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#77946 - 03/22/08 07:36 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: ndsol]
ndsol Offline
member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, Texas
I went to REI to see about this, but they didn't have it in and so I tried then to order it as it was in their catalog. However, they couldn't get the computer to accept it even on backorder. Since I wanted to use my 20% coupon for it, she gave me a note for future use of it.

So who knows when it will make it on the shelves.

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#77947 - 03/22/08 07:53 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: ndsol]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

MEC's got 'em, but they only ship em within canada.

I just can't see myself buying something that dies if it freezes! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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#77948 - 03/23/08 12:06 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: phat]
frediver Offline
member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 114
Are these going to have a decent user serviceable pre-filter, preferably something that does not require a proprietary pre-filter element?

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#77949 - 03/23/08 06:51 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: ndsol]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I went to REI to see about this, but they didn't have it in and so I tried then to order it as it was in their catalog. However, they couldn't get the computer to accept it even on backorder. Since I wanted to use my 20% coupon for it, she gave me a note for future use of it.

So who knows when it will make it on the shelves.
Because of supplier issues, we are looking towards early May delivery.

MSR is dedicated to making sure it works 100% as claimed. If it doesn't, it isn't released. When you do finally get one, it will be good to know it works as well as the hype it's gotten. I'll tell you it will be worth the wait.
_________________________
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#77950 - 03/23/08 07:17 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: phat]
ndsol Offline
member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 673
Loc: Houston, Texas
Quote:

MEC's got 'em, but they only ship em within canada.

Looks like on backorder at MEC as well.

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#77951 - 03/26/08 12:34 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Aviprk]
jackb Offline
member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 21
According to the Trailspace review, the real weight of the filter comes in around 11oz. If the filter is susceptible to freezing and damage from dropping, and if it does, in fact, weigh 11 oz., and if it costs $100, then the only advantage that it has over the Pur Hiker is that it pumps faster. A Hiker can be had for $60, weighs 11 oz. and is not susceptible to freezing and dropping, so why would anyone spend the $100?

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#77952 - 03/26/08 02:03 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jackb]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
According to the Trailspace review, the real weight of the filter comes in around 11oz. If the filter is susceptible to freezing and damage from dropping, and if it does, in fact, weigh 11 oz., and if it costs $100, then the only advantage that it has over the Pur Hiker is that it pumps faster. A Hiker can be had for $60, weighs 11 oz. and is not susceptible to freezing and dropping, so why would anyone spend the $100?
Trailspace is weighing the bag, cap, and filter. The weight quoted on msrgear.com is just the filter. This is the same for the Hiker. In fact, after having weighed the Hiker on my digital scale, the weight they quote on their box doesn't include the hose or prefilter. The actual weight is around 15oz. for the Hiker.

The fact that it is 3 times faster and that it can be field maintained (ie. cleaned) in the field are definite advantages. It is also rated to pump more water per filter life (1000L for the HyperFlow vs. 750L for the Hiker). The other thing I really like about the HyperFlow is that it is so compact. The Hiker is also, but does not pack together as well, especially with the ungainly hoses. The HyperFlow has a unique prefilter which also serves as a 'hose-holder'. Once your finished you simply wrap up the hose around the filter and secure it using the velcro straps on the prefilter. It is easy and super slick. The way it attaches to either a wide-mouth (64mm) bottle or a Drom or Dromlite bag is also much better designed. There are many details that are not explained just by looking at the basic specs of both filters. It's a cool little filter that introduces a brand new technology to the water filter fray. This is always a good thing <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />.


Edited by jasonlivy (03/26/08 04:24 PM)

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#77953 - 03/27/08 09:26 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Well, not to start an argument here, but I also have a Hiker and I just recently weighed it at slightly over 13 oz with just about everything included. So you could probably get in the sub 12 oz range if you just take the filter and hoses along.

