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#27688 - 07/08/05 09:59 AM What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


An informal poll: How many of you think it's okay to hike with a dog?

I have a friend that always hikes with her German Shepherd, which makes sense for a single woman in an area of cougers and bears. I have another friend who thinks dogs just shouldn't be allowed in the wilderness. I suppose they can be noisy, chase wildlife, and harrass other hikers, but then humans do those things too. I don't have a dog, by the way. Just curious how people feel about the issue.

Steve

www.TheUltralightBackpackingSite.com

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#27689 - 07/08/05 10:45 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I always bring my dog(s). They fit into the wilderness better than we do. Yes, they can be a problem, but so can horses, llamas, goats, mules, boy scouts, mobs of Sierra Clubbers, hunters, boom boxes, and many individuals. So if we want to eliminate all the annoyances in the wilderness, dogs would not be the first to go.

I would say of all the encounters between my dogs and other people I have only had one negative one. And this guy was just looking for a reason to be angry, which I admit my dog gave him. No harm was done. In fact I think the guy left happy because all he wanted to be was angry. Trail rage - pretty much the same as road rage, except a lot rarer.

Having dogs and walking them twice a day in town I have found that there are people who object to dogs just because they are looking for something to object to. The whole "hate the other" thing. If it wasn't dogs it would be something else. Fortunately, for each one of those, there are 10 who just love to meet the dogs.

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#27690 - 07/08/05 10:54 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
There's a lot of feelings about this. See this thread:
http://www.backpacking.net/forums/showth...sb=5&o=
I think it's hard to answer your question.
-Barry

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#27691 - 07/08/05 11:14 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Dogs are very cool to hike with. I say the heck with those that whine about people hiking with them. It's bad enough all the laws in the city prohibiting them from public parks, there will always be someone that has a problem with dogs being there. I pay them no attention.

I miss my girl so much. I will have another one soon...

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#27692 - 07/08/05 12:30 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
I take the bait.

This thread brings to mind some of my experiences.

Once I was taking a nap in my tent while taking shelter from an afternoon thunder storm. A dog peed on my tent and I yelled, but by the time I could unzip and exit the tent I got just a quick glimpse of the offender. Never did see the owner.

One time I was at an overlook and saw two dogs chasing a herd of deer over a ridge. When I met the owners I told them their dogs had been chasing deer. They told me that their dogs are under voice command and that they had them in sight the whole time. Denial is not a river in Africa.

After an over night storm a small stream was very cloudy. I found a pool that was clear and started to carefully filter water so as not to disturb the silt on the bottom. Two black labs bounded down the stream bank and proceeded to take a swim. Dog hair and spit was everywhere and the mud gushed up from the bottom. The owners were happy to see the dogs enjoying the water.

Early one morning I was passing a camp near the trail. A dog blocked my path and appeared to be ready to defend his masters. The normal techniques for passing were not working so I yelled for the owner. The owner called the dog and he ran off. I think the dog was as relieved as I was. Never did see the owner.

I like dogs, but some dog owners allow their pets to become a problem.

Dogs are an imported predator and I am sure the indigenous predators notice that dog mark territory. I think a tamarisk is a beautiful tree , but it competes with the indigenous trees and is considered a weed. The presence of an imported predator is a potential problem for the indigenous predators.

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#27693 - 07/08/05 01:58 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Ender Offline
member

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 779
Loc: ME
I say as long as the dogs are under strict control, it's fine. Dogs that don't obey commands, attack wildlife, plunge headfirst into drinking water sources should be trained and then allowed into the woods. And if they can't be trained they shouldn't be out there. Well behaved dogs though are wonderful trail companions. Granted, every dog will misbehave once in a while, but the same can be said for hikers.

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#27694 - 07/08/05 03:10 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


My grandparents hiked much of North and South America through the 50's - 70's (they had packs that Kelty made in his garage, 30 years later he hand-made another set for them). In the later years, they usually had their dog, a husky/wolf mix. Well trained, they only came into conflict twice with open range ranchers about livestock problems. Other than that, a great trail mate and the first dog I ever saw with a pack.

Dogs may be no worse or better than kids, or adults for that matter. I always prefer polite, considerate, consientious contact over rude, self absorbed individuals. A well trained dog is not a problem for me in the wilderness. Anyone or anything that is out of control on the trail is not welcome around me.

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#27695 - 07/08/05 03:19 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


i have a german shepard as well and he always comes along with me. makes me feel safer and keeps me company.

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#27696 - 07/08/05 06:06 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think it depends on the dog and it depends on the owner. If both are well trained I think dogs are fine. I little bit of common sense goes a long way. I actually stop and thank people who make a point to separate their dog from me or pull off the trail when we pass by each other. On the other hand I constantly see people walking their dog off lead and when I tell them that is actually against the law their only reply is "Don't worry he's obedience trained."

So I would say if the dog is going to be on a leash, not barking incessantly, not invading anyones space and not bringing any harm to the wilderness, why not bring it along.

As long as I have been hiking and backpacking I have never known a dog to leave a beer can or a cigarette butt on the trail. I also haven't seen them throw garbage all over a pristine beach or carve their name into a tree or write grafitti on a rock.

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#27697 - 07/08/05 07:28 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: ringtail]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
Dogs are an imported predator and I am sure the indigenous predators notice that dog mark territory. I think a tamarisk is a beautiful tree , but it competes with the indigenous trees and is considered a weed. The presence of an imported predator is a potential problem for the indigenous predators.


What are humans? Perhaps they shouldn't be allowed on the trail, either.


Edited by Paddy_Crow (07/08/05 07:29 PM)

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#27698 - 07/08/05 07:58 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a dog and havent taken her hiking on any long trails yet but plan to this year. She can become somewhat aggresive when others come to close to our camp. But on hiking trails in just regular parks she has done ok with passing people and not giving them a second glance. I was told that the kind of dog that she is, is the problem.

She's an American Eskimo or Spitts as most people know them.

At the same time I always make sure that she is on a lead and when I see others approching I bring her in close to me
.
And I never allow people to approch her without me there. Not sure how she would respond.

This will be her first long hike and if it doesent work out on a trail with her she would not be going on any more.

I respect everyones space and would not want to upset people that don't like dogs.

But I either hike alone or with my kids and being female, it is just safer to have a trail dog.

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#27699 - 07/08/05 08:42 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Stargate,
You seem to be the smart dog owner - you realise that you put your dog in danger when you take him to the wilderness. It is a really bad idea to take a dog into lion/bear country because they will eat him, he will become an attractive nuisance unless he is a lion or bear dog bread. And if you let your dog run loose and he attacks someone carrying a gun they may blow his brains out in self defence. In most wilderness areas in California at least dog must be on a leash, and almost no one does it.
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27700 - 07/08/05 09:15 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Jimshaw]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I always keep her on a leash even just walking around town. I love my dog very much and one thing that bothers me is someone not caring enough to leash theirs.
At least if I keep her on a leash I know she will be ok. I do worry about someone elses dog attacking her.

I have had to pick her up over my head to keep other dogs from fighting with her. Not fun with a pack on.

And no they are not going after her for that. She has been fixed. I didnt want to cause any unwanted animals to turn up because of any odor.

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#27701 - 07/09/05 04:22 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
jonnycat Offline
member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 363
Loc: PNW
I almost always take my dog; he's my loyal scout, my buddy, and my companion. His eyes and ears alert me to things I cannot sense myself. Earlier this year he helped me find several trails that were covered in snow, which I wasn't able to find by myself.

He makes backpacking and spending time in the woods an absolute pleasure for me, as much as it is for him. You just can't beat the bonding experience of being with your dog in the woods.

As far as the question of "is it okay?", I would say of course it is okay, assuming a well behaved dog who respects his or her handler, of course.

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#27702 - 07/09/05 08:12 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Given the history of man with dogs, it is quite appropriate that we take them on camping and on hikes. The only time my Grandfather left his dog home on hunting and fishing trips was when he was quiting smoking and the dog has enough sense to let him go alone. I don't have a dog but I sure wish I had a lifestyle where I could do one justice. My wife is alergic so it would have to be a big outside dog so that it could keep me company in the dog house. It the dogs that hang out in the yard all day and bark and chase bicycles or runners that give me grief. If they are trained to stay on the property I don't mind the barking. If they they are not on a leash and they leave their property and bite at my legs that is the sign of a very neglectful owner. The people that take their dogs on walks and hikes tend to be very good people and so are their dogs. The ones that are not on a leash usually respond right away unless they are young and still in training. The less manageable ones tend to be on leashes unless their is a lot of traffic. Quite often the owner apologizes for not having it on a leash and I just smile and say thats OK I'm not on a leash either and compliment them on their great dog.

Some of my favourite breeds:

Irish Wolfhound - For some reason these sort of hounds always come in pairs.
Way too much dog for me but they are truly magnificient beasts. You would have to be a very good trail runner and a fastpacker as opposed to a thru-hiker. You really don't want to load down a hound, and you couldn't carry more that a days worth for both of them. Mind you, you could cover an aweful lot of ground in one day if you could keep up. I am not sure what dog would have the record for distance in one day but I think a good set of hound could run down a husky as long as there was no sled involved. I think a human in top shape can out distance most animals in 24 hours, even a horse, but most of us are not in that kind of shape.

Newfoundland Dog - More of a winter and water dog. More than capable of carrying all of his food, and some of yours also if you can afford to pay for it all. Not practical for a thru-hiker on a budget, but a great dog for keeping you warm at night. If you are on skis he can pull you along if you are being left behind.

Nova Scotia Duck Toller Retriever - Excellent all around companion. Great for day hikes, ultralight long hikes, hunting and fishing or just camping. Perhaps not so good in deep snow. I think this breed is part native. Any similar medium sized long legged indian looking dog would be ideal for thru-hiking. They even have the look of a thru-hiker.

