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#81853 - 10/27/07 05:53 PM scared now...
trippypaws Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4
Loc: PA, USA
I've always been a trail hiker/runner and have never had any real problems on outings. A friend of mine recently shared that she's been assaulted not once, but TWICE while long distance trail running. She didn't go into complete detail, but enough to completely freak me out. I've since rescued a large dog who has turned out to have the protective instincts of a wet dishrag so he's not much consolation. Now I plan a trip and then always change my mind at the last moment and stay home. My husband has no desire to accompany me on super long hikes that I love. I know I could go with some group, but being forced to be social sort of takes away from the solitude that is the whole draw for me to get out there in the first place. Are there any solo women hikers with the answer or some suggestions?

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#81854 - 10/27/07 06:38 PM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Well, a very competent lady friend of mine also liked to go out for solo excursions. She casually mentioned to me that on one such trip in Grand Canyon, she carried, in utter and complete defiance of all sacred and holy NPS rules and regulations, a 38 Special revolver. This was specifically for a potential assault. Made sense to me then, and it still does now.

I suspect that the less traveled and more isolated the trail, the less this would be a problem, but it will be interesting to see what others say.

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#81855 - 10/27/07 06:55 PM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Look at general crime statistics for the area where you live.

Look at traffic accident statistics for the roads you use.

Now ask about crime on the trails you frequent.

I can almost guarantee that you're much more safe on the trail than you are driving to the trailhead.


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#81856 - 10/27/07 09:33 PM Re: scared now... [Re: oldranger]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
I agree with Trailrunner (that you're safer on the trail than almost anywhere) and Old Ranger (but carry a .38 anyway just in case). But that's three responses from males now, and maybe we need someone actually IN the same situation as you to respond.

Interesting that YESTERDAY, in Miami of course, we had a young girl attacked by some guy and her little dog turned into the hero. So maybe get a companion for that big, lazy brute you've got and get a Jack Russell, my favorite dog-genre in the world.

Story about the girl and her JR is here.


Our former fosterdog Spike anihilating a coconut
-- imagine what she could do to an attacker's thigh --
or calf -- or ankle -- or a toe?
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#81857 - 10/28/07 09:22 AM Re: scared now... [Re: kevonionia]
trippypaws Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4
Loc: PA, USA
Thanks for all responses - It did occur to me to arm myself. I believe I can have a concealed permit in PA. Rethinking the dog aspect. Even though my humongous mutt goes skittering off at the mere insinuation of conflict or raised voice (probably from something in his pre-SPCA past), he is big and his pit bull half is quite obvious. Probably a good deterrent before the wimpiness would even need to be apparent. Another thing I thought of was to find the most chest-concealing crushing sports bra out there, shove all my hair up under a ballcap and walk like a dude. I just can't believe I'd ever be so chicken to go on a hike.

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#81858 - 10/28/07 09:40 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
trippy paws
Why would you subject your pet to the dangers of protecting you? I hear this so much - my dog would protect me from a bear - how by giving up its life? I knew a guy whose dog saved him from a grizzly, dog died of course...

I've maybe seen one or two really pretty girls on the trail with their dogs (in wilderness) and they were friendly and every guy who came by stopped and said hi and offered any help or assistance. If you are uptight, wearing boys clothes and acting like men are gonna attack you, they will sense it. You won't have a good time. You'll be way too scared and uptight. Better would be to meet up with two guys and ask if you can hike/camp with them for safety. But be friendly to them as you may need their help.

If it bothers you that much, stay home. A gun will not help, it will only make things worse. Finally, do you know how to use a gun? And why concealed? If you're that uptight, cary in an exposed shoulder holster.

A wise person once said "Those people capable of hitting a running bear or lion in the ten ring already own their gun and are allready experts. If this does not describe you, do not carry a gun for selfdefense. There have been a lot of threads on the subject, our police/commando members ask - could you react correctly and pull the trigger in a combat situation?

Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#81859 - 10/28/07 10:16 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
The question to ask is WHERE on the trail was your friend assaulted? Was it close to the/a trailhead or a million miles from nowhere? My guess is that it was probably close to a trailhead, as people bent on assaulting women aren't going to be waiting 10 miles down the trail on the off-chance that one is going to happen along. Also, what exactly was the nature of the 'assault'? Was she raped, or was she approached by someone who didn't actually touch her, but made lewd acts that made her uncomfortable (this has happened to me before)? Ask more about what happened before scaring yourself into a tizzy. And I agree with Jim... unless you're already an expert markswoman, a gun isn't going to help you. Learning how to stay rational when your instinct is to panic is by far a more important survival tool than a gun or pepper spray. You're already in a panic before you even go out - I can tell you right now a gun isn't going to calm your nerves if you get approached by someone who makes you uncomfortable.

