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#77921 - 08/12/07 07:14 PM New MSR Filter
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
I've had the awesome opportunity to be part of two new MSR filters that I believe will rock the outdoor world. I'm not posting this to promote them, but to share with fellow gear heads a couple of incredible contraptions.

The new filter, called the MSR HyperFlow, has some amazing attributes. For one it is only 7.8 oz., will pump at an incredible 3-3.5 liters per minute (I was able to pump a liter in 20 seconds!), and is field maintainable. It uses a Hollow Fiber material (used for several years in the medical field) and will filter down to 0.2 microns.

There will also be a new gravity-filter called the AutoFlow. This filter uses the same Hollow Fibers, is also field maintainable, and will filter 1.5 liters per minute through gravity only. The inline filter will be sold separately giving anyone the opportunity to create a super light gravity filter. It can also be used as an inline filter for hydration. I witnessed it in use on the Colorado River and watched as it filtered 4 liters of water in about 3 minutes. I also drank several gulps with no after effects (the water was completely clear). When you see it, you may never pump again. The system (Dromlite bag, hose, filter, and bottle adapter) weighs in at 10.5 oz.

There are a couple of items that need to be known. The Hollow Fibers can fracture if frozen and could possibly break if dropped (care needs to be taken similar to a ceramic filter element). The filter will have a capacity around 1000 liters (260 gallons) before it needs to be replaced. It will retail for about $100 for the HyperFlow and $80 for the AutoFlow.

Both filters will be available around May 2008. Pretty cool!

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#77922 - 08/13/07 06:30 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
Jason,
The weight vs pump rate looks excellent. And the price is good too <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Since the filters claim 0.2micron filtering, would you be able to do the food coloring test? Put 2-4 drops of dark food coloring in 1qt of water. Filter; then see if the filtered water comes out clear (on both filters).

If this test works, then this is also a good method to see if one has accidentally cracked his filter.

Thanx,
-Barry

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#77923 - 08/13/07 11:08 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Will the Hyperflow include the highly functional design features of the Miniworks: the cap that closes off the outlet, to limit the possibility of contamination, and the solid connection to a water bottle? If so, will the connection still fit only the Nalgene widemouth bottle, or will it be able to connect to other types of bottles.

Also, in the interest of full disclosure, does your frequent use of "we" indicate that you work for MSR? (It doesn't matter if you do; your post did exactly what you said you wanted to do: just make us aware that something new is coming as soon as they get the bugs worked out.

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#77924 - 08/13/07 12:36 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Glenn]
Keith Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 1664
Loc: Michigan's Upper Peninsula
>"Also, in the interest of full disclosure, does your frequent use of "we" indicate that you work for MSR? "

I believe he has stated so before. If you click on his name, it indicated he is in sales for Cascade Designs.
_________________________
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#77925 - 08/13/07 03:36 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
90RunnerRed Offline
newbie

Registered: 07/29/07
Posts: 4
Loc: Colorado
Are they still going to produce the Miniworks?

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#77926 - 08/13/07 04:52 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: BarryP]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
I will be going back home this weekend from a couple of shows and will post the results once I get the chance to perform this test.
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#77927 - 08/13/07 05:01 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Glenn]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
The pump will come with a special "cap" that will fit on either a Nalgene bottle or our Drombags (wide-mouth). The filter will lock on to this cap allowing the user to use it as a handle for pumping. This cap does require that you use something with the Nalgene size wide-mouth threads in order to use it similar to the Miniworks. The filter has the ability filter directly into a resevoir (Camelbak, Platypus, etc.) by taking off the bite valve and inserting the hose directly on the outlet which will press fit on similar to the inlet hose. The user can also cut off a section of the inlet hose to be used as an outlet hose by press fitting it on the same way as the hydration hose (hope that made sense). In this way other bottles can be used.

One of the things I try to avoid is promoting Cascade Designs on this website because I am a rep for them. I love coming on here and hearing about others experiences with their gear as well as learn about what is new in the lightweight market. I am passionate about the outdoors and gear and love to talk about it. I guess you can say I love my job:).
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#77928 - 08/13/07 05:31 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Keith]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I never thought about it being listed in his profile - good catch! (One reason I asked was I thought I remembered him mentioning it before, too.) I don't have a problem with him being associated with MSR - his post in no way appeared to be a promo for their product. It came across exactly as he said: here's some heads-up news about a product that could really be of interest to everyone; stay tuned.

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#77929 - 08/13/07 05:38 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Thanks, Jason - sounds like, as usual, MSR has thought things through before bringing something to market. As I've often told my Scouts and others wanting gear advice, you really can't go wrong with MSR. It may not be the lightest, and they won't always be the first to do something - but when they do it, they do it right.

Although I'm currently trying to lower my pack weight by 4 pounds, I'm not yet certain I'll end up abandoning my trusted mainline gear: Hubba, Miniworks, Pocket Rocket, Titan kettle, and Thermarest. While 20 pounds, total, for a weeklong trip is a great target, the 24 I was carrying certainly wasn't burdensome, and I haven't yet found anything quite as convenient, comfortable, or reliable as the MSR gear.

It is awfully nice to have a job you really love, isn't it?

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#77930 - 08/13/07 09:59 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: 90RunnerRed]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
We are going to continue with the Miniworks because it is still the most thorough of any filter in creating the best quality of water from a microfilter pump. The new HyperFlow doesn't contain a carbon component which means that it won't take out contaminates (pestisides, etc.) and any bad tastes in the water. The Miniworks is the best on the market in this regard and the ceramic/carbon combo is incredibly able in removing the bad stuff in even the worst water. Even though the HyperFlow is completely capable according to all of the tests that have been peformed, the Miniworks beats it in sheer quality of water performance. They are both rated at filter down to 0.2 microns, but the fact the Miniworks is a depth filter, meaning it requires the water to travel through about an inch of ceramic and carbon makes it more thorough (this does not mean that it will take out viruses, but is able to tackle more stuff in the water like contaminates). This only should be a concern if you are filtering out of standing water that is obviously rank with microbes (not including virus' which no mechanical filter will remove; they need a chemical component) similar to a sewer pond, often found in third world countries. If you do run into this water with a HyperFlow, the user may need to filter it twice.

We will also be selling the SweetWater as well for the same reason, but at a lower price than the Miniworks. However, the Sweetwater, though also producing a better quality of water than the HyperFlow based on the carbon component, doesn't have the longevity of the MiniWorks. As I stated above, all of the MSR filters have been tested both in the field and the lab for years before they enter the market. We have been working and testing the Hollow Fiber technology for about 5 years.

