I am planning on trying a return to some relatively tame backpacking at the age of 68. Depending on how it goes I may get more ambitious next year, health permitting.

The issues that I need to deal with are enumerated in the title of this thread. I have most of what I need in the way of equipment left over from when I last did some backpacking over 15 years ago. All of it was moderate to good quality gear back then. I loaded up my pack the other day with almost everything necessary in equipment and it weighs about 14 pounds with only a couple of items missing: a sleeping pad and a water filter. I have been investigating sleeping pads and haven't found what I want just yet. I have decided that I am going to use a Sawyer Mini as my water filter. My backpacking will be in warmer months in upstate SC so I don't need to concern myself with serious problems keeping warm.

If I decide to continue after this year then I have to give my equipment a serious evaluation. The problem is that as I look at the prices of what is considered the better equipment today it takes my breath away. Since what would be considered my base weight with my current equipment should come in under 16 pounds. While that is no where near what some folks consider ultra light or maybe even light weight, it does not seem to make me a total pack mule.

I figure I will soon learn just how well I am able to handle things with the equipment I have and the total pack weight I am faced with. But I have to wonder if I really need to concern myself with laying out a lot of money if I am able to handle what I have. Are there any other pack mules out there doing some reasonably serious trips of up to a week in moderate 3 season conditions.

The biggest thing you can do to lighten your pack weight is not put as many things in your pack. It doesn't cost a penny either! It sounds like you have a good handle on that aspect.

The most important thing about backpacking is getting out there. Forums are places of discussion. What is there to discuss about backpacking? Where to go and what to bring. As a result forums often get bogged down in gear discussions. This can spiral out of control and make people think you have to bring expensive gear to backpack properly. Hogwash! You should spend what you need to get you out there. At the end of the trip evaluate your gear and how it worked out for you. Most importantly look at what gear you didn't use and decide if you should just not bring it next time (give a pass to your first aid kit).

Historically backpacking is a cheap hobby, there is no reason it still can't be.

I can sympathize with hesitation over buying a sleeping pad or air mattress. I've recently been looking at my choices in that area and have yet to see the perfect match for my desires. My only advice is that REI has a very generous returns policy, so if you buy something there and it fails to give you satisfaction, you would not be stuck with a failed item.

I was going to add some remarks similar to BZH's. Success in backpacking is just a matter of carrying a pack up a trail to a destination and enjoying the experience. Everything else is just a refinement.

Rewinding the always-reliable memory tapes, fifteen years has seen a lot of changes and as you note, a lot of price increases--but not across the board.

Some things are more expensive, like sleeping pads/mattresses and trail sneakers and water filters while others are cheaper, like good down sleeping bags and backpacks. Some things didn't even exist, like LED headlamps. And holy cow, the selection of most stuff has exploded, making "easy choices" not so easy.

For sure, the basics of a lightweight kit are now commercially available in significant numbers and DIY is no longer a necessary part of the equation. Even so, something like a self-made alcohol stove can cut price and weight to nearly nothing while giving the opportunity to tinker while playing with fire. What could be better?

Find a suitable and very light shelter--a tarp even--sleeping system and kitchen, assemble a small and dependable clothing kit, gather the other basics and only then look at backpacks. You might be surprised how small and light the pack itself can be.

You don't have to spend a fortune! In case you haven't seen my recent responses to similar questions in the Backcountry Beginners section:

Home page of this site, articles in left-hand column--lots of info on gear selection, lightening up and several good gear lists.

$300 Gear Challenge --very recent and up-to-date; includes a number of alternate options that are still low budget, just not quite as low.

Dirtbagging and Deal Shopping

Mark Verber's Recommended Outdoor Gear--encylopedic treatment of the latest technology, although it is now several years old and could use updating. The main difference is that there's a lot more cuben fiber (but that's $$$!) in use, and supposedly water repellent down is now available. The articles include low budget options at the end of each section. There are also links to lightweight gear lists and low budget (but still lightweight) gear lists. A few of the links may be dead, but a lot of them are alive and well.

Actually, if you come in at about 15 lbs. for everything except food, water and fuel (and it sounds as though you will), you're in pretty good shape!

Except for a new insulated air pad (that Exped I keep bragging about), I haven't bought new gear for the past 4 years, and probably won't. And it's only the last few items I did buy (except the pad, which is heavier but more comfortable than what I had) for which I spent horrendous amounts of money to squeeze out the last couple of pounds to go from 13.5 lbs. base weight down to 11. I'm not at all sure that expenditure was worth it!

15 pounds may be a tad optimistic once everything but food fuel and water is considered. But for warm weather conditions somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 is a good possibility. I guess it also depends on what people consider part of base weight. For water and fuel do you count the containers as part of base weight or part of fuel and water weight. Clothing for comfortable weather I expect to be minimal beyond what I am wearing.

But one point is I don't want to obsess about shaving ounces and spending a fortune doing it. The gear I have is perfectly functional and in good condition. There are a couple of places I know I can cut a little weight but don't want to lay out any funds if I don't have to right now.

It it got the job done 15 years ago, it will get the job done today. (Assuming it hasn't deterioriated - has the waterproofing delaminated on your tent floor? Has the webbing on your pack rotted away?)