You also never addressed the cold issue that has been mentioned in multiple posts in this thread. Is that just a fact that it is susceptible to damage in freezing temperatures due to the technology, or can this thing in fact be used in freezing temperatures?

I myslef was gung ho to drop the cash on one, but as I read more it seems as though the only advantage of this filter over the Hiker is the speed. That's really not enough to make me want to get one. Not being a water treatment specialist I am also concerned about what others have posted discussing the issues of things like chemicals getting through this type of filter technology. Yeah I know, it probably isn't a big deal here in the backcountry of the US, but it's still something to consider.

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#77954 - 04/03/08 01:26 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Berserker]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I myslef was gung ho to drop the cash on one, but as I read more it seems as though the only advantage of this filter over the Hiker is the speed.
Out in the West, field maintainablility (ie. the ability to clean the fliter element in the field when clogged) is pretty important. Perhaps in the eastern US it isn't as big a deal. I won't get into an argument about filter weights, and I'm happy you like your Hiker <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I will just say that even if the weight is 13 oz., the HyperFlow is 5.5 oz. lighter. For the lightweight zealots, saving almost 6 oz on one piece of gear is significant. It may not be to you.

Taking the chemicals out of the water are akin to removing viruses in my opinion (speaking for myself and not Cascade Designs here). Though important (MiniWorks EX is the best at this), the question is how much of a threat is it in the backcountry? If this is important to you, then the HyperFlow (which doesn't have a carbon component in the fliter element) may not be your filter.

Before casting judgement on this filter, I would check one out (they will be in stores very soon). On paper it is impressive, but up close and personal it is even better. The HyperFlow is a huge step forward for backcountry filter technology and will be a serious contender in the marketplace. There are many who are very satisfied with their current water treatment solution which is great. I, for one, am switching to the HyperFlow or maybe even the AutoFlow (gravity fed filter, just over 10 oz., filters at 1.75L per minute WITHOUT have to pump(!), also field maintainable). Personally, I've filtered water directly from the Colorado River and have been very satisfied in the quality of water produced by the AutoFlow (used one briefly that was an early prototype approved for backcountry use. My current sample is not).

There really is nothing more that can be said than what I've said already. If having one of the lightest weight water filters on the market; pumping at 3 to 3.5L per min; and being able to clean the filter element in the field which will significantly improve performance doesn't meet your needs or worth the upgrade, then I would stick to what your using currently.
_________________________
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#77955 - 04/03/08 04:04 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Jason , there is one more thing.

In looking at that video of the Hyperflow linked in your original post, I noticed that the intake hose is not connected to the filter body or cylinder, but to the pump itself -- to the thing that is going in-&-out-&-in-&-out.

It's tugging at the hose and that's causing the pre-filter or intake end to be jumping around, which in the field would be causing it to hop around on the bottom or up to the top, stirring up sediment or even sucking air.

On Katadyn/PUR filters, the intake hose is on the the filter cylinder, which can be rested on a rock while you pump the handle up and down. One of my main concerns when water-wanking at the stream is to keep that hose STEADY to keep from stirring up the bottom. My PUR Guide even had a rubber bottom that it rested on to help steady it.

With the Hyperflow, MSR does seem to have addressed the problems of the old antique-pitcher-pump style filters like the Sweetwater and the Miniworks with the new bicycle-tire style pump. Those "pitcher-pumps" tended to give out at the hinge on the pump handle. That part on my old Sweetwater literally crumbled while I was pumping streamside & in mid-hike years ago, which is why I switched to a PUR Guide that's now no longer sold.

I've been looking for a replacement for that old Guide that recently gave up the ghost and I've been searching the many posts on the subject on the forum. The Hyperflow looks promising, but this hose-on-the-pump thing has me concerned. Any thoughts on that?
_________________________
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(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#77956 - 04/03/08 04:10 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
azcanyon Offline
member

Registered: 07/12/04
Posts: 264
Quote:
I will just say that even if the weight [of the Katadyn Hiker] is 13 oz., the HyperFlow is 5.5 oz. lighter. For the lightweight zealots, saving almost 6 oz on one piece of gear is significant.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> As you know (since you just said so last week), the 7.5 ounce figure for the Hyperflow is only for the filter itself, not for some of the essential things you would need to operate it in the field.