Dogs for protection against bears? I am not in real bear country. We have Black Bears but they tend to by small and very shy. I wouldn't want a real aggressive bear dog, but the sort of small indian dog that would keep its distance and warn you if there was a bear and sacrifice itself for you or your child if it had to might be worth considering in real Bear country. I am not a Bear or Dog expert. Does this work in real Bear country?

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#27703 - 07/09/05 10:36 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2838
Loc: Portland, OR
Every dog owner is keenly aware of the benefits of taking their pet into the woods, both for themseves and for the dog. This comes naturally to them. I would never dispute those benefits.

Where some dog owners fail is in seeing the problems their dogs can cause for the animals, plants and other hikers in the woods - and in taking full responsibility for either averting those problems before they happen or fixing them after they've happened. Instead, they rationalize them as not problems or else they stop at continually apologizing for their dog's behavior and never doing anything more effective beyond that.

Dog owners who engage in rationalizations and denials are untrainable. Good dog owners are a joy to meet in the woods.

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#27704 - 07/09/05 03:14 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: JAK]
PerryMK Offline
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1153
Loc: Florida panhandle
Ember is a shelter shepherd. This is a shepherd mix one meets at an animal shelter.

This Dog Backpacks And Emails

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#27705 - 07/09/05 04:08 PM Keep Your Dog's Health in Mind
longhair29 Offline
member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 1328
Loc: Floridad
From all my previous hiking experience in the wilderess encountering a Dog has been mixed.

Way back in '86 on my Thru hike (solo) of the Lost Coast down in N. CA. I had two completely different Dog encounters, one mean and the other really nice. The former involved two possibly wild dogs, i.e., no owner in sight and the latter an escapee. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In the 1st incident, no other people were in around when I was walking on this beautiful, rugged, sandy beach with my big Pack on and saw these two dogs sprinting towards me. At about 20-yards they slowed down to a walk, and I could see they were acting kind of aggressive towards me.

I did two smart things really fast. One, I picked up the biggest piece of driftwood stick I could find in the immediate vicinity of where I stood. And Two, I made a hasty bee-line trot down close to the ocean water's edge to get on FIRM sand. I was thinking if I'm attacked I want every advantage I can get. And with the Pacific
ocean at my back, that would be one less avenue of possible attack.

The second I picked up that stick, their demeanor changed somewhat as they knew I was armed, as we had made eye contact.

Anyway, with one hand on the stick and my left hand reaching out, and talking in a low tone, one Dog would walk up to me gently but as soon as the Dog saw I had that stick he got all aggressive like.

Never were their tails up and they never wagged their tails. I'm convinced IF I hadn't picked up that stick when I did, I'd have been attacked for sure.

So, I'm doing this 'reach out and talk and one Dog backs off bares it's teeth rountine' went on for perhaps 120-seconds and then 'snap your fingers' and both Dogs turned tail and ran full bore back into the woods. It was as, if someone was calling 'em with a Dog whistle or something, but of course there was virtually no sound heard.

The other Dog experience on my Solo trip was this German Shepard mix/Mutt came ambling into my campsite just a few miles N. of Shelter Cove (cilivization = end of trail) and curled up beside me the entire evening enjoying my bonfire. The next morning he'd vanished. Probably had breakfast waiting for him at the ranch.

My 'other' Dog encounters have been mixed as well. The only other negative one was with an ex. GF who had a Golden Retriever who totally ruined our Bkpack trip as the darn thing was a true addicted stick chaser. It took me the longest.... time to stop throwing it sticks!

Then it barked all bloody night long, I was dreaming of a noose for it. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I wanted to address two things here about Dogs in the wilderness that seem to always get missed in discussions.

Fully 90 percent of the Dog Owners who hike togetther with their pal in the wilderness don't have a clue about their Dog's well being, and safety. And I'm not talking about running into people here.

It can be 90-degrees out, hiking up a steep trail with no shade in sight and people don't even carry any extra H2o for their pooch. And the poor thing is ready to pass out, tongue hanging low, looking pitifull.

Oh, and let's don't forget idiots who take their Chihahau out on a narly rocky trail that is tough enough on boots let alone un-protectied Dog pads!

How many 'wilderness' Dog owners on these forms even bother to carry a Vet' approved First Aid Kit specifically for their pooch?

It's total B.S. to think that a Dog who's lived most ot it's llife in a city apartment or surburia is naturally ready for walking trails with you in the backcounty just because it's a Dog. This really burns me up to see people abusing their beloved pooch in this way. Think about your animal's health for heavens sake.

And how many Dog owner's carry eXtra food and snacks for their pet on a dayhike? Just like us humans, a Dog needs snacks (and a Lunch) throughout the day to keep it's energy level UP.... or no wonder duh, they look like a rag doll on the hike out and feel every pain too.

Lastly, I believe too many Dog owners don't take responsibility for their pet's behavior both IN the wilderness and at home.

I'm not against Dogs in the wilderness. I just would like to see owners be smart about it and carry the right stuff for their pet, treat their Dog the same way you would pack the Ten Essentials for yourself.

If you take your Dog hiking with you, that's way cool. Especially for your Dog as they will love you for that day.

But please pack:

Extra Water and a Water Bowl www.granitegear.com

Doggie Snacks and eXtra Food

Vet approved (certified) Dog 1st Aid Kit.



Edited by longhair29 (07/09/05 04:23 PM)

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#27706 - 07/09/05 08:02 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: PerryMK]
jonnycat Offline
member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 363
Loc: PNW
Quote:
Ember is a shelter shepherd. This is a shepherd mix one meets at an animal shelter.

This Dog Backpacks And Emails


Perry, Ember is a very happy looking dog. In the spirit of putting a face to our canines, here is a picture of my faithful companion, Sam.

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#27707 - 07/10/05 08:17 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think it's okay as long as its leashed. Yes, leashed. And no, it's not cruel to put an animal on the leash. It's common sense, really.

I've owned 2 German Shepherds. One was so scared of everything, except thunder and lightning, that she would only want to go out when it was time for a bathroom break. The other was so overprotective that she couldn't be taken out for fear that she would eat everyone in sight. Neither one would have made a good trail dog. So, common sense said they stayed home.

I had a dog encounter on the trail last week. I just finished a long downhill, rounded a corner and up runs a collie-mutt mix. It stopped and looked at me. I thought, "Oh, great!" About then I heard a voice bellow the dog's name. The dog dropped to its belly and stayed there. It's owner strode around the corner and grabbed it by the scruff of its neck. He said, "Come on around. She won't bother you as long as I'm here." I walked by, said thanks and remarked, "It's good to have a friend in the woods, isn't it?"

And that was that.

I've only been charged by a dog just once in my life (so far). I had a newspaper route when I was 12. A mutt-mix charged me, baring teeth and growling, as I came to its owner's house to deliver the paper. As it came in range, I took off my carrier's bag, which was full of rolled up newspapers, wound up and gave the mutt a muzzle full of the local times and events. It slunked off growling. Never bothered me again.

The power of the press, I guess!

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#27708 - 07/10/05 09:03 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I just got a dog yesterday - haven't had a dog in 25 years. Shes part greyhound - could outrun a bear. I would never take this dog into lion country, much as I would enjoy camping with her. I read here about people wanting a dog that would sacrifice itslf for its family. If your dog jumped the bear to save you, would you abandon it and run, or stupidly try to get it back from the bear and then have $5000 worth of vet bills and $50,000 of your own medical bills? A lot of dogs are killed by lions in California, even within city limits.
Love your dog - leave em home.
25 years ago I took my dog camping in the Sierras and he was terrified - crawled into the tent and slept between us.
Jim just my 2 cents worth.
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27709 - 07/10/05 09:47 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Jimshaw]
paulj Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1603
Loc: Seattle
Quote:
I
Love your dog - leave em home.
25 years ago I took my dog camping in the Sierras and he was terrified - crawled into the tent and slept between us.


But don't forget that a dog is a pack animal, and you are the pack leader (at least in a well adusted pack). While you are off on your two day backpacking trip, what is the dog doing at home, or in the kennel?

I wonder whether that dog was really terrified, or just wanted to be with the pack. Mine prefers to sleep with his humans, whether at home or in camp.

Frankly I get a bit annoyed at 'leave your dog at home' messages, whether on forums or in park literature. My dog is not a toy or gear that I can just stash in the closet for the season. My dog's safety and well being is as much my concern if I have to leave it behind, as if I have it with me. So far it has been easier to care for my dog when he is with me, even if it means bypassing national parks on vacation trips.

paulj

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#27710 - 07/10/05 09:49 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Jimshaw]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Congratulations on your new dog. Hope you get out for lots of running with him.

I had the query about Bears and Dogs, but like I said I am not in real Bear country and we haven't had a verified sighting of the elusive or extinct Eastern Cougar in over 100 years. I was curious though if the right sort of dog would respond correctly if it smelled a bear. If it was just me I would say the correct response for the dog would be to outrun me, but if there was a child involved I would like to think the dog and I might make a better show of it.

We have only had one Black Bear attack in New Brunswick in the last 100 years that I know of. Ironically that was actually a woman out for a walk with her dogs in a place called Titusville not to far from where I hike. I think her dogs actually caused trouble rather than preventing it. Not sure. She survived but was mauled a bit. Most of our Black Bears don't get much bigger than 150# and they are rarely agressive. I am a little nervous because there is more Bear baiting going on as part of an increasing Bear Hunting industry and I wonder if that is actually making our Black Bears less safe. I think some guides might even be going a little early and a little heavy on the donuts to fatten up a prize. I think this really amounts to farming, which is pretty sick when you think about it.

