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#54906 - 12/08/07 07:29 AM Re: Into the Wild (The Story of Alexander Supertra [Re: kevonionia]
mockturtle Offline
member

Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 251
Loc: WA
IMHO, Krakauer writes best in the first person and I found his rendering of this irrelevant segment superior to that of rest of the book. I do agree with you that it was a diversion and not a parallel.

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#54907 - 12/16/07 02:28 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Hector]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hector,
The obvious answer is - John Muir didn't die doing what Chriss did <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. John Muir knew what he was doing, and chris was another unequipped ill-prepared kid from the big city who ignored all local advice and died in the bush because he lacked the skills and knowledge required. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I wonder how many people are romanticising his way of life. He died... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

And the book sucked too.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#54908 - 12/16/07 03:06 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Jimshaw]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
> The obvious answer is - John Muir didn't die doing what Chriss did .

And that is the only pertinent part of your comments. Had Muir died in his often ill-advised adventures, you'd view him much as you now do Chris (if you knew of him at all). If Chris had lived a long life and written about his adventures and close-calls, you might venerate him as some sort of Muir-like guru someday (whether both or either were crazy or not).

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#54909 - 12/16/07 05:12 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Hector]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Horsecookies.

It's not so much the fact that he died as to *How* he died. Muir may have gone into areas somewhat minimally equipped by today's standards, but from reading his biography, usually spent some time in the
area first and was aquianted with what he was getting into and what to expect - no matter what the season. While Muir very well could have died in an accident or unusual situations, he was prepared
for what he would face and had the knowledge to deal with where he was. John Muir very well might have bought it in his travels - but probably not from Ignorance.
_________________________
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#54910 - 12/17/07 03:52 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: phat]
GrumpyGord Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 847
Loc: Michigan
If you call swinging around in the top of a tree during a lightning storm being prepared, then JM was prepared. Starting out with just some bread and tea, scrambling across scree slopes and across ridges, having no shelter and having to stay up all night to tend a fire for warmth etc. does not look like a prepared hiker to me. I have a lot of respect for JM but he is not exactly a role model for preparedness. He could very easily have died during many of his trips.

Quote:

Horsecookies.

It's not so much the fact that he died as to *How* he died. Muir may have gone into areas somewhat minimally equipped by today's standards, but from reading his biography, usually spent some time in the
area first and was aquianted with what he was getting into and what to expect - no matter what the season. While Muir very well could have died in an accident or unusual situations, he was prepared
for what he would face and had the knowledge to deal with where he was. John Muir very well might have bought it in his travels - but probably not from Ignorance.

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#54911 - 12/17/07 09:23 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: GrumpyGord]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Granted John Muir was'nt the picture of the 'prepared hiker' by today's standards. Back in the day folks were much more casual about their wanderings, and waxings IMO. Folks were'nt exposed to Fox's 'Most Dangerous Animals V' or whatever, every week on TV; so they went out ignorantly at times. John Muir spent his life trying to let folks know what was special about being outdoors and it has furthered our cause for conservation as an end result.

Chris was a spoiled rich kid, who, with money out the wazu could'nt make it in sight of the city limits. I have to agree that he could have availed himself of local knowledge and maybe lived to tell the tale. As far as folks doing what he did, they'll be plenty of wack jobs/newbies to follow in his footsteps <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> You can tell the ones' who are looking for 'instant' info on just about every topic...as if their butts are on fire <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Same ones who pee themselves in their sleeping bags when they hear a 'deer' for the first time at night <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Phat, ya' know what I'm talking about eh? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Can you say Greenhorn <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#54912 - 12/17/07 09:38 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: GrumpyGord]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
People had somewhat of an advantage growing up in the days before motorcars and central heating, but there have always been stories about greenhorns that have made mistakes; people getting lost in the woods and panicking, or ill prepared for storms, or caught in one as part of everyday making a living back then. Then and now I think its mostly a matter of people being unlucky before learning what they needed to know, or skilled people doing what they love until probability catches up with them. This story is a bit different, because it unfolded a bit slower than most, and its a combination of the two, plus the effects of long periods of solitude I think. When you decide to do things less normal you tend not follow norms, even the neccessary ones. It happened far more often in the past though. Today it just happens to be more of a recreational hazard than an occupational hazard or matter of everyday life. It wasn't all that long ago that winter was always expected to take its toll. It still does today, but mostly on highways. People don't write books on those fatalities. Even news stories rarely go into the details.

