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#81878 - 02/03/08 01:23 PM Re: 21 foot rule [Re: Jimshaw]
Ecrow Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/08
Posts: 85
Loc: N. New Mexico
Jim is right, There is very rarely a scenario where a gun is the best option against a person. (research the 21 foot rule, a study of professional gun users). I'm not a weirdo, but if I wanted to abduct a woman, I would just act as if I was running past her, punch her in the stomach and tackle her, and handcuff her. What defense is there against that? Maybe a friend. Could you really trust an animal, is it trained? Anytime someone is within four feet of you, you are vulnerable. Find a friend, that is the only way. Then you can motivate each other to keep a schedule. It's more fun with a friend anyhow!!

Ecrow
_________________________
Ecrow
Live to tell.

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#81879 - 02/06/08 06:30 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:
You're already in a panic before you even go out - I can tell you right now a gun isn't going to calm your nerves if you get approached by someone who makes you uncomfortable. Andrea


Sorry, got to totally disagree here. Under the circumstances discussed here, there is nothing more calming than a quality gun in the hands of someone that is familiar with it's use, which entails their knowing how to use it quickly, efficiently, and with dead on accuracy to either wound to solely incapacitate or to take a life by choice where needed. The throwing up and nerves come later, after the fact.

It took my gentle wife much consideration to come to the realization, that for her to continue living to care for her children, shooting an attacker would be necessary. I bought her a Smith & Wesson 38 Special 30 years ago. I trained her and she became proficient with the gun to a high degree of marksmanship. She never had to use it during all those years, but it was there and ready if she had needed it. She never flaunted the gun, and never intentionally allowed family or friends to know she carried it. She does not regret carrying a weapon all those years and has advised her friends to purchase a weapon. I respect her very much for doing what was necessary to take control over that area of her life where she was at the mercy of others. Brum
_________________________



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#81880 - 02/07/08 08:15 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Brumfield]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Well I'm going to have to disagree with Brumfield for the simple fact that everyone is different. I've seen guys throw up after shooting someone. I've seen guys act fine. I've seen guys who were kind of quiet and reserved for a few days, a week, a month and those who still aren't really the same. I know for me personally, and this is going to sound really screwed up I'm sure, it felt like the first time I killed a deer when I was 14. I was fine while doing it, nice and steady aim and knew exactly what I was doing, but I was shaking like crazy for a few minutes after words because of the adrenaline that I couldn't hold back any longer.

So, while some people might be willing to fire that gun, they may be way to scared and shaky to get a good enough shot to even consider pulling the trigger. And while some people might have calm nerves and have a nice steady aim, they may not have the nerve to fire. Training helps, but it isn't going to replicate what the situation is actually like. Everyone is different and thus require different types of defense sometimes. Guns don't always cut it.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#81881 - 02/09/08 07:19 AM Re: scared now... [Re: MattnID]
Brumfield Offline
member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Expat from New Orleans, now in...
Quote:


MattnAK wrote:
So, while some people might be willing to fire that gun, they may be way to scared and shaky to get a good enough shot to even consider pulling the trigger. And while some people might have calm nerves and have a nice steady aim, they may not have the nerve to fire. Training helps, but it isn't going to replicate what the situation is actually like. Everyone is different and thus require different types of defense sometimes. Guns don't always cut it.


I agree, it does depend on the person's background, training, and nerve. I've never shot anyone, and I can imagine, if I did, I would be extremely remorseful and throwing up would be guaranteed. I would weep for them if they died. What was the situation when you had to shoot your first person? Brum
_________________________



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#81882 - 02/09/08 11:53 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Brumfield]
MattnID Offline
member

Registered: 06/02/07
Posts: 317
Loc: Idaho
Iraq and I think I'll just leave it at that. Sorry about the vagueness, I just don't like going into that whole thing much if I can help it.
_________________________
In all things of nature there is something of the marvelous.-Aristotle

