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#198489 - 06/17/17 11:25 PM another cold sleeper question again
toddfw2003 Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Texas
So i am a very cold sleeper and I am a man. I am thin though. In April I did a backpacking trip into a canyon in Utah. Night time temps got down to about 28. With my now cold weather system I didnt get cold but I wasnt comfortably warm. A few more degrees and I probably would have gotten chili. My cold weather system I used. EE revelation 20, Xtherm pad, SOL escape bivy, Heavy weight merino wool from head to toe. I use a SMD tarp but I can bring it all the way to the ground to retain heat. So with all that I think I can at least ditch the SOL escape bivy. It weighs 8 oz and go with something else. A friend of mine told me that I might stay warmer with a bag than a quilt with temps that low. Would it be better to go with a 10 degree zpacks sleeping bag or maybe a 10 degree EE covert or an 0 degree EE Revelation. Which is the warmer. I have heard the zpacks pack are over stuffed

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#198490 - 06/18/17 12:09 AM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: toddfw2003]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2751
Loc: California
Sorry, what is "EE"?

Bag or quilt ratings vary vastly unless they are tested to European standards (forgot the acronym for that). In my opinion you were pretty close to the bag's limit. You say "about" 28, but did you have a thermometer? Or was it just below freezing because your water bottle froze? The feel of temperature has a lot to do with the humidity too. Did you enter the sleeping system toasty warm? If not, that would make you cold. If cold, I take a vigorous short walk and then immediately hop in the bag.

I have never used a quilt, so can only comment on sleeping bags. I sleep cold, my bag (Western Mountaineering Super Antelope) is rated 5-10 degrees F, and I feel cold at about 20F. The down is not ideally distributed for me. When I bought it they did not have women's specific bags. Too much down up top and on shoulders, not enough on hips and legs. That said, most people say the WM bags are right-on with temperature ratings. That makes me an extremely cold sleeper too. Everyone is different. I would not consider a quilt for temperatures in the 20's. Cinching up the hood is essential for me, as is a draft collar. Not sure you can do that in a quilt.

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#198492 - 06/18/17 01:20 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: wandering_daisy]
toddfw2003 Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Texas
EE= Elightened Equiptment. No humidity. It was in the desert and I didnt get cold until around 4am. Have a thermomenter. But you are probably right on 28 being in its lower limits. That makes since. I think I am going to sell it and buy a hammock gear 0 degree quilt

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#198493 - 06/18/17 03:29 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: toddfw2003]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6400
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Another cold sleeper here. And I can't sleep with a quilt if it's below 60*F--I toss and turn too much. That's the temperature at which I have to zip up my sleeping bag rather than using it as a quilt.

Like W_D, I need that hood pulled snug and that draft collar. That's even though I already wear a hat and usually some of my insulating clothing on cold nights. I also use a vapor barrier (nonbreathable rain gear worn over my base layer and under all other insulating clothing) if the temps will be freezing or below.

If you're a cold sleeper, you really need a sleeping bag, not a quilt, for cold nights. At least then you can stay warm with no drafts.

The only objective standard for sleeping bag ratings is the EN13537 testing standards. If you are a cold sleeper, you want the "comfort" rating, which, although ostensibly for women, is really for all of us cold sleepers regardless of sex. Also note that the tests for 20*F rating assume that the sleeper is wearing a base layer and a knit hat, and is sleeping on a pad with an "R" rating of about 5.0.

Of course it may be your pad that's the problem--what's it's "R" rating?

More on those EN 13537 ratings here


Edited by OregonMouse (06/18/17 03:31 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#198496 - 06/18/17 07:29 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: OregonMouse]
toddfw2003 Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Texas
r value on my pad is 5.7. It isnt the pad. I am warm on the pad. Its what is on top. I think the down may move around in mny quilt to much which makes for cold spots

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#198497 - 06/18/17 07:51 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: toddfw2003]
toddfw2003 Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Texas
I think 28 degrees might have just been at my limits on that quilt. even with the sol escape bivy. I dont think the bivy added much warmth too it. I was thinking the zpacks back because you can zip it up. Now I am looking at a hammock gear burrow 0 degree quilt. That should keep me comfortable down to about 15 degrees

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#198498 - 06/19/17 01:47 AM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: toddfw2003]
JustWalking Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/16
Posts: 128
Loc: PNW
Originally Posted By toddfw2003
So i am a very cold sleeper and I am a man. I am thin though. In April I did a backpacking trip into a canyon in Utah. Night time temps got down to about 28. With my now cold weather system I didnt get cold but I wasnt comfortably warm. A few more degrees and I probably would have gotten chili. My cold weather system I used. EE revelation 20, Xtherm pad, SOL escape bivy, Heavy weight merino wool from head to toe. I use a SMD tarp but I can bring it all the way to the ground to retain heat. So with all that I think I can at least ditch the SOL escape bivy. It weighs 8 oz and go with something else. A friend of mine told me that I might stay warmer with a bag than a quilt with temps that low. Would it be better to go with a 10 degree zpacks sleeping bag or maybe a 10 degree EE covert or an 0 degree EE Revelation. Which is the warmer. I have heard the zpacks pack are over stuffed


As to zPacks vs EE, I've not owned any zPacks quilts, but I have owned many EE quilts (including early custom cuben quilts when he had a much smaller business). They've all been well made, met my temp requirements at rated degrees. I'm a warm sleeper. FWIW.

But I agree with Oregon Mouse, I think you'd be happier in a sleeping bag at those temps. If they feel too constricted, Western Mountaineering (no relationship) makes some of their bags, especially at some of the colder temp ratings, with extra girth. I like the room a quilt provides, and these bags approach the feeling of room. Might want to check them out.