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#54913 - 12/17/07 09:53 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: phat]
Hector Offline
member

Registered: 12/20/04
Posts: 325
Loc: LA/ARK/TX corner
> It's not so much the fact that he died as to *How* he died

And had Muir died swinging from a tree in a lightning storm, for one example, you'd be talking about him now instead of Chris, assuming you even knew who he was. Muir zigged, Chris zagged, if you know what I mean. Very often the difference between guru and fool is purely luck.

I'm dropping this discussion -- people are making up their minds based on things other than facts on both sides, I suspect, so there's no use arguing. Besides, it's more fun to go for a walk. You may consider me fool rather than guru with my blessing. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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#54914 - 12/17/07 11:20 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Hector]
Pika Offline
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1726
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
Chris McCandless was introverted, young, bright, idealistic and naive. He was also unlucky in some of his decisions and thus came to an untimely end. In my years working with college students in the natural resources area, I came in contact with a lot of young people like Chris McCandless. I enjoyed their enthusiasm and curiosity far more than I enjoyed the standard "what do I need to know to pass the final" students.

If Chris McCandless had lived, he may have eventually become someone well known for his creativity in some field; like Jon Krakauer. Or, he may have finished his life in obscurity. We'll never know.

I look at people like him as being a lot like Henry Thoreau, John Muir, Everett Reuss or "Pete" Starr. They too, were introverted, young, bright, idealistic and naive. John Muir did some solo climbs he was lucky to survive. Everett Reuss just disappeared and Pete Starr died doing the same sort of climbing that John Muir lived to write about. Thoreau died of tuberculosis. But they had a lot in common. In my mind, they all shared the same sort of questing personality and disenchantment with conventional society that I like to think I have. Did they always "know what they were doing"? Probably not; but do any of us really? To me, the spirit of their endeavors was the important thing; not the skill or knowledge or publicity with which it was pursued.

Did I enjoy the book? Yes, I did, although I found it to be more that a little unsettling.


Edited by Pika (12/17/07 11:23 AM)

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#54915 - 12/17/07 12:28 PM Re: Into the Wild (The Story of Alexander Supertramp)
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
I read the book some time ago and I just saw the movie yesterday. I feel for his family and the needless loss of such a young life saddens me.

But this article sums up my opinion. The only exception is, based on his apparent passion for life, I don't think Chris really wanted to die.

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#54916 - 12/17/07 01:00 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Earthling]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Phat, ya' know what I'm talking about eh? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Can you say Greenhorn <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I guess as someone who butchers his own game, it rubs me the wrong way when someone starves to death when they can manage to whack a caribou, but doesn't know enough basic field dressing to quickly get the meat off the bones and smoking so it spoils. Not to mention everything else.. That's what I call dying of Ignorance.
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#54917 - 12/17/07 10:54 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Pika]
billk Offline
member

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 1196
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Pika, as usual, your comments are intelligent and insightful. Wouldn't surprise me if you've got some of that mental illness yourself <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Edited by billk (12/17/07 10:54 PM)

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#54918 - 12/18/07 06:16 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: billk]
jshannon Offline
member

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 410
Loc: North Texas
lmao
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#54919 - 12/18/07 09:50 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: phat]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
Like I said Phat, greenhorn! I've seen the same thing in spike camps where the guy with all the whizbang guns 'n gear does'nt know how to dress out the game he's killed <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I think that a course in it should be mandatory in gun classes for hunting licenses; just so game is'nt wasted by folks who don't know <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> If you're too sqeamish to dress your game, then you have no business shooting it in the first place IMO. I'd say a good 80% or better of the US population has never seen, let alone slaughtered, their own meat or even fish <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#54920 - 12/18/07 06:28 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Earthling]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Like I said Phat, greenhorn! I've seen the same thing in spike camps where the guy with all the whizbang guns....


