also, why no pyramid or tepees in Epic yet?
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#82354 - 11/06/07 09:40 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Jimshaw]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
Rick
I didn't want to bring up the thermal thing, but yes it seems that for any particular sized tent, for instance, having more people in it can make it drier because its warmer inside and the warmth seems to drive out the extra moisture - for instance cookin in the tent with my stove. I have a hot cloud of steam in my tent, warm my hands and face in it, yet it seems the heat pushes the moisture right out. I can and have made my tent into a steam bath with the roof vents and front vent open for carbon monoxide safety, and been very warm and dry too? Wierd I know, but there are a lot of "wilderness facts" that fly in the face of "living room planning". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

What I meant by venting is that goretex doesn't pass enough oxygen for you to breath. So by venting you also lower the temp a bit but the worst condensation I've seen in my Bibler was some frost on the metal poles which are inside the tent (in the morning when I awoke). I think this evaporated off. Remeber water can go from solid to gas without passing through liquid, all it needs is dry air to evaporate.

I wrote a post about using my TNF mtn24 expedition dome in the snow. Its a 2 layer tent. I keep things open just a bit, in a way that snow can't blow in but a bit of air can pass through. In the morning Kristin and I were totally dry even where the bags were against the side of the tent and the tent was completely dry everywhere. (AND WERE COMPLETELY BURIED IN SNOW) OTOH I have loaned the tent to two buddies of mine who camped next to my Bibler and in the morning they were "sopping wet", and one guy said "there was a river flowing through it last night. Go figure? I have no idea what they did wrong. Thats another problem, when ya get really good at something its hard to imagine how badly other people can do it and you can't help them.

I know I'm a wierdo nut, but my experience allows me to go places and do things that would litteraly kill inexperienced people. Like most proffesional building trade people say, "Its all in the wrist". My wrist knows how to: paint, plaster, cut wood, etc and I have to learn the correct wrist english to do what they do. How about motorcycles? I've ridden 75 thousand miles a lot of it in the dirt - how do you explain to people how to ride a bike in the dirt? Its like just grabbing a water bottle and a bic and going skiing for the day. I can do it, some can't.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Jim VERY important point to bring up concerning carbon monoxide in tents, as we know some folks who read and don't post; might not realize the inherent dangers of something as benign as lighting a votive candle in a sealed up tent in the Winter <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The fact that you are body warming the air inside a Winter tent is enough for it to need adequate airflow/venting to allow moisture burdened air to exit the tent before condensing on the walls. But when you have a single wall tent then you want the interior air pressure built up enough to force the vapor through the walls before condensing. What happens with excessive snowfall onto the exterior fabric while you are asleep though? If you have'nt vented a small amount, as you did, then surely you'd have your buddies situation, the loanees, 'river runs through it' scenerio <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Again, because heat rises, and carries the water vapor with it; it would seem logical that a pyramid or tepee style with peak venting and door venting would be ideal if setup in a slightly more sheltered area than say a bombproof tent IMO.

Jim
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#82355 - 11/06/07 09:42 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Trailrunner]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Trailrunner, that sounds logical; my question would be why did you not open both vents slightly?
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#82356 - 11/06/07 09:50 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Jimshaw]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Jimshaw, then a teflon coated fabric would be the way to go for Winter, no? Teflon coating would negate the breathability IMO of hi tech fabrics, thus relagating it to the lesser fabrics of tents of the 3 season kind. Still, it might be beneficial to those tents with regard to wetting out because the rain would have less to hang onto fabric-wise IMO.
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#82357 - 11/06/07 01:19 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Earthling]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Earthling
Goretex is teflon foam. sort of.

Thats why I question that water vapor molecules can "freeze" inside of pores too small for water molecules. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

We used a megamid in a windy snowstorm. Spindrift aside, the condensation was so bad (because the moist air freezing high in the tent) that it snowed inside the tent as the frost broke off. Without bivy bags our sleeping bags would have been covered with frost. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Trailrunner,
don't misunderstand me, and my rejection of Dr Jordans idea. I worked in a large lab with 1/3 doctors on the staff. As you mentioned about the forum, if we only used science that all the doctors agreed on, there wouldn't be much. I was a principle engineer with teams working for me. I respected all the doctors, but I was responsible for shaping what they designed so all the pieces fit together. The more ya know, the more ya question. I look for chaos, others look for simplicity. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I do believe that woven "breathable"fabrics that depend on fabric pores can freeze up.

Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#82358 - 11/06/07 07:29 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Jimshaw]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2124
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I picked up a BD Hilight last Spring, but haven't used it yet. I got it to use in early Spring and early to late Fall. I have read mixed reviews on the material, so I have been a little leery about using it, plus, after seam sealing it, I found out it weighted 3.5 lbs. not 2.5 as its trail weight was listed. If I had weighted it before I spent hours seam sealing, I would have returned it to REI. I thought packaged weight included the box it was packaged in and so forth.

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#82359 - 11/08/07 11:41 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: hikerduane]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Jim, well that explains the fact they we'll be here to the cows come home <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> arguing the merits of various fabric enclosures due to regional weather anomalies that can occur anytime we leave home <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#82360 - 11/08/07 07:12 PM Single wall GTX tents in winter... [Re: Rick]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
I know that Gore-Tex needs warmth to "push" out the vapor. To do that effeciently the tent needs to be as small as possible - say a hooped 1 person tent that you can't sit up inside.

If ya still want single wall breathable then win a lottery and make yerself an eVent tent.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#82361 - 11/08/07 07:13 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Earthling]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Earthling,
Gore-Tex Is PTFE (Teflon).

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#82362 - 11/08/07 10:06 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
canyonS Offline
member

Registered: 08/08/03
Posts: 601
Actually, any 4 season tent in very cold weather will condense. I had a Garuda single wall which was fine above 20 degrees but around 10 degrees it snows inside bit. I think Gore Tex is less breathable in moderate temps because of the flocking on todd Tex but in super cold that stuff doesnt do anything anyway. East cost cold will=interior snow. I have had no problem in california.

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#82363 - 11/09/07 09:55 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Jimshaw]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Goretex is teflon foam. sort of.

Thats why I question that water vapor molecules can "freeze" inside of pores too small for water molecules.
Gore Tex has done an excellent job in not telling the whole story about it's membrane. I hesitate to comment here, but feel a slight need based on some inaccurate information...

Gore Tex, after realizing their first generation was failing because of oil and dirt contamination, did something that would greatly effect it's breathablility. They added an additional layer of material, polyurethane (PU), to combat the oils put out by the body. This layer is oeliophobic or "oil-hating" and is necessary to keep the Gore Tex membrane (ePTFE) from leaking (yes, Gore Tex can leak!). In reality, Gore Tex is 80% space. Without the surface energy created by the hydrophobic ePTFE membrane, Gore Tex would leak which is exactly what happened with the first generation of Gore. The oils broke down this surface energy. It is interesting to note that Gore Tex has only changed slightly since the second generation was introduced (Gore XCR and the newer Pro Shell still use the PU layer).

The problem with this layer is that it is a hydrophilic (water loving) monolithic, or solid, layer. In other words, water has to "diffuse (traveling from a greater concentration to a lesser concentration)" through it in order to reach the microporous Gore Tex layer. Thus Gore Tex's breathability is totally reliant upon this PU membrane for it's breathability. Because of this, Gore Tex is at its highest breathability when there is a 100% humidity level inside the jacket, tent, etc. That is why one needs to build up vapor and heat pressure inside the garment, tent, or whatever to "push" the condensation out. Gore Tex does not work at low humidity levels because of this PU membrane which may account for frost or liquid buildup inside a tent. This is also why it is nearly impossible to find a Gore Tex tent.

On the other hand, eVent doesn't have a PU membrane and is therefore very effective at low humidity levels. It is the premiere membrane for single wall tents, but unfortunately doesn't pass outdated fire retardancy tests. eVent is also an ePTFE membrane, but uses instead a hydrophobic (water hating) polymer infused by a super-critical gas treatment to encapsulate the pours of the Teflon membrane to achieve it's oil-hating (oeliophobic) characteristics. Thus it is truly a microporous membrane. This equates to it being 30% (at high humidity levels) to 200% (at low humidity levels) more breathable than Gore Tex!
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#82364 - 11/10/07 11:54 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: canyonS]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Good points CanyonS, and it's nice to see you posting Jason. Thanks Eric for clearing that up <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#82365 - 11/16/07 05:24 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
Carter Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 355
Loc: Missoula, MT
There are a lot of theories and anecdotal evidence about single-walled WP/B performance in below freezing conditions, but I'd like to point out another contributing factor to breathability (or the lack thereof). The flame retardant treatment used to pass CPAI-84 tests affects both the weight and the breathability of the tent. For example, the Epic tents made by Black Diamond do not pass this test, and thus cannot be sold in California, Canada, Michigan, etc. (Check the listing at REI.com for the LightHouse).