My recommendation is buy the HyperFlow if speed and weight is the issue, but if quality of water and/or emergency water concerns are the main factor, then the Miniworks is the best choice followed closely by the Sweetwater (based on longevity, not performance). There should be no concern about getting sick when filtering in the backcountry in North America with any of the MSR filters. If you do travel where the water may be more contaminated (Mexico, Taiwan, Africa, etc.) we recommend taking a chemical option like the MIOX.

At the end of this year, the WaterWorks EX will be discontinued.


Edited by jasonlivy (03/26/08 04:18 PM)
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#77931 - 08/28/07 10:32 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
bump

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#77932 - 08/28/07 10:45 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: BarryP]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Sorry for my ignorance, but what does "bump" mean?
_________________________
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#77933 - 08/28/07 12:24 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
Jason:

As you know, posts are listed by date and so they sink lower as they age. One way to counteract this is to post a new but "empty" response -- and "bump" the post up to the top again.

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#77934 - 08/28/07 05:27 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
azcanyon Offline
member

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 264
[see, this bump thing works...]

Jason,

Thanks for the description of new products. Regarding the AutoFlow used as a gravity filter...Do you have any experience with the Katadyn Base Camp filter? ( Katadyn website, REI description).

It sounds like the AutoFlow may filter a little faster, but to be honest, I don't know how much that matters with this type of filter.

I don't own the Base Camp yet, but I'm in the market for a group filtration setup for a canoe trip next year.

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#77935 - 08/29/07 01:42 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Ben2World]
frediver Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 114
I am now using a sawyer hollow core fiber filter and it works great. I have one big complaint, the lack of a pre-filter to catch the big globs. Back flushing is also not as easy as it sounds. All that said this is a much better filter technology.
I hope MSR will make a decent pre-filet for this unit, even better a pre-filter that will work with any filter !

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#77936 - 08/29/07 08:55 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: frediver]
Ben2World Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 1754
Loc: So Cal
You can splice this in between.

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#77937 - 08/29/07 10:11 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: azcanyon]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Thanks for the description of new products. Regarding the AutoFlow used as a gravity filter...Do you have any experience with the Katadyn Base Camp filter? ( Katadyn website, REI description).

It sounds like the AutoFlow may filter a little faster, but to be honest, I don't know how much that matters with this type of filter.
I'm a fan of the bump! To answer your question, I haven't used the Base Camp Filter. I have seen it work and understand that it filters 0.5 liters per minute. I also know that it can't be cleaned in the field and is heavier (17 oz. compared to 10.5 oz for the Autoflow).

The great thing with the AutoFlow is that it is well thought out. I have always been either a pump or a chemical user because I felt the complication and wait time of a gravity fed filter just wasn't that intriguing to me. However, after using the AutoFlow system I am convinced this is my new method of treating water. That fact that it can filter at 1.75 liters per minute and that it is light and packable makes it almost too good to be true.

To answer frediver's inquiry about the prefilter: one of the great things about MSR, in my opinion, is that they really engineer a solid product right out of the gate. MSR has had this technology for as long if not longer than Sawyer, but chose to take their time in creating a world-class product based around the Hollow Fiber Technology. We have found that companies that rush product to market miss the boat an many key elements. In this case the prefilter. MSR uses a prefilter similar to their pumps (70ish microns) to make sure sediment doesn't effect the life of the filter. MSR has also created a bag that allows much of the big chunks to settle in a "pocket" so, after the bag is emptied, the dirt is collected on the bottom of the bag. Sediment is not a problem with the AutoFlow.

The other really huge benefit to the new Hollow Fiber is that it can be cleaned by backflushing. I haven't played with the Swayer product at all so I don't know how easy or difficult it is to backflush, but the MSR is super easy. All that the user needs to do is reverse the flow by holding up the bottle of water higher than the reseviors for a few minutes while the clean water goes back through the filter. My experience has been one of amazement as I can see the dirt be cleaned out of the filter almost instantaneously. This allows for more longevity and better performance. Both the MSR AutoFlow, HyperFlow, and the Platypus ClearStream are truly innovative and revolutionary water treatment products for the backcountry which will elevate the standards of field performance.


Edited by jasonlivy (03/26/08 04:21 PM)
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#77938 - 08/29/07 10:28 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“I will be going back home this weekend from a couple of shows and will post the results once I get the chance to perform this test.”

Well, I bumped because I was wondering if you had a chance to perform this test?
Thanx,
-Barry

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#77939 - 08/29/07 12:33 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: BarryP]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Thanks for the reminder. It's been a crazy week here and I haven't had the chance. I will try to get it done this week.
_________________________
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#77940 - 08/29/07 06:27 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
jasonklass Offline
member

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 551
Loc: Denver, Colorado
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#77941 - 08/31/07 01:51 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
frediver Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 114
That sounds like a decent prefilter.
The filter featured in the REI link is not quite as user friendly as it might appear and be aware the pads required to keep this filter working are not cheap either.
Perhaps a better idea would be to have a hollow filter body with a S.S. screen for each end. In the open space between you could install various types of pre-filter media. The options could be Aquarium Fluff for the sediment or even Charcoal to reduce a nasty chemical taste. The main idea is to make the pre-filter user friendly as well as the main filter.

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#77942 - 09/28/07 09:34 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: frediver]
tchiker Offline
member

Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 162
Loc: Atlanta, GA, USA
I read somewhere that this new MSR filter will just be for "3 season" use and if it gets frozen somehow, it becomes seriously damaged. This sounds like a drawback, but I wonder how the other filters like Katadyn perform in freezing conditions too?

I'm in the market for a water filter and it's tough deciding between all the competing brands and technologies.

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#77943 - 03/08/08 08:08 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
ndsol Offline
member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, Texas
Has anyone purchased one of these filters yet? I like the ease of the gravity filter and how quick and few strokes it takes with the other. And the weight isn't bad either.

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#77944 - 03/10/08 09:20 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
I am very interested in the Hyperflow, and was wondering when somebody was going to post about it. The one quesiton I have that was mentioned by another poster is that I have read this thing is not good below freezing, and the the filter element can break if frozen. So is it basically a "warm weather" filter, or can it be used in the cold (i.e. can it be left sitting aroung in temperatures below freezing without the filter element being damaged)?