Is gear today better than it was 15 years ago? Well, it's lighter, it has neat features, and it's often less bulky - but rain is still rain, bugs are still bugs, cold is still cold. If the gear you have will handle the issues, it will work fine.

Use what you have, and replace things as you need or want to. As you get back into it, you'll find that you do want new gear. 15 years does make a closed cell pad intolerably less comfortable, so you'll probably end up with a 2-inch-thick, warm, comfortable inflatable mattress. Keep looking, and you'll find what you like. The Sawyer Mini is a good choice - the only issue I found is that it's hard to fill the small-mouth "dirty water" bottle in a flowing stream (very easy in falling water, though.) But you'll figure out how to work around that easily enough. The Platypus GravityWorks 2L system, with a 1L Platy to filter into, is a nifty system, and about as easy to use as any I've found. (I'm still partial to my Miniworks or Hyperflow pump for solo use, just out of personal preference.)

The important thing is to get out there. Gear tweaking is something you'll always be doing to a greater or lesser extent, but gear is still just a means to an end. And the end is pretty wonderful.

Agreed, but in warm weather in SC, the OP is definitely going to want some bug protection too, whether it be a fully enclosed tent or a bug net to hang under a tarp.

The tent is one item which, if I stick with it, will ultimately get upgraded but budget will be a big consideration then. The tent I have is completely enclosed so bugs will not be a problem. Since I do a lot of my hiking with a 4 legged companion (a Brittany) I need a little extra floor space. But I can definitely lose some weight in that department and still have the room I need.

I am willing to pay a reasonable weight penalty for what I consider comfort. But that doesn't mean I want to ignore pack weight either. I am not going to be doing 20 mile days, probably not even 15 most of the time.

For sure. Even in the Sierra, early season trips can feature clouds of mosquitoes and blackflies, so tarp shelters have to be backed up with some kind of bug protection. Once it dries out it can generally be left home, although you still have to watch for the carpenter ants.

Cheers,

Why don't you try to give us weights of your gear or at least makers and models from which we can make some suggestions on what to replace first or leave at home.
Alcohol stove, cheap replacement and big weight savings I'll bet over what you had been using, if, only heating water. Many alky stove systems now are only designed for specific sizes or even brands of pots if not up on that trend. Many items have multiple uses also.
Duane

Duane,

I am somewhat reluctant to get into specifics of gear because right now I am not in any position financially to make any significant purchases of new equipment, especially the potentially costlier items. And I have read more than enough different discussions on tent, bag and pack purchases to know that what most people seem to favor would add up to a huge amount of money for me.

My stove is an MSR Whisperlite that is about 20 years old, working fine and I have never had any issues with it in the past. I am looking at the DIY forums and planning to make an alchohol stove and give it a try since I will be restricting myself to warm weather for now.

My sleeping bag is a cheap summer bag that is only good down to maybe 40 degrees or possibly even 50. But it only weighs about 2.25 pounds. I will eventually need something better but that will be an expensive purchase.

My tent is another area I know I can save weight but it is not in the budget right now either. I am using an old Eureka two person dome that weighs in at 6 pounds. I need the room because I hike with my Brittany. There are significantly lighter tents available that would meet my needs and that is likely to be my first major purchase if I stick with this.

My pack is an old Kelty internal frame. I don't even know the model or size but it holds all my current gear with no problem and the pack itself weighs 3 lbs.

I loaded up just about all the gear I would be carrying in the pack yesterday except for the water filter and the weight was 16.4 pounds. I am going to get a Sawyer Mini water filter.

Initially I will only be doing short trips of maybe 2 to 3 nights at a time once the weather is warm so I won't have a huge food, fuel and water load and won't be having a heavy clothing load.

I can highly recommend the super cat. It's extremely cheap and easy to build, easy to use, and pretty efficient.

That's an easy fix if you're willing to sleep under plastic:
like this
or this
or (a little more work) this

I'm using a 8.5ft square of 2mil polyethylene myself. Of course, as I mentioned before, you'll definitely want some bug protection too.

My pack is an old Kelty internal frame.

Some of the best packs ever made! Certainly it will do the job for you a while longer until a compelling reason arises to replace it.

Mr. Bill, I am in sort of the same situation. I am presently 67, almost 68 and even though I never really left backpacking, I just never got around to it much in the past 20 years. I also was very lax in my physical conditioning for much of the time.

So, a few weeks ago I went on a backpacking trip and I packed what I thought was a fairly light load for a 2 day trip. Out here we have a lot of areas with mountains and or rugged trails with steep ascents and descents. This trip was only about 8 miles RT and I had no real issues on the 4 miles in. I did have a hard time hiking out, lots of uphill and I felt like my pack was not fitting well. I also felt some of my gear was a bit heavier than necessary.

In the past a trip like that would motivate me to buy lighter gear and pack as light as possible. Since I am now retired, spending a fortune on new gear is not a good solution today. What I have decided to do is more walking, day hiking and a little rethinking about what goes in my overnight pack. In other words get more in sync with my physical condition and limit myself to what I feel comfortable with, while at the same time working on getting in better shape.