Anyhow, my daughter is going on 6 and we are thinking about overnights. I am personally more worried about cars than bears but with my daughter I would like to be a little wiser. I think the right dog around here would be a good thing to have with a child, but it would have to be the right dog. Something cautious and protective but not agressive. Something like a Labrador Retriever, but maybe smaller and easier to keep fed. Labs tend to have hip trouble also. The biggest problem with taking dogs in the woods here is porcupines and they have to learn to avoid them. Dogs from PEI tend to get in trouble because there are no porcupines in PEI. Nova Scotia Duck Toller Retrievers are great little dogs. They have been bred to show off a bit (Tolling) but they also tend to be well behaved (Retrieving). I would think that any dog that looks like it might have been part North American Indian camp dog would be a very good dog. Much of this very interesting aspect of North American natural history has been lost unrecorded, but there are some exceptions here and there which the Nova Scotia Duck Toller Retriever may be a small part of.

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#27711 - 07/10/05 10:02 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: paulj]
longhair29 Offline
member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 1328
Loc: Floridad
[quote]My dog's safety and well being is as much my concern.[quote/]

So does this mean that you carry a Vet approved Dog 1st Aid Kit, Doggie Snacks, (enough for all day and for emergencies), and a water bowl when you take your Dog hiking with you?

Unless you do, your statement is invalid...period.

So many people are totally naive because they think any Dog is naturally up to hking all day on rocky trails with no previous conditioning for the Dog's foot pads.

Jimshaw's advice is smart, not ALL Dogs are appropiate for hiking with people in the wilderness.

And training both your Dog and yourself 'ought to be mandatory. For both your safety.

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#27712 - 07/10/05 10:33 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
WildMan Offline
member

Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 271
Loc: GA
Why hike with dogs at all ?

Where is the benefit ?

1) Are you lonely ? Do not hike alone !
2) Do not exercise them enough at home ? Hey, walk them more at home !
3) Need protection ? There are better options than putting your "friend" on the line !

There are enough of us who do not appreciate your canine "friend",
so why not just leave the dog at home for the weekend.

Unless you are just plain confrontational and are willing to deal with the stress and anxiety that may occur, during outings which are meant to be stress relieving and relaxing for EVERYONE !

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#27713 - 07/10/05 11:24 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: WildMan]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Quote:
Why hike with dogs at all ?

Where is the benefit ?

1) Are you lonely ? Do not hike alone !
2) Do not exercise them enough at home ? Hey, walk them more at home !
3) Need protection ? There are better options than putting your "friend" on the line !

There are enough of us who do not appreciate your canine "friend",
so why not just leave the dog at home for the weekend.

Unless you are just plain confrontational and are willing to deal with the stress and anxiety that may occur, during outings which are meant to be stress relieving and relaxing for EVERYONE !
Really depends on where you live. Obviously not everyone should have a dog. The idea is certainly not to go out and buy a dog just for bear fodder and body warmer. The idea is to combine two lifestyles if you are already predisposed to both of them, and then choosing the right dog accordingly. For protection I mean that a dog and its owner companion should be of mutual benefit rather than a mutual liability in whatever lifestyle they have adopted. That is the real test as with any other relationship. As far as dogs and other people that depends on where you go hiking. Where I hike there are very few people. In the off season there are no people. When I do see a dog, they don't bother me. I think it is good that they have gotten out with their owner companions. The right dog would be perfect for the hiking that I do, just would not fit in with the rest of my life so I don't have one. If I retire or had a lifestyle that I could spend the time with a dog that they deserved then I would take it pretty much everywhere. It really depends on where you live. If that means living some place and avoiding people that don't like having dogs around so much the better.

Now there are times to leave a dog home or at a kennel, just as there are times to leave the kids at home or with a sitter. I just think it should be the exception and not the rule. A dog is a lifestyle, in many ways even more so than children. Children past a certain age are not meant to be with you all the time. A dog is really meant to be with you all the time like an infant or toddler. 100%. Not achievable, but that is the ideal. Dogs are really for solitary woodsmen and traditional sheep farmers, and also for children when we lived in a world where when school was out you spent all your time with your dog and you both went the whole summer without wearing shoes. I never had a dog but I had a cat that followed me on my paper route and met me at my bus stop every day. It would sit on my homework when it knew I had done enough. Dogs are not for children that watch TV or have after school schedules. Dogs are not for office workers dreaming of a simpler life, they are for people who are able to choose and live a simpler life.

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#27714 - 07/10/05 11:55 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: WildMan]
RenMan Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 134
Loc: Yellow Springs, OH
[quote]Why hike with dogs at all ?

Where is the benefit ?[quote]

LOL, If you must ask this question, I beg you, never get a dog.
_________________________
"Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing at all."
-Helen Keller

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#27715 - 07/10/05 12:22 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: WildMan]
jonnycat Offline
member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 363
Loc: PNW
Quote:
Why hike with dogs at all ?
There are enough of us who do not appreciate your canine "friend",
so why not just leave the dog at home for the weekend.

From my experience there are actually very few people like you in the backcountry. Maybe people here are more tolerant of others than where you live, or maybe the dog owners are more responsible, or maybe a combination of both, I don't know.

It certainly sounds as if you have had some traumatic encounters with dogs, though. .

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#27716 - 07/10/05 02:25 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Paddy Crow,

One guy I hike with sometimes brings his girl friend's dog. We see much more wildlife without the dog. I like to think that I am a fearsome apex predator, but I don't seem to intimidate the wildlife. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I have also had very positive experiences with dogs on the trail. On a 2004 Colorado Trail section hike I was passed by a dog and a woman leading a mule. I was eating a mid-morning snack about 20 feet off the trail and the dog arrived first. I spoke to the dog and held out the back of my hand. It looked at me as if to say "I am a working dog in charge of security and you apparently have me confused with a household pet." I was inspired by the way the dog, woman and mule worked together as a team.

Close to trailheads you are likely to find humans and dogs misbehaving, but in remote areas there is seldom a problem with humans or dogs. High density seems to incease undesirable human behavior.

My experiences are probably part of the reason that dogs are not allowed in most National Parks and are required to be on leash in my local Wilderness Areas. I believe that virtually every dog owner in this Forum is responsible and does not cause problems on the trail.

I think longhair's comments about what the owner needs to do for the dog was on target.


Edited by food (07/10/05 02:27 PM)

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#27717 - 07/10/05 03:12 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have two dogs, both are schutzenhund trained animals. There's no way I'd put those dogs on a leash in the back country. The dogs will respond to my commands, they will be at heal unless I tell them not to be, and off leash if I tell them to attack, stay, heel or run they'll do what I say -- making it safer for them and me.

On a leash they're in danger of choking should I fall, or something would happen to them where they got caught on underbrush.

Proper training is required. A leash is not.

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#27718 - 07/10/05 03:17 PM Re: Keep Your Dog's Health in Mind [Re: longhair29]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Keep in mind that if you've got a pack on, there's no reason your dog shouldn't as well.

I've yet to backpack with my dogs, but I've done plenty of long day hikes with them. They have no problem carrying their gear, food and water on their own backs.

Of course, they're also very well trained, very in-shape dogs. If you're going to take a dog on a backpacking trip, start with long walks about the house, and build up to long day-hikes, before putting in a multi-day trek.

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#27719 - 07/10/05 03:27 PM Off Leash?
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Kopefire,

I do most of my hiking in the local county Open Space and federal Wilderness Areas. Both require dogs to be on leash.

When I drive to the trailhead and hike it appears that about the same percentage of people think the speed limits and leash laws are for other people.

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#27720 - 07/10/05 03:46 PM Re: Off Leash? [Re: ringtail]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I honestly don't care about the law in this instance. A leash on a dog in the wilderness is a danger to the dog. I understand the reason for the law -- because far too many people fail to train and control their dog.

A well trained dog is not a danger to other hikers and will not be wandering off chasing animals. Endangering the dog's safety for no reason beyond "it's the law" is being a poor owner.

I'll pay the ticket. It's a stupid law. A much better law would be that the owner had to demonstrate control of the animal at all times. But that would require our legal system be staffed by people capable of using judgement beyond answering a set of "yes/no" questions.

If you think that makes me a poor owner, so be it. But I guarantee if you ever see my dogs on the trail they'll be at my feet, in a proper heel. You can walk right by them a foot away and they won't even turn their heads to sniff at your trail when you pass.


Edited by Kopefire (07/10/05 03:50 PM)

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#27721 - 07/10/05 05:41 PM Re: Off Leash?
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Kopefire
You're not the problem, its the people who have totally untrained unobedient dogs that ARE required to use leashes. You are unfairly lumped with those that cannot train and control their animals. Unfortunately in this case its the many that ruin it for the few...

Still the dangers to your pet when leave the trailhead are many and very real even if you do not hike in lion or bear country and of course there are places where taking a dog camping is not a big deal. My dog is part greyhoud and goes from zero to 150 mph in about half a second. She is so fast that she might even catch something and then get bit by it.

BTW there are bear dogs and they use them in Yosemite Park in the high camps to chase out bears, BUT in Alaska they say that the only natural preditor that bears ever had were huge wolves and that bears have an ancestral hatred for dogs. We were told that the very best way to get mauled was to bring a pomeranian into bear country and let it run into the bush - about a minute later it will come right back into your arms with 500 to 1000 pounds of hungry angry bear chasing it.

I believe that you are more apt to be attacked by wild animals with a dog than without one unless perhaps you have a pack of trained hunting dogs bred for the chase, but peoples city dogs are not street smart.

I have to admit that I do not have a doggy first aid kit and never even thought of it (only got the dog yesterday though). I have rudimentary first aid training but no vetrinarial experience. What would I do if my dog was ripped open? I carry a steril suture in my first aid kit so I could sew it up, but the animal would most likely go into shock.

I feel for those of you spend huge amounts of time on the trail with your dog - like what else would you do with it? So its take the dog or go it alone and I can see where a dog makes a good companion.

