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#77487 - 08/06/07 04:16 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
tarbubble Offline
member

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 996
Loc: ca-li-for-ni-a
i resent mainstream stores like Albertson's, Target & Wal-Mart carrying organic items. for years I had to special-order organic cotton items at astronomical prices online or through catalogs. now any old slob can stroll into Wal-Mart and get organic cotton bedsheets for 50 lousy bucks! i can get an organic cotton t-shirt for $10! argh, what's this world coming to?

i used to have to wait for the farmer's market or else drive way out of my way to get organic produce, and forget about getting any good snack or convenience foods that were made from healthy ingredients. now, i can buy organic wheat crackers, milk, fruit leather, nuts and all manner of food while i'm at Target getting my toilet paper! and so can anybody else! this is horrible!

i liked it better back when i was the only one who knew about good nutrition and planet-friendly food & clothing selections. and if nobody ever came to me looking for advice on how to eat healthier, then they didn't deserve to know! now all of a sudden the mainstream media has caught wind of MY standards and is letting everybody else know about them! people are writing BOOKS about vegetarianism and natural eating and ways to leave a smaller impact on the planet! you can get these books at any old corporate bookstore!

this really chaps my hide. whatever happened the purity and exclusivity of buying organic? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


Edited by tarbubble (08/06/07 04:19 PM)

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#77488 - 08/07/07 06:59 AM Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
I think Tarbubble and PIka have said what it is I am feeling the best. Though perhaps Trabubble's post was ment more as a pun/funny than anything else. I had to laugh at some of these posts. And as far as the number of post creating a "I know better than you account" is not what was intended. I was throwing back into the person a retort for con-screwing my thoughts and calling me an elitist jerk. Now then, onwards. It is not that I fear change, or that I think we are a special breed (ok maybe a little) and yes I have tons of pics, and have seen tons of old school packers, (which gives me a smug smile every time) but I am just as quick to talk with them and try and convert them, or offer some simple advise, hell I have even stopped people on the trail and re-adjusted their packs for them because it was completly off balance and sideways and you could see the discomfort in their faces.
And for those that have decrease their pack weight via the knowledged gained through a book which resulted in purchasing and supporting a cottage industry, great. I more or less did the same thing just via internet forums. I used Ryans book to go form UL to SUL. But my fear is this increasing mass market UL gear will create a flux of people out in the back country that will not be healthy. I know finding a remotes pot is my resposibility, and alot of my ghiking is off-trail, but that is just it, I want the assuridness that it will be remote when I get there. I will agree that those that want to go light or even out into the back country will, and those that don't won't. But I prefer to keep it a lwo ratio and not try and give the mass population an angle to entertain the thought.
The reson I get so pissed when I see a gazillion NF jackets oroud town and on campus is becuase now it is every body and their mother is weraing them and by weraing them they seem to feel that they are a part of the outdoors and that they bought it just because it is a NF, whne in reality they are YUPPY *&%$$# who don't have a clue. (I am sure I just started another fight with that one)
Now then, I am a bike commuter, and when I can't ride my bike I ride the bus, my car is only used for when we as a family have to get some where ,or we are going on a trip, so I don't feel that I am a large partaker of the mass metals used or what ever it was that the person said. I buy my groceries froma loca store, I buy my coffe from local roaster, I buy my car parts froma local parts store, I keep everything as local as I can.
So then to those that took offense to my "putting' you down because of your post count that was not the intent (save for one, and you know who you are) To the rest thank you for the posts, and letting me vent, this is something I just had to get out into the open. My thoughts and opions have not changed much, but I am glad you guys (that is an all inclusive term) have showed me some different points of view on the subject which makes for a more well rounded concept and one can better formulate and idea from. I apreciate all you posts, even the not so "nice" ones then again mine was not that nice to begin with was it. But it is the way I feel/felt maybe I am being a little fanitical here, but it is a thin line between wanting to share it with the world and yet a part of me wants it to be small and clandetine. Who knows. Hey at least the forum saw some action for a while.


Edited by mugs (08/07/07 07:00 AM)

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#77489 - 08/07/07 07:27 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
> maybe I am being a little fanitical here

I just wish you'd quit knocking on my door all the time asking if I've heard the good news about ultralight hiking or if I'm going straight to hell.