Trouble is they also can't shoot worth crap either usually - exacerbated by the whizbangness (or should I say extrabangness) of the calibre they're shooting since everyone knows that if you shoot at a critter with a gun that doesn't take your shoulder off, you must have the smallest male equipment on the planet, and all the wee little forest creatures will laugh at your insiginficant equipment and make you
feel all girly...

Forget just dressing it.. Butcher it too. I haven't found a butcher yet that'll treat wild game with
any respect. I just do it myself. tastes better after.
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
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#54921 - 12/18/07 06:43 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: phat]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Speakin of Girly, now yer dressing up dead animals? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Geez guys.

I remember the squirrel I hit with a 180 grain boat tail from a 30-30. I didn't have to "dress it". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> There was 4 legs, the back, a tail and 4 clawed feet. I still have the tail. Just remove feet and tail and hold over fire on stick. That was in Alaska where meat was hard to get, and man are alaskan squirrels lean!

A real man hunts with a .22 looooong rifle... <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#54922 - 12/18/07 06:58 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Jimshaw]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I am going to try snaring rabbits this winter. I would like to try squirrel with a 22. Also rabbits with a 22. I understand the best time to shoot rabbits here (Varying Hare) is in an Eastern Cedar grove after a few frosts but before any snow, as they are then white against the brown backdrop. But I really want to try snaring first. So far I have eaten deer, moose, caribou, rabbits but I haven't shot anything yet, other than partridge. I don't intend to go after large game until I have more experience with the smaller game, and get a larger fridge. Feel like a kid starting life over. I think another advantage of butchering your own meat, bigger stuff I mean, is that you are less likely to get cross-contamination. Just a theory. Beer is also easier that way when first starting out.

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#54923 - 12/18/07 07:07 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: JAK]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I vaguely recall reading something about sub-sonic and super-sonic and air temperature in winter but I can't remember what the relevance was. Interesting stuff though. Anyhow, my buddy told me an interesting thing about snaring Varying Hare is that when the temperature gets down around 0F you have to make the loop bigger because the bunny's ears are frozen. Interesting eh. I wonder how they can let them freeze and thaw without falling off like a true rabbits would. The other thing he mentioned was to set the snare higher off the ground when there has been enough snow that there is no longer food near the ground as the rabbit will then run with his head up higher. What else? Oh yeah. Not so much luck on a full moon as they can see the snare. Much to learn from such activities I think, that you might not learn about these fellow creatures otherwise.

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#54924 - 12/18/07 07:36 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Jimshaw]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Speakin of Girly, now yer dressing up dead animals? <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Geez guys.


Of course we dress 'em.. you have do that when you Hunt Moose <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote:

I remember the squirrel I hit with a 180 grain boat tail from a 30-30. I didn't have to "dress it". <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> There was 4 legs, the back, a tail and 4 clawed feet. I still have the tail. Just remove feet and tail and hold over fire on stick. That was in Alaska where meat was hard to get, and man are alaskan squirrels lean!


A couple years ago my son and daughter were along and we'd spent the morining kicking bush, and on the way back my son and I put up a grouse that sat and looked at us. No .22 along as my son likes birds, and wouldn't shoot any. I had no such compunctions as lemon roughed grouse works reall good in camp. Now I know *exactly* where the 'ol .06 will go at 10 meters so I put the scope an inch over it's head and BANGO -- bird does the flop flop flop - just like they do when you take the head off. My son (who was of course saying "miss miss miss") says "darn". I walked up to pick up the bird and was never so suprised as to have the thing suddenly sit up and look at me right at my feet, then fly off! right from me feet!