Andrea
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#81860 - 10/28/07 10:48 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Jimshaw]
trippypaws Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4
Loc: PA, USA
I simply am attempting to brainstorm here and consider some suggestions that are offered. Again folks, just to be specific, I'm looking for some quick bits of advice and definitely not looking to bore anyone with a tome on my views on animals or experience with firearms. Hasn't anyone had the experience where someone you know is hurt or killed in an accident then you're a bit weirded out and extra careful for a while? I'm really new to forums in case you haven't noticed. Didn't realize it could get all funny...woo.

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#81861 - 10/28/07 11:11 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
The problem is that there isn't a quick way to deal with your situation. You can't subjugate your sense of safety to a "tool" of any kind, whether it be a dog, a gun, or what have you. Fear is an irrational state. If something scares you, you have to understand what it is that frightens you and work your way through the process of how to respond rationally to the situation. Seriously... take a self defense class that not only teaches you how to react physically, but also how to react rationally and allows you to practice it. Simply telling yourself not to be afraid, or having stranges tell you that you have nothing to be afraid of, isn't going to work. External 'confidence' will only give you false bravado, but should something happen fear will be your first instinct. Once fear takes root it is extraodinarily difficult to overcome.

We all have very real fears that we've developed after a personal experience. I know I have an extreme fear of crowds after being in a crowd so dense I was moving down the street without my feet touching the ground. This happened in 1982, about the time there were a number of trampling deaths at concerts around the US, so I know that played into the fear I still have. I have not really dealt with this fear because it doesn't keep me from doing something I want to do. Fear is really primarily a problem when you allow it to dictate your actions, especially when the fear is based on something that didn't even happen to you. If I were to give in to all of my fears, believe me, I'd never get out of bed in the morning. Driving terrifies me (because I've been in several accidents where I was not the cause of the accident), so I learned how to become a defensive driver. Eating out terrifies me (because I have a health problem that limits what I can safely eat), but I'm learning that I CAN find safe food at 'unsafe' restaurants if I just pay more attention to what and how I order. These are examples of fears I've developed because of my personal experiences. OMG, if I stopped and thought about all the possible things that could happen to me on any given day... I know people who have been raped, I know people who have been assaulted... what I see on a daily basis in the ER should terrify anyone. You just can't give in to the fear. You can have a healthy respect that bad things can happen, but you've got to stop it at that or you will never break out of fear's grasp. Like I said before, the best way to deal with it is to identify what it is that really scares you, then do what you need to do to overcome the fear from within.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#81862 - 10/28/07 11:16 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Regarding attitude:

In college I saw all kinds of scared girls walking across campus alone at night, chatting on their cell phones nervously with keys in their hands "ready to stab someone" in the words of a friend. I hated it, because inevitably I felt that I scared one or two just by being around. I'm a big tall guy, it was dark, they were obviously worried about "strangers at night" and that caused me to feel self conscious as all heck as I walked back from night classes.

I'd much rather that those girls had the confidence and knowledge to defend themselves and displayed it, rather than acting like scared defenseless victims just hoping nobody would bother them. Even if that just meant pepper spray, a little bit of judo (yes judo, a girlfriend did a half year of judo and she could toss me), or whatever does the trick. The worried attitude was apparent from across a parking lot. I agree with Jim, your attitude means a lot and it's usually apparent if you are walking around scared or walking around confident. It was a relief to see someone who smiled as we passed or didn't tense up if I walked faster than them.
_________________________
- John

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#81863 - 10/28/07 12:47 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Xelif]
leadfoot Offline
member

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 954
Loc: Virginia
Agreed. I carry a small can of pepper spray and not a gun. I know myself. I'd never be able to aim a gun and I really don't want to murder anyone...maime them and run is my style.

When I was out doing my solo this summer along the AT, I asked myself from time to time, what would I do if attacked? I have to say, I was a bit tired to fight back sometimes. I'm sure that would change to 'fight' mode, but the pepper spray would be enough for me to respond (and not react) and get a way, use my fixed blade knife if I had to. I also made sure I didn't camp near a road or where I saw beer bottles and litter.

Knowing self-defense and having confidence is such an advantage. Wearing my knife on my waist also sent a nice message.

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#81864 - 10/28/07 01:54 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
trippypaws Offline
newbie

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 4
Loc: PA, USA
You're all right. I'm looking for a quick, "wonder solution" where there isn't one. Rest assured folks, you wouldn't have ever found me cowering down a trail gun drawn and shaking. I guess that's the one problem with forums - one is only left to make assumptions(sp?) when so little info is given and I've probably given off the total wrong perception. I understand confidence, the importance of preparedness and the advantage of self defense. I have four years of isshinryu behind me so the self defense knowlege is there. It's just something I'll have to get over on my own...Thanks for all your help...