A story. I met a guy years ago who hiked the PCT starting in Mexico the day after christmas and finished up in Canada in June. He said he hiked with a dog and hunted with a bow and traveled the trail in the winter living off the land. The last morning he put his pack on in his tent and got out of the tent and a grizzly bear hit him and threw him quite a ways. The bear would have ripped him open had it not been for the pack on his back. His dog jumped the bear which ripped the dog in half but gave my friend the time to string his bow, nock an arrow and put it through the bruins heart - instant death. He probably would not have been attacked if he didn't have the dog. The dog gave his life even though his human was an armed and expert hunter.

I think I've decided that with the number of lions in the country where I camp (high Sierras), that I AM going armed in the future if I take my dog, my wife or my camping girlfriends. I hate to admit it but ultralite camping means I can carry a 48 ounce .44 magnum and still be under 20 pounds. I hate to scare people but handguns are supposed to be unconcealed and a shoulder holster is the best way to carry a big gun, I look like dirty Harry backpacking. ANyway as somebody once said - anybody who can hit a running lion or bear in the ten ring already owns their gun and is already an expert and if yer not an expert maybe you shouldn't take a gun and if you can't control your dog maybe you should leave him at home too.

Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27722 - 07/10/05 06:36 PM Re: Off Leash? [Re: Jimshaw]
Anonymous
Unregistered


You guys have said all that needs said. For me, furry friend or not, the pooch stays at home.

I used to hike in bear country up in Alaska. I kept a Smith & Wesson Model 29 .44 Magnum strapped to my hip. I looked like something out of the Old West. It was a pain and kept getting snagged on brush and whatnot. Down here in the Lower 48, ain't much call for it. So, I locked it up. And that's where its stayed for about the past 11 years.

As one of my old Alaskan buddies used to say, "Take someone who's slower than you when you're going into bear country." Still another liked to comment, "They only chew for so long..."

Peace!

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#27723 - 07/10/05 06:44 PM Re: Off Leash? [Re: Jimshaw]
paulj Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1603
Loc: Seattle
Quote:

We were told that the very best way to get mauled was to bring a pomeranian into bear country and let it run into the bush - about a minute later it will come right back into your arms with 500 to 1000 pounds of hungry angry bear chasing it.


Are there documented cases of dogs leading bears back to the humans or camp? I've seen such warnings in park literature (such as BC provincial parks), but I've wondered whether it is one of those things that is true just because everyone repeats it.

There was one hike several years ago when my small dog started acting nervously. We were in an area of tarns and lots of berry bushes in the Cascades. A few minutes later while snacking, I saw a small black bear scrambling up a slope on the other side of a small lake. My dog may well have smell it, or another bear.

On another occasion my dog (on leash) started pulling hard up the trail, as though he'd caught a scent. Before we rounded the next corner, I hear something crashing through the bush. It might have been a bear, though it could also have been a deer.

Frankly, I don't think a small dog like a pomeranian is going to wander too far off into the bush. If off leash my 15 lb terrier may follow the sound of a squirrel or chipmunk as short ways off the trail, but he doesn't go far. It is too much work. Still, if I have the least worry of him going far, or of there being predators in the area, I keep him on leash, even if rules don't require it.

I suspect, though, that cars (and urban dogs) are far more dangerous to dogs than bears and cats and coyotes.

paulj

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#27724 - 07/10/05 07:19 PM Re: Off Leash? [Re: ringtail]
paulj Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1603
Loc: Seattle
Some times leash laws make sense. But often they are administratively uniform rules, applied across the board whether they are needed or not.

British Columbia provincial parks abound with signs saying 'no alcohol or pets on beaches' or 'in day use areas'. This is true whether the beach is a heavily used one, or a remote patch of gravel that hardly sees any swimmers.

In most National Parks dogs are prohibited on trails, but in a near by town, dogs are prohibited from grassy picnic areas, but allowed on the trails.

Enforcement also varies widely. I know of a park that was a defacto 'off-leash' area, until someone got frightened by a dog or two and threatened to sue the city. Now the areas close to the street get an occasional patrol, but the backwoods trails are rarely used by anyone except dogs and their owners.

Since you likened leash laws to speed laws, I'll mention one speeding ticket that I got years ago on a Chicago freeway. When I appeared in court, the judge had a whole bunch of us stand up, he welcomed us to the '5 mph over' club, and dismissed our tickets. I obey leash laws in the same spirt as I obey speek limits.

paulj

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#27725 - 07/10/05 07:34 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: WildMan]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Quote:
Why hike with dogs at all ?

Where is the benefit ?

1) Are you lonely ? Do not hike alone !
2) Do not exercise them enough at home ? Hey, walk them more at home !
3) Need protection ? There are better options than putting your "friend" on the line !

There are enough of us who do not appreciate your canine "friend",
so why not just leave the dog at home for the weekend.

Unless you are just plain confrontational and are willing to deal with the stress and anxiety that may occur, during outings which are meant to be stress relieving and relaxing for EVERYONE !

Someone that doesn't have a dog, especially one that was specifically bred to be in the wilderness like a Weimaraner, just wouldn't understand. For me, the hike is infinitely more enjoyable when my best friend is with me. As for those that would prefer that I leave the dog at home, their opinion matters as much to me as mine does to them.

About the choking hazard for dogs on leashes, there are a lot of harnesses available that do not go around the neck. When my dog was sick with lymphoma, I took her regular collar off and used a shoulder harness. I honestly wish I'd discovered it years ago.

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#27726 - 07/10/05 07:57 PM Re: Off Leash?
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Kopefire, the leash laws aren't for people like you. I manage a park and hike the trail system just about every day. I've learned to carry a ski pole and pepper spray for the idiots who enjoy watching their pit bull terriors, terrorize folks. (happened to me twice) The morons who let their poodles run free....and end up in a neighborhood, lost. The dorks who let their German shepards bound down the trail and jump on unsuspecting hikers. The leash laws get ignored just the same...."oh, he won't bite"...yet. People reserve the right to remain stupid, I guess.
I do hike with a friend accompanied by a fully/multi certified SAR dog. A different story all together. This dog has more brains and manners than 80% of the humans who visit parks and uses no leash. That said, he and owner probably represent .0001% of dogs/owners. The leash laws are for the remainder.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#27727 - 07/11/05 12:09 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: JAK]
Hratch Offline
newbie

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 8
I think its fine. I would not recommend taking a dog on a week backpacking trip for the first time. As anything else you would start off by day hikes and so on.

If someone is worried about the waste the dog leaves.....they should first look at the mules and horses. A dog would not relieve himself in a creek, but you know dam well a mule will relieve himself anywhere, anytime.

Every time I drink some water out of a high sierra creek, I wonder if a bunch of mules had crossed the creek a 1/2 mile upcreek. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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#27728 - 07/11/05 04:54 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
tpdwr Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 45
Loc: So. California - Murrieta
The issue is dogs, not horses, mules or folks with bad manners. All problems, for sure, but now it's just dogs. Someone told me once that one of my first responsibilities with my dog was to protect other people from him. The only way I know someones dog is under control is if it's on a leash. I think we are all responsible for our behavior and how it affects others. If my actions are going to negatively impact someones wilderness experience, then I'll do something else.

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#27729 - 07/11/05 05:02 PM Re: Off Leash? - you bet [Re: Jimshaw]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Lions in the high Sierra? I have seen tracks once, early in the year when the dear were migrating over the passes. But mostly they stay in the low country. More food. I'm more likely to run into a cat in the outskirts of the coastal town I live in.

Besides they are stalkers. Your chances of ever getting a gun out to protect yourself is pretty small.

Over some 25 years of packing in the Sierra I have never had a bad encounter with a dog - not one. Nor have any of my dogs or my companions' dogs been a big problem. I wish I could say the same for some of the people I run into. Then there are the pack animals....

I keep leashes at hand, but only use them if I think there may be an issue with pack animals. Fortunately, the one dog I have who gets excited about strange encounters habituated to pack animals pretty quickly. He just had to be handled right. The one exception was our first llama encounter. It started out OK but then the llama started acting nervous. That time I had to put on a leash to be safe. But heck, seeing what llamas do to the pastures around here I'm not much inclined to like them myself. They are just another version of John Muir's hoofed locust.

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#27730 - 07/11/05 05:06 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: WildMan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you have to ask you'll never understand. That's the same thing I tell people who ask why I like to go into the wilderness.

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#27731 - 07/11/05 06:07 PM lions in the Sierra
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Mark,
I have had 2 medium sized lions walk into my camp unannounced. The first was on Mt Shasta near the tree line and I actually saw him first, but turning on my headlamp was enough - he was gone in .01 seconds.

The second lion (Grouse ridge off I80)would have attacled my wife and I in our tent and I could have gotten off a round of snake shot out the open door which would have scared him off without hurting him, however a lion who challenges humans in a tent needs a good lesson anyway. What I did do was jump up yelling and going at the tent door in a very aggressive pre-emptive attack. My philosophy is to attack first if possible - they are terrified of being attacked by a larger preditor or hurt by their prey - I think. They also really don't like to be seen.
Anyway you see a lot of lion tracks in the Sierras some only a hour or less old. One place we tracked a lion and 2 cubs tracking the backpackers ahead of us. They ARE there, but nobody sees them so nobody believes they ARE being watched. I'll tell you - if you light a campfire in the Sierras, you will bring animals for miles around to you, and the high end preditor will be there too. I have found fresh lion tracks 30feet from my tent, otherwise nothing.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27732 - 07/11/05 06:20 PM Re: Keep Your Dog's Health in Mind [Re: longhair29]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
You raise some interesting points about my dogs well being on the trail. I'm not to concerned about water and snacks, I have always looked after our needs that way. I actually started some time ago bringing along Nutrition Bars

Of particular concern, after reading your suggestions, was Casey's (woof, woof) first aid kit. He doesn't have one. The only things that he carries specific to him is some skunk shampoo, raincoat, and MuttLuk boots. I have always been of the belief that everything in my first aid kit could be used on him, and for the most part I think this is the case.