I notice you have a MSR Whisperlite, great stove, I have one, use it, like it. However, I recently weighed the stove, pump and an 11 oz fuel bottle and found it was 23.5 ounces, without a cook pot. Years ago, that made no difference to me. Today, it is weight that can be shaved. I also own a little Snow Peak canister stove with the small titanium 700ml pot. That weighs, with a fuel canister, 18.5 ounces. 5 ounces less. And that includes a small pot, so even more savings.

My old Canon digital camera weighs like 13 ounces, I found a new Nikon compact that takes AA batteries, 20MP and it weighs 5 ounces, cost me $69. With the stove and the camera I have now saved like 13 ounces. I know someone is chuckling but I can tell you from my perspective a pound or two saved means a bunch.

I've also picked out a new tent, under 2 pounds and a sleeping bag under 2 pounds, I have not bought them yet, they are pricey, as you have noted. If I feel like I can use them enough and enjoy the backpacking more, they may be worth the investment.

My sleeping pad is a Thermarest Prolite 72 incher that weighs one pound, not sure I want any other in that area.

Good luck with your packing and keep us posted on what you're up to!

I'm going to +1 on the tent 4evrplan linked to here. I used a lot of what's in that plan to make my own tent and it's very light and has proven to be very durable too. You probably cut 3 pounds this way.

Mine is a different design, made for cold weather camping, but the materials and techniques used by Al Geist for his tent worked out great for me and I only spent about $35 total on it. I've been using mine for a couple years now and it's help up very well.

Here's a link to a video I made this week of mine. It's a small "Baker's Tent" that has a lot more room inside than the "Pup Tent" design linked to above. I really like this design. It'd be easy to make one big enough for your dog to be inside with you.

And another +1 on the "SuperCat" stove. You cannot buy a lighter stove, and since you're doing mostly 2-3 nighters it's a great choice. I've been using one for a few years now and it's all I've needed. I can do breakfast and dinner for 3 days with about 10 ounces of fuel.

I made a few other types of DIY stoves, but after messing with them, which was fun, I really came to love the simplicity of the SuperCat. It was the easiest to make, the easiest to light, boils waters about as fast as most, it's the lightest weight of them all, and it's almost completely silent. It's pretty darn near perfect in my opinion.

If your sleeping bag will work in the temps you'll be in, the weight isn't bad. I'd keep using it. Same with your pack. At 3 lbs, I'd keep using it. Maybe look into replacing the straps and belt if there's something better that doesn't cost you much.

Sleeping pads are the one place I'd probably open the wallet if I were you. The newer pads are a lot lighter and a lot more comfortable, and pack a lot smaller. I was too tight to buy one, and probably still would be, but someone gave me a "Thermarest" pad a few years and that really changed my mind in a big way. I'd spring for one now, even if I had to switch to cheap beer for awhile to scrounge up the money.

Aside from that, I don't think there's much more you can do, money or not, but get out there and enjoy yourself. The one thing I always regret most once I'm out there is not doing it more.

Bill and Bill,

Thanks for the responses. But really now? Switch to cheaper beer? Some sacrifices are just too great.

I do plan to play with a DIY alchohol stove to try and save a little weight there. And I have trimmed back my cookset to a single pot and a mug. I even expect to be able to do a few hikes during the summer without any stove or cookware.

I also realize that when I am ready one area I can really cut some weight is my tent. I have been looking at what is available at a number of different web sites and checking things out locally. I am willing to pay a certain weight penalty for comfort. I just want that weight penalty to be minimal. For me comfort means a bug free sleep, enough room for my pup, good rain protection and ease of setup. And of course I have to concern myself with the cost.

One tent that has caught my eye is a Eureka Midori Solo. It is just over 3.5 pounds. That is probably heavy by a lot of folks standards but it is a savings of almost 3 pounds for me. I don't read much at all on the forums about Eureka tents but I have had no problems with the one I have now. And the price is very reasonable ($117) compared to the $300 or more stuff a lot of people seem to like. Unless I find something I like better that will probably be my first upgrade if I do stick with this backpacking.

I have always been a tent junkie. I have had a bunch of different ones over the years. I started with mountaineering tents because I was doing as much climbing as possible back then. I have had Eureka tents and they have always held up well, had good features and are well made. They are also affordable.

I still have 3 Eureka tents and plan to hold on to them, great for car camping and such.

I have been using a Big Agnes Seedhouse 1 and I liked it because it was fairly light, easy to set up (aside from the 11 stakes) and good headroom. I discovered a fault with it recently, which I do not like. If you have to get in or out in a good downpour, water runs right in to the floor area from the door, no getting around it aside from putting the tent under a tarp! Not a good thing, using a small pack towel will soak up the water but you really have to keep your sleeping bag and gear well away from the door when opening.

I really, really like the design of the Tarptent Moment DW. It sets up in one minute, no rain gets in either when setting up or when opening the door. More importantly, it weighs under 2 pounds, has room for my backpack in the vestibule and with 2 doors it is always easy to get in and out. I may just have to have one! That will trim another pound and a half to two pounds from my load too.

