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#183640 - 03/07/14 04:46 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: Swizzle]
bluefish Offline
member

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 680
Line your pack with a garbage bag. Wear a tarp /poncho The poncho will cover your pack, too. Put your tarp/tent where you can get at it first out of the pack. Keep it outside the liner.
Set your shelter, get inside, replace whatever clothes need replacing. For the time being put your wet things in a plastic bag or stuff sack. My wife and I have walked in rain for 3 days straight and slept warm and dry. I like tents that you can put up the fly, crawl underneath and clip up the inner. Tarps are quick and easy for the rain. ALWAYS keep your sleeping gear and a set of sleep wear dry. If you have to put damp clothes back on in the morning, just get moving and you'll warm up, especially if you use a base layer of Merino wool. Fleece seems to work fine for me damp, also. I don't expect perfect comfort levels in wilderness, just tolerable ones. Adventure comes in adversity. grin
I do carry a mesh bag to tie outside my pack for things to dry in as I walk if the rain has stopped the next day.
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#183641 - 03/07/14 04:51 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: Swizzle]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

Have a look at list in my signature, and look up lists on this site.

Short answer - synthetics.

Slightly longer answer:

I normally (outside of serious weather) wear synthetic underwear, synthetic pants, and a synthetic shirt. I sweat while I hike, and I might get wet. rainy weather I have a shell on, and maybe a fleece - I'm usually more concerned about being *cold* than wet.

Now my pants are nice high end schoeller fabric - but I'm a princess. a nice pair of nylon pants from the thrift store will also work fine - polyester dress pants are actually good if you can get a good fit.

Most of my "keep it dry and warm" stuff is wool. often merino. but well, I hike a lot and I can afford it. You can do very well
with synthetic (fleece) warm layers or nice cheap wool sweaters from the thrift store.

Note, if I get wet while walking, that's fine. I keep walking, and stay warm, either by moving, or putting on a shell and fleece. once I stop, I put up my shelter, get into enough dry stuff to be comfortable. I may hang out my pants and socks at night to get some dry on them, but this sometimes mean I get to put on cold icky wet stuff in the morning, which is unpleasant for the first few minutes until I start moving around. Normally it's enough for me to do that.

It also helps if you have a good sleeping bag. You should be able to get into your bag, cold, and warm up smile
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#183642 - 03/07/14 05:30 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: phat]
Swizzle Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Southern Adirondacks of New Yo...
I never paid enough attention to the layers. Always been a tshirt out of my drawer and whatever sweater or hoodies that's warm and my winter coat and rain jacket if need be. Almost impossible to get the rain jacket on over my coat. I've never been a big fan of ponchos, most likely since I usually only have the trash bag style emergency type. It looks like I could really benefit by breaking down and analyzing all of my gear. I've been seeing a few "wicking" tees here and there so I'm guessing I should start with wicking fabrics. Also considering a down sweater and will be getting a down jacket soon. That's my next goal is to possibly do away with my sleeping bag. If I could find some down pants I think I could do it. I do like the tarp poncho idea and I love the rainfly that the tent clips too as well. Some ideas to mull over. Thank you everyone. smile

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#183643 - 03/07/14 05:30 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: Swizzle]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
If you are really interested in lightening your pack, I suggest you read the articles and gear lists on the home page of this site, left hand column, if you haven't already. The lists were designed for the Pacific NW, which is quite soggy and cool for 9-10 months of the year. Another good article is this one by guide and thru-hiker Paul Magnati.

I have backpacked without a campfire for the last 30 years, except for a very few occasions when it was legal (only when fire danger was low) and my grandkids were with me. In most of the places I backpack (above timberline or during our annual dry season when fire danger is high), campfires are forbidden. Plus I've gotten so used to not having a fire that I really don't want one--I'd rather explore the area around camp, watch the sunset, and admire the stars.

Synthetic clothing dries really fast just with body heat. Even if I'm sopping wet, mine will be dry after 20 minutes of hiking or other fairly vigorous activity. (Keep in mind that I'm a slow hiker, so my activity really isn't all that vigorous.) Normally, as soon as it starts raining, I immediately put on rain jacket and pants to keep my clothing dry. The only exception is in a warm drizzle, in which I get as wet inside the rain gear as I would from the rain, and it's warm enough that as long as I keep moving, I don't need to worry about hypothermia. I love natural fabrics, especially cotton, but I don't wear them backpacking, and I'm truly thankful for modern synthetics every time I get even damp!