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#198502 - 06/19/17 12:05 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: JustWalking]
toddfw2003 Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Texas
yeh, the zpacks is actually a bag, not a quilt. It zips up but it isnt a mummy. I have looked at the WM Antelope MF. That would be ideal but its too heavy. 2lbs 13oz. I could probably get away with the sequoia. its only 2 pounds and 10 degrees. Feeling constricted doesnt bother me. I went with a quilt to keep my weight low

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#198503 - 06/19/17 01:50 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: toddfw2003]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6400
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
With any quilt and with the Zpacks sleeping bag, you'll need a separate hood, which makes the weight comparable to that of a sleeping bag. Do note that the ZPacks bag, like quilts, is not EN13537 rated.

My sleeping bag is the Western Mountaineering Ultralite. While WM claims it's a 20*F bag, and (last I looked) doesn't list EN13537 ratings, they do sell their sleeping bags in Europe so do have those models tested. I checked several European websites and (after converting to degrees F) found that the "lower limit" is about 17*F and the "comfort" rating is abut 25*F. The latter temp is exactly where I need to put on extra insulation inside the bag, so for me it's accurate. I've taken the bag down to 15* F wearing all my insulating clothing inside and with an R 5.7 pad.

Even if a bag is accurately rated, note that the "comfort" rating runs from 7 to 9 degrees F higher than the "lower limit" rating (which is usually close to the advertised rating). Ignore the "lower limit" when looking for a sleeping bag! And if the bag isn't EN-rated, assume that for us cold sleepers, the advertised rating is 10* lower than what it will be for us!

Just out of curiosity, what were you wearing in bed the night you were cold with the EE quilt?

Also consider that for many of us, a good night's sleep is far more important than a few ounces of weight saving.


Edited by OregonMouse (06/19/17 02:06 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#198509 - 06/19/17 09:16 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: OregonMouse]
toddfw2003 Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Texas
Heavy weight merino wool from head to toe including a merino wool balakava. I wasnt cold. I just wasnt that cozy warm. a few more degrees and I probably would have gotten cold. The problem is my quilt was inside a sol escape bivy which i think did nothing and it weighs 8 oz. I dont live up north. I do most of my backpacking in the spring, winter and fall though and I spend a whole lot of my backpacking in Utah in those seasons. Fall and spring I mean. temps dont usually get below 25 but saying that I do want to get into some colder climates so I think a 0 degree bag or quilt might be my best option.

I have gotten all my gear exactly where I want it. It will be a long time before I replace anything except my sleep system. Still struggling to get that in check.

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#198510 - 06/19/17 09:37 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: toddfw2003]
JustWalking Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/16
Posts: 128
Loc: PNW
I think you would have been better to have the SOL bivy inside your quilt, instead of the other way around.

I have a cuben liner for my quilts, it easily adds 5 degrees or more to the comfort rating.

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#198512 - 06/19/17 11:45 PM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: JustWalking]
toddfw2003 Offline
member

Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 325
Loc: Texas
i have heard people say that. To me it seems like my body heat would be block by the SOL and would not enter the down in the quilt

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#198513 - 06/20/17 12:01 AM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: toddfw2003]
aimless Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2859
Loc: Portland, OR
it seems like my body heat would be block by the SOL and would not enter the down in the quilt

I am not speaking from personal experience of the gear combination you're describing here, but if the SOL bivy did block your heat from entering the quilt it would be because it was effectively preventing radiant heat loss from the interior of the bivy to the exterior. That would be a good thing for staying warm inside the bivy, not a bad thing.

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#198514 - 06/20/17 03:04 AM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: toddfw2003]
JustWalking Offline
member

Registered: 01/12/16
Posts: 128
Loc: PNW
+1 to what aimless said.

Also, even though you're a cold sleeper, you still sweat (or water evaporates from you or whatever, the smart people can correct me) when you sleep, just not enough to notice. With the SOL bivy on the outside, you were trapping moisture in your down layer, effecting its insulating properties (especially over consecutive nights). Bivy on the inside traps that moisture so it doesn't get into your down, and if you regulate properly you'll actually stay pretty dry.

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#198517 - 06/20/17 11:41 AM Re: another cold sleeper question again [Re: JustWalking]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6400
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the SOL bivy, so I didn't pay attention to it. If it's not breathable, it is a vapor barrier and definitely should be inside your insulation, not outside. JustWalking is correct here; the bivy, when used outside your quilt, traps your body moisture (technically known as "insensible perspiration") in your quilt insulation! That, not just falling temperature, undoubtedly explains why you were getting cold by morning--your down insulation was getting damp and losing its effectiveness!

I've had this happen even using a breathable bivy, mostly because my tossing and turning made the waterproof underside of the bivy end up on top, achieving the same effect! Even when this didn't happen, I found that even the breathable nylon on top retarded some of the evaporation from the sleeping bag.

If you wear additional insulation inside your sleeping bag, such as a jacket, it needs to be outside the SOL bivy or other vapor barrier for the same reason. The only thing inside the bivy or other vapor barrier should be your wicking base layer, which will dry really fast--almost instantly--from your body heat after you arise and start moving around.

Most people are uncomfortable in a vapor barrier in temperatures above freezing. I'd therefore leave the SOL thing off altogether until the temps get frosty! Then use it under the quilt.

Try that simple fix before you spend more $$$ on another (and heavier) quilt or a sleeping bag!


Edited by OregonMouse (06/20/17 02:25 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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