I am going to be a bit picky. I find everyone's stated weights of items a bit on the optimistic side. For example, I have the Tarptent Moment single wall, single door (theoretically should weight slightly less than the double wall) and when it all gets put together (6 stakes really needed to be storm worthy and longer strings needed if you tie down the side tabs) it weighs about 2 pounds 4 oz. I know they say you can set it up with two stakes, but good luck in a wind storm. And the Kelty. I have re-worked my Kelty- striped it down and sewed a light as can be bag, and it weighs 3.5 pounds, so a 3 pound Kelty "pack" does not seem right to me. I weigh everything on a postal scale. I find that almost all manufacturer's stated weights are at least a few ounces off. Medium size is the standard - if you are bigger the stuff will weigh more (clothing, that is).

The thing to do to get an absolute accurate weight is to put on clothes, take EVERYTHING you will have (less water, food and fuel) but you have to have the water bottles and food bags. Use trekking poles? hang on to those too. Step on a good quality bathroom scale. Then step on that same scale, stark naked. Subtract the two. That is your base weight. And do not cheat - fill your pockets with whatever you carry.

For shorter trips, at least for me, the difference between say 18 pounds and 20 is hardly noticeable. Everyone has a break point, over which carrying a pack gets painful after a day's travel. That is what I pay attention to. So for a weekend, I can throw in some goodies. For a 12-day trip, I have to really scale back to absolute necessities.

I have been wondering somewhat about the numbers manufacturers list for weights and measures. I am always skeptical about things like that no matter what activity we are talking about. Your method of determining base weight is definitely a strict, no nonsense way of determining it. It makes me have to question a lot of the numbers I see from some of the super ultra lighters.

If I followed your method and got on my scale dressed and ready for a hike with trekking poles, shoes, and anything I normally carry on my person outside of the pack and compared that weight with my nekkid weight I would probably get at least a 2 or 3 pound difference. And some people are talking about 6 to 8 pound base weights. I don't understand how they get those weights if they carry any kind of a pack with any gear in it at all. Oh well it must be old age and being out of touch with the lengths these SUL backpackers go to.

I guess I will go through whatever backpacking life I continue to have as one of the pack mules on the trail. I value my comfort and am willing to carry the weight necessary to be comfortable. I have been doing some local day hikes with my base weight pack on my back and do not find it the least bit difficult. I will probably make some effort to lighten things up a little if I stick with it but I doubt I will ever make it into what people seem to be calling ultra light. I figure I will be in the 32 to 35 pound range for a 3 to 5 day warm weather hike.

That's about where I'm at for a 3-4 day trip in cool weather (30º lows, 50º highs).

The difference between "Ultralight" and "Lightweight" (which is what this forum focuses on) is exactly what you've pointed out, "comfort", and, I suspect ego has something to do with it too for some backpackers. I mean, if you're willing to be cold and sleep on hard ground then it's easy to go lighter and brag about it, but I'm not interested in those kinds of bragging rights, or impressed by them.

Another aspect is cold hard cash. It's easier to go lighter if money is not a limiting factor, but it is for me. Envy, however, isn't. I'm thrilled with the gear I have, and always have been. I was just excited to get my 1st sleeping bag as each one I've got that was a little better ever since, and just as happy using it. Backpacking with someone who has far better gear has been pretty common for me, and I really do appreciate high end gear, but I never felt my trip was somehow diminished because I didn't have it. Every time that's happened we were all in the same place, breathing the same air and enjoying the same view.

I can certainly see why one would want to give UL a try, and even make it their own norm, but that's a personal choice that has nothing at all to do with my choices or reasons I make them and I don't allocate any extra points for those who go that route, nor do I deduct any from those who do or don't. No one I know would care if I did, and they shouldn't.

It's the same with miles hiked. It's certainly a good thing to be fit enough to hike 20 miles a day, and lots of hikers focus on miles more than anything. That's fine. That's what they want out of backpacking, but not me. I go backpacking to enjoy the outdoors. That's my primary goal. I don't have to go far to accomplish that.

The one thing that is true, and always will be, is that less weight is easier to carry.

-- It's also true that a pound of beer weighs less than a pound of tent when you're carrying it, but only if you get to drink it. If you spill it, or if your friends find it, your fatigue from carrying will retroactively increase its weight by a factor of at least 14. That's a scientific fact.

I doubt I will ever make it into what people seem to be calling ultra light.

Welcome to the club!

Unless there is a compelling reason why you need to go ultralight, it is superfluous to spend any time, money or effort on it. The ultralight compulsion originated with thru-hikers, who had an excellent reason to cut every ounce they could. Some other UL backpackers do so because of age or injury, where a few extra pounds make the difference between getting out to the places they want to go or being unable to.

As far as I can tell, though, a significant number of ultralighters are merely making a fetish of gram-saving for no real reason other than to brag about how low their base weight is. Most of us here do not fall into that sort of silliness. The hike is what is important and the base weight is just a measurement that lets us talk about how to solve various problems that come with carrying too much weight.

Bill, I never made it to ultralight (under 10 lbs. base weight), either. Never mind those 6-8 lb. base weight gear lists! Yes, they are achievable, but they are really Spartan. They also require a great deal of experience and highly honed skills in coping with really nasty conditions, because the safety margin provided by the gear is a lot less. Most ultralight hikers hike vigorously dawn to dark and spend most of the rest of their time in their sleeping bags. Even if that were my hiking style (it isn't), I'm not physically capable of it.