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#81865 - 11/04/07 05:04 PM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
mockturtle Offline
member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 251
Loc: WA
I carry bear spray, anyway, every time I hike. It would be as effective on human attackers as on bears, I suppose. At least it would buy me some time. That said, those new titanium revolvers sound uselful [and ultralight!] <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Would I kill someone who was out to attack me? You betcha! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#81866 - 11/04/07 05:24 PM Re: scared now... [Re: mockturtle]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Mockturtle
All I can say is ya better kill em with the first round cause if you shoot twice its murder, and if you wound them you become forever tied to them. I'd almost rather be the one that gets shot... than deal with the legal system if I shot someone. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I was attacked by a huge german shepard while hiking in a leash only wilderness area trail. Dog lover that I am, I suddenly found that there was a .44 magnum in my hands and I was tracking this animal as he charged. Animals are pretty sensitive to beng in the sights and he froze about 8-10 feet away while I spoke to him real gentley. Finally his girl came around the corner and called him off and appologized. I mentioned that it was a leash only area and that was for the dogs good as well as the other wildlife, and I certainly did not want to shoot her dog, but what else can you do if he doesn't stop? I love my dog and would be crushed if someone shot her. I have to wonder about people who take their dog "to protect them". HOW? - by giving his life for their stupidity? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I say that if you are carrying a weapon for self defense from humans you should seriously rethink your gameplan. Maybe you should stay in yer p'cup with the Easy Rider Rifle Rack. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Jim - who packs in mtn lion country - been challenged by one, had another walk up to my camp. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I suppose I should mention that I am an expert marksman or I wouldn't bother to carry even in lion country cause the odds of hitting one are slim, much beter to jump up and down and scare it off.
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

Top
#81867 - 11/04/07 05:33 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Jimshaw]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1736
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Quote:
All I can say is ya better kill em with the first round cause if you shoot twice its murder,

That is not really correct. You are permitted in most states to use deadly force under circumstances where any reasonable person would be in fear of their life. You are permitted to use whatever force is necessary to eliminate the threat to your life. If that requires one shot, fine; if it requires a whole magazine full, that is also fine. You might want to review the Oregon laws on use of deadly force; you will probably find that you have more options than you seem to think you do. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#81868 - 11/04/07 07:12 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Pika]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Pika
the following are quotes from the law firm of Swanson Thomas and Coon and are excerps of the complete document.: Regarding the lawful use of force in Oregon.
_______________________________
SELF-DEFENSE WITH LESS THAN DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE

Oregon allows a person to use non-deadly physical force for self-defense or in defense of a third person from what the person reasonably believes is the "use, or imminent use, of unlawful physical force." The degree of physical force that may be used is limited to the degree of force believed reasonably necessary to rebuff or contain the other person; <snip>, the defense is unavailable unless the provocateur withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates that withdrawal to the other person.

DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE

"Deadly physical force" (defined as "force readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury") is only lawful when it is used against a person reasonably believed to be attempting to commit a felony involving the threatened or imminent use of physical force against a person, or to defend against a burglary in a dwelling. A dwelling is a place where someone lives and sleeps. Oregon law restricts the use of deadly physical force to situations where it is unavoidable and there is no reasonable way to escape the conflict, which is sometimes referred to as "the necessity rule."

RESISTING ARREST

However, if a police officer uses excessive force in making an arrest, then the citizen has a right to use physical force in self-defense, but not to resist the arrest itself. In other words, if police are using excessive force then a citizen is entitled to protect him or her self from harm, and this right of self-protection trumps a police officer's right to make the arrest of a non-resisting citizen.
_______________________________________
So you better be careful about shooting someone in Oregon. Killing in self defense is only ok in special circumstances.

However we have a right to defend ourselves from the police - not in Calfornia....

Oh and reread my comment - if you shoot twice and once was enough - its murder in Oregon and California.

Jim - don't be mislead. check your state gun laws
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#81869 - 11/05/07 05:40 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Jimshaw]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1736
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Jim, I don't think that we really disagree. I think that the deadly force laws of Oregon are pretty much the same as those in most other states: First, a reasonable person can use deadly force in defense against an immediate threat to the lives of themselves or their family. Deadly force is not permitted simply in defense of property (except in New Mexico). A burglary with home occupants present is presumed to be an immediate threat in most states. Second, use of deadly force must cease when the threat no longer exists.

The statement you made that I was disagreeing with was this:
Quote:
All I can say is ya better kill em with the first round cause if you shoot twice its murder

Perhaps I am being nit-picky but to me that statement says that you only get one shot and if you miss with the first and then hit with a second, it is murder. That is not at all the case. To quote Oregon law:
Quote:
The degree of physical force that may be used is limited to the degree of force believed reasonably necessary to rebuff or contain the other person;

This does not limit the number of shots or the degree of force, it simply limits the force to that necessary to eliminate the threat. And, if you shoot twice and only one shot turns out to be necessary, I don't think a court would expect a person in such a situation to realize that at the time. In fact, most self-defense training emphasizes the use of the "double tap" where the shooter is trained to fire a quick, second follow-up shot and then to evaluate the situation before firing again. Police and civilians are both trained in this technique.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