At one time, both Integral Designs and Bibler offered their tents in both CPAI-84 spec and also without the flame retardant treatment. I remember one poster saying that she used an ID MKIII on the Appalachian Trail and had a miserable time with condensation during the summer. I asked if the tent had a tag with the CPAI-84 statement, and she said that hers did. My ID MKIII doesn't meet the spec, and it's fine for breathability.

All of the Biblers that I have are non flame-retardant with the exception of a Pinion, and they are generally fine in the cold and the rain. But there are differences: the Eldorado and I-Tent have superb ventilation with the roof vents and and the doors that have three zippers so you can vent both from below (stake out the little flap at the bottom of the exterior door) and from above (protected by the wired brim). But the Torre tent has no roof vents (and also built in vestibules), so it is more prone to frosting up on the ceiling (and of course the poles and the seam tape).

But I think I read once in some Bibler literature that the bigger the tent, the less condensation. I have an unusual Bomb Shelter that was probably made for the Special Forces. Instead of ToddTex, it has GoreTex (says so on the inside) with the same type of scrim as found on jackets. Not only is it supremely dry inside under all conditions (even without roof vents), it is also big. I don't know what to attribute this to: perhaps GoreTex is more breathable than ToddTex, perhaps the lighter scrim (also found on eVent tents) is better at passing moisture than the fuzzy nexxus stuff, or perhaps bigger is better.

Here, I've found the statement from Bibler about condensation vs. size:

Do I have to "heat up" the tent's interior to make it breathe?

The myth about single wall tents is that they require a pressure differential, interior to exterior, in order to breathe and prevent condensation. If this were true, you would find less condensation in a smaller tent or bivy sack than in a larger tent. In fact, the larger the surface area of fabric, ie: the bigger the tent, the less condensation occurs.

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#82366 - 11/18/07 08:56 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
1PolarBear Offline
member

Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 144
Loc: Land of the Rockies
Hi Rick -

I've used my Integral Designs MK1XL in temps from ~90F to -30F. Mine has 2 full size doors and no roof vents. I noticed condensation formed on the walls when it was -30F because i closed the doors completely (i know bad bad bad), but until then only minor condensation on the tent poles.

fm

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#82367 - 11/19/07 05:29 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Many varied responses indicate there are alot of variables to consider.

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences amd knowledge.

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#82368 - 11/27/07 11:48 PM Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? (VBL?) [Re: Rick]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
HEY! I just reckymembered sumthin' from one of these sites' forums.

A backpacker said that using a VBL in your sleeping bag would lessen the amount of frost inside your tent. Yery astute observation.

Personally I'd LIKE to use VBL clothing inside my bag instead of a VBL bag liner. The clothing could then be a multiple use item. But... methinks too much vapor would leak out of the neck and cuff areas. Thus a bag liner would seem to be more effective.

Eric


Edited by 300winmag (11/27/07 11:49 PM)
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#82369 - 12/01/07 02:35 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Carter]
AT_Disciple Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 18
Loc: N. VA
Just to add to what you've said here Carter - Black Diamond does currently offer the Bibler tents in both the non-flame as well as the flame retardant versions. I recently purchased two Eldorado tents, one from REI and another from Backcountry, the REI tent is a flame retardant tent (probably b/c they have stores in most/all states and it helps them avoid legal issues), whereas the Backcountry tent specifies that "it is not fire proof and is not made with fire retardant material". An additional plus of the non flame retardant tents (b/c they are not coated with the chemical) is that they are a smidge lighter.


Quote:
There are a lot of theories and anecdotal evidence about single-walled WP/B performance in below freezing conditions, but I'd like to point out another contributing factor to breathability (or the lack thereof). The flame retardant treatment used to pass CPAI-84 tests affects both the weight and the breathability of the tent. For example, the Epic tents made by Black Diamond do not pass this test, and thus cannot be sold in California, Canada, Michigan, etc. (Check the listing at REI.com for the LightHouse).

At one time, both Integral Designs and Bibler offered their tents in both CPAI-84 spec and also without the flame retardant treatment. I remember one poster saying that she used an ID MKIII on the Appalachian Trail and had a miserable time with condensation during the summer. I asked if the tent had a tag with the CPAI-84 statement, and she said that hers did. My ID MKIII doesn't meet the spec, and it's fine for breathability.