This is a list of things in a canine first aid kit:

* Gauze sponges -- 50 four-by-four inch sponges, two per envelope
* Triple antibiotic ointment
* Rubbing alcohol
* Ear syringe -- two ounce capacity
* Ace self-adhering athletic bandage -- three-inch width
* White petroleum jelly (Vaseline or similar)
* Eye wash
* Sterile, non-adherent pads
* Pepto Bismol tablets
* Generic Benadryl capsules -- 25mg, for allergies
* Hydrocortisone acetate -- one percent cream
* Sterile stretch gauze bandage -- three inches by four yards
* Buffered aspirin
* Dermicil hypoallergenic cloth tape one inch by 10 yards
* Hydrogen peroxide
* Kaopectate tablets maximum strength
* Bandage scissors
* Custom splints
* Vet Rap bandage

Other suggested items were:

* Blanket
* Tweezers
* Muzzle
* Hemostats
* Rectal thermometer
* Ziplock bags
* Paperwork, including the dog's health record, medications, local and national poison control numbers, regular veterinary clinic hours and telephone numbers, and emergency clinic hours and telephone number.

I will be adding a couple of things to our kit - eye wash syringe, muzzle. Everything else in my kit should work for him. Neither one of else will need a rectal thermomter on the trail, so that's not in the kit.

Thanks for bringing this issue to light longhair.


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#27733 - 07/11/05 07:50 PM Re: Keep Your Dog's Health in Mind [Re: Rick]
paulj Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1603
Loc: Seattle
Before going to the effort of collecting all this first aid gear (much less carrying it for a week) it would be a good idea to study a dog first aid book. There is little point in bringing items that you don't know how to use. Further more, the book will give you an idea of what problems to expect, which are best handled by prevention, which you can reasonably deal with while on a trip, and which only be handled with lots of skill and equipment or evacuation. Also what you might need on a day trip, or when you can get to help within a day, will be substantially less than what you will need if you are a week away from any help.

In my experience of owning a dog for 7 years, potentially useful items are:

Benadryl - children's liquid form may be better for dogs, especially small ones. However the stuff from your own first aid kit may do. Mine had an allergic reaction to one of his first vaccines, and needed benadryl to reduce the swelling.

ipecac - to induce vomiting in case of suspected poisoning. However I've only used this when the dog got into some chocolates at home.

poison ivy cleaner and lotion - I used this once while camping in northern Calif. when the dog started licking a paw after a hike. Stickers and thorns are a more likely cause of limping, and usually are easy to deal with. Oil (even cooking oil) is works for cleaning pine tar from paws.

wound treatments - I haven't had any serious problems in this regard. A larger dog did attack mine a few blocks from home, but only broke the first layer of skin in a few places. Mine also limped for a day or two. I suspect the main difference from human wounds is the amount of hair, which can complicate cleaning the area, and adhering bandages (hence the vet wrap).

stop bleeding powder - I've used this a couple of times when I trimmed a nail too far. I'm not sure if it would help with other bleeding.

stomach torsion - a potential serious problem in larger dogs. A neighbor had to rush his rottie to the vet a few weeks ago due to this problem. Field treatment is difficult. Since mine is small, I don't worry too much about this.

Most important the owner should be observant, noting anything out of the ordinary, or any attempt by the dog to deal with a problem. Check for a cause of limping right away. Give water both on a regular basis and when the dog tries to drink from any available source. Note the dog's attempts to cool off (resting in shade), or to warm up (curling up in a dry place).

paulj

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#27734 - 07/11/05 08:15 PM Advice from a Veterinarian and an AT 2000 miler... [Re: Rick]
RenMan Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 134
Loc: Yellow Springs, OH
... my wife.

We met on the AT in 98 at Neel's Gap, Ga. and have been together ever since. The thing that first drew us together was her awesome dog, a 10 year old Samoyed who by the time they were done had hiked 1700 miles of the AT.

There is no doubt in the mind of anyone who knew this dog, that she loved every moment of her many hikes.

General advice: A dog is a partner on trail, not a pet. Please remember that by choosing to take your dog, you are choosing to take full responsibility for the dog's well-being. This includes health, first aid, diet, and behaviour. Your dog trusts you as the leader of the pack. Please don't abuse that trust. Make the animal your first priority, over and above yourself, a cute new boy/girlfriend, or even the hike itself, and the two of you may have many miles of adventure to strengthen your lives together. I say that you "may" have many miles, because it is important to note that just as with people, NOT ALL DOGS ARE HIKERS. Take the time to find out if hiking suits your dog's personality.

Make sure to break the dog in to the experience at a reasonable pace. Long walks, then short hikes, leading to progressively longer hikes and finally overnighters are the way to go. Not only does this allow the dog to get into hiking shape, but it allows both of you to learn what it really means to be hiking partners. You also get a good opportunity to work out a reasonable pace, what gear works and doesn't, etc. It's also an excellent idea to train together (obedience classes) This gives the two of you a clear system of communication and can go a long way towards avoiding confrontations with some other hikers who don't like dogs so when they see you they get really rude because you aren't living life their way and they have a descending level of consciousness due to the fact that they aren't drinking enough water. Have your dog sit and stay, water them away from the water source, then politely try to get the bitter hiker to drink some water too. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Packs: Our dogs carry packs with their own food, meds, booties, halter collars, etc. Note: an empty dog pack is not a good idea, it will slip around and chafe MUCH more than a pack with gear in it, so in training start out light, but not empty. Take the time to fit the pack. Many gear shops will let you bring the dog in to try on the pack. You probably wouldn't use a pack without making sure it fits, why should the dog? And check it often, no matter how many miles it has been worn. Look for rubbing, hair loss, any signs that it may cause pain or discomfort, take steps to alleviate (moleskin, padding, sometimes you have to carry the pack for a day) Places to look when fitting: The strap under the belly. Make sure it doesn't rub across exposed skin or genitalia, nipples. Padded straps are better than not. Also check the chest strap to make sure it fits the chest and not the neck. Straps should be snug but not tight, two fingers should fit easily under the straps, but the pack should not easily slip around. Packs with mesh across the back are cooler than those with nylon. Finally, when you pack it ,and as you take items from it, care must be taken to ensure a balanced load.
A good resource is this shop in Asheville, N.C. : trailhound.com

Health Note: a dog will walk the protective pads right off of their paws until there is nothing but blood merely because you, the leader, are still hiking. It is imperative that you pay constant attention to the signals your dog is giving out. They will not shout,"Hey Jerkwad, Slow Down, I've got giardia here!" Learn your dog's language. A head tilt can mean something stuck in the ear. Licking the lips can mean thirst (whip out that extra platy bag that YOU carry JUST FOR THE DOG) tail down, slow pace, wandering attention are all signs that the dog is tired and not having a good time. Stop for a break, remove packs, snack, drink, play, check paws. If necessary, abandon your hike. Remember the dog is your highest priority.

First Aid: We carry very little that is dog specific. Just flea and tick preventative, heartworm meds for multimonth trips, and booties for foot protection and as makeshift foot bandages. Anything else we need is available in our kits, or we can improvise.
Do not give your dog human pain killers. Ibuprofen and Naproxen are TOXIC. Aspirin can be given, but really shouldn't be, so don't. IF YOUR DOG IS LIMPING GET OFF THE TRAIL. Rest, see a vet.

Food: We carry high protein Iams for large breeds. Nothing special, just extra food and some good treats and snacks.

Wildlife: Leashes help here, but there is always risk. It is the wilderness you know. As far as black bears go our experience is that they want nothing to do with you and the most you will see is a big black butt. Grizzly and Mt. Lions, well, we have no experience here, so we won't advise.

Misc: We put hunting bells from Cabela's on our dogs' collars. We also recommend having your dog microchipped in case they get separated. Blaze orange is a good idea in hunting season. Collars that have buckles are better than those that slip through a ring. Our dogs' really like their own sleep pad. We use a couple of sections of z-rest cut to fit.

That's all that comes to mind at the moment. If you have any specific questions, post them in this thread and I'll pass along my wife's answers. When getting advice from your Vet, pay attention, but try to find one knows hiking as well as dogs.

-RenMan, hiker
-Buttercup, DVM
-Boogerhead, traildog
_________________________
"Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing at all."
-Helen Keller

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#27735 - 07/11/05 08:24 PM Re: Keep Your Dog's Health in Mind [Re: paulj]
RenMan Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 134
Loc: Yellow Springs, OH
Great post Paul,

One note: Forget the Ipecac. If you need to induce vomitting in your dog, just use table salt. One tablespoon should do it. Tilt the dog's head back, open the mouth, and toss the salt to the back of the throat. Then hold the snout closed for a second to make sure they swallow it. Dog should vomit within a couple of minutes. If not, try a second dose, but this is almost never necessary. Be sure to investigate the vomit to see if you need to get the dog off the trail and to definitive care.

Usually, if a dog needs to vomit, they'll take care of it themselves by eating some grass, but occasionally, the salt is needed. We did this just last weekend in Jefferson National Forest when our dog ate something odd and began foaming at the mouth. He vomitted and was fine 10 seconds later.

Never figured out what he ate.
_________________________
"Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing at all."
-Helen Keller

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#27736 - 07/11/05 11:12 PM Re: Off Leash? [Re: Jimshaw]
longhair29 Offline
member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 1328
Loc: Floridad
Quote:
I hate to admit it but ultralite camping means I can carry a 48 ounce .44 magnum and still be under 20 pounds.


Jimshaw, are you paranoid or what? LMAO

Dirty Harry, hee, hee, that's choice!

P.S. Cute new doggie, he or she would be a tasty snack for Miss Puss. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#27737 - 07/12/05 09:59 AM thanks for the info [Re: longhair29]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Renman, Paul
thanks so much for the good info. I am a dog neophyte, funny even I can be a newbie at something!!!

I would never have thought of her paws being damaged and I spend a lot of time going cross country on bare granite above tree line. I also know nothing of dog first aid.