For me, total pack weight under 25 lbs. is all I can carry, which is why I worked hard on reducing my base weight to the 11-12 lb. range. For me, it was cut my pack weight by more than half or not backpack at all! I do take everything I need for my comfort and safety, considering my leisurely hiking style ("stop and smell the flowers"), old age, arthritis, bum knee and where/when I hike (high Cascades or Rockies, 3 season).

Rather than looking wishfully at new gear you can't afford (I've been there, done that!), you might want to see what you can do with what you have and maybe a few inexpensive substitutions (such as the alcohol stove). For me, the "Big 4" (pack, tent, sleeping bag, pad) accounted for only half of my weight savings.) I had to make choices as to what to take and what to leave behind, eliminating duplicate items (a lot of those), and trying to choose more items with multiple uses. My goal was to get the "everything else" (other than the Big 4, food, fuel, water) down to the 5-6 lb. level, and I've done that. It's harder because, instead of pounds per item, you're saving two ounces here and three ounces there on a lot of small items, eventually adding up to pounds.

We've already listed a number of references to look at if you want to lighten up. The ones I've linked to have tended towards the low budget range since that's where you are. It's interesting to study lightweight and even ultralight gear lists and compare them to your own just for ideas. You of course have to adapt other people's lists to your own wants and needs.

Do note several categories of weight on the "standard" gear lists. First, base weight--everything in the pack (including the pack) except food, water fuel (the items that depend on length of trip). It's a silly number (nobody goes out without food and water, I hope!) but is useful for comparing different gear lists without the variable items. It inludes clothing carried in the pack but not what you're wearing at the start. Second, "total pack weight"--the pack and everything in it including the variable items. Third, "skin out weight"--the pack and all the clothing and other stuff worn or carried at the trailhead. I really like W_D's idea of "base skin out weight," base weight plus everything worn/carried, but very few people use that one. We need to start a new trend!

The 27-lb., 7-day gear list on the home page of this site is a fairly good one to compare to. It's designed for three seasons in the Washington Cascades, and is the one I used as a model (for items and weights of individual items rather than brands/models). For now, ignore all of "Shelter" and the pack on that list, since you can't do anything about those. Quite a few of the "everything else" items on that list are heavier than what I now take, but this list is a good place to start.

If you prefer to stick with what you have (again, ignoring the "Big 4") and not try to cut more weight, that's fine, too. I suspect that keeping track of what you use and don't use during several trips might suggest some weight savings. Limiting the length of trips (less food needed) and/or doing shorter mileage days are equally valid ways of coping with pack weight!

In other words, get out there and have fun! Gear is important, but some of us (including me) tend to obsess over it, which is not a good idea. It is more fun to hike with a lighter load. Feel free to ask questions! Please keep in touch and let us know how you're doing. We love trip reports!

Lots of good advice here. And yes I am looking at as much information as I can both here and on a couple of other sites. Please don't anybody think I am knocking the UL and SUL hikers. If that is how they enjoy their backpacking then that is great. I too am out there primarily for the enjoyment of wherever I am. I am in no hurry and I care more about my own safety, comfort and health. I do expect to make some improvement in my pack weight as I progress this year. Even now I am constantly examining what I now have in my pack. I am working on an alchohol stove right now.

Thanks again for all the shared opinions and experience.

I think safety and comfort are often sacrificed to save weight. To me carrying a Swiss Army "classic" knife is a good example of sacrificing actual utility for weight saving. Indeed, you can open packaging with a classic or cut a length of cord. What you cannot do with a SAK classic is split wood to get to the dry parts to start a fire in an emergency. True, could be a rare occurrence and may never happen to you but it has happened many, many times to other hikers that either survived after some misery or expired to hypothermia because their shelter was inadequate for conditions and they could not start a fire in less than ideal conditions. Of course opinions on this item will vary. I carried a SAK Camper model for years as my only knife but to me, a classic is pushing the limits of actual usefulness.

Lots of other items can fall into this minimal category. Sleeping pads, bags, tents and so on. Often they are at the limit of their capability with little to no margin for weather changes and such.

Balance is the real key and getting it all right is a fine line usually based on lessons learned over multiple trips and years. Myself, I prefer a margin of safety and comfort while trimming some fat from the pack without giving too much up.

Taking a list of recommended ultralight gear and relying on it completely could be a serious mistake for some. It may work for years until that one time the weather does not cooperate or an injury changes the itinerary abruptly.

Good to share thoughts and hopefully stimulate some thought. There is certainly no perfect way to do things but there should be a comfortable and safe solution without packing like a mule.