All of the Biblers that I have are non flame-retardant with the exception of a Pinion, and they are generally fine in the cold and the rain. But there are differences: the Eldorado and I-Tent have superb ventilation with the roof vents and and the doors that have three zippers so you can vent both from below (stake out the little flap at the bottom of the exterior door) and from above (protected by the wired brim). But the Torre tent has no roof vents (and also built in vestibules), so it is more prone to frosting up on the ceiling (and of course the poles and the seam tape).

But I think I read once in some Bibler literature that the bigger the tent, the less condensation. I have an unusual Bomb Shelter that was probably made for the Special Forces. Instead of ToddTex, it has GoreTex (says so on the inside) with the same type of scrim as found on jackets. Not only is it supremely dry inside under all conditions (even without roof vents), it is also big. I don't know what to attribute this to: perhaps GoreTex is more breathable than ToddTex, perhaps the lighter scrim (also found on eVent tents) is better at passing moisture than the fuzzy nexxus stuff, or perhaps bigger is better.

Here, I've found the statement from Bibler about condensation vs. size:

Do I have to "heat up" the tent's interior to make it breathe?

The myth about single wall tents is that they require a pressure differential, interior to exterior, in order to breathe and prevent condensation. If this were true, you would find less condensation in a smaller tent or bivy sack than in a larger tent. In fact, the larger the surface area of fabric, ie: the bigger the tent, the less condensation occurs.

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#82370 - 12/02/07 07:30 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: AT_Disciple]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Quote:
Just to add to what you've said here Carter - Black Diamond does currently offer the Bibler tents in both the non-flame as well as the flame retardant versions. I recently purchased two Eldorado tents, one from REI and another from Backcountry, the REI tent is a flame retardant tent (probably b/c they have stores in most/all states and it helps them avoid legal issues), whereas the Backcountry tent specifies that "it is not fire proof and is not made with fire retardant material". An additional plus of the non flame retardant tents (b/c they are not coated with the chemical) is that they are a smidge lighter.


I wrote to BD about this. Here is the answer I got back:

"Thanks for the email. Most of our Bibler tents are manufactured in non fire-retardant models and for the 6 or 7 states that require it we make an identical fire-retardant version. The Eldorado model is available only in a non FR version. Any of the Fire-retardant models see an average increase in weight of about 8-12 ounces. I hope this helps."

Therefore, whoever told you one of your Eldorados is made of fire retardant material is wrong.
_________________________
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#82371 - 12/03/07 12:43 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: TomD]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Now don't that beat all Tom <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#82372 - 12/03/07 02:37 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: TomD]
AT_Disciple Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 18
Loc: N. VA
Thats not something I was told Tom - That was my first-hand experience - I have both versions. Two similar labels but one (on the REI tent), very distinctly states that 'it IS made with fire retardant material' and the other (the Backcountry tent) states that 'it is NOT.....and will burn). Spoke to Jeff at Black Diamond about it Thursday or Friday of last week. He was perplexed as well and thought that perhaps REI may carry both versions. Apparently it is possible to purchase all Bibler models, (or at least the Eldorado), with or without the fire retardant coating.I'm pretty sure the Tempest can be purchased either way as well, as I had spoken to someone a while back about that particular model. So I guess it's 'caveat emptor', if one is concerned about breath-ability with respect to flame-retardant tents.

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#82373 - 12/03/07 05:00 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: AT_Disciple]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
That is odd, because what BD told me is that they don't make Eldorados with flame retardant. Maybe they did at one time and that one is old stock, but that would be a guess.

You would think that the maker would know what they are selling, but perhaps the customer service rep was mistaken. There is always the possibility the tent was mislabeled. One way to find out is to weigh both of them. The fire retardant adds 8-12 oz, according to BD.

If you are curious, email them and see what they tell you. As long as you aren't cooking in your tent, it probably isn't all that relevant.
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#82374 - 10/22/08 05:17 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Never to late for an update.
I did three multi day camps last winter, totalling about a dozen nights in my Early Winters tent. The night time temperatures ranged from -5C (23F) to -17C (1F). In all case the first night I slept with both the door and rear window closed. In all cases there were varying degrees of condensation on the inside of the tent. The second night I opened the door and window (see picture below) and in all cases there was no condensation of any kind.
So, as unscientific as this is, I think I can say that Gore Tex breathes very little, if at all, in sub zero temperatures.
At about 2.2 kg (4.9 lb) this has become my go to winter tent. I will do some more testing this winter. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



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#82375 - 10/22/08 06:18 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
kutenay Offline
member

Registered: 10/12/04
Posts: 102
Loc: B.C. Canada
Boy, that brings back memories, I bougt one exactly like yours in 1977 or '78 and used it intensely for many years until it was sunbleached almost white. I actually lived in it for over a month one spring some 50 miles into the Flathead Valley in SE-BC and had it in humungous winds, heavy snow dumps and bitter cold many times.