Fresh off my scale: the Hiker filter cartridge, filter body, two hoses, prefilter, and fitting for Nalgene/MSR openings weighs 349 grams or 12.3 ounces. If the required stuff for the Hyperflow is indeed around 11 ounces or even less, then that's certainly lighter, perhaps significantly so. But it isn't six ounces. Apples to apples, please.

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#77957 - 04/03/08 09:18 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: kevonionia]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
That intake does seem to swim around - and that's with the hose relaxed (note the coils in the water.) It's also in a very still sink of water. Makes you wonder what would happen with the hose fully extended - as mine often was when perched on a rock or log (or one foot on each), trying not to fall in - and the moving water in the stream constantly shifting it anyhow. However, there might be a fairly simple fix.

A couple of years ago, I started carrying a Granite Gear Slurpin bowl (size medium) to use with my Miniworks filter. The filter stores inside the bowl, which replaces the stuff sack, so I had little or no weight gain (an ounce, at most.) I added the bowl to make life easier: instead of perching precariously on a rock or log, trying to keep the inlet from drifting out of place, I simply dip a bowl of water and carry it to a comfortable log or rock and sit while I filter. I usually let it stand for a minute, to settle. The relatively small diameter of the bowl will minimize any movement of the intake, and the bowl is deep enough that I can keep the outlet out of what little sediment does settle out.

By the way, I've never been impressed enough with the Sweetwater's sturdiness in the store to give it a try in the field; the handle assembly just plain looks flimsy to me. However, I've used a Miniworks happily for years (recreationally, not thru-hiking - anywhere from 10 - 30 days a year) without anything ever going wrong - the pump handle shows no signs of stress at all. Before the Miniworks came out, I used most of the PUR models, including the Hiker and Explorer (I think that was the name - looked like a bicycle pump), with my Scout troop; every handle on every model broke within a year - a couple on the second weekend. They also clogged remarkably fast, and since the elements were not field cleanable, this meant we had to always carry an spare element - something I've never needed to do with the Miniworks. So, for true apples-to-apples, I think you have to add the weight of the spare element to the Hiker. (In the end, any decent filter is going to put a pound or so into your pack, by the time you count everything. The only truly light filter I've ever tried is the Katadyn Mini, also field cleanable, but its flow rate is so slow I don't put it in the "decent" category.)

Now, having said all this, I've not seen anything about the Hyperflow that gets me excited enough to even consider replacing my Miniworks. The Hyperflow doesn't seem to offer much weight savings, and the bottle adapter seems a lot more fiddly than the attachment method of the Miniworks. The idea of backflushing may make it field cleanable, but it looks like a lot more hassle than just taking the element out of the Miniworks for a quick scrub. No "wow" factor at all, at least not yet.

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#77958 - 04/04/08 06:09 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Glenn]
kevonionia Offline
member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 1322
Loc: Dallas, TX
Glenn:

Thanks for that tip, a great solution; I'm going to check into that bowl. I tried the "remote filtering" thing two summers ago with a gallon ziplock baggy -- worked great, it even preheated the leftover unfiltered water when placed in the sun for later cooking -- but it required someone to hold the bag and another to pump, making it suddenly a two-person job. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> On the third day it got poked by a twig and developed a hole, so I put that idea away -- until now.

Good to know the Miniworks' handle is a lot sturdier -- I'd probably be using it less than you do, too, so it's a contender in the search.
_________________________
- kevon

(avatar: raptor, Lake Dillon)


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#77959 - 04/04/08 08:40 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: azcanyon]
jackb Offline
member

Registered: 04/13/07
Posts: 21
Facts are verifiable. So, does anyone out there have both the Hiker and the new MSR filter? If so, please weigh them on a reliable scale and report the result. Then all of us will know which filter is the lightest and by how much.