I'm 61 now, carry a UL pack, base weight close to 8 lbs., using quite a bit of cuben fiber gear and down. Week long trips, total pack weight will be around 22-24 lbs. depending on how much water I carry or a bear can. I have no bills, so I've been able to get quite a bit of newer gear, up to a point. I'm still clothing dumb. I tried a bivy and shaped tarp on my vacation last summer, did not care for the issue of trying to squirm into the bivy in the evenings, nor the wind blowing rain just inside the end of the tarp if due to slope, pointing the high end into the wind, sold them both, so back to a 19oz. tent (ZPacks Solplex). I had a 12 oz. (ZPacks Hexamid) two years ago but wanted a little more wind-thru-the-shelter worthiness, still don't have much space, but protected well from above and below now. I have a 3oz solo bug net from STS that I've used a few times, works nicely for when the weather is nice and no other shelter is needed, saving weight there. Unfortunately out West here, due to fire conditions about the time I go on vacation, I've been unable to utilize a alcohol stove setup for the last two summers and have had to bring the next best thing, a isobutane stove and small canister or one of my old classics, a MSR GK or whatever.
Duane

Duane, that Cuben fiber gear looks amazingly light but sure is pricey. I'm retired and have some bills, more now than when I retired at first, so gear selection is based on cost as well as weight savings. It can add up in a hurry when only trying to lose 5 or 6 pounds of total weight.

I find one of my issues is feeling like I can carry the same weight I did 30 years ago and tend to take a few items that are unnecessary. Right now that is one of my main areas of attention, leaving things out that are redundant or frivolous.

There are certain items that I like to carry and some I would like to use more often if I could find a better way to carry them. I like my MSR Whisperlte and it is heavier than my Snow Peak canister stove. If I could find the perfect titanium pot to stuff the Whisperlite into I wouldn't mind taking it more often. Presently the cooking pot adds too much to the stove. I would be forced in colder weather perhaps but so far prefer the lighter Snow Peak. I am a bit of a stove lover and have few other choices but the weight keeps me from taking them very far these days.

I am shooting for 25 pounds for a 2-3 day trip and should be able to accomplish that. I prefer wool to synthetics but I own some of each and could easily lighten up on the clothing. I have a light down jacket that I mainly carry for use as a pillow but doubles as an emergency layer of warmth.

I think I am going for a two pound tent and leaving the 3 to 4 pounder at home and I need to take a lighter sleeping bag. I often take my old TNF Cat's Meow, great bag but heavy and bulky by today's standards. I could easily save half of it's weight by taking a down bag. I have a Marmot 30 degree that weighs under 2 pounds. I just need to pack it instead of the TNF.

I like the Zpack gear but over my limits cost wise, maybe someday :-)

I'll probably never make it into the ranks of true ultralight, either. I've gotten pretty light (17 pounds, including food and water, for a pleasant summer weekend in Ohio.)

The catch to ultralight, for me, is that "pleasant summer weekend" stuff. My two pound tent is all mesh, which is great on a clear August night - the fly doesn't need to be on, and it's wonderful. My little canister stove chugs away and boils the water quickly in my titanium pot. The sleeping quilt is plenty, and much of the time arms and legs stick out. The ventilated back of my two and a half pound pack feels wonderful. And my spare clothes consist of a pair of socks.

But, if any of that changes, ultralight starts losing its shine. Put the fly on that all-mesh tent, and you start getting condensation, though it does a pretty good job of scooping up every stray breeze. That's great in August, not so much in November. And, if it's raining, I can't pitch the tent fly-first, so the inner gets pretty damp before I'm done. The canister stove has to be shielded from those breezes. And, as I start adding clothing, my tiny little pack runs out of space, and its minimal suspension gets overwhelmed.

I also have a free-standing tent and an integrated stove-pot system that does a great job of resisting wind, and a full-on sleeping bag. They handle any three-season problems I can throw at them. That weekend load grows to 20 pounds, but there's a lot of safety margin gains, and some gains in comfort, too. And it's starting to be my preferred gear set.

I've always been 2 - 5 pounds lighter than my hiking buddies, but it's from leaving out stuff (they carry a pillow, I inflate my water bladder; they want a pot set, plate, cup, fork, and spoon; I carry a spoon and eat and drink from my pot. That kind of thing.

Go light, but don't go nuts.

Bill, I collect stoves, way over a hundred now, around 2 dozen MSR stoves, back to the model 9 with a few more modern models missing that don't do much for me.
Duane

Not with sensible and highly experienced people! Unfortunately, not all people are sensible, and a lot of people are less experienced than they think they are. Here is a good article by Andrew Skurka about the difference between "light" and "stupid light." This article has caused a lot of vehement discussion in ultralight circles.

On the other hand, here's a super ultra-light gear list, with a base weight of 5.8 lbs. I could live with this gear for a 2-3 day trip of summer hiking in the mountains of the southwestern US. I would make the following changes for me: 20*F sleeping bag (+5 oz.), a decent headlamp (+3 oz.), long-handled spoon (+0.3 oz.) (I rehydrate my food in and eat out of freezer bags), my beloved Exped sleeping pad (+ 12 oz.), extra pair of hiking socks (+3 oz.), slightly heavier base layer (+5 oz.), map and compass (+4 oz.) That's basically 1.8 lbs. more. and it would cover any emergency situations that could happen in summer in the Southwest mountains. Add stuff I include in my base weight, like camera, fishing gear, monocular, a Personal Locator Beacon (I hike alone, and having it keeps my family off my back for a psychological weight saving), and this list becomes pretty close to what I have.

BTW, a small knife works just fine for making frizz sticks, which I prefer to trying to split wood with a knife (I have scars from the latter!).