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#77945 - 03/10/08 12:47 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Berserker]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
Trailspace had a review on the Hyperflow which is the most comprehensive one I've found so far

http://www.trailspace.com/news/2008/01/16/msr-hyperflow.html

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#77946 - 03/22/08 07:36 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: ndsol]
ndsol Offline
member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, Texas
I went to REI to see about this, but they didn't have it in and so I tried then to order it as it was in their catalog. However, they couldn't get the computer to accept it even on backorder. Since I wanted to use my 20% coupon for it, she gave me a note for future use of it.

So who knows when it will make it on the shelves.

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#77947 - 03/22/08 07:53 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: ndsol]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

MEC's got 'em, but they only ship em within canada.

I just can't see myself buying something that dies if it freezes! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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#77948 - 03/23/08 12:06 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: phat]
frediver Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 114
Are these going to have a decent user serviceable pre-filter, preferably something that does not require a proprietary pre-filter element?

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#77949 - 03/23/08 06:51 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: ndsol]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I went to REI to see about this, but they didn't have it in and so I tried then to order it as it was in their catalog. However, they couldn't get the computer to accept it even on backorder. Since I wanted to use my 20% coupon for it, she gave me a note for future use of it.

So who knows when it will make it on the shelves.
Because of supplier issues, we are looking towards early May delivery.

MSR is dedicated to making sure it works 100% as claimed. If it doesn't, it isn't released. When you do finally get one, it will be good to know it works as well as the hype it's gotten. I'll tell you it will be worth the wait.
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#77950 - 03/23/08 07:17 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: phat]
ndsol Offline
member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, Texas
Quote:

MEC's got 'em, but they only ship em within canada.

Looks like on backorder at MEC as well.

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#77951 - 03/26/08 12:34 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Aviprk]
jackb Offline
member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 21
According to the Trailspace review, the real weight of the filter comes in around 11oz. If the filter is susceptible to freezing and damage from dropping, and if it does, in fact, weigh 11 oz., and if it costs $100, then the only advantage that it has over the Pur Hiker is that it pumps faster. A Hiker can be had for $60, weighs 11 oz. and is not susceptible to freezing and dropping, so why would anyone spend the $100?

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#77952 - 03/26/08 02:03 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jackb]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
According to the Trailspace review, the real weight of the filter comes in around 11oz. If the filter is susceptible to freezing and damage from dropping, and if it does, in fact, weigh 11 oz., and if it costs $100, then the only advantage that it has over the Pur Hiker is that it pumps faster. A Hiker can be had for $60, weighs 11 oz. and is not susceptible to freezing and dropping, so why would anyone spend the $100?
Trailspace is weighing the bag, cap, and filter. The weight quoted on msrgear.com is just the filter. This is the same for the Hiker. In fact, after having weighed the Hiker on my digital scale, the weight they quote on their box doesn't include the hose or prefilter. The actual weight is around 15oz. for the Hiker.

The fact that it is 3 times faster and that it can be field maintained (ie. cleaned) in the field are definite advantages. It is also rated to pump more water per filter life (1000L for the HyperFlow vs. 750L for the Hiker). The other thing I really like about the HyperFlow is that it is so compact. The Hiker is also, but does not pack together as well, especially with the ungainly hoses. The HyperFlow has a unique prefilter which also serves as a 'hose-holder'. Once your finished you simply wrap up the hose around the filter and secure it using the velcro straps on the prefilter. It is easy and super slick. The way it attaches to either a wide-mouth (64mm) bottle or a Drom or Dromlite bag is also much better designed. There are many details that are not explained just by looking at the basic specs of both filters. It's a cool little filter that introduces a brand new technology to the water filter fray. This is always a good thing <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.


Edited by jasonlivy (03/26/08 04:24 PM)

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#77953 - 03/27/08 09:26 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Well, not to start an argument here, but I also have a Hiker and I just recently weighed it at slightly over 13 oz with just about everything included. So you could probably get in the sub 12 oz range if you just take the filter and hoses along.

You also never addressed the cold issue that has been mentioned in multiple posts in this thread. Is that just a fact that it is susceptible to damage in freezing temperatures due to the technology, or can this thing in fact be used in freezing temperatures?

I myslef was gung ho to drop the cash on one, but as I read more it seems as though the only advantage of this filter over the Hiker is the speed. That's really not enough to make me want to get one. Not being a water treatment specialist I am also concerned about what others have posted discussing the issues of things like chemicals getting through this type of filter technology. Yeah I know, it probably isn't a big deal here in the backcountry of the US, but it's still something to consider.

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#77954 - 04/03/08 01:26 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Berserker]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I myslef was gung ho to drop the cash on one, but as I read more it seems as though the only advantage of this filter over the Hiker is the speed.
Out in the West, field maintainablility (ie. the ability to clean the fliter element in the field when clogged) is pretty important. Perhaps in the eastern US it isn't as big a deal. I won't get into an argument about filter weights, and I'm happy you like your Hiker <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I will just say that even if the weight is 13 oz., the HyperFlow is 5.5 oz. lighter. For the lightweight zealots, saving almost 6 oz on one piece of gear is significant. It may not be to you.

Taking the chemicals out of the water are akin to removing viruses in my opinion (speaking for myself and not Cascade Designs here). Though important (MiniWorks EX is the best at this), the question is how much of a threat is it in the backcountry? If this is important to you, then the HyperFlow (which doesn't have a carbon component in the fliter element) may not be your filter.

Before casting judgement on this filter, I would check one out (they will be in stores very soon). On paper it is impressive, but up close and personal it is even better. The HyperFlow is a huge step forward for backcountry filter technology and will be a serious contender in the marketplace. There are many who are very satisfied with their current water treatment solution which is great. I, for one, am switching to the HyperFlow or maybe even the AutoFlow (gravity fed filter, just over 10 oz., filters at 1.75L per minute WITHOUT have to pump(!), also field maintainable). Personally, I've filtered water directly from the Colorado River and have been very satisfied in the quality of water produced by the AutoFlow (used one briefly that was an early prototype approved for backcountry use. My current sample is not).

There really is nothing more that can be said than what I've said already. If having one of the lightest weight water filters on the market; pumping at 3 to 3.5L per min; and being able to clean the filter element in the field which will significantly improve performance doesn't meet your needs or worth the upgrade, then I would stick to what your using currently.
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#77955 - 04/03/08 04:04 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Jason , there is one more thing.

In looking at that video of the Hyperflow linked in your original post, I noticed that the intake hose is not connected to the filter body or cylinder, but to the pump itself -- to the thing that is going in-&-out-&-in-&-out.

It's tugging at the hose and that's causing the pre-filter or intake end to be jumping around, which in the field would be causing it to hop around on the bottom or up to the top, stirring up sediment or even sucking air.