I wonder is it normal for a healthy dog to chew on grass a little? I think I need to spend a lot time with her before I can look at her and diagnose problems.

My dog is a cross breed with a lot of Dingo in her - she is an Aussie dog - a Queensland heeler mix. I learned that heelJimer means to nip at the heels of cows. Do you know how fast you have to be to do that without getting kicked? When we play if I quit and walk inside, she is right on my heel, not nipping, but with her head between my knees as I walk, and if I suddenly squeese my legs together she has already backed out of the way. Good breeding...

If I lived and camped somewhere safe for her I would take her, and I hope others do enjoy their dogs camping where its safe and cool, but I don't think I want to take her cross country with me, she would slow me down like a human partner and when I got to the solo rock climb, what would she do?
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27738 - 07/12/05 10:57 AM Aussie Cattle Dog [Re: Jimshaw]
paulj Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1603
Loc: Seattle
My impression is that an ACD could handle the rigors of a backpacking trip as well, if not better, than most dogs. They are neither too big, nor too small, and bred for a life outdoors in a hot climate. It will probably be better behaved if given some work - like a long hike - than if left at home bored.

Obviously the dog isn't going to handle rock climbing, but hiking over scree shouldn't be too much of a problem. I'm surprised how well my little Aussie (Terrier) can handle any climb that is more stair-like (as opposed to ladder-like).

I wonder if certain sizes, or breeds of dogs, are more likely to have abraded paw problems. Does the nimbleness of the dog matter?

A certain amount of abrasion is needed to keep a dog's nails trim, other wise you need to deal with that yourself. The kind of exercise that a dog gets at home may make a difference. One that only plays in a grassy backyard may have greater problems on a rock trail than one that regularly walks several miles on city sidewalks. I suspect that keeping a dog at a proper weight, well exercised, and with trimmed nails, will go a long way toward preventing paw problems on the trail.

My impression from seeing ACDs at off-leash parks is that they are the kind of dog that will tirelessly chase after a ball or frizby hours on end. On the trail, I wonder whether his herding instinct will result in exesive interest in wild animals, or whether he will be more interested in keep his pack (you and your companions) together. My terrier, for example, prefers to be in the middle of the group, and may hold back if one member lags behind.

paulj


Edited by paulj (07/12/05 03:12 PM)

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#27739 - 07/12/05 01:05 PM Re: Aussie Cattle Dog [Re: paulj]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have a 5 year old dingo/blueheeler and he is the best trail dog I have ever hiked with. Not only is he tireless, but he constantly scouts just ahead and finds the best routes through difficult terrain. On more then one occasion he has insisted that I follow him back to camp when he realized that I had wandered off the correct route. In camp or around el rancho, he is my shadow! He does look like a wild animal though, and I've had to tie a bright bandanna around his neck to let others know that he was someone's pet. Something about that dingo in him that makes him a little closer to a wild animal than a domesticated dog. This is not generally a problem as almost all my hiking is in areas where I'm pretty much assured of having no other visitors.

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#27740 - 07/12/05 03:33 PM dogs and grass [Re: Jimshaw]
paulj Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1603
Loc: Seattle
Grass eating, at least in moderation, is normal in dogs. Mine prefers in the tender spring tips. There is also mention of grass eating in descriptions of wolve's diet:
http://wolves.darkfallchronicles.com/whunt.php

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#27741 - 07/12/05 04:38 PM Re: Off Leash? [Re: Jimshaw]
paulj Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/03
Posts: 1603
Loc: Seattle
Quote:
BUT in Alaska they say that the only natural preditor that bears ever had were huge wolves and that bears have an ancestral hatred for dogs.


http://www.wolfsongalaska.org/pred_wolves_bears.htm
Is a description of wolves and bears living together in a British Safari park. If food competition is not part of the equation, it doesn't sound like there is an inherent animosity.

I also recall a nature program on a stretch of coastal BC rainforest showing both bears and wolves. The relations were not totally peaceful. In one incident a wolf pup that strayed from the pack was in some danger from a bear (of course bear cubs shouldn't come close to adult male bears either). Wolf scat also contained some bear dna.

http://www.savethegreatbear.org/theplace/Wildlife/wolves/

paulj

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#27742 - 07/12/05 06:28 PM Re: Off Leash? [Re: paulj]
Chongo Offline
member

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 1273
Loc: Upper Numidia
Apparently the re-introduction of wolves into Yellowstone has really helped the bears (and everything else in the eco system) -- in particular, the bears take over the wolves' kills, and they get healthier...
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#27743 - 07/12/05 07:20 PM Re: Off Leash? [Re: Chongo]
cat Offline
member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Alaska
My husband & I just got home from a 40 mile backpack with Mr. Dog. The biggest concern was packing enough dog food. He's a small Aussie & ended up eating 2 cups of food a day plus bones.

We would never consider a dog any protection in bear country & we live in Bear Country, Alaska USA. If anything, a dog can be a liability. We did run into a bear this trip, & the dog did alert us by his sniffing & body language that the bear was still traveling in front of us. But we sure have him on a leash when there are willows, bear sign, or lack of wide-open visibility. We may let him run in the tundra but not in the willows. It's a constant vigilance with a dog: we had to train him not to chase marmots. The morning on our way out he treed a porcupine & I am glad we were right with him.

We always pack a leatherman tool in case of quills, which we have had to pull. And a doggie anti-inflammatory (Etogesic).

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#27744 - 07/13/05 05:43 AM Re: thanks for the info [Re: Jimshaw]
Damian Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 324
Hi

Quote:
I wonder is it normal for a healthy dog to chew on grass a little?


Yes, it's quite common for them to do it - it's basically self-administered medicine.

Quote:
My dog is a cross breed with a lot of Dingo in her - she is an Aussie dog - a Queensland heeler mix. I learned that heeler means to nip at the heels of cows. Do you know how fast you have to be to do that without getting kicked?


Their technique is to nip and then duck - very quickly. Corgis, which were also bred as cattle dogs - believe it or not - do the same thing. I had a Corgi/Australian Terrier cross on my parents' farm in Australia and he was quite happy working their cattle.

Quote:
If I lived and camped somewhere safe for her I would take her, and I hope others do enjoy their dogs camping where its safe and cool, but I don't think I want to take her cross country with me, she would slow me down like a human partner and when I got to the solo rock climb, what would she do?


Australian working dogs were bred to work all day in heat (and cold) so Kelpies and Blue Heelers definitely don't mind the heat. When you get to your climb your dog will do what he/she was bred to do - she'll sit where told and guard your gear.

In Australia Blue Heelers are often kept as family pet/guard dogs because they are loyal, territorial and aggressive. This means that you do need to be mindful of others using the trail, because some Blue Heelers can be a little aggressive. Have the dog trained to heel or have it on a leash.

With regard to dogs on trails, I find that it's usually the people who are the problem, not the dog. I went up Mt Nelse a couple of years ago and ran into one of the mountain cattlemen. He had a Blue Heeler with him working his cattle and it was perfectly behaved and I had quite a good chat to the guy as well. No problems with the dog. Later that year I walked off Mt Bogong in the middle of summer and was heading for a creek to wash the sweat off when my way was blocked by some car campers who'd set themselves up in a no-camping area. As I walked around their camp a Blue Heeler, not on a leash, lunged at me so they grabbed it by the collar and waved me through. I politely pointed out to them they they were in a national park where dogs were illegal (unless you have a permit, which the cattleman had) and if the dog was so aggressive that it had to be restrained then it shouldn't've been off leash. They were basically non-responsive to that. Same breed of dog, different people, different experience.

Regards

Damian

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#27745 - 07/13/05 10:07 AM Re: Advice from a Veterinarian and an AT 2000 mile [Re: RenMan]
cat Offline
member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 273
Loc: Alaska
Thanks for the great idea, RenMan, about bringing my dog's winter booties along backpacking! In case of an injuried foot pad those would be great in my pack & they weigh next to nothing.

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#27746 - 07/20/05 07:36 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I am happy to report that a new hiking buddy has joined my family. He was rescued from an animal shelter and I adopted him last weekend. He has an incredible personality, although he won't be hiking off leash for quite a while as his predatory instincts are very strong.


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#27747 - 07/20/05 08:06 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Rick Offline
member

Registered: 05/10/04
Posts: 708
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Hey Paddy Crow, your new pal looks alot like your old pal. Nice looking pouch. Lots of training ahead, eh?

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#27748 - 07/20/05 09:13 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Rick]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan

Same breed (Weimaraner), but male instead of female. His coat is quite a bit darker (he's a blue coat, considered a disqualifying fault by AKC) and he has a white patch on his chest. Other than that, he's a little taller and quite a bit thinner. We're working on the latter.

Training looks like it won't be bad with him, he's already picked up sit and down. The recall will be the biggest challenge, he's easily distracted.

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#27749 - 07/20/05 02:57 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Rick]
jonnycat Offline
member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 363
Loc: PNW
Beautiful hound 'ya got there Paddy; looks to have quite a bit of Weimaraner in him.

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#27750 - 07/20/05 06:34 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: jonnycat]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
He's probably pure Weim, but you can't be certain without actually knowing the lineage. The folks at the rescue organization say they only rescue purebreds and they have a great deal of experience with the breed, so I tend to trust them.

It doesn't matter much to me if he's a pure, he's an excellent dog.

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#27751 - 07/20/05 09:44 PM Dog vocabulary [Re: Paddy_Crow]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Paddy_crow
do you know anything about the dogs history? Like how was she trained? My Australian cattle dog was bread to not bark, so I've been trying to train her to bark on command with little success. Suddenly tonight I said "Speak" and she barked - of course. So then I said "Shake" and up came her right paw. Wow - so my wife says she bets the dog knows kiss. So I said "kiss" the dog licked my face. She is trying to teach me, I know she knows lots that I will slowly learn.

Your dog will have lots of hunting instinct. Good luck with her.