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#77490 - 08/07/07 09:00 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
tarbubble Offline
member

Registered: 04/18/03
Posts: 996
Loc: ca-li-for-ni-a
deep sigh... my post was intended to show you that you're being ridiculous. there is such a deep gulf between your outlook on the world and mine that it just makes me sad. you're not going to be teaching elementary school, are you? i don't mean it as an insult, just that i really don't want somebody who thinks the way you do to be influencing my kids.

exclusivity results in inbreeding. elitism results in isolation. we had a minor discussion over at BPL lately that i think relates closely to this. are you a person that loves people, or are you a person that can't stand people (unless they fit your narrow definition of what makes them worthwhile)? you're looking more and more like the latter. your superiority complex is staggering and i suspect makes arguing with you pointless.

the fact that you would class anybody who chooses to put on a pack and take those steps away from their car, away from the guided paths - the fact that you are still choosing to term people who are GETTING OUT THERE as "tourons" tells me a great deal about you. as i age (i'm at the ripe old age of 32 right now <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ), i have come to realize that everybody is a moron in the right situation. occasionally i have to hire somebody to fix something at my house, because there are limits to my handywoman-ness. when the electrician comes over to do work for me, does he privately think to himself "what a moron, this lady doesn't know how to install wiring"? hopefully not. i respect that he has knowledge i don't, and hopefully he is mature enough to respect that i have knowledge which he does not. i can go get a book on wiring, and i could even take a class on it if i chose to learn that skill.

we all exchange. you are blinded by the self-importance of your "mastery" of UL/SUL/negative-weight backpacking. because you think that you have mastered the subject, you assume that you are superior. we poke at your balloon with our little needles, but i hope eventually you will be able to let some of the air out yourself.


Edited by tarbubble (08/07/07 09:01 AM)

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#77491 - 08/07/07 10:05 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
Berserker Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 493
Loc: Lynchburg, VA
Man, this whole thread was hilarious. You got some serious pent up aggression there mugs.

I don't really have much to add as I just don't care. As long as whoever goes into the wilderness doesn't mess it up for the rest of us then carry on. I feel from my experience that you are not going to see a big spike in people backpacking as a result of the book being sold at REI. The main thing that seems to hold the hordes at bay isn't pack weight, it's not having amenities and fear of the unknown. I have talked to a ton of people that hike, and 99% of them will not backpack cause they would have to go to the bathroom in the woods, or sleep on the ground, they don't like bugs or whatever else bothers them. As a matter of fact, it has made it difficult to actually find a decent partner. Thankfully I got one good friend I can go with.

And as a couple of others said, there is no substitute for field experience. I would venture to say that most serious backpackers will lighten their loads as a result of things they learn while backpacking. That's what you said you did, and that's what I did too.

As for selling out, I have to partially agree with your Metallica comment. That seems to be the natural progression of most bands. They put out a few albums, they get popular and then they change thier whole style to sell more albums. Is selling books about lightweight backpacking at REI the same thing? I don't think it really is. I mean all the "posers" buying all this stuff is what is keeping these companies in business so we can buy their stuff. I don't think you are gonna see most of the cottage companies going mainstream, and if you do there's sure to be more cottage gear makers to follow.

And lastly, I'm not even a UL guy so takes this poser's opinion for what its worth. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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#77492 - 08/07/07 10:39 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: tarbubble]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
Tarbubble, I understand why you did your post. BUt your remarks are what I am trying to say. Would you rather buy your organic food from Albertsons, hence supporting the big chain of Albertsons or would you rather support a local market?
As far as Tourons go, perhaps you have not heard of this term in you neck of the woods. But up here it is a term used for A: a tourist on a day day with no gear what so ever, maybe just a little evian bottle and they can be seen up the trail a good ways (somethime 6+ miles) or B: those that go on a day hike and still take no gear with them. Both are extremely un-prepared and present a hazard to themselve and the possible rescuers that have to come and get them. Hence makign them a tourist and a moron at the same time.

Turon A was spotted about 4 miles up the trail when we were coming out. Later when we were finally at the end of the trail head up comes some wilderness rescuers with a giant "big" wheel gurny. Heat stroke was the prognosis. Yes we confirmed the victim. (that way no acusations can be made that it might have been somone else) No I did not take such picture, I for one find it gross, but it proves the point.