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#77960 - 04/04/08 09:48 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Well, azcanyon already pointed out what I was referring to in the weights where the actual weight of Hyperflow is being reported around 11 oz with all the needed items to actually use it in the field. That was the only point I was trying to make in the difference in weights between the Hiker and Hyperflow. It appears to be maybe closer to a 2 oz difference. As jackb said it would be nice if someone could weigh both of them.

I wasn't trying to cast judgement on the filter (although it may have come off that way), I was just trying to get a better understanding of it. I just like trying out different gear, and whether or not I like my Hiker there is always room in the rotation for another filter. Unfortunately my opportunity has passed as I was going to use my REI 20% off one item coupon and it has expired. Well, maybe I'll consider it again when I get another coupon.

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#77961 - 04/04/08 09:51 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: Glenn]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1347
Loc: Seattle, WA
I use a similar strategy to your bowl method.

I carry two half gallon gator-aid bottles. One labeled clean and the other labeled dirty. I scoop up the water with the dirty bottle and then filter it into the clean bottle at my leisure.

I often camp where there is no water. I do so to get away from people. Dry camps are less used than camps near rivers and streams. The two bottle system allows me to carry a gallon of water to my campsite. I filter one bottles worth, scoop up another 2 quarts of dirty water and head for camp.

The two bottle system has also paid dividends in bad weather. I can quickly grab two quarts of dirty water on the way to camp and then filter it in the comfort of my tent.

I have a large pack so carrying two bottles is no problem for me. I sometimes even use a gallon bottle for the dirty water.

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#77962 - 04/04/08 10:27 AM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: DJ2]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I do a lot of dry camping, too, for pretty much the same reasons. I usually filter into a 2-quart Dromlite. (The Dromlite, filled with water or inflated with air, or combination of both, makes a dandy pillow.)

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#77963 - 04/04/08 07:58 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: azcanyon]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Quote:
I will just say that even if the weight [of the Katadyn Hiker] is 13 oz., the HyperFlow is 5.5 oz. lighter. For the lightweight zealots, saving almost 6 oz on one piece of gear is significant.

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> As you know (since you just said so last week), the 7.5 ounce figure for the Hyperflow is only for the filter itself, not for some of the essential things you would need to operate it in the field.

Fresh off my scale: the Hiker filter cartridge, filter body, two hoses, prefilter, and fitting for Nalgene/MSR openings weighs 349 grams or 12.3 ounces. If the required stuff for the Hyperflow is indeed around 11 ounces or even less, then that's certainly lighter, perhaps significantly so. But it isn't six ounces. Apples to apples, please.
Unfortunately I'm away from my digital scale, but when I get home I'll take out my Hiker and my new production HyperFlow filter (which hopefully is waiting for me at home) and weigh them. I'm as interested as anyone and am taking Cascade Designs at their word that the weight is really the pump, hose, and prefilter. I promise that I will give you the exact weight that I get on the HyperFlow and the Hiker and be as fair as is possible. If the HyperFlow does come in at 11oz. or more and the Hiker is 12.3 oz. then I will correct my past posts. I hate it when companies use weight as a marketing tool. There isn't a "minimum" weight for pumps. Either you carry the pump, hoses and prefilter, or you don't really have a filter.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#77964 - 04/04/08 08:05 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: kevonionia]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
It's tugging at the hose and that's causing the pre-filter or intake end to be jumping around, which in the field would be causing it to hop around on the bottom or up to the top, stirring up sediment or even sucking air.
This is the first I'm hearing about this. I can see how it would cause a concern. My own personal experience has not resulted in me noticing this when demonstrating it in clinics. I think it takes a little getting used to just like any new piece of gear. One thing I have noticed is that the prefilter doesn't need to be fully submersed in order for it to work. The hose is also pretty long and the velcro attachment can be used to anchor down the prefilter.