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#81870 - 11/05/07 03:10 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Pika]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
You guys should'nt get too worked up over any of this gun stuff; as we have a newbie with no gun experience on our hands, and certainly don't need to encourage HER to carry a gun on the trails because she's already decided she's too afraid to be on the trail alone. I certainly hope she does'nt abuse her dog(by ignoring it and leaving it in the yard) in the future due to it's 'lack of desire to protect her' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#81871 - 11/06/07 02:26 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Jimshaw]
6brnorma Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 252
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
Mockturtle
All I can say is ya better kill em with the first round cause if you shoot twice its murder, and if you wound them you become forever tied to them. I'd almost rather be the one that gets shot... than deal with the legal system if I shot someone. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I was attacked by a huge german shepard while hiking in a leash only wilderness area trail. Dog lover that I am, I suddenly found that there was a .44 magnum in my hands and I was tracking this animal as he charged. Animals are pretty sensitive to beng in the sights and he froze about 8-10 feet away while I spoke to him real gentley. Finally his girl came around the corner and called him off and appologized. I mentioned that it was a leash only area and that was for the dogs good as well as the other wildlife, and I certainly did not want to shoot her dog, but what else can you do if he doesn't stop? I love my dog and would be crushed if someone shot her. I have to wonder about people who take their dog "to protect them". HOW? - by giving his life for their stupidity? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I say that if you are carrying a weapon for self defense from humans you should seriously rethink your gameplan. Maybe you should stay in yer p'cup with the Easy Rider Rifle Rack. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Jim - who packs in mtn lion country - been challenged by one, had another walk up to my camp. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I suppose I should mention that I am an expert marksman or I wouldn't bother to carry even in lion country cause the odds of hitting one are slim, much beter to jump up and down and scare it off.


Daaayum Jim...and all this time I thought you were one of these 'Peace Activist', tree huggin', dope smokin', birkenstock wearin', PETA people......I'm impressed! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#81872 - 11/08/07 11:23 AM Re: scared now... [Re: 6brnorma]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Ya' Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#81873 - 11/08/07 02:05 PM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
whcobbs Offline
member

Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 227
trippypaws--
Here's some very conventional advice from a mostly solo hiker. Do some group hikes for a while, talk out your concerns with whatever hiker friends you trust to discuss the matter, get very specific information from other recent hikers on planned solo routes. Your realistic fears and the spooky ones should sort out. Also, it took me sometime to realize that hiking poles have some utility as defensive weapons without raising "issues".
Walt

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#81874 - 11/08/07 04:30 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Earthling]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I guess I musta got got carried away. Sorry guys.
I hope I'm nobodies worst nightmare...
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#81875 - 11/08/07 05:57 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Jimshaw]
6brnorma Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 252
Loc: Arizona
Nope....just found it humorous coming from you. You're normally that 'informative, laid back dude'.

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#81876 - 11/09/07 11:46 AM Re: scared now... [Re: 6brnorma]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
Nope....just found it humorous coming from you. You're normally that 'informative, laid back dude'.


Yeah, that's Jim.....the laidback Dude <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#81877 - 11/09/07 01:34 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Earthling]
6brnorma Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 252
Loc: Arizona
Well....there's no 'dripping with sarcasm' emocon on this site so I did the best I could. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#81878 - 02/03/08 01:23 PM Re: 21 foot rule [Re: Jimshaw]
Ecrow Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 85
Loc: N. New Mexico
Jim is right, There is very rarely a scenario where a gun is the best option against a person. (research the 21 foot rule, a study of professional gun users). I'm not a weirdo, but if I wanted to abduct a woman, I would just act as if I was running past her, punch her in the stomach and tackle her, and handcuff her. What defense is there against that? Maybe a friend. Could you really trust an animal, is it trained? Anytime someone is within four feet of you, you are vulnerable. Find a friend, that is the only way. Then you can motivate each other to keep a schedule. It's more fun with a friend anyhow!!

Ecrow
_________________________
Ecrow
Live to tell.

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#81879 - 02/06/08 06:30 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
You're already in a panic before you even go out - I can tell you right now a gun isn't going to calm your nerves if you get approached by someone who makes you uncomfortable. Andrea


Sorry, got to totally disagree here. Under the circumstances discussed here, there is nothing more calming than a quality gun in the hands of someone that is familiar with it's use, which entails their knowing how to use it quickly, efficiently, and with dead on accuracy to either wound to solely incapacitate or to take a life by choice where needed. The throwing up and nerves come later, after the fact.

It took my gentle wife much consideration to come to the realization, that for her to continue living to care for her children, shooting an attacker would be necessary. I bought her a Smith & Wesson 38 Special 30 years ago. I trained her and she became proficient with the gun to a high degree of marksmanship. She never had to use it during all those years, but it was there and ready if she had needed it. She never flaunted the gun, and never intentionally allowed family or friends to know she carried it. She does not regret carrying a weapon all those years and has advised her friends to purchase a weapon. I respect her very much for doing what was necessary to take control over that area of her life where she was at the mercy of others. Brum
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#81880 - 02/07/08 08:15 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Brumfield]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Well I'm going to have to disagree with Brumfield for the simple fact that everyone is different. I've seen guys throw up after shooting someone. I've seen guys act fine. I've seen guys who were kind of quiet and reserved for a few days, a week, a month and those who still aren't really the same. I know for me personally, and this is going to sound really screwed up I'm sure, it felt like the first time I killed a deer when I was 14. I was fine while doing it, nice and steady aim and knew exactly what I was doing, but I was shaking like crazy for a few minutes after words because of the adrenaline that I couldn't hold back any longer.