This touron campsite was about 5 miles up the trail. I took these pictures of what not to do. Note un-staked tent, and food lying around, cooler, and even a steel double burner propane stove. Open trash bag. Not to mention the mess.









No I do not view you as an idiot, any more than a person who asks me to fix their car. I am happy to do it and love doing it. I am a peole person and love to serve, in fact I believe that we were put here to serve and not to be served. And you can be safe, I do not even have a desire to teach elementry. I have the utmost respect for elementry teachers and there will be a special place in heaven for them (not math teachers though <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />) I actually plan on teaching college/adult ed, but will be starting out in secondary ed because of job security.
No I don't have a superiority complex, and if anything I have yet to master the UL/SUL world, in fact as progressive as it is it is one that can never be mastered, just like life. It was not my intent to come off that way. But I can understand how one might see it as such.


Edited by mugs (08/07/07 10:47 PM)
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#77493 - 08/08/07 12:06 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
As a Grocery Manager that works at an Albertsons market , i beg to differ. The dollars you spend are used to pay local peoples salaries and will eventually be reinvested into the community that the store is located in by the employees that need car parts , clothing , housing or even backpacking equipment. Also , whenever possible , Albertsons buys from locally owned companies , including produce and seafood . I recently went to a local 4-H auction and bought/donated a whole cow to a family in need in a rural area...how many local markets can say they donate 5 million dollars per division / year locally to charity through food programs and special events as well as just plain gifts ? I say that if you really want to help people in your area , shop where your neighbors work...be it Albertsons or Wal-Mart ( that hurt but i said it ! ) , or at a local market if that is all that is available in your town. Your neighbors will thank you for it when they keep recieving their paychecks !
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

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#77494 - 08/08/07 05:53 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
cameraboy Offline
member

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 34
Quote:
This touron campsite was about 5 miles up the trail. I took these pictures of what not to do. Note un-staked tent, and food lying around, cooler, and even a steel double burner propane stove.


Maybe if there was a book on how to properly visit the backcountry and go lightly at the Target at which they purchased their gear, there would not be that scene. But then you would be angry that a book on UL was available to the mass market, right?


Also, what's "disgusting" about a woman in a bikini?

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#77495 - 08/08/07 06:09 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
leadfoot Offline
member

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 954
Loc: Virginia
OMG! That campsite looks familiar... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> wait...no, could it be...??? MINE??? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Wait...No!!! Wait...that's a photo of ME!!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

OMG!!!! I look pretty good. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#77496 - 08/08/07 06:53 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: bigfoot2]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
Never thought of it that way, thanks. But I still won't shop at Wal-Mart. I like our local Alberstons, Rosaurs, and Fred Meryer
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#77497 - 08/08/07 06:57 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: cameraboy]
mugs Offline
member

Registered: 12/24/05
Posts: 500
Loc: Spokane & Maple Valley, Wa
Quote:
Maybe if there was a book on how to properly visit the backcountry and go lightly at the Target at which they purchased their gear, there would not be that scene. But then you would be angry that a book on UL was available to the mass market, right?


Also, what's "disgusting" about a woman in a bikini?


1: As long as they bought their gear from a cottage industry and not a box store <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

2: For fear of starting an all out war, I will not say what I found as gross about a women in a bikini. I just feel that people should present themselves accordingly.
_________________________
I miss my 4.8lb base weight as a ground dweller. But I sure don't miss the ground.

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#77498 - 08/08/07 08:43 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
cameraboy Offline
member

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 34
Quote:
For fear of starting an all out war, I will not say what I found as gross about a women in a bikini. I just feel that people should present themselves accordinly


Hm, interesting. I find semi-naked women to be beautiful. "present themselves accordingly?" Like unshaven and in a stinky sythetic shirt that reaks of body odor, a dirty pair of nylon hiking zip-off pants, a bandana on the head, and a pair of trecking poles? I would rather run into women in bikinis.

Well, I certainly respect your opinions but am comfored by the fact that you are fighting the tide, and you can't win.

If the people with the messy campsite and heavy gear want to get outside, good for them. More people enjoying the outside equates to more people willing to save it from development. I hope that they can learn how to do it lighter and cleaner. If they learn that from a book or the internet, rather than from someone like you, that's fine with me. If they buy their gear from a large store, well, I would rather they get it from a local small guy, I don't like corporations either, but there are worse things than a person working hard and then profiting when they sell their life's work to someone who can market it effectively.