I wonder what special commands a camping dog should know?
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27752 - 07/22/05 03:55 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Jimshaw]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I know virtually nothing about his history. He did not appear to have any basic obedience training. He's learning quickly, though.

I would say the main thing a camping dog should have is a good solid recall. You want it to come when called no matter what it may be chasing.

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#27753 - 07/22/05 05:16 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Jimshaw]
pennys Offline


Registered: 12/31/01
Posts: 2842
Loc: Washington
Quote:


I wonder what special commands a camping dog should know?


as stated a rock solid recall, plus a rock solid heel on and off leash, a rock solid stay at the minimum.

Penny s
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#27754 - 07/25/05 08:44 AM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: pennys]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Penny
No rock solid recall here. Yesterday Roxie saw a deer and I would not have been able to hold her by the leash alone. I caught the lunge with the leash/collar but had to put my arm around her to control her. Her predatory instincts are way to pronounced to ever take her where innocent animals roam. It took over a minute to get enough control to put her in the car.

The SPCA said that it is easy to train a dog with a clicker but my dog is scared of it.

Jim (:->)
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27755 - 07/25/05 10:42 AM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Jimshaw]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I love the sight of sight hounds. Afghans. Irish Wolfhounds. Scottish Deerhounds. Greyhounds. Whippets. They sure are fast and love to run.

They are not content with a simple jog like some dogs. They need a good sprint now and then. They are not meant to be retrievers, but you might try kicking a soccer ball and letting her chase after it and try and tackle it. Then you have to go get it and give he a pat. You might be able to work recall training into that to somehow. I think you are right about greyhounds not being a dog for the woods; more for open fields. That dog is going to keep you in fine shape though.

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#27756 - 07/25/05 01:20 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Jimshaw]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Clickers aren't for every dog and there are plenty of solid training methods that have been around long before clickers came into vogue. Repitition is the key. Start with a long line so that you can reinforce the recall. Then work with distractions before you graduate to working off leash.

My female Weim had as strong a predatory instinct as I've ever seen. Little critters sent her into spasms. After a lot of work, I got so I could call her off a squirrel.

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#27757 - 07/26/05 05:29 AM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Paddy_Crow]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
I am not an expert on this, but I think what people call the predator instinct is really a very complex set of instincts. Some can be enhanced while others may be supressed, either by selective breeding or through training. Some predatory instincts are also naturally jumbled in with social instincts and sexual behavior. The same instinct can serve different purposes in different contexts. Pointers have a strong instinct to be alert to prey, and to quietly alert others, while its other predatory instincts such as to chase is greatly supressed. Setters have that strong instinct to flush out prey, which is developed in a different way in Border Collies for herding. Retrievers have that very soft mouth, which might actual by a parental instinct rather than a hunting instinct.

Anyhow, greyhounds by nature must have a very strong instinct to chase, and of course to bite. I would check on that soccer ball idea, but I thought because she couldn't actually get its teeth around it it might help suppress the biting. I think running and chasing is OK as long as she learns to wait until you say go and return when you call her back even if the ball is still rolling down the field. The other idea is she might become more interested in soccer balls and become less interested in rabbits and deer and cars and people. You are right to be weary about greyhounds though. They are a hunting breed.

I think one reason why Retrievers are so good with children is because even though they are a hunting breed, all their hunting instincts might actually be quite suppressed and it might be more of a maternal and paternal instinct to carry pups without doing harm that might be enhanced in these breeds. My sister has a 4 golden retrievers, and this young male found some kittens that had lost their mother, perhaps to a fox, and the dog ran and got my sister and showed her the kittens and then cared for them until they were found homes. He would carry them in his mouth, and if they tried to go anywhere he would just pin them down with his mouth until they got the idea. The kittens really to to him and slept on him. They were of course a little confused but learned to drink out of a dish. It was quite remarkable, especially for a rambungtious young male, but perhaps not for a retriever.

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#27758 - 07/26/05 04:08 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: JAK]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
When I refer to predatory instinct, I'm talking about the drive to pursue small animals and kill them. The tendency to chase small animals is a strong indicator.

Being able to call your dog off its pursuit is critical, in my opinion, before trusting it off leash. Unless, of course, you don't mind the smell of skunk.


Edited by Paddy_Crow (07/26/05 04:10 PM)

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#27759 - 07/26/05 04:38 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Paddy_Crow]
jonnycat Offline
member

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 363
Loc: PNW
The best way I have found to instill the recall command (the fundamental and most importand command) is with positive reinforcement. Specifically, with food.

Keep some kibble in your pocket at all times. When the dog comes after the recall command, praise the dog and give it a kibble. When the recall is strong you only use the kibble at random intervals (but still with praise), and eventually you don't need the kibble (but still give the praise).

There are probably other ways, but this is what has always worked for me.

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#27760 - 07/26/05 04:58 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: jonnycat]
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
Yes, food is the most common reward. There are other methods that many behaviorists advocate, but there's nothing wrong with using what works.

Another important thing is to never, ever, ever call your dog and then punish them when you get your hands on them. It will quickly destroy all your good work. I'm opposed to negative reinforcement anyway, unless you can catch the dog in the act of an unwanted behavior. I never struck my female once in her entire life and I intend to follow the same practice with my male.

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#27761 - 07/26/05 11:39 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Paddy_Crow]
JAK Offline
member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 2569
Interesting stuff. That makes a lot of sense.

Instincts must work on many levels. They can be broken down into instincts at a lower level of abstraction, or recombined into instincts at a higher level of abstraction. I guess when you think about it, instincts aren't so much part of the dog so much as they are our way of understanding the dog. No wonder dog's sometimes look at us rather strange sometimes. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

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#27762 - 07/27/05 09:14 AM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: JAK]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi Guys,
Well I've been reading a lot and the stuff that makes the most sense tells me that this dog has strong pack hunting instincts and she needs to chase, catch, shake and kill and chew on her prey. We play tug of war and ball to work out her chase catch shake chew kill instints, then we work on "give" so now she can hand me the ball or drop it so I can throw it again, and I think "give" is starting to work because she was (is) crazed about playing "tug". I even got the rope in my teeth yesterday and we played tug with our faces about a foot apart growling at each other...

We can be playing ball and if I suddenly point to a gopher mound and look at it attentively, she'll drop the ball, put her nose to the ground and start digging throwing dirt ten feet behind her. Her predatory instincts outweigh "ball" any day.

I think maybe I should try a fishing pole. There was some great swimmer wearing a harness and a guy with a flyrod with 10 pound test line and the swimmer could not get away. Anyway a whippy pole makes it possible to control a large animal with light line. I can see using a casting rod with 30 pound test on this dog, then I can real here in from 150 yards out...
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27763 - 07/27/05 04:08 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Jimshaw]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have an Australian Cattle dog, Scout, that has probably got more Dingo in him than most. I've never had a more loyal companion and he is excellant on the trail. This is probably one of the toughest breeds for enduring long treks over difficult terrain. They were bred to keep cattle moving across long stretches of the Austrailian outback. They need an incredible amount of exercise to work off their energy. I can't imagine how you would train this breed not to bark. Scout's bark has probably cost me a bit of hearing loss over the years. He's not a dog that will bark out of boredom but mainly to get my attention or in his excitement to greet me. The vet had offered to do some sort of surgery on his vocal cords but I would never consider doing such a thing to one of my animals. It is possible that someone had this done to yours. They are definitely not a quiet breed!

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#27764 - 07/27/05 05:23 PM Re: Dog vocabulary
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Coyote,
She CAN bark and does occasionally, but for the most part you here not a sound, like strangers can knock on the door and she doesn't bark - I understood that dingos don't bark. I heard that sheep dogs bark and cattle dogs are mostly silent. Nope no surgery on her vocal cords, though sometimes when I say speak she only manages a cough...

A neighboor saw her and said her queensland heeler mix also had the red speckles on a white body with a couple big plain red patches.
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#27765 - 07/27/05 08:58 PM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Jimshaw]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jim,

The Australian Heelers I've known out here have had sharp annoying barks. I've read that this is a trait also. Either way consider yourself lucky to have a quiet one. I believe that dingoes were partly domesticated wolves from India and were traded to the aboriginies thousands of years ago and are not native to Australia. . They were of value to them in guarding their camps and serving as scouts. The dingoes became extremely loyal to their human friends - I have been told that this accounts for the same trait in most Aussie Cattle Dogs.

Just tonight I was talking to my neighbor when one of his 2 blue heelers was kicked in the head by his rodeo horse. The little fellow got kicked back and tumbled over and just came right back to mess with the horse by nipping at his hooves. They have a super tough skull that gives them better odds of surviving the kicks from angry cattle. They are usually quick to drop down low on their front paws and duck under the cattle kicks. I've seen quite a few of them with only 3 legs helping with cattle. They had most likely lost a leg getting trampled in the middle of a herd. They are so tough that they keep going on 3 legs doing the herding work that they love.

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#27766 - 07/28/05 08:07 AM Re: Dog vocabulary
WyoBob Offline
member

Registered: 05/04/04
Posts: 204
Loc: Buffalo, WY
I love watching cattle dogs work. I never had any on my place but my brother-in-law has a couple on his ranch in Nebraska. They also have lots of cats. It is one of the funniest things I've ever seen when Pat the dog starts hearding cats. I get tears squirting out of my eyes watching that darn dog. The cats have no idea what's going on. My BIL likes having the cats around because it takes the "heat" off the cattle. He really doesn't want the dog running cattle for no good reason so the cats help satisfy Pat's hearding instinct.