So, while some people might be willing to fire that gun, they may be way to scared and shaky to get a good enough shot to even consider pulling the trigger. And while some people might have calm nerves and have a nice steady aim, they may not have the nerve to fire. Training helps, but it isn't going to replicate what the situation is actually like. Everyone is different and thus require different types of defense sometimes. Guns don't always cut it.
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In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#81881 - 02/09/08 07:19 AM Re: scared now... [Re: MattnID]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:


MattnAK wrote:
So, while some people might be willing to fire that gun, they may be way to scared and shaky to get a good enough shot to even consider pulling the trigger. And while some people might have calm nerves and have a nice steady aim, they may not have the nerve to fire. Training helps, but it isn't going to replicate what the situation is actually like. Everyone is different and thus require different types of defense sometimes. Guns don't always cut it.


I agree, it does depend on the person's background, training, and nerve. I've never shot anyone, and I can imagine, if I did, I would be extremely remorseful and throwing up would be guaranteed. I would weep for them if they died. What was the situation when you had to shoot your first person? Brum
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#81882 - 02/09/08 11:53 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Brumfield]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Iraq and I think I'll just leave it at that. Sorry about the vagueness, I just don't like going into that whole thing much if I can help it.
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#81883 - 02/09/08 04:23 PM Re: scared now... [Re: MattnID]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
I'm actually more worried that I'll get a case of appendicitis than bears or bad people in the backcountry <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You die without immediate medical attention from appendicitis <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but you can utilize other means at your disposal for dealing with ornery 2 legged critters in the backcountry, as opposed to carrying the weight of a gun. I generally forgo the carrying of weapons on what to me is a pleasurable outing that I plan in advance <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your Service MattAK, give me a PM if things get funky for you <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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#81884 - 02/11/08 10:40 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Earthling]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
having had my appendix burst, I see where you are coming from. Luckily, I was at home and near a hospital. At least now I don't have to worry about it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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#81885 - 02/11/08 05:23 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Earthling]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
I'm actually more worried that I'll get a case of appendicitis than bears or bad people in the backcountry <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You die without immediate medical attention from appendicitis


If this is really worrying you, carry some strong antibiotics. From what I understand, it's almost always a bacterial problem both before and after it bursts. Talk to a doctor, explain you go on long hikes, perhaps he will have a lot to say and a prescription.

(edit) PS, I've read of some pretty hair-raising backwater surgeries with no anesthetic! Not something you can do to yourself, yikes... unfortunately.


Edited by Xelif (02/11/08 05:26 PM)
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#81886 - 02/11/08 06:29 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Xelif]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
You have to be pretty specific with antibiotics for a burst appy... you would use something different for other causes of infection, and it is hard to make a field diagnosis on what the cause of your abdominal pain is. Even with training it is hard to make a definitive diagnosis - and unfortunately there really isn't a good "broad spectrum" antibiotic that can be used to treat all causes of peritonitis. I don't know enough of the specifics, but IIRC, the antibiotic needed to treat for a perfed appy is contraindicated in the treatment of peritonitis from other causes (such as a perfed bowel). Maybe I'm wrong here, and if I am please correct me, but it really isn't as simple as just carrying a strong antibiotic to treat any infection that might come along. A hot appy is porbably one of the most common causes of right lower quadrant abdominal pain, but by no means is it the only one.

MNS
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#81887 - 02/12/08 05:26 AM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
My sister had a problem with her appendix a few years ago, turned out to be mucinous cystadenoma. Antibiotics would not have been useful in her case. Treatment went well for her, looks like they caught it early. She still undergoes semi-annual CT scans.

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#81888 - 02/12/08 09:03 AM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
You have to be pretty specific with antibiotics for a burst appy... you would use something different for other causes of infection, and it is hard to make a field diagnosis on what the cause of your abdominal pain is. Even with training it is hard to make a definitive diagnosis - and unfortunately there really isn't a good "broad spectrum" antibiotic that can be used to treat all causes of peritonitis.


Thanks for clarifying, MNS. I should know better, I even know in my head that abdominal pain is one of the more annoying problems to diagnose.
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#81889 - 02/12/08 12:33 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
You have to be pretty specific with antibiotics for a burst appy... you would use something different for other causes of infection, and it is hard to make a field diagnosis on what the cause of your abdominal pain is. Even with training it is hard to make a definitive diagnosis - and unfortunately there really isn't a good "broad spectrum" antibiotic that can be used to treat all causes of peritonitis. I don't know enough of the specifics, but IIRC, the antibiotic needed to treat for a perfed appy is contraindicated in the treatment of peritonitis from other causes (such as a perfed bowel). Maybe I'm wrong here, and if I am please correct me, but it really isn't as simple as just carrying a strong antibiotic to treat any infection that might come along. A hot appy is porbably one of the most common causes of right lower quadrant abdominal pain, but by no means is it the only one.