On Katadyn/PUR filters, the intake hose is on the the filter cylinder, which can be rested on a rock while you pump the handle up and down. One of my main concerns when water-wanking at the stream is to keep that hose STEADY to keep from stirring up the bottom. My PUR Guide even had a rubber bottom that it rested on to help steady it.

With the Hyperflow, MSR does seem to have addressed the problems of the old antique-pitcher-pump style filters like the Sweetwater and the Miniworks with the new bicycle-tire style pump. Those "pitcher-pumps" tended to give out at the hinge on the pump handle. That part on my old Sweetwater literally crumbled while I was pumping streamside & in mid-hike years ago, which is why I switched to a PUR Guide that's now no longer sold.

I've been looking for a replacement for that old Guide that recently gave up the ghost and I've been searching the many posts on the subject on the forum. The Hyperflow looks promising, but this hose-on-the-pump thing has me concerned. Any thoughts on that?
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#77956 - 04/03/08 04:10 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
azcanyon Offline
member

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 264
Quote:
I will just say that even if the weight [of the Katadyn Hiker] is 13 oz., the HyperFlow is 5.5 oz. lighter. For the lightweight zealots, saving almost 6 oz on one piece of gear is significant.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> As you know (since you just said so last week), the 7.5 ounce figure for the Hyperflow is only for the filter itself, not for some of the essential things you would need to operate it in the field.

Fresh off my scale: the Hiker filter cartridge, filter body, two hoses, prefilter, and fitting for Nalgene/MSR openings weighs 349 grams or 12.3 ounces. If the required stuff for the Hyperflow is indeed around 11 ounces or even less, then that's certainly lighter, perhaps significantly so. But it isn't six ounces. Apples to apples, please.

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#77957 - 04/03/08 09:18 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: kevonionia]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
That intake does seem to swim around - and that's with the hose relaxed (note the coils in the water.) It's also in a very still sink of water. Makes you wonder what would happen with the hose fully extended - as mine often was when perched on a rock or log (or one foot on each), trying not to fall in - and the moving water in the stream constantly shifting it anyhow. However, there might be a fairly simple fix.

A couple of years ago, I started carrying a Granite Gear Slurpin bowl (size medium) to use with my Miniworks filter. The filter stores inside the bowl, which replaces the stuff sack, so I had little or no weight gain (an ounce, at most.) I added the bowl to make life easier: instead of perching precariously on a rock or log, trying to keep the inlet from drifting out of place, I simply dip a bowl of water and carry it to a comfortable log or rock and sit while I filter. I usually let it stand for a minute, to settle. The relatively small diameter of the bowl will minimize any movement of the intake, and the bowl is deep enough that I can keep the outlet out of what little sediment does settle out.

By the way, I've never been impressed enough with the Sweetwater's sturdiness in the store to give it a try in the field; the handle assembly just plain looks flimsy to me. However, I've used a Miniworks happily for years (recreationally, not thru-hiking - anywhere from 10 - 30 days a year) without anything ever going wrong - the pump handle shows no signs of stress at all. Before the Miniworks came out, I used most of the PUR models, including the Hiker and Explorer (I think that was the name - looked like a bicycle pump), with my Scout troop; every handle on every model broke within a year - a couple on the second weekend. They also clogged remarkably fast, and since the elements were not field cleanable, this meant we had to always carry an spare element - something I've never needed to do with the Miniworks. So, for true apples-to-apples, I think you have to add the weight of the spare element to the Hiker. (In the end, any decent filter is going to put a pound or so into your pack, by the time you count everything. The only truly light filter I've ever tried is the Katadyn Mini, also field cleanable, but its flow rate is so slow I don't put it in the "decent" category.)

Now, having said all this, I've not seen anything about the Hyperflow that gets me excited enough to even consider replacing my Miniworks. The Hyperflow doesn't seem to offer much weight savings, and the bottle adapter seems a lot more fiddly than the attachment method of the Miniworks. The idea of backflushing may make it field cleanable, but it looks like a lot more hassle than just taking the element out of the Miniworks for a quick scrub. No "wow" factor at all, at least not yet.

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#77958 - 04/04/08 06:09 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Glenn]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Glenn:

Thanks for that tip, a great solution; I'm going to check into that bowl. I tried the "remote filtering" thing two summers ago with a gallon ziplock baggy -- worked great, it even preheated the leftover unfiltered water when placed in the sun for later cooking -- but it required someone to hold the bag and another to pump, making it suddenly a two-person job. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> On the third day it got poked by a twig and developed a hole, so I put that idea away -- until now.

Good to know the Miniworks' handle is a lot sturdier -- I'd probably be using it less than you do, too, so it's a contender in the search.
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#77959 - 04/04/08 08:40 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: azcanyon]
jackb Offline
member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 21
Facts are verifiable. So, does anyone out there have both the Hiker and the new MSR filter? If so, please weigh them on a reliable scale and report the result. Then all of us will know which filter is the lightest and by how much.

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#77960 - 04/04/08 09:48 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Well, azcanyon already pointed out what I was referring to in the weights where the actual weight of Hyperflow is being reported around 11 oz with all the needed items to actually use it in the field. That was the only point I was trying to make in the difference in weights between the Hiker and Hyperflow. It appears to be maybe closer to a 2 oz difference. As jackb said it would be nice if someone could weigh both of them.

I wasn't trying to cast judgement on the filter (although it may have come off that way), I was just trying to get a better understanding of it. I just like trying out different gear, and whether or not I like my Hiker there is always room in the rotation for another filter. Unfortunately my opportunity has passed as I was going to use my REI 20% off one item coupon and it has expired. Well, maybe I'll consider it again when I get another coupon.

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#77961 - 04/04/08 09:51 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Glenn]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1347
Loc: Seattle, WA
I use a similar strategy to your bowl method.

I carry two half gallon gator-aid bottles. One labeled clean and the other labeled dirty. I scoop up the water with the dirty bottle and then filter it into the clean bottle at my leisure.

I often camp where there is no water. I do so to get away from people. Dry camps are less used than camps near rivers and streams. The two bottle system allows me to carry a gallon of water to my campsite. I filter one bottles worth, scoop up another 2 quarts of dirty water and head for camp.

The two bottle system has also paid dividends in bad weather. I can quickly grab two quarts of dirty water on the way to camp and then filter it in the comfort of my tent.

I have a large pack so carrying two bottles is no problem for me. I sometimes even use a gallon bottle for the dirty water.