I haven't used a production unit in the field (I've been using a prototype that hasn't been approved to be used in the backcountry) yet and as soon as I do I'll let you know if it is an annoyance.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#77965 - 04/04/08 08:06 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
CWF Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 266
Thanks Jason. Look forward to your post back.

If I can increase the pump rate and drop 1/2 pound from my Miniworks, I will be extremely happy.

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#77966 - 04/04/08 08:06 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I've got an old Pur version of the Hiker, it tipped my scales at 15.4 ounces including stuff sack.

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#77967 - 04/04/08 11:47 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6401
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I can't see where the MSR AutoFlow is much of an improvement on the ULA Amigo Pro, 7.5 oz. and $45. It's both pricier and heavier, and only a little faster.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#77968 - 04/07/08 01:49 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: OregonMouse]
jasonlivy Offline
member

Registered: 01/02/04
Posts: 654
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
I can't see where the MSR AutoFlow is much of an improvement on the ULA Amigo Pro, 7.5 oz. and $45. It's both pricier and heavier, and only a little faster.
I don't know anything about this filter. I think the best attribute to this filter is the price and weight. One major disadvantage to the ULA's filter is that it's not field cleanable.

I'm confident the AutoFlow will filter at twice the speed as this one based on the fact that the Hiker is rated at about 1L per minute pumping, not through gravity feed. Again, not having used this filter, I'm only guessing. Anyone have any experience with the ULA Amigo Pro?

One unique thing the AutoFlow has is that it doesn't allow the water and dirt to directly flow into the main filter element. The picture of the ULA's pump shows the water spout on their 1.5 gallon bag is located on the very bottom thus allowing the dirt and everything else to enter into the main element. There is no mention of a mesh screen to keep the chunks out. The AutoFlow allows much of the dirt to settle before entering into the tube and also has a 70 micron screen just in case that covers the tube entry way.

I've watched the AutoFlow work and it is fast! The biggest issue with most gravity fed filters is the speed and/or wait time. This is not the case with this filter. It's also very compact and light (not as light as ULA's, but when compared to other pumps). I believe it's a great option for those who want an alternative to pumping.
_________________________
Believe, then you will Understand...

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#77969 - 04/07/08 02:33 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
speyguy Offline
member

Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Portland, OR
Quote:
One major disadvantage to the ULA's filter is that it's not field cleanable.


I just ordered an Amigo and did some homework before I ordered. The Amigo uses a PUR Hiker Pro filter which is indeed field cleanable. I went to REI and took one out of the box for examination. It has a pre filter mesh type screen around the main filter body that is easily removable allowing access to clean both the pre filter and main filter. The only thing about the Amigo that I admit I may not be crazy about is the water bag. Looks like it may be a bit cumbersome to fill. But we'll see. If I don't like the bag I may replace it. Hard to beat the 7.5 oz total weight. I had considered making my own gravity system but the cost of the Hiker Pro filter element alone is $39.95. I could have easily spent more in materials than the complete filter from ULA.

In regards to the Hyper Flow weight of 7.8 oz., I have read that this total reported weight is for the pump only and does not include the pre filter or hoses required for operation. Can anyone verify the total weight of the complete filter with hoses, prefilter and any other items necessary for field use?


Edited by speyguy (04/07/08 02:42 PM)

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#77970 - 04/07/08 04:45 PM Re: New MSR Filter [Re: jasonlivy]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6401
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Quote:
One major disadvantage to the ULA's filter is that it's not field cleanable.


Funny, I've cleaned this filter in the field three times, two of them just for practice.

I haven't really timed the filtering speed of the ULA Amigo Pro and I really don't care, because while it's filtering I'm doing something else, like resting or cooking or admiring the scenery or some such. I don't go out backpacking to indulge in speed; there's too much of that going on in "civilization." I'm more interested in weight, price and effectiveness. If I want speed, I'll get a Steripen or return to using a pump filter.
_________________________
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