I really don't think that someone with a passing interest in backpacking is going to put themselves through the time and expense to get as light and as far as the rest of us, though.

Metallica sell out? Yea, they sell out. EVERY seat, EVERY time they play. For what it's worth, I don't like their earlier stuff.

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#77499 - 08/08/07 09:19 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
alanwenker Offline
member

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 812
If this truly keeps you up at night you should try decaf.

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#77500 - 08/08/07 10:28 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
Mumblez Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 178
Loc: Detroit Metro Area
As an employee of REI, I respect your views and your freedom to choose another place of business to purchase your outdoor equipment.

I do feel that REI is a corporation unlike many others, yes they are a business and making money is ultimately one of their main goals, but I feel they are a more ethical company than many out there and are stewards for the enviroment.

Every year they donate millions of dollars to the outdoors, many of which are donated locally to parks and organizations that maintain the trails we all hike on everyday. They are working to become more eco-friendly all the time and are an example for over 3 million active members of the co-op. They do have room for improvement just as any company does in our society today.

For me, the most important thing is that people get out and enjoy and learn to respect the enviroment. There are always going to be poeple that don't respect the outdoors and at REI we strive to teach them the correct ways by doing Leave No Trace clinics and such.

Now, did you mention that you like to hike "off-trail"? Well, doesn't that damage the enviroment even more? If people start making their own trails and begin tromping through the woods, the damage to the ecosystems could be catastrophic. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.


Edited by Mumblez (08/14/07 12:26 PM)
_________________________
"Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today." -James Dean

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#77501 - 08/08/07 10:48 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: Trailrunner]
mockturtle Offline
member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 251
Loc: WA
Well said! A so-called 'purist' is a snob.

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#77502 - 08/08/07 11:04 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mockturtle]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Well said! A so-called 'purist' is a snob.
My first reaction would be that not all purists are snobs, but when you qualify it with 'so-called' I would have to agree. But of course 'word snobbery' is but one of my many such passions. I turn up my nose to both the mainstream UL crowd and the mainstream mainstream crowd. You see, I am a minimalist snob. But again, that is only one of my many such passions. I guess I am a snob when it comes to minimalism, but not a minimalist when it comes to snobbery. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#77503 - 08/08/07 11:14 AM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2801
Loc: NorCal
Well, that's an eyeful.

Many, many moons ago I came across a couple headed up the PCT from Snoqualmie Pass in street clothes, carrying Sampsonite suitcases. Believe me, those folks will always be around, which--to repeat myself--means getting off the main trail.
_________________________
--Rick

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#77504 - 08/08/07 12:10 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: mugs]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
She got back as big as Shaq !!
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

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#77505 - 08/08/07 12:45 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: Berserker]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
There is a lot of wisdom in the topic. Maybe not enough civility though. As a hiker we should all come to realized the natural rhythms and cycles of life. REI started out a a buyng cooperative. It was a cottage industry. It has evolved into a major retailer. I started out as a UL hiker because I could not afford the equipment. I became a traditional hiker and now am evolving back into a UL hiker. I imagine that most people prefer the butterfly phase, but you get there by being a worm.

When I was 8 years old I thought women in bikinis were yucky. I hope I never outgrow my current interest in women in bikinis, but some do.

I am just pleased that my activities keep me connected to the natural rhythms and cycles.

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#77506 - 08/08/07 12:59 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: Mumblez]
Bearpaw Offline
Moderator

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 1732
Loc: Tennessee
Actually, I work for REI as well, and have mixed feeling about what I feel the cooperative's overall direction to be. But I must admit REI's ethic is dramatically better than any other job relating to production or sales I have ever worked (and I've worked a number of them from the supervisory and floor side). I've never known a place where part-timers are treated as well.

As for moving off-trail, LNT covers the concepts so that one can easily travel with no apparent impact. A single person moving gently, consciously avoiding fragile areas, and using a "bush-slide" versus a bushwhack mentality can safely travel with no environmental harm. Careful site selection and techniques prevent hardened, overused campsite.