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#77962 - 04/04/08 10:27 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: DJ2]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I do a lot of dry camping, too, for pretty much the same reasons. I usually filter into a 2-quart Dromlite. (The Dromlite, filled with water or inflated with air, or combination of both, makes a dandy pillow.)

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#77963 - 04/04/08 07:58 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: azcanyon]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Quote:
I will just say that even if the weight [of the Katadyn Hiker] is 13 oz., the HyperFlow is 5.5 oz. lighter. For the lightweight zealots, saving almost 6 oz on one piece of gear is significant.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> As you know (since you just said so last week), the 7.5 ounce figure for the Hyperflow is only for the filter itself, not for some of the essential things you would need to operate it in the field.

Fresh off my scale: the Hiker filter cartridge, filter body, two hoses, prefilter, and fitting for Nalgene/MSR openings weighs 349 grams or 12.3 ounces. If the required stuff for the Hyperflow is indeed around 11 ounces or even less, then that's certainly lighter, perhaps significantly so. But it isn't six ounces. Apples to apples, please.
Unfortunately I'm away from my digital scale, but when I get home I'll take out my Hiker and my new production HyperFlow filter (which hopefully is waiting for me at home) and weigh them. I'm as interested as anyone and am taking Cascade Designs at their word that the weight is really the pump, hose, and prefilter. I promise that I will give you the exact weight that I get on the HyperFlow and the Hiker and be as fair as is possible. If the HyperFlow does come in at 11oz. or more and the Hiker is 12.3 oz. then I will correct my past posts. I hate it when companies use weight as a marketing tool. There isn't a "minimum" weight for pumps. Either you carry the pump, hoses and prefilter, or you don't really have a filter.
_________________________
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#77964 - 04/04/08 08:05 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: kevonionia]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
It's tugging at the hose and that's causing the pre-filter or intake end to be jumping around, which in the field would be causing it to hop around on the bottom or up to the top, stirring up sediment or even sucking air.
This is the first I'm hearing about this. I can see how it would cause a concern. My own personal experience has not resulted in me noticing this when demonstrating it in clinics. I think it takes a little getting used to just like any new piece of gear. One thing I have noticed is that the prefilter doesn't need to be fully submersed in order for it to work. The hose is also pretty long and the velcro attachment can be used to anchor down the prefilter.

I haven't used a production unit in the field (I've been using a prototype that hasn't been approved to be used in the backcountry) yet and as soon as I do I'll let you know if it is an annoyance.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#77965 - 04/04/08 08:06 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
Thanks Jason. Look forward to your post back.

If I can increase the pump rate and drop 1/2 pound from my Miniworks, I will be extremely happy.

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#77966 - 04/04/08 08:06 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I've got an old Pur version of the Hiker, it tipped my scales at 15.4 ounces including stuff sack.

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#77967 - 04/04/08 11:47 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6371
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I can't see where the MSR AutoFlow is much of an improvement on the ULA Amigo Pro, 7.5 oz. and $45. It's both pricier and heavier, and only a little faster.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#77968 - 04/07/08 01:49 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: OregonMouse]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I can't see where the MSR AutoFlow is much of an improvement on the ULA Amigo Pro, 7.5 oz. and $45. It's both pricier and heavier, and only a little faster.
I don't know anything about this filter. I think the best attribute to this filter is the price and weight. One major disadvantage to the ULA's filter is that it's not field cleanable.

I'm confident the AutoFlow will filter at twice the speed as this one based on the fact that the Hiker is rated at about 1L per minute pumping, not through gravity feed. Again, not having used this filter, I'm only guessing. Anyone have any experience with the ULA Amigo Pro?

One unique thing the AutoFlow has is that it doesn't allow the water and dirt to directly flow into the main filter element. The picture of the ULA's pump shows the water spout on their 1.5 gallon bag is located on the very bottom thus allowing the dirt and everything else to enter into the main element. There is no mention of a mesh screen to keep the chunks out. The AutoFlow allows much of the dirt to settle before entering into the tube and also has a 70 micron screen just in case that covers the tube entry way.

I've watched the AutoFlow work and it is fast! The biggest issue with most gravity fed filters is the speed and/or wait time. This is not the case with this filter. It's also very compact and light (not as light as ULA's, but when compared to other pumps). I believe it's a great option for those who want an alternative to pumping.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#77969 - 04/07/08 02:33 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
speyguy Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
One major disadvantage to the ULA's filter is that it's not field cleanable.


I just ordered an Amigo and did some homework before I ordered. The Amigo uses a PUR Hiker Pro filter which is indeed field cleanable. I went to REI and took one out of the box for examination. It has a pre filter mesh type screen around the main filter body that is easily removable allowing access to clean both the pre filter and main filter. The only thing about the Amigo that I admit I may not be crazy about is the water bag. Looks like it may be a bit cumbersome to fill. But we'll see. If I don't like the bag I may replace it. Hard to beat the 7.5 oz total weight. I had considered making my own gravity system but the cost of the Hiker Pro filter element alone is $39.95. I could have easily spent more in materials than the complete filter from ULA.

In regards to the Hyper Flow weight of 7.8 oz., I have read that this total reported weight is for the pump only and does not include the pre filter or hoses required for operation. Can anyone verify the total weight of the complete filter with hoses, prefilter and any other items necessary for field use?


Edited by speyguy (04/07/08 02:42 PM)

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#77970 - 04/07/08 04:45 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6371
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Quote:
One major disadvantage to the ULA's filter is that it's not field cleanable.


Funny, I've cleaned this filter in the field three times, two of them just for practice.

I haven't really timed the filtering speed of the ULA Amigo Pro and I really don't care, because while it's filtering I'm doing something else, like resting or cooking or admiring the scenery or some such. I don't go out backpacking to indulge in speed; there's too much of that going on in "civilization." I'm more interested in weight, price and effectiveness. If I want speed, I'll get a Steripen or return to using a pump filter.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#77971 - 04/08/08 06:55 AM Filter problems [Re: speyguy]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
I’ve had problems w/ Hiker Pro filters and I will probably have problems with the MSR Hyper Flow filters (I would love to be proved wrong).

Hiker Pro claims 0.3 micron filtering.
AutoFlow and HyperFlow claim 0.2 micron filtering.

Yet the filter I use only claims 0.4 micron filtering (First Need). Thus you would expect the First Need to filter less impurities than the Hiker Pro. However, Put 2-4 drops of dark food coloring in 1qt of water. Filter; then see if the filtered water comes out clear. If this test works, then this is also a good method to see if one has accidentally cracked said filter. Hiker Pro always lets the colored water come right through. First Need does not.