MNS


Felix/Xelif, no one knows how well versed in medicine you are/are not, and so it's presumptive of you to be giving medical advice such as you did IMO. I don't see MD after your name <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

A burst appendix CANNOT be 'cured' with antibiotics; AND, there is no way a layman in the backcountry who has limited first aid knowledge is going to think, "Hmm?, that's your appendix, let me get out some antibiotics and it'll cure ya'' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Generally appendicitis strikes in such a fashion that it does not announce itself until the moment of doom <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> then you need suregry, which I'd rather not have in the field. Hence my chocie of wrestling with a bear vs getting an appendicitis attack in the woods. Apparently you're going to be ok with your little first aid kit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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#81890 - 02/12/08 04:07 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Earthling]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:

A burst appendix CANNOT be 'cured' with antibiotics; AND, there is no way a layman in the backcountry who has limited first aid knowledge is going to think, "Hmm?, that's your appendix, let me get out some antibiotics and it'll cure ya'' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Generally appendicitis strikes in such a fashion that it does not announce itself until the moment of doom <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> then you need suregry, which I'd rather not have in the field. Hence my chocie of wrestling with a bear vs getting an appendicitis attack in the woods. Apparently you're going to be ok with your little first aid kit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Earthling, I was NOT giving medical advice, I meant to offer a clearly unprofessional opinion that, in the backcountry, antibiotics might be the line between the bacteria and caustic, toxic stew of death overwhelming you in HOURS as opposed to a -day-.

I certainly was not trying to suggest that a course of general antibiotics and 'poof' you're cured of one of the most life-threatening conditions humans suffer from.

I also said please talk to a doctor before just tossing some antibiotics in your pack and deciding it's fine.

Thank you for your opinion on my first aid kit.

For that matter, medical opinions are offered constantly on this forum, but I'm sorry I suggested a fundamentally erroneous approach along with merely a weak caveat. I am often writing too much or too little, this time was most certainly too little and better said nothing.


Edited by Xelif (02/12/08 04:16 PM)

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#81891 - 02/12/08 06:32 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Xelif]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Ok, y'all... take two steps back, take a deep breath and smile... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You can't buy antibiotics over the counter, so no harm, no foul... it is a good idea to carry antibiotics in your first aid kit if you're going to be deep back country (strep throat is a good example of an easily treated infection that could go disasterously wrong if untreated, and fairly easy to 'self diagnose' if you've had strep before), so the advice is well intentioned but easily managed because you have to go through a licensed physician to get your supply (and they will tell you what you should and should not use your prescription for)...

I would say that probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the medevac transports I do involve some form of abdominal pain, frequently with good evidence that the pain is a hot appy. Sometimes we go to a great deal of expense to bring in someone who is just having a bad attack of gas. That is how seriously abdominal pain is taken in rural environments. If there is even a chance that someone might have an infected appendix, the rural docs will send them in, because they don't have the facilities to operate. Once the appy has perfed, the damage is done... you know your patient is going to be in the hospital for a while, dealing with peritonitis, and if you don't get the IV antibiotics in them fast enough, possibly septicemia. There are so many organs located in the peritoneum (abdominal cavity), and infection there can have very serious ramifications.

Anyway, Earthling, Xelif... back to your corners... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Peace,
MNS
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#81892 - 02/12/08 07:06 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
EricKingston Offline
member

Registered: 11/01/02
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan
Wow, talk about topic drift - from assault to antibiotics. Speaking of, I'd love to keep some Vancomycin and an IV kit in my pack if anyone has a some to spare!

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#81893 - 02/12/08 07:32 PM Re: scared now... [Re: EricKingston]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
I have several IV start kits, catheters and saline locks in my kit, but I also have the card that says I'm allowed to use them <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I don't carry IV fluids (although my IV kit is a compression fanny pack designed for 1L bladders with hose), but you can't underestimate the importance of getting a catheter into a vein in someone going into shock (internal bleeding or severe dehydration) sooner rather than later (can you say femoral line or central line? Not a 'field' application for sure). But youse gots to have the trainings and the 'authority' to use them (I carry them in my rescue kit and I have a medical director that allows me to use my training in the field). I've yet to use my IV skills in the field, and even if I did, the most I could do via IV would be to give d50 or plain old saline... no IV antibiotics...

MNS
_________________________
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#81894 - 02/12/08 08:13 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
What is the shelf life of most oral antibiotics? Anyone thinking of adding them to their first aid kit should bear in mind they will need to be replaced from time to time.

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#81895 - 02/12/08 08:28 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Paddy_Crow]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Most drugs, properly stored, are good well beyond their expiration dates. However, I'd ask a pharmacist about a specific prescription drug as they would have a better understanding of the drugs that change chemically over time (lost potency is less of an issue than actual changes at the chmical level, which some drugs will do).