My floor finally gave up and when I contacted Rainy Pass about replacement, the cost was such that I decided to simply let the old and dear "friend" go. I kept it in my gear room until about 2005 and then ptiched it....damm near wept, I had SO many good memories of times in that tent.

Bill Nicolai was a brilliant guy and Early Winters were just FINE folks to deal with, Im had clothing, bivies and really neat woolen hats from them, wish they were still in the game. I prefered this tent to the Bibler Solo Dome I replaced it with and never really liked the Bibler, smaller, lighter, too cramped and just not as "cool".

I have gone to Integral Designs as my only singlewall tents, bivies and they are best of all, IME. I will burn a candle lantern to deal with condensation, but, all in all, I prefer singlewall tents for really cold weather camping, just wish that Evan Jones of ID could still make and sell his little MKI-Lite from eVENT, now, THAT was the answer!

Good to see I am not the only one here who remembers Early Winters!

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#82376 - 10/22/08 09:30 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
I have an Early Winters light Dimension, but mine does not have the pole running through the middle, nor do I recall seeing that in catalogs. Was this an option? A design change?

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#82377 - 10/22/08 11:14 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Hey Rick, does that third pole arching over the top make the tent freestanding? It looks like it. Is that a vestibule in front or just the door to the tent itself?

I remember Early Winters. Loved to get their catalog in the mail way back before the Internet. The only thing I bought from them was a candle lantern, which I still have.


Edited by TomD (10/22/08 11:15 PM)
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#82378 - 10/23/08 04:31 AM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: TomD]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
It is very close to free standing. The front corners still need to be pulled out. My intention was to enable the tent to withstand a snow load, not so much to make it freestanding. With the mods the tent cannot collapse under load - unless something breaks or rips. Before the mods it would not handle any type of load without the two ends collapsing inwards. There is no vestibule - the inside length is something like 8 or 8 1/2 ft with a total floor area of something like 38 or 40 sq. ft. - lots of room inside.
Changes from original include: Easton poles, new pole along the length. cross over strap to stabalize the new pole (I split the seams to sew this directly into the tent body), pole sleeves to capture the new pole and stretch the tent length wise, and a pocket on the beak to hold it up and out from the tent with the new pole.
This being the Granddaddy of tunnel tents (about 40 years old), is was nice to obtain it from a member on this site for a very reasonable price and breath some new life into it. (I would buy another one if anybody has one that's not being used.)
Here are a couple of more pictures:





Edited by Rick (10/23/08 04:36 AM)

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#82379 - 10/23/08 12:48 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
Very clever design changes. Did the Easton poles reduce the weight from the original fiberglass poles? I'm not about to give up my Light Dimension, in fact I'd love to pick up an Early Winters Winter Light and, or a Marmot Taku.

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#82380 - 10/23/08 04:12 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: alanwenker]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
The original Fiberglass poles weigh 210 gm (7.4 oz) and the replacement Easton poles weigh 330 gm (11.6 oz) not included the new pole. One of the original poles was broken which necessitated to change.

Sure would like to see a picture of the Winter Light.

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#82381 - 10/23/08 08:18 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: Rick]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
Quote:
Sure would like to see a picture of the Winter Light.


Here you are my good sir. I scanned these from catalogs for Bruce at Oregon Photos. (catalogs are as close as I've come to a winter light)
http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/meganandrusty/early%20winters/

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#82382 - 10/23/08 08:50 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: alanwenker]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Very cool. Gotta love some of this old stuff, eh. Thanks. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#82383 - 10/23/08 11:28 PM Re: Single wall tents in freezing temperatures? [Re: alanwenker]
bmisf Offline
member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 629
Quote:
Here you are my good sir. I scanned these from catalogs for Bruce at Oregon Photos. (catalogs are as close as I've come to a winter light)
http://s12.photobucket.com/albums/a249/meganandrusty/early%20winters/


Love seeing this old stuff - thanks for posting!

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