Will someone prove me wrong on the MSR Flow filters?

Thank you,
-Barry

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#77972 - 04/08/08 07:48 AM Re: Filter problems [Re: BarryP]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Depending on your food coloring, I strongly suspect that you aren't measuring the filter pores. food coloring is just a largish organic molecule - A chemical - which filters alone won't remove - so I'm surprised any filter would remove it - unless it has a charcoal or other active prefilter that gloms onto the organic stuff in the food dye. - but then you're measuring the fact that you have a prefilter that reacts with the food coloring, as opposed to filtering it.
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My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
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#77973 - 04/08/08 09:30 AM Re: Filter problems [Re: phat]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2801
Loc: NorCal
Yup--adsorbtion versus filtration. Also, is the colored water a solution or a suspension?

Possibly a decent test for organics, probably invalid for particulates.

Quote:
Depending on your food coloring, I strongly suspect that you aren't measuring the filter pores. food coloring is just a largish organic molecule - A chemical - which filters alone won't remove - so I'm surprised any filter would remove it - unless it has a charcoal or other active prefilter that gloms onto the organic stuff in the food dye. - but then you're measuring the fact that you have a prefilter that reacts with the food coloring, as opposed to filtering it.
_________________________
--Rick

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#77974 - 04/08/08 01:06 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: OregonMouse]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Quote:
One major disadvantage to the ULA's filter is that it's not field cleanable.


Funny, I've cleaned this filter in the field three times, two of them just for practice.

I haven't really timed the filtering speed of the ULA Amigo Pro and I really don't care, because while it's filtering I'm doing something else, like resting or cooking or admiring the scenery or some such. I don't go out backpacking to indulge in speed; there's too much of that going on in "civilization." I'm more interested in weight, price and effectiveness. If I want speed, I'll get a Steripen or return to using a pump filter.
I'm only familiar with the Hiker Filter element. I know, having used one on several trips, that it isn't field cleanable, especially to the 80% rate of the Hollow Fiber filter. My understanding is that the Hiker Pro cartridge simply has a fine mesh screen that surrounds the same filter element that has always been the Hiker. This is simply an internal prefilter and the pores of the screen aren't small enough to remove the microbes which pass through to the main element. My feeling is that you may be able to clean the stuff that can be seen in the water (algae, dirt, etc.), but the stuff that can't be seen is slowly clogging the Hiker Pro's main element.

The Hollow Fiber is a non-absorbing material (unlike the paper filter of the Hiker and Hiker Pro) that releases very easily the microbes that normally clog a filter. In the case of the Miniworks EX, the user can simply remove layers of ceramic. With the Sweetwater, the user removes layers of the fiber matrix from the inside (special brush) but some of the gunk that is absorbed can't be removed. However, with the Hiker Pro, the only thing that can be done is to either clean the mesh screen or replace the screen (I've inspected it very thoroughly and feel confident that this is the case). You simply can't clean the main filter element effectively. Although there is a claim that backflushing helps, I've never noticed it working for me.

I'm not here to promote that the Hiker Pro or Hiker are bad. I do think the fact that they aren't as field maintainable as other filters (as is the case with the Hiker Pro) is a disadvantage, but they have many advantages. I've used them for several years and have always had good experiences. However, based on my experience, I have never successfully been able to clean a filter element in the field or at home. In some cases I've only been able to filter 20 gallons from my Hiker due to blue-green algae in the high Uintah Lakes.

Hollow Fiber is fully cleanable and will improve the performance of the filter almost to what it was when you first bought it. It's not as good as the Miniworks, but far superior than any other filter currently available.

In terms of the speed, the reason why gravity fed filters aren't that widely accepted is because of the weight and speed. I believe that if the user would realize that they can get water as fast from their gravity fed filter as from a pump, then more people would be interested in the gravity fed system. I agree that we are in way to big of a rush in our daily lives and to get out in the backcountry and slow down is highly desirable. That is a huge reason why I go out. Unfortunately sometimes I don't think ahead and seem to forget about water until I need it. With the AutoFlow, this isn't a problem. With other gravity fed filters, I would wait upwards of an hour or more (not the case with the Amigo Pro). The best thing is, even when the water is ready to consume after only 4 minutes, I can still lay around and veg until I'm ready to use it.
_________________________
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#77975 - 04/08/08 01:14 PM Re: Filter problems [Re: BarryP]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I’ve had problems w/ Hiker Pro filters and I will probably have problems with the MSR Hyper Flow filters (I would love to be proved wrong).

Hiker Pro claims 0.3 micron filtering.
AutoFlow and HyperFlow claim 0.2 micron filtering.

Yet the filter I use only claims 0.4 micron filtering (First Need). Thus you would expect the First Need to filter less impurities than the Hiker Pro. However, Put 2-4 drops of dark food coloring in 1qt of water. Filter; then see if the filtered water comes out clear. If this test works, then this is also a good method to see if one has accidentally cracked said filter. Hiker Pro always lets the colored water come right through. First Need does not.

Will someone prove me wrong on the MSR Flow filters?

Thank you,
-Barry
I got this from our water specialist at Cascade Designs. She said, "The threads on trying to test the filter’s ability to remove food coloring from water is not an appropriate test. The filter removes particulate and pathogens down to 0.2 micron, not dissolved solids such as salt, food coloring, acids, etc. If you filter a coke, for instance, it will still be the same brown color as it went in, but all of the pathogens bigger than 0.2 microns will be removed."

My understanding is that the First Needs Filter element is basically a positively charged Carbon Matrix (I've cut into one and it looks like a big chunk of black volcanic rock). This would explain it's ability to remove the food coloring where other filters won't. The Miniworks EX does a better job than most, but that's because of it's carbon core. The HyperFlow won't take out any of the food coloring because it has no carbon component.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#77976 - 04/08/08 01:39 PM Re: Filter problems [Re: jasonlivy]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
Thanx for checking on that Jason.
As phat put it “food coloring is just a largish organic molecule…”, true.
And I like filtering out ‘largish organic molecules’ <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
-Barry

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#77977 - 04/08/08 01:59 PM Re: Filter problems [Re: BarryP]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

And it's fine to like carbon in your filter to glom onto colors and smells (for a little while anyway). however just remember that it's not really a valid test for filtering pathogens, or for checking for a
cracked filter.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#77978 - 04/09/08 09:03 AM Re: Filter problems [Re: phat]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“however just remember that it's not really a valid test for filtering pathogens, or for checking for a
cracked filter.”