I've shot tons of grouse like that, near as I can tell I must have just missed his head and the sonic crack from the bullet going by concussed him.. If he'd woken up 2 seconds later I'd have been wringing his neck.. Ya should have heard my son cheer as that bird went up...

Anyway, I'm sure I couldn't repeat that shot if I tried, but I'm kinda glad it turned out that way <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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#54925 - 12/18/07 10:15 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: phat]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Phat
Please forgive me <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I was target shooting in the Sierras with my .44 super blackhawk. I saw a grouse in the bushes so I switched to snake shot and shot the grouse at about 30 feet on the ground, but it ran into the bushes. Anyway I ended up chasing it and shooting 4 times (hitting it each time) until a round at point blank range killed it, I should have wrung its neck instead, but I was so shocked that a 1 pound bird took 4 .44 loads. The bird was full od lead shot - couldn't eat it afterwards.

The squirrel was above me at close range in a tree and I put the sights on his ear.
Jim <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#54926 - 12/19/07 05:12 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Jimshaw]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
And that Jim is why I shoot a .22 over under shotgun. If I see a bigger critter it gets the big load, something smaller gets the .22. I still hunt small game with a slingshot, rabbit, squirrel, etc. No lead = more food value.

I'm with you Phat, I swear I hit a B'quail dead in the head one day; walked over to it and it got up like a drunk and wobbled around then headed straight for the briar patch never to be seen again. Of course it was a marble shot with the ol' slingshot, but still <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, the bigger the caliber the farther I stay away from THOSE type hunters. If you place your shot properly you don't need a safari rifle caliber IME <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
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#54927 - 12/19/07 06:53 PM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Earthling]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods

Earthling,
Your story about the quail reminded me of a time I was hunting pheasant. I had shot one (I thought) and saw him go done about 30-40 yards away. I walked over and found him in some heavy cornstalk brush (still alive). I reached down to grab him and and he exploded out of that brush flapping and cackling. Scared the pooh out of me! I pointed my finger at him, shouted BANG, and said to my buddy, "There flies a dead bird".

I don't know if I had barely winged him or what, but he flew strong and kept on going.

What a day that was! I was kidded about that shot all weekend.

Tango

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#54928 - 12/20/07 09:15 AM Re: Into the Wild [Re: Tango61]
Earthling Offline
member

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 3228
Loc: USA
That'll do it! You probably 'feathered it' as we say in the East; and the concussive stunned him momentarily....then WHOOSH! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> Sadly, the ground nesters like ringtail and bobwhite have diminished greatly IME in the NE since the late 1970's <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I think cold damp Springs, and tons more feral critters have led to their demise.
_________________________
PEPPER SPRAY AIN'T BRAINS IN A CAN!

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#54929 - 03/04/08 09:16 PM Re: Into the Wild (The Story of Alexander Supertra
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
My son and i went to see the movie the other day and, lo and behold, my boy called it : " Dad...he was a spoiled moron, but i can understand why he did it. Just not the WAY he did it". This from a kid who has told everyone that he's been " dragged into the woods since birth"...against his will . Makes me feel like i did an o.k. job ...so far <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> As for what he carried in his pack? Probably the same as in his head...air! He lived off the generosity of others until his luck ran out in a big way.


Edited by bigfoot2 (03/06/08 10:09 AM)
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#54930 - 03/05/08 06:22 PM Re: Into the Wild (The Story of Alexander Supertra [Re: bigfoot2]
DayStar Offline
member

Registered: 08/26/07
Posts: 15
Loc: Utah
Quote:
Dad...he was a spoiled moron

Pretty well sums up what I think him, 'cept I'd use a few more adjectives in addition to moron

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