I agree that UL has less safety margin but you also need to look at what level of safety margin is needed. Although thru-hikers are amazing, their "conditions" are different than mine. A thru-hiker is seldom alone, even if they solo. They keep bumping into each other. I have read of many cases where an UL thru-hiker starts getting hypothermia, and another hiker bumps into them and assists them. They cover the miles, so can camp "low", hike "high" not needing high altitude gear. They often come back to town or civilization every 3-4 days or so.

I hike alone, sometimes not seeing a single person for a week. I am mostly off trails. Nobody is going to bump into me and save my sorry behind. I have to be TOTALLY self sufficient. I camp "high" because that is why I am in the mountains! I do not hike 25 miles a day because I simply do not want to!

We can learn a lot from thru-hikers and I do like how the UL trend is making equipment manufacturers think on how to reduce weight in gear and develop new materials.

One way to save weight that has yet to be mentioned, is going in a group. Sharing group gear really helps. One first aid kit, one cook set, one tent, one GPS or PLB if you carry that stuff, one mulit-tool type knife, share fishing gear.

I Just ran into another pertinent article on the safety issue, published today, in one of my favorite blogs, and hasten to share it!

Nine Essential Ultralight Backpacking Skills.

As pointed out by Andrew Skurka in the comments, these skills are needed not just for "ultralight" hikers but for every hiker!

Re the "Super-Ultralite" gear list I linked to above--it doesn't show prices, but if you look up a few, you'll go into real sticker shock, perhaps requiring CPR!

OM, your "Nine Essential Ultralight Backpacking Skills. " link is a good article. I was interested to see how they framed that and I agree, every backpacker should have those skills. What's missing from the conversation there, and in general, is the how to go about learning it part. Those that stick out most to me are:

"Weather and Environmental Awareness"

"On-Trail and Off-Trail Navigation"

It's good advice to offer that one has these skills but there's not a lot of detailed info out there on good ways to safely acquire them. Googling "learn how to hike off trail" doesn't provide much. The number one link goes to a "Backpacker.com" article titled "Master Class: Off-Trail Hiking", but it doesn't even touch on what I'd consider to be some very key factors, one of which is something both you and I have pointed out more than once: "Turn around and look at where you've come from often so you know what to look for on the way back".

In general, I think most backpackers don't really even think much about how to acquire those skills or even try to. They avoid the first by convincing themselves they're prepared for whatever comes and the second by never venturing off trail.

In the Ozarks, if you're paying attention, you can feel a rain shower coming in the way the wind changes. The wind gets sucked towards the shower when it's heading your way and that will give you a five or ten minute heads up to prepare. The stronger the wind, the faster it's coming. If you listen, you'll hear it coming a minute or two before it gets to you.

If you can't travel off trail in the Ozarks with nothing but a topo map you really need to practice your skills. The terrain is so well defined here that you really shouldn't even need a map or compass to find your way back. Most anyplace with hills or mountains is like that.

The thing is, it's not easy to write about how to acquire these skills and making a video isn't much better. I think they're best learned in person while doing it with someone's who's competent to teach them, and then practicing what you've learned.

I've probably looked up articles on navigation half a dozen times, with the intent of working through them. Even though it seems like a really interesting topic, I've never made it through even one of those written articles. I'm thinking that learning it in real life (RL) with a coach is the way to go.

One of the best books on navigation is "Be Expert with Map and Compass" by Bjorn Kjellstrom. It has a map and baseplate protractor to work with and has a workbook that you work through.

It does teach the basics of topographical maps and a baseplate compass. I enjoy the book and try to work through it every 5 years or so as a refresher.

It's not that I can't understand the material. It's just that it's really dry to learn an outdoor skill like this from a book or article. I find myself dozing off trying to read them. That's why I think hands on training with an instructor would be better.

That's what I always liked about the Be Expert with Map and Compass, it is hands on using the map and the protractor or you can use a baseplate compass like a Suunto. There is some reading, of course but mostly it gets applied to the problems in the workbook.

As far as finding a teacher, there are some out there but from my experience few have more than rudimentary skills themselves. Unless you find an old Special Forces trained person, the land navigation training in the SFQC is very well taught. although more military related in some regards.

They are pretty dry and boring, and it's math, and geometry. Ugh.

But, in real life there's another way... I call it "Remembering"

The old adage "You seen one tree you seen them all" is true for a lot of people, and most of them will get lost in a forest pretty fast. In the old days an Ozarker might give directions something like, "Follow this road. After it crosses the creek the Yocum's place is in third hollow on the left."

If you were an Ozarker that's everything you needed to know and all you had to remember. The actual distance didn't really didn't matter much, nor did the twists and turns the road and hollows might take. That's still pretty much how I bushwhack here.

To be able to do this you have to pay attention, but you can learn it on a trail just as easy as bushwhacking. Consider, on a trail here you might walk by a dozen hollows on one side of a creek or ridge and never even think about them because you don't really have to. If you had paid attention, and counted them as you went, you could pull out a topo map showing that trail and pinpoint your location on it without a compass or a GPS. The same is true if you're bushwhacking, though it takes a little faith to believe it at first.

In the West, the topography is bigger, but the same thing applies. If you apply it on both the large and small scale, you can learn to bushwhack like Wondering_Daisy and wander around for months and always know where you are to a pretty fine point.