?
So First Need and all their engineers and scientists have been wrong all these years?
It appears they have a pretty slick method for finding an internally damaged filter.
From http://www.generalecology.com/first%20need%20original%20instructions.pdf

“A simple test to assure that the canister has not been damaged internally, either during use, transport or backwash is to:
1. Add a couple drops (no more) of ordinary red, green or blue food coloring to a glass of water
2. Pump this solution through the canister.
3. The filtered water should be colorless.
If the filtered water is still colored, even faintly, the internal canister matrix has most likely been damaged and THE CANISTER SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON UNDER THIS CONDITION AND MUST BE REPLACED.”

There’s a lot of good stuff at their Q&A: http://www.generalecology.com/qa.htm

-Barry

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#77979 - 04/09/08 10:18 AM Re: Filter problems [Re: BarryP]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2801
Loc: NorCal
Right. Because First Need is a carbon filter, dye bleed-through means one of three things: 1. a mechanical failure causing the water's path to short-circuit (bypass) filteration or 2. the carbon is saturated and has started desorbing (sloughing off) organic contamination or 3. you're pumping too fast for the filter to adsorb the dye (which could potentially occur with a brand new filter, depending on the maximum pump rate).

i.e., If you see dye discharge from a First Need (or a Hiker or any filter with carbon) you know there's a problem. If scenario 1. pathogens will make it through into the discharge. If scenario 2. pathogens may still be captured, but your cartridge has adsorbed all the carbon its capable of. Unfortunately, just by observing color you can't know which.

With a filter that doesn't use carbon, nothing of value is learned via the dye test. It's not a measure of the filter's effectiveness against pathogens.

Quote:
“however just remember that it's not really a valid test for filtering pathogens, or for checking for a
cracked filter.”

?
So First Need and all their engineers and scientists have been wrong all these years?
It appears they have a pretty slick method for finding an internally damaged filter.
From http://www.generalecology.com/first%20need%20original%20instructions.pdf

“A simple test to assure that the canister has not been damaged internally, either during use, transport or backwash is to:
1. Add a couple drops (no more) of ordinary red, green or blue food coloring to a glass of water
2. Pump this solution through the canister.
3. The filtered water should be colorless.
If the filtered water is still colored, even faintly, the internal canister matrix has most likely been damaged and THE CANISTER SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON UNDER THIS CONDITION AND MUST BE REPLACED.”

There’s a lot of good stuff at their Q&A: http://www.generalecology.com/qa.htm

-Barry
_________________________
--Rick

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#77980 - 04/09/08 02:27 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Jason,

It will be nice if the new MSR hollow tube filter media is as good as it sounds. If it is "backpacker proof" and works as advertised I'm sure it will replace a lot of lesser filters. By "lesser" I mean of lesser longevity in the field.

I'm still using my SteriPen Adventurer year around with Katadyn chlorine dioxide tabs as backup. I'll use #2 coffee filters W/small funnel 1st if the water looks less than clear.

But, filter or UV treatment preferences aside, I still think it's good to pop a few chloring dioxide tabs in one's hydration bladder every three to four days and at cleanup time just to preclude any nasties in the bladder, hose and, especially, mouthpiece.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

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#77981 - 04/10/08 06:32 AM Re: Filter problems [Re: jasonlivy]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“If you filter a coke, for instance, it will still be the same brown color as it went in,…”

Hey, that sounds like a fun experiment!
Hmm. I don’t have any coke around. How about a nice sticky grape Aldi soda? Extremely carbonated and purplish… lot of natural and artificial flavors… not one but several artificial and natural colors… high fructose corn syrup…

OK, here it goes, pure soda… up the First Need filter tube… And it comes out….. CLEAR! Wow. That just looks amazing.

But what does it taste like? All the color is gone… the carbonation is totally gone. There is a very slight taste of sweetness… like corn syrup. So it didn’t get all that liver-loving high fructose stuff out.

Still that’s incredible (OK, I get astounded easy). And now First Need has an even faster flow filter out for the same weight.

-Barry

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#77982 - 04/10/08 10:07 AM Re: Filter problems [Re: BarryP]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2801
Loc: NorCal
A gentle suggestion: backflush and/or chlorine-treat the filter, since the sugar the filter took up will serve as bacteria food.

p.s. Does First Need silver-coat their carbon?

Quote:
“If you filter a coke, for instance, it will still be the same brown color as it went in,…”

Hey, that sounds like a fun experiment!
Hmm. I don’t have any coke around. How about a nice sticky grape Aldi soda? Extremely carbonated and purplish… lot of natural and artificial flavors… not one but several artificial and natural colors… high fructose corn syrup…

OK, here it goes, pure soda… up the First Need filter tube… And it comes out….. CLEAR! Wow. That just looks amazing.

But what does it taste like? All the color is gone… the carbonation is totally gone. There is a very slight taste of sweetness… like corn syrup. So it didn’t get all that liver-loving high fructose stuff out.

Still that’s incredible (OK, I get astounded easy). And now First Need has an even faster flow filter out for the same weight.

-Barry
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--Rick

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#77983 - 04/10/08 11:48 AM Re: Filter problems [Re: Rick_D]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada


Well, I'm also interested in how *long* the filter will pull organics like coke out before the carbon
is tapped out and the filter would need to be replaced.
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#77984 - 04/10/08 01:39 PM Re: Filter problems [Re: phat]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:


Well, I'm also interested in how *long* the filter will pull organics like coke out before the carbon
is tapped out and the filter would need to be replaced.
I know the Miniworks EX is rated for 2000 gallons before the carbon becomes unable to absorb any more contaminates, etc. This obviously is dependent on how much organic material, pesticides, etc. is in the water being filtered. The ceramic is rated for 2,000 liters so the carbon should way outlast the ceramic.
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#77985 - 04/11/08 07:08 AM Re: Filter problems [Re: phat]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
Good idea Rick_D to backflush. In fact I backflushed with warm water aftwards. That seems to clean sticky messes better than cold water. And I use 5 drops of bleach in 2 qts of water also for cleaning. I let the pump and tubing soak in my 2qt bleach solution for a few minutes. I then backflush about 1 cup of that bleach solution with a slow, slow pump stroke.


“Well, I'm also interested in how *long* the filter will pull organics like coke out before the carbon
is tapped out and the filter would need to be replaced.”