MNS
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YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#81896 - 02/12/08 08:34 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
EricKingston Offline
member

Registered: 11/01/02
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan
Oh well... I'll just have to stick with Z-packs and stay away from any superbugs while in the backcountry. Although, you're lucky to have those IV setups on hand. I hear they do wonders for hangovers!

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#81897 - 02/13/08 09:52 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
cowboy Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 7
my mom hates me wilderness camping alone she hates it even more cuase i carry a 9mm with hollow points when i go but she understands we lost my brother back in 99 due to suside so i understand my moms fears but she suports me she just dont wanna loose me

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#81898 - 02/13/08 01:57 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
MNS well put, and I recognize that certain medicines are not shelf stable in the outdoors due to fluctuating temperatures in and out of a pack for weeks at a time.

Felix, I was merely trying to prevent a lurking newbie from running off with your posted info thinking it would all be ok because they carried 'the cure' when someone in their camp came down with appendicitis. It's a serious matter, more so than most in the outdoors as rescue/medical help is usually very difficult to get in a timely fashion.

I think folks who are medically qualified to give info do so at the risk of knowing they are posting in a public forum and the liabilities thereof. You may be qualified but giving 'answers' to such grave issues is not to be taken lightly.

Like Andi said, once your appy perfs' it's the hospital or certain death in due course without appropriate medical treatment, ie, surgery. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
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#81899 - 02/15/08 07:26 PM Re: scared now... [Re: cowboy]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
That is really tragic.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
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#81900 - 03/10/08 04:54 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
You're all right. I'm looking for a quick, "wonder solution" where there isn't one. Rest assured folks, you wouldn't have ever found me cowering down a trail gun drawn and shaking. I guess that's the one problem with forums - one is only left to make assumptions(sp?) when so little info is given and I've probably given off the total wrong perception. I understand confidence, the importance of preparedness and the advantage of self defense. I have four years of isshinryu behind me so the self defense knowlege is there. It's just something I'll have to get over on my own...Thanks for all your help...
Perhaps carrying a single hiking staff and practice some form of bo kata with it might be enough to restore your confidence. I agree that we shouldn't be too dependant on tools as quick fixes, but if the skills and knowledge are already there then just the right tool might be useful. Fear is irrational, but if a big stick helps you sleep at night, I say carry it. I heard some eastern coyotes when out on a morning hike a month ago, grabbed a big stick. Silly thing to do but I felt a whole lot better. The coyotes were long gone before I got out of the woods to see them. Perhaps if I carry a big stick next time I might be quicker with the camera. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

p.s. My big stick idea might help with bears also, assuming I got attached to hiking with one all the time. The hiking staff that is, not the bear. Black bears aren't a real concern here, they are very shy and so they smell me but I never see them. I don't think it would be a good idea to use it on the bear if ever had the privilege to meet one, but a big stick might help me keep my composure, and maybe save me a pair of underwear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#81901 - 03/14/08 07:19 PM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
Cattledogpushy Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1
Get an Australian Cattle Dog. Super durable dog that is extremely protective of it's owner. Can be vicious & will fight or sacrifice its life in defense of it's owner if neccessary.

They can be a little difficult to deal with at first, they require a lot of exercise & attention, but once they bond with you they're yours for life. A lot more responsibility than a firearm (you don't have to worry about a firearm attacking someone while your at work), they are a lifetime commitment but if you want to make a commitment they're very reassuring in the backcountry.

PJ

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#81902 - 03/28/08 07:27 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Cattledogpushy]
Tenderfoot Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Garland, TX
As I understand it if you really want to rely on your dog for protection you might want to have it trained for that otherwise you might be disappointed.

If you have ever watched an episode of "It Takes A Thief" they have actually stolen dogs when robbing a house. More often than not the dog goes of his own choosing.

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#81903 - 05/16/08 06:53 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
12Step Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Southwest Ohio
I know this is an old post so I'm not sure if it's read by the original poster and I hope that you are dealing with that fear.

There is an acronym that I live by when it comes to fear.

False
Emotions
Appearing
Real

I was plagued with fears and they ran my life. I like to put fear in the class of stealing. It is fear that can rob me of happiness.

Now it is understandable to have concerns for personal safety when on the trail. I have found websites that have hiking and/or trail running clubs that have members all over the place and probably in your area. If you don't feel comfortable alone on the trail, you can meet people that have the same interests as you and can hike with others. Safety in numbers.

Don't ever let fear keep you from doing something that you enjoy. I replaced the nasty f-word fear with another f-word, Faith.


Tom
_________________________
"Let's not miss the beauty of the forest by the ugliness of some of its trees." Bill W.