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#81883 - 02/09/08 04:23 PM Re: scared now... [Re: MattnID]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
I'm actually more worried that I'll get a case of appendicitis than bears or bad people in the backcountry <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You die without immediate medical attention from appendicitis <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> but you can utilize other means at your disposal for dealing with ornery 2 legged critters in the backcountry, as opposed to carrying the weight of a gun. I generally forgo the carrying of weapons on what to me is a pleasurable outing that I plan in advance <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for your Service MattAK, give me a PM if things get funky for you <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#81884 - 02/11/08 10:40 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Earthling]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
having had my appendix burst, I see where you are coming from. Luckily, I was at home and near a hospital. At least now I don't have to worry about it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#81885 - 02/11/08 05:23 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Earthling]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
I'm actually more worried that I'll get a case of appendicitis than bears or bad people in the backcountry <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> You die without immediate medical attention from appendicitis


If this is really worrying you, carry some strong antibiotics. From what I understand, it's almost always a bacterial problem both before and after it bursts. Talk to a doctor, explain you go on long hikes, perhaps he will have a lot to say and a prescription.

(edit) PS, I've read of some pretty hair-raising backwater surgeries with no anesthetic! Not something you can do to yourself, yikes... unfortunately.


Edited by Xelif (02/11/08 05:26 PM)
_________________________
- John

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#81886 - 02/11/08 06:29 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Xelif]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
You have to be pretty specific with antibiotics for a burst appy... you would use something different for other causes of infection, and it is hard to make a field diagnosis on what the cause of your abdominal pain is. Even with training it is hard to make a definitive diagnosis - and unfortunately there really isn't a good "broad spectrum" antibiotic that can be used to treat all causes of peritonitis. I don't know enough of the specifics, but IIRC, the antibiotic needed to treat for a perfed appy is contraindicated in the treatment of peritonitis from other causes (such as a perfed bowel). Maybe I'm wrong here, and if I am please correct me, but it really isn't as simple as just carrying a strong antibiotic to treat any infection that might come along. A hot appy is porbably one of the most common causes of right lower quadrant abdominal pain, but by no means is it the only one.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#81887 - 02/12/08 05:26 AM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
My sister had a problem with her appendix a few years ago, turned out to be mucinous cystadenoma. Antibiotics would not have been useful in her case. Treatment went well for her, looks like they caught it early. She still undergoes semi-annual CT scans.

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#81888 - 02/12/08 09:03 AM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:
You have to be pretty specific with antibiotics for a burst appy... you would use something different for other causes of infection, and it is hard to make a field diagnosis on what the cause of your abdominal pain is. Even with training it is hard to make a definitive diagnosis - and unfortunately there really isn't a good "broad spectrum" antibiotic that can be used to treat all causes of peritonitis.


Thanks for clarifying, MNS. I should know better, I even know in my head that abdominal pain is one of the more annoying problems to diagnose.
_________________________
- John

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#81889 - 02/12/08 12:33 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Quote:
You have to be pretty specific with antibiotics for a burst appy... you would use something different for other causes of infection, and it is hard to make a field diagnosis on what the cause of your abdominal pain is. Even with training it is hard to make a definitive diagnosis - and unfortunately there really isn't a good "broad spectrum" antibiotic that can be used to treat all causes of peritonitis. I don't know enough of the specifics, but IIRC, the antibiotic needed to treat for a perfed appy is contraindicated in the treatment of peritonitis from other causes (such as a perfed bowel). Maybe I'm wrong here, and if I am please correct me, but it really isn't as simple as just carrying a strong antibiotic to treat any infection that might come along. A hot appy is porbably one of the most common causes of right lower quadrant abdominal pain, but by no means is it the only one.

MNS


Felix/Xelif, no one knows how well versed in medicine you are/are not, and so it's presumptive of you to be giving medical advice such as you did IMO. I don't see MD after your name <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

A burst appendix CANNOT be 'cured' with antibiotics; AND, there is no way a layman in the backcountry who has limited first aid knowledge is going to think, "Hmm?, that's your appendix, let me get out some antibiotics and it'll cure ya'' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Generally appendicitis strikes in such a fashion that it does not announce itself until the moment of doom <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> then you need suregry, which I'd rather not have in the field. Hence my chocie of wrestling with a bear vs getting an appendicitis attack in the woods. Apparently you're going to be ok with your little first aid kit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#81890 - 02/12/08 04:07 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Earthling]
Xelif Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 241
Loc: Bay Area, California, USA
Quote:

A burst appendix CANNOT be 'cured' with antibiotics; AND, there is no way a layman in the backcountry who has limited first aid knowledge is going to think, "Hmm?, that's your appendix, let me get out some antibiotics and it'll cure ya'' <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Generally appendicitis strikes in such a fashion that it does not announce itself until the moment of doom <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> then you need suregry, which I'd rather not have in the field. Hence my chocie of wrestling with a bear vs getting an appendicitis attack in the woods. Apparently you're going to be ok with your little first aid kit <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Earthling, I was NOT giving medical advice, I meant to offer a clearly unprofessional opinion that, in the backcountry, antibiotics might be the line between the bacteria and caustic, toxic stew of death overwhelming you in HOURS as opposed to a -day-.

I certainly was not trying to suggest that a course of general antibiotics and 'poof' you're cured of one of the most life-threatening conditions humans suffer from.

I also said please talk to a doctor before just tossing some antibiotics in your pack and deciding it's fine.

Thank you for your opinion on my first aid kit.

For that matter, medical opinions are offered constantly on this forum, but I'm sorry I suggested a fundamentally erroneous approach along with merely a weak caveat. I am often writing too much or too little, this time was most certainly too little and better said nothing.


Edited by Xelif (02/12/08 04:16 PM)

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#81891 - 02/12/08 06:32 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Xelif]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Ok, y'all... take two steps back, take a deep breath and smile... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You can't buy antibiotics over the counter, so no harm, no foul... it is a good idea to carry antibiotics in your first aid kit if you're going to be deep back country (strep throat is a good example of an easily treated infection that could go disasterously wrong if untreated, and fairly easy to 'self diagnose' if you've had strep before), so the advice is well intentioned but easily managed because you have to go through a licensed physician to get your supply (and they will tell you what you should and should not use your prescription for)...

I would say that probably 1/3 to 1/2 of the medevac transports I do involve some form of abdominal pain, frequently with good evidence that the pain is a hot appy. Sometimes we go to a great deal of expense to bring in someone who is just having a bad attack of gas. That is how seriously abdominal pain is taken in rural environments. If there is even a chance that someone might have an infected appendix, the rural docs will send them in, because they don't have the facilities to operate. Once the appy has perfed, the damage is done... you know your patient is going to be in the hospital for a while, dealing with peritonitis, and if you don't get the IV antibiotics in them fast enough, possibly septicemia. There are so many organs located in the peritoneum (abdominal cavity), and infection there can have very serious ramifications.

Anyway, Earthling, Xelif... back to your corners... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Peace,
MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#81892 - 02/12/08 07:06 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
EricKingston Offline
member

Registered: 11/01/02
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan
Wow, talk about topic drift - from assault to antibiotics. Speaking of, I'd love to keep some Vancomycin and an IV kit in my pack if anyone has a some to spare!

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#81893 - 02/12/08 07:32 PM Re: scared now... [Re: EricKingston]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
I have several IV start kits, catheters and saline locks in my kit, but I also have the card that says I'm allowed to use them <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I don't carry IV fluids (although my IV kit is a compression fanny pack designed for 1L bladders with hose), but you can't underestimate the importance of getting a catheter into a vein in someone going into shock (internal bleeding or severe dehydration) sooner rather than later (can you say femoral line or central line? Not a 'field' application for sure). But youse gots to have the trainings and the 'authority' to use them (I carry them in my rescue kit and I have a medical director that allows me to use my training in the field). I've yet to use my IV skills in the field, and even if I did, the most I could do via IV would be to give d50 or plain old saline... no IV antibiotics...

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#81894 - 02/12/08 08:13 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
What is the shelf life of most oral antibiotics? Anyone thinking of adding them to their first aid kit should bear in mind they will need to be replaced from time to time.

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#81895 - 02/12/08 08:28 PM Re: scared now... [Re: Paddy_Crow]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
Most drugs, properly stored, are good well beyond their expiration dates. However, I'd ask a pharmacist about a specific prescription drug as they would have a better understanding of the drugs that change chemically over time (lost potency is less of an issue than actual changes at the chmical level, which some drugs will do).