That is a good question. In fact, for this test, I used an old cartridge. What do I consider old? When my pump stroke becomes twice as hard as normal. I want easy strokes when I’m out backpacking. I save these ‘old’ cartridges because they can still be used for gravity filtering in times of emergency. And I can do experiments like this <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-Barry

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#77986 - 04/23/08 05:01 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jackb]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Facts are verifiable. So, does anyone out there have both the Hiker and the new MSR filter? If so, please weigh them on a reliable scale and report the result. Then all of us will know which filter is the lightest and by how much.
I finally got my production sample of the HyperFlow and have weighed it (I'm using the Sunbeam 5 lb. Scale, model SP5). The results are:

-HyperFlow Filter w/o prefilter, hose, lid, or bag: 4.9 oz.

-Lid only: 1.2 oz.

-Hose and Prefilter only: 2.5 oz.

-MSR HyperFlow Bag only (includes Tyvek instructions on how to backflush): 1.1 oz.

-HyperFlow w/ prefilter and hose (not including lid): 7.4 oz. - You can use it in this configuration with Platypus Bottles. The water outlet on the HyperFlow fits perfectly into the Platypus opening.

-HyperFlow w/ prefilter and hose w/ lid: 8.7 oz. - The lid makes filtering into Nalgene and Drom bags much easier.

-HyperFlow w/ prefilter and hose w/ lid and bag: 9.8 oz.

-New HyperFlow filter element only: 0.8 oz (23 g)



I pulled out my Pur Hiker and weighed it. These are the results:

-PUR Hiker Filter w/o prefilter, hose, bottle adaptor, or bag: 8.7 oz.

-PUR Hiker Filter w/ prefilter, hose, and bottle adapter: 12.7 oz.

-PUR Hiker Filter w/ prefilter, hose, bottle adapter, and bag: 13.6 oz.

-New PUR Hiker filter element only: 3.5 oz. (99 g)

*These are dry weights for both filters.
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#77987 - 04/24/08 03:12 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Jason,

Saw one today. It appears that I need to carry a Nalgene bottle to back flush the filter. That is a deal breaker for us Gatorade guys.

Is a Nalgene bottle needed to back flush the filter?
_________________________
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Yogi Berra

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#77988 - 04/24/08 03:47 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: ringtail]
Aviprk Offline
member

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 82
I think you only need a bowl of clean water. It doesn't have to be a bottle. You were probably confused because of the nalgene adaptor

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#77989 - 04/24/08 04:12 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: ringtail]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Jason,

Saw one today. It appears that I need to carry a Nalgene bottle to back flush the filter. That is a deal breaker for us Gatorade guys.

Is a Nalgene bottle needed to back flush the filter?
No. A Nalgene is one method as it gives you a positive connection, but it isn't necessary. You can backflush with narrow mouth bottles including Platypus, traditional soda plastic bottles, etc. The lid will work with Dromlite bags, Drom bags, and any other bottle that will fit a 64mm lid.

According to the official Backflushing directions included with the pump, it's recommended that you use one of three types of containers. These are:
-Hard Bottle (i.e. Nalgene, GSI, etc.)
-Flexible Water Container (i.e. Dromedary with Quick Connect Lid (comes with the HyperFlow), Dromlite, Hydromedary).
-Personal Hydration System (i.e. Platypus Big Zip, CamelBak, etc.). With these you attach the hose (removing the bite valve first) to the nipple on the end of the HyperFlow's filter head.

It's best if you can get a good seal which won't allow air into the system. Air seems to be the biggest issue when backflushing (causes it to not suck water in). A plastic soda bottle will leak, meaning you might get wet, but it should work if inverted.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#77990 - 04/24/08 06:50 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Richard295 Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 5
Jason,

The twist connection between my Hyperflow pump and associated cap results in significant leakage when a wide mouth bottle is inverted for back flushing. Have you ever done a back flush, using this connection, without experiencing leaks?

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#77991 - 04/25/08 11:32 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Richard295]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Jason,

The twist connection between my Hyperflow pump and associated cap results in significant leakage when a wide mouth bottle is inverted for back flushing. Have you ever done a back flush, using this connection, without experiencing leaks?
This is normal. I think I misspoke when I said that the connection with the cap and pump was air tight. What really happens is when you invert the bottle when backflushing the connection does become air tight due to the water forcing the air up. There will be leakage but it shouldn't be so bad that all of the water leaks out before you're able to backflush properly.

Without using the lid but instead using a typical 20 oz. soda bottle, there will be more leakage than when using the lid, but with practice the user will still be able to backflush.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#77992 - 04/25/08 02:56 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Richard295 Offline
newbie

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 5
Jason,

Thank you for your prompt and comprehensive response to my question about back flush leakage.

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#77993 - 05/04/08 08:44 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Follow up to Jason's post, this picture shows the relative size of the Hyperflow and my old Pur filter.

I weighed everything you see in the picture. The MSR unit came to 248 grams (8.8 oz), the Pur came to 349 grams (12.3 oz) or about 101 gram (3.5 oz) difference. The cap, however, weighs 36 grams (1.3 oz). Since it would presumably replace the cap on a water bottle, the scales would tip slightly further toward the MSR unit.

If you use a bladder, you can eliminate the caps and set either filter to pump directly into the bladder. The Pur bottle stopper weighs 24 grams (0.8 oz) and the effluent hose 34 grams (1.2 oz).


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#77994 - 05/27/08 09:37 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Alright, REI dangled a 20% coupon in front of me again, and curiosity got the better of me. So I ordered one of these, and got it last Friday (it was on backorder, but I only had to wait a few days). The weights posted here are accurate. I weighed mine in at 8.64 oz with everything minus the bottle adaptor (don't need it with Platy and soda bottles). My hiker with everything except the bottle adaptor is 13.05 oz.

So for all the "trash talking" I did earlier in this thread, what do I think? Well, I think this thing is pretty darn cool. I have only tested it in my kitchen, so use in the field will tell the real story. I will actually be out on a multiple day trip in a week, so I'll report on it when I get back.

A couple of general observations:
1. The manual recommends back flushing every 8 liters (basically once a day). I have read a lot of negative stuff about having to back flush, but I tested it out using a platy hoser and thought was pretty easy. I suppose if you use a bottle or something you have to invert it might be more difficult.
2. This thing is about as fast as advertised. I didn't time myself, but it took about 12 pumps to fill up a 20 oz bottle. I can't remember how many pumps it took me with the Hiker, but it was several more than 12.

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#181749 - 01/07/14 10:14 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: 90RunnerRed]
et mcpappy Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/15/13
Posts: 1
I sure as hell hope so.

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#181753 - 01/07/14 10:54 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: et mcpappy]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2837
Loc: Portland, OR
What are you referring to?

Oh, and did you notice this thread was over 5 years old?

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