If you've got a topo map and a compass and some mountains, learning how to triangulate your position is easy, and that's a skill worth practicing while your out backpacking, and I think everyone should now and then. I pretty much eyeball it now, but that works pretty good too with practice.

Getting a GPS helped me a lot because it gave me confirmation that I knew where I was, and with that I learned I alway did know. When I first got one I carried it with me and watched it while I hiked. It didn't take long for me to realize I didn't like that. Now I use them to record a track more than anything, and to set waypoints for spots that are interesting. I like my printed topo maps a lot more, and use them with the GPS as a cross reference, if I use it.

Navigation in large flatlands and at sea is entirely different. I've studied it a bit, but never practiced it. I've always been fixated on exploring rivers, creeks, and mountains. But I would love to get a sextant and fiddle with it enough to locate myself (even somewhat) with it. I'm afraid all I'd prove though is that those who use them are a lot better at math than I and that I don't have the tenacity to learn it.

Good thing I am good at reading maps! If I had to depend on remembering, I would never get out. My short term memory gets worse every year I get older.

You really do not need a lot of math to use a map and compass. You can do it graphically. Each map has a symbol that shows an arrow for north and another arrow for the magnetic declination. Just line up your map using those arrows. Same with setting your compass. The biggest thing is to look at a feature on the map and then find it on the ground. This is a matter of practice. Of course, you need to be with someone who knows how to read maps so they can tell you if you are right or wrong. And the rule of "v"'s. Ridges contours point downhill; valley contours point uphill. The closer the contour lines, the steeper the terrain. You can become a good map reader without knowing much about math. It is like I can be a good driver without knowing exactly how my car works under the hood. I never look under the hood!

For what it's worth, WD, I am in awe of your skill, but I know it was hard won.

re: the discussion on ultralite.

I discovered here, some time ago, that I am one of the "ultralighters" and thought I'd offer a few thoughts.

I've always been very light (well almost always), originally because I didn't have very much and didn't have the money for more. But what I had was heavy for what it did.

A few years ago (well, ten or twelve to be more exact) it became obvious that I had to lighten up or quit backpacking, and by that time, I had a few bucks extra, so I replaced the heavy-for-their-jobs equipment, one item at a time. My best help in this was Mountain Laurel Designs and Western Mountaineering.

But a key factor was experience. I never had a tent, wasn't used to using one, so I didn't feel the need to buy one. Same with a number of other things. Never had many extra clothes, so never got used to having them (like others, I carry extra socks and undies). The list could go on.

But it also helps that I camp in order to hike, so don't spend much time in camp.

But the most critical factor is that I learned by experience that one need not be dependent on fancy equipment. Take it very slow, and be aware of what you are doing, and you can learn to be safe and comfortable without many pounds of gear. Yes it does require experience and paying thoughtful attention as you gain it. I would not send a beginner into the woods for ten days with my pack.

Slightly off topic, but weather is also a factor. One needs a fairly good idea of what to expect and to pack accordingly. Since I grew up in the Ozarks, there was real nostalgia for me in billstephenson's description of the signs of changing weather and navigation there. I remember that quite clearly once mentioned, but would not have been able to call it back on my own. Thanks Bill.

Absolutely. If you've got a clear view across a valley or hollow to the ridge on the other side you should be able to locate a point on that ridge by it's shape represented on a topo map. That's always be easy for me, but I've seen some people struggle with it.

Personally, I struggle with the way Google shades their 3D representations of topography on their maps. I see it in reverse. The peaks look like valleys to me.


I've never heard or even really thought about that before. I like that. I'll remember that when showing others where we're at on a map.

You know, Lewis and Clark made maps as they went and kept daily journals of their travels. When I'm talking about "remembering" I'm thinking more about where you take shorter hikes to visit a spot not far from where you've set up camp.

For example, last week I took 3 people with me on a short bushwhack down a creek. When we reached a fork where another creek joined the one we were on I pointed out that a trail crossed there that led back to where we'd all parked going one way, and back to my camp going the other. Then we continued on.

On the way back everyone with me wanted to take the wrong fork back to where I was camped, and they were all convinced I was leading them the wrong way when I insisted they follow me. It wasn't until they saw my bright orange tent they were convinced otherwise.

The point is, between the three of them they didn't recognize a single thing on the way back. Not a tree, or any rock formations, not even the fork in the creek that I'd stopped them at and pointed out to them, nothing.

All I needed to recall going back is that a we came down on the right side of the 1st fork in the creek and right above the next fork on the right was where I was camped.

If you practice stopping and making a point to look around and find something unique you will recall it. I've learned to make this a habit by kicking myself when I forget to do it. I still forget sometimes though. It's pretty easy to just walk and let the scenery pass by.

I'm mostly a seasonal hiker and find it takes days each new year for my eyes to become "forest conditioned" (lacking a better term). At some point I find nature's chaos and clutter becomes somehow ordered and again I feel at home. Until that happens I'm kind of a menace.

When hiking with my kid we take off-trail breaks and I have her lead me back to the trail. It's no grand scheme but I always want her thinking about where she is, has just been and is heading. Like "drownproofing" via swimming lessons, "lostproofing" is what we hope we can provide for our kids/students.

Cheers,

A base weight of 15 pounds sounds pretty good to me! I would just go with it!

advice from others says REI is a good choice