Groups travelling off-trail tend to be more problematic. But we still routinely moved with groups of 5 or so on NOLS course. One technique is to spread out on a broad front rather than in a line. A single-person path of bent grass will recover in a few hours, as soon as wind or rain come into play. But a line of 5 will likely bend then break then stomp down vegetation. Dispersion of one's impact allows nature to recover itself pretty though, even off-trail.
_________________________
http://www.trailjournals.com/BearpawAT99/

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#77507 - 08/08/07 03:03 PM Re: Closing remarks [Re: Bearpaw]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
When looking for what I consider to be minimalist hiking stuff, I am willing to look anywhere, and find stuff just about anywhere, leaving no stone unturned. Also, you might say I'm a cross dresser. I'll use sailing stuff, paddling stuff, biking stuff, even dress stuff meant for indoors. Some of the best wool is not meant for outdoors, but is great for outdoors. And yes, I check out ladies stuff also. "Do you have those moccassins in a woman's size 13", I might ask? "You do know they are slippers", they might reply. I'm still a snob though. I might look rather strange, trudging through the woods, but I actually have very discriminating taste. I'm not an artist, but I know what I like.

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#77508 - 08/08/07 07:39 PM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: cameraboy]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I can't believe that I read through all the threads but then again what do I know, I have only been backpacking for a little over three years and I have probably posted less than 10 times.
I started backpacking because a buddy of mine wanted to do the JMT and I asked if he wanted company.
I hadn't been on a trail since I was a Tenderfoot and I am now 52 years old, so you do the math.
I read up on the subject, (oh my God!!!), and went to REI, (may I burn in hell forever), because I wanted to enjoy the outdoors.
I find if offensive when someone thinks that just because I didn't find out the hard way how to go light, (and I am still learning). And I now know about the cottage places, I have a ULA pack, but backpacking is like the rest of life. It is a learning experience.
I have always thought the idea of being outdoors was to enjoy life, not to look down on those who didn't have your great wisdom.
If you don't like buying from a company with more than one store don't do it. But REI has some good stuff for those of us who don't feel we are above the lowly masses. That would be call elitism.
Sorry if I rambled but some people need to learn to not take themselves so seriously.

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#77509 - 08/09/07 10:42 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream
drow42 Offline
member

Registered: 03/27/04
Posts: 144
Loc: Washington, DC
A lot of people have already made good arguments here, so I won't repeat. I just want to point out that the cottage industries are not a perfect model of non-corporate business. They rely heavily upon massive delivery services that overall move goods much less efficiently (especially to individual customers) than if the products were delivered to local stores. They are also highly dependent on the internet (as is the education that you claim is more pure). The internet is highly dependent on corporate support (or did you think that it was developed for the good of man kind? Nope, first it was a good way for DoD to push around information, later, it was just another way to make money).

Finally I'll point out that there are certain things that only corporations can do. Ever wonder why there are no cottage microprocessor business. Because the big guys keep them down? Nope, its just that sometimes (and this should be more often) a group of people working together can accomplish so much more than by themselves. Not saying that corporations are perfect, or really good at this all the time, but sometimes they do some good.

I'm just wondering where you draw the line. Should Jordan only have sold his book on his website, or only sold it to people that he has actually met face to face, or telephone, or email, or maybe only his friends deserved to have this knowledge, or maybe he should have just kept it to himself?

Maybe what we should do is develope a secret code, so that we can exchange information without just anybody coming and looking at our site.

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#77510 - 08/10/07 10:48 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: drow42]
treeline Offline
member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 28
Wow, what an exciting thread, it has all the elements of quality entertainment...humor, semi-nudity, self rightous narcissism, no violence yet, but maybe that's on the way.

I've been backpacking for about 30 years, still carrying my terraplane but looking for a bridger. I guess that makes me one of the behind-the-times lightweight wannabes that was referenced earlier. Better watch out Mugs, or I'm going to evolve enough to buy the same things you do! Then what are you gonna do, huh?

Dude, your diatribe has nothing to with backpacking or the outdoors, just with your dim view of your fellow man. Hey, I can relate, considering the general state of affairs in the world, a dim view might not be inappropriate at times. But, the last thing you ought to be worked up about is the public's ability to buy better backpacking gear at mass retail outlets! I mean, considering the starvation, political/economic inequities, global environmental issues, etc.

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#77511 - 08/10/07 11:45 AM Re: Ul & Mainstream [Re: mugs]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
Muggs , i noticed that you are a student. Is your major by any chance ...BISSINESS ?
_________________________
Hammockers aren't stuck up, they're just above it all.

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