WyoBob

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#27767 - 08/08/05 09:59 AM Re: Dog vocabulary [Re: Jimshaw]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hiya,
I'm new but your post caught my attention because I have an Austrailian cattledog as well, and she does not bark...the only time she feels compelled to is when we start playing and rough housing and then she'll give out a bark with a slight howl sound to it, it's [Edited for inappropriate languge, please review forum policies for more information] cute but that's it. And even then it sounds like she's forcing a bark out.
And as to the training commands - my dog doesn't ever have to be put on a leash because her loyalty and herding, packing instincts were nurtured by our training her to the point that off a leash she will never move farther away than 10, 15 feet of us, even on trails. She never wanders away. It's nothing special on our part but it was this training method called "Follow the Leader" that is very sucessfull with cattledogs. My dog- (Fox is her name) will even heel off a leash, and she has no problems with come and stay commands, but I can honestly say that having this type of breed to train made it a little easier.

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#27768 - 08/08/05 10:03 AM Re: Aussie Cattle Dog
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hiya,
I'm new but your post caught my attention because I have an Austrailian cattledog as well, and she does not bark...the only time she feels compelled to is when we start playing and rough housing and then she'll give out a bark with a slight howl sound to it, it's [Edited for inappropriate languge, please review forum policies for more information] cute but that's it. And even then it sounds like she's forcing a bark out.
And as to the training commands - my dog doesn't ever have to be put on a leash because her loyalty and herding, packing instincts were nurtured by our training her to the point that off a leash she will never move farther away than 10, 15 feet of us, even on trails. She never wanders away. It's nothing special on our part but it was this training method called "Follow the Leader" that is very sucessfull with cattledogs. My dog- (Fox is her name) will even heel off a leash, and she has no problems with come and stay commands, but I can honestly say that having this type of breed to train made it a little easier.

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#27769 - 08/10/05 12:04 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: paulj]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
My dog is not a toy or gear that I can just stash in the closet for the season. My dog's safety and well being is as much my concern if I have to leave it behind, as if I have it with me.


I agree 100%. Our golden retreiver is part of our family, and he goes everywhere with us. He is almost 2 years old, and is finally coming out of his puppy stage and beggining to mature. We took him to obedience training when he was 1 yr old, and it really paid off. When hiking, we keep him leashed if we are in a heavily traveled area, and turn him loose once we get out into the boonies. He stays in front of us on the trail, never leaving our site, and checks back periodically. As for waste, he always takes it upon himself to move well off the trail to relieve himself. Also, his presence gives my wife & I a certain peace of mind. I'm not sure how far he would go in protecting us from a bear, or even another human with ill intentions toward us, but his senses are 100% better than ours, and he lets us know when something is wrong or out of place.

Each dog should be treated on a case by case basis. Of course, everyone should follow pet laws that are in place for the area that they are visiting, but other than that, no one knows your dog and his/her abilities better than you. Remember, YOU, the owner, are responsible for all actions of your pet!

As for those people who say "Leave your dog at home", how would you like it if someone told you to leave your child at home?

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#27770 - 08/10/05 03:39 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
As for those people who say "Leave your dog at home", how would you like it if someone told you to leave your child at home?
If my child screamed needlessly, intimidated people, and sniffed their crotches, I would leave him at home. But there's no need to go through all that again.

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#27771 - 08/10/05 07:24 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Paddy_Crow Offline
member

Registered: 11/08/04
Posts: 2285
Loc: Michigan
I've come to the conclusion that people who don't want dogs on the trail just plain don't want dogs around anywhere. No matter how many well behaved dogs cross their path, they will continue to dwell on those few that have made a bad impression.

Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of people I meet on the trail are not like that. They seem to enjoy meeting my dog as much as my dog enjoys meeting them.

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#27772 - 08/11/05 08:49 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
If my child screamed needlessly, intimidated people, and sniffed their crotches, I would leave him at home. But there's no need to go through all that again.


Obviously you just don't get it. I for one (and I am guessing most hikers who take dogs along with them) take my 'best friend' along with me, not to annoy others, but to allow him the experience of being completely surrounded by nature in an environment where he can truly "be a dog". He does not "destroy" the environment that we pass thru, anymore than you & I, or even other wild animals destroy it.

He does not bark (he growls at night if something "strange" approaches him).
I doubt if he intimidates most people. He responds immediately to all commands that I give him.
He does not 'sniff' peoples crotches. In fact, if you ignore him when passing us on a trail, he keeps to himself completely. It's people who greet him in a high pitch voice with arms flailing in the air who normally get his attention.

But like I said before, each person must judge their dog individually. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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#27773 - 08/11/05 09:52 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
I have a limited understanding of the situation, but more backcountry places are putting restrictions on dogs. They are not allowed in most National Parks and are required to be on leash in Wilderness Areas and my local Open Spaces. These rules are to prevent the bad behavior caused by a very small number of bad owners.

The majority of good owners need to exert more peer pressure on the bad owners. If this is not done then the rules will become more and more restrictive.

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#27774 - 08/11/05 09:55 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
dkramalc Offline
member

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 1070
Loc: California
It seems to me that Bill does "get it". What he's saying is what it seems most of the people, dog owners and not, on this thread have said - IF your dog does not behave well in the wildnerness setting, it should stay at home; otherwise, fine. I would not bring my best (human) friend on a backpacking trip if they were unable to keep from annoying or harrassing wildlife and other backpackers - same should go for a dog, IMHO.
_________________________
dk

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#27775 - 08/11/05 11:12 AM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: dkramalc]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
It seems to me that Bill does "get it".


I am new to this forum, and I don't mean to offend anyone. From the posts that I have read so far, this seems like a very good community of people with alot of experience in backpacking, and I look forward to reading about & sharing in hiking tips and trips of others. <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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#27776 - 08/11/05 01:37 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
Anonymous
Unregistered


No worries.

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#27777 - 03/01/08 08:27 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs?
dhock83 Offline
member

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 30
Loc: Southeast Ohio
Ok Im sorry I found all I need here

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#158667 - 12/13/11 02:20 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Anonymous]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2838
Loc: Portland, OR
I am moving this old thread to the new Hiking with Animals forum, because it seems like a far-ranging and useful discussion of the subject and it will be easier to find if I relocate it.

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#158672 - 12/13/11 03:20 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Anonymous]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3865
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
No no, I got it... I've just been messing with other stuff. I'll grab a few pics when I go out to feed the menagerie this afternoon wink
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#158677 - 12/13/11 04:18 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Paddy_Crow]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Paddy_Crow
I've come to the conclusion that people who don't want dogs on the trail just plain don't want dogs around anywhere. No matter how many well behaved dogs cross their path, they will continue to dwell on those few that have made a bad impression.

Fortunately, the overwhelming majority of people I meet on the trail are not like that. They seem to enjoy meeting my dog as much as my dog enjoys meeting them.


Patently untrue of me. I love all animals.

However, many people who have tried to bring their dogs hiking when our group goes on trails that allow dogs have proved that many dogs are not suitable hiking companions. One bit someone (a ranger, no less) and another got in a fight with a really good hiking dog and caused damage. Other dogs have not been with our party, but have barreled along the trail at a high rate at us, frightening people with their behavior.

What many dog owners fail to recognize is that there is a way to train your dog to the task at hand, and they are not doing it, which leads to the sad consequence of me encouraging people not to bring their dogs at all, for their safety more than anything else. If I can tell they have not thought much past "it would be fun to take Fifi!" to what they will do if Fifi's paws start to bleed after a mile across granite, I discourage it.

There are dogs I would go backpacking with in a heartbeat - they are well behaved, come reliably when called, even will not drink from streams until told they can - contrast with a friend's dog that suffered horrible giardia after a low elevation hike.

When I tell people not to bring a dog, it's because I'm more concerned for the dog.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158678 - 12/13/11 04:36 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: lori]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
You'd think I would have learned to look at dates - what an old thread! but interesting reading.
_________________________
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http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158679 - 12/13/11 04:51 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: billstephenson]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
Its good you responded that post Bill. One of the "anonymous's" has been waiting 6 years for that response! grin You use to be able to post anonymously? Unregistered even?

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#158681 - 12/13/11 04:59 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: lori]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3865
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I didn't check the date either blush

I thought it was a comment on OM saying she's waiting for my pics grin
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#158701 - 12/13/11 08:17 PM Re: thanks for the info [Re: Damian]
squark Offline
member

Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 66
Loc: SF bay area, CA
Despite the age of this thread I wanted to make a couple of comments on earlier posts; hope that's ok:

Quote:
One note: Forget the Ipecac. If you need to induce vomitting in your dog, just use table salt.


Just a note: hydrogen peroxide works as well. I do know of one dog who died after salt-induced vomiting. The rimadyl she ate that necessitated an emetic of course may have been the main cause, but the salt was suspected as well: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index...mp;#entry232967

Quote:
Australian working dogs were bred to work all day in heat (and cold) so Kelpies and Blue Heelers definitely don't mind the heat.


I think acclimation matters as well. I live in an area that largely stays between 45-75F year-round, and my heeler mix (probably with shepherd or malinois or similar) seems uncomfortable hiking in temps much over 80, so we stick to the coast or woodlands in the summer.

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#176427 - 04/13/13 02:13 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Anonymous]
Sash Offline
newbie

Registered: 04/13/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
I would NEVER go on a hike without my Staffy. As long as you are always in control of your dog there is no reason to leave them at home. I know some people say that they might attract bears and cougars but where I live, there is a 90% chance I'll run into them anyways. You just have to be prepared for it, after all, we are in their neighborhood. hehe.

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#176434 - 04/13/13 11:24 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: Sash]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Sash
I would NEVER go on a hike without my Staffy. As long as you are always in control of your dog there is no reason to leave them at home. I know some people say that they might attract bears and cougars but where I live, there is a 90% chance I'll run into them anyways. You just have to be prepared for it, after all, we are in their neighborhood. hehe.


Except for the fact that you can't take them to national parks, and I refuse to not go to national parks.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#176435 - 04/13/13 11:43 PM Re: What About Hiking With Dogs? [Re: lori]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2838
Loc: Portland, OR
If I lived in California, I'd hike in the National Parks there as often as I could, too. I'm not sure what the rules are concerning dogs in Canadian National Parks.

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