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#81896 - 02/12/08 08:34 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
EricKingston Offline
member

Registered: 11/01/02
Posts: 272
Loc: Michigan
Oh well... I'll just have to stick with Z-packs and stay away from any superbugs while in the backcountry. Although, you're lucky to have those IV setups on hand. I hear they do wonders for hangovers!

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#81897 - 02/13/08 09:52 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
cowboy Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/13/08
Posts: 7
my mom hates me wilderness camping alone she hates it even more cuase i carry a 9mm with hollow points when i go but she understands we lost my brother back in 99 due to suside so i understand my moms fears but she suports me she just dont wanna loose me

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#81898 - 02/13/08 01:57 PM Re: scared now... [Re: midnightsun03]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
MNS well put, and I recognize that certain medicines are not shelf stable in the outdoors due to fluctuating temperatures in and out of a pack for weeks at a time.

Felix, I was merely trying to prevent a lurking newbie from running off with your posted info thinking it would all be ok because they carried 'the cure' when someone in their camp came down with appendicitis. It's a serious matter, more so than most in the outdoors as rescue/medical help is usually very difficult to get in a timely fashion.

I think folks who are medically qualified to give info do so at the risk of knowing they are posting in a public forum and the liabilities thereof. You may be qualified but giving 'answers' to such grave issues is not to be taken lightly.

Like Andi said, once your appy perfs' it's the hospital or certain death in due course without appropriate medical treatment, ie, surgery. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#81899 - 02/15/08 07:26 PM Re: scared now... [Re: cowboy]
cheap Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 46
That is really tragic.
<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Huh?

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#81900 - 03/10/08 04:54 AM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
You're all right. I'm looking for a quick, "wonder solution" where there isn't one. Rest assured folks, you wouldn't have ever found me cowering down a trail gun drawn and shaking. I guess that's the one problem with forums - one is only left to make assumptions(sp?) when so little info is given and I've probably given off the total wrong perception. I understand confidence, the importance of preparedness and the advantage of self defense. I have four years of isshinryu behind me so the self defense knowlege is there. It's just something I'll have to get over on my own...Thanks for all your help...
Perhaps carrying a single hiking staff and practice some form of bo kata with it might be enough to restore your confidence. I agree that we shouldn't be too dependant on tools as quick fixes, but if the skills and knowledge are already there then just the right tool might be useful. Fear is irrational, but if a big stick helps you sleep at night, I say carry it. I heard some eastern coyotes when out on a morning hike a month ago, grabbed a big stick. Silly thing to do but I felt a whole lot better. The coyotes were long gone before I got out of the woods to see them. Perhaps if I carry a big stick next time I might be quicker with the camera. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

p.s. My big stick idea might help with bears also, assuming I got attached to hiking with one all the time. The hiking staff that is, not the bear. Black bears aren't a real concern here, they are very shy and so they smell me but I never see them. I don't think it would be a good idea to use it on the bear if ever had the privilege to meet one, but a big stick might help me keep my composure, and maybe save me a pair of underwear. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#81901 - 03/14/08 07:19 PM Re: scared now... [Re: trippypaws]
Cattledogpushy Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 1
Get an Australian Cattle Dog. Super durable dog that is extremely protective of it's owner. Can be vicious & will fight or sacrifice its life in defense of it's owner if neccessary.

They can be a little difficult to deal with at first, they require a lot of exercise & attention, but once they bond with you they're yours for life. A lot more responsibility than a firearm (you don't have to worry about a firearm attacking someone while your at work), they are a lifetime commitment but if you want to make a commitment they're very reassuring in the backcountry.

PJ

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#81902 - 03/28/08 07:27 AM Re: scared now... [Re: Cattledogpushy]
Tenderfoot Offline
newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Garland, TX
As I understand it if you really want to rely on your dog for protection you might want to have it trained for that otherwise you might be disappointed.

If you have ever watched an episode of "It Takes A Thief" they have actually stolen dogs when robbing a house. More often than not the dog goes of his own choosing.

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