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#81904 - 06/07/08 05:11 PM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
chelsea9 Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 13
Loc: Seattle, WA & Tempe, AZ & Fort...
Wow, You sure got a LOT of advice about guns! (Just so you know, in backcountry you are in a close-quarter combat situation in which a knife is more effective than a firearm)

Hike with friends! Or your dog, but you don't have to. Make sure that you don't look vunerable because that is the cue for attackers. They don't pick the hardest target. You want to look like you have a lifeline and a defense. Bring a whistle and sound it if you are suspicious, three times in an emergency.
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#81905 - 07/05/08 01:43 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
mwg78 Offline
newbie

Registered: 07/05/08
Posts: 3
Loc: Fredericksburg, VA
To all of those who say that guns are no good for self-defense, or at least self-defense in close quarters combat, I beg to differ.

I used a concealed revolver to save my life earlier this year. A street thug grabbed my collar, pushed a gun in my abdomen, and demanded that I empty my pockets, I said "you got it," reached into my pockets as if to comply with his demand, and pulled out my revolver and shot him in the abdomen. It was quite apparent that he would have shot me if I had complied with his demand, so that there would be no witnesses to his crime. He survived and is now in prison. I have no military experiece, though I do like guns a lot and practice with them. I have no doubt that he would have shot me if I emptied my pockets for him, and that I would be DEAD if not for my legally owned revolver.

Granted, this was an urban situation, but I fail to see why one can claim, a priori, that a gun will NEVER do any good in a backpacking situation. Guns are life savers for law abiding citizens. Granted, guns are not a panacea that will save an innocent person's life in EVERY situation, but why limit one's odds of survival by refusing to carry one? Just because there are scenarios whereby one will not prevail, it still makes sense to carry a gun because there are plenty of situations where a gun will save even a novice's life. The only requirement is that the individual know basic gun safety, something that anyone non-mentally retarded person above the age of 10 or so should be able to manage. As long as one knows basic gun safety, then the positives of carrying a gun while backpacking will always outweigh the negatives of doing so.

Even if a gun would allow a given novice to save his/her life in only 1% of life-threatening backpacking situations, carrying a gun is worth it, because human life is precious; it's not as if the danger of the novice accidentally shooting himself/herself is SO great that it actually outweighs the benefit from the aforementioned 1% of situations (or however much it actually is). Whatever the probability of accidentally shooting one's self or one's companion is, it is much, much lower than the probability that the gun could successfully save lives during the trip.

There are so many situations where you're essentially a goner if you don't have a gun on you, and in my humble opinion, that is tragic. Why walk into a death trap? I do not think that people with an anti-gun political bias should tell someone not to bring a gun while backpacking, because human life is more important than political agendas.

I may come off as very opinionated on this issue, especially for my first post here, but as a law-abiding citizen who would be dead right now if not for a legally-owned gun, I feel very strongly about this issue, especially when people tell other people not to carry a gun to protect their lives.


Edited by mwg78 (07/05/08 01:56 PM)

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#81906 - 07/07/08 12:16 PM Re: scared now... [Re: mwg78]
Mattress Offline
member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 109
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
You make some good points. On the same vein, more people in the outdoors are killed by falling or drowning than by assault by a person (I'm guessing), so on top of a gun I'm now going to wear a lifejacket and a parachute. Sure they're heavy, but if they have just 1% chance of saving my life, then they're worth it.

One question though: do they make lifejackets that fit comfortably over my kevlar vest?
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#81907 - 07/07/08 02:02 PM Re: scared now... [Re: mwg78]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
For the record, my objection is not political. I'm by no means anti-gun... I own a gun (rifle), though it has been a long long time since I've shot it.

My objection to guns for "self defense" is that it is a subjugation of one's safety if that is the only tool you have to defend yourself. If you're comfortable and practiced with guns, then by all means, carry one if you're so inclined. But don't go out and buy a gun out of fear... that could be a recipe for disaster.

Please be careful about making assumptions about the nature of people's objections to guns.

MNS
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#81908 - 07/07/08 02:21 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Mattress]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

well, realisticly, I hope you're packing a Satphone and a real PLB as well - because those will
get you out of a lot more typical life threatening situations in the backcountry than a gun will.

At least my new ACER 406 is a little bit lighter than a M1911 <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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#81909 - 07/27/08 09:56 AM Re: scared now... [Re: chelsea9]
Dimitri Offline
member

Registered: 09/03/07
Posts: 85
Quote:
Just so you know, in backcountry you are in a close-quarter combat situation in which a knife is more effective than a firearm)


I wouldn't bet my life on this. A gun can be easy to use with a bit of range time. Using a knife in a hostile situation can make things from bad to worse.

A 38ACP pocket pistol will do its job at a distance. With a knife you need to be too close for comfort especially if you cannot physically stop a attacker without a knife, the knife is just a liability that will be used against you if the attacker can over power you weather or not you manage to slash him a couple times.

Just my 2 cents.

Dimitri

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#81910 - 07/27/08 11:12 AM Re: scared now... [Re: phat]
chaz Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Tennessee
If a person was going to assualt someone, wouldn't they be like, Oh! hi there, nice day. And then grab the person at the last minute? If you could get to a knife and not have it taken from you, you could go for vital areas. Some training first would be helpfull along with confidence.
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