If you need a fire to dry your clothing, I strongly suspect that you may be wearing cotton, which absorbs a lot of water and takes a long time to dry. If so, I strongly recommend you ditch those items (wear them at home, not in the wilds). You don't have to buy expensive "hiking clothing." You can find things like nylon track pants, synthetic wicking shirts (such Underarmor), and polyester fleece at any big box store (KMart, wallyworld, discount sporting goods chains) and often at your local thrift stores. Most will be in the athletic section. Some may already be in your closet!

For the items in your pack, use a pack liner to keep them dry. The cheapest is a 2 mil plastic trash compactor bag, IF you can find any that aren't scented (I've had no luck there). A contractor's trash bag (2-2.5 mil) is also a possibility. Make sure it's fastened tightly (twist the top and then fold over into a "candy cane" closure). One of phat's posts above talks about the gear he keeps dry at all costs--base layer and insulation (sleeping bag and insulating clothes layers such as my puffy jacket). I do the same.

If it has been warm but wet and I've not worn rain gear, my shirt, pants, undies, socks go into a 2-gallon plastic ziplock bag which goes into my sleeping bag (no, you don't want wet clothing in your sleeping bag). It of course doesn't dry (or get the sleeping bag damp), but it's warm when I put it on in the morning and, as mentioned, dries really fast from my body heat.

Even the time I slipped and fell (big splash and considerable unladylike language!) while fording a creek, I was dry after 20 minutes of hiking. The exception was my goretex lined boots, which took several days to dry--and that was the last time I ever wore goretex-lined footwear! If it had been cold, say the low 40s F or below, I might have stopped and built a fire, certainly if hiking wasn't enough to keep me warm. If it had been windy, while moving I would have put on my rain gear and stayed warm but wet inside, and my shirt/pants would have at least gotten drier, if not completely dry. Fortunately, the temp was in the mid 50's F so I was fine as long as I kept moving. My extra clothing and sleeping bag were all in waterproof dry bags (alternative to the waterproof pack liner) and not a drop of water got to them.

IMHO, a campfire is a luxury except in a dire emergency, and part of the skills needed for backpacking include learning to avoid such emergencies if at all possible.

_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#183661 - 03/08/14 12:16 AM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: OregonMouse]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
IMHO, a campfire is a luxury except in a dire emergency, and part of the skills needed for backpacking include learning to avoid such emergencies if at all possible.


OM, please don't read this as an attack on you. It's not. Your opinion is common and the following rant in response is really offered in a very general way.

IMHO that's a very Western States attitude that really should stay out west. There is no good reason, no matter how delicately put, to admonish people here about having campfires.

The thing that sticks in my craw about this opinion when it's preached beyond your (westerners) area is that it feels very much like we're being told campfires are irresponsible and reckless and akin to dumping toxic waste in the pristine wilderness. And it's constantly preached beyond the Western States.

I've watched it move beyond necessity to a self declared more refined lifestyle that's now presented as if the unlearned destroy the Feng shui for the more cultured and refined backpacker because we haven't reached that higher plateau where the truly enlightened backpacker has learned to become one with the forest nights.

The truth is still the truth. You don't have campfires out there because you can't. The reason you can't is because too many reckless people out there burn the forests up. But to leap from that truth to believing not having them anywhere is a higher state of being is nothing more than an exaggerated sense of one's self.

The flip side to the lack of enlightenment admonishment so often doled out to us less refined is that the Western Backpacker has lost touch with the simple pleasure one can experience by letting themselves become mesmerized in our deep human connection with sitting by a fire at night, and how sad it is for this to have happened to them.

The difference is that this is not constantly preached at those out west. We actually understand the reasons why you can't have campfires and we don't have them when we go out there backpacking.

Y'all never come here. For the most part westerners think there's no place here worth backpacking. Most every backpacker I know here has backpacked out west, and most all of them say they like backpacking here better, and having campfires is always one of the top reasons.

My observations are somewhat validated by the time I've spent living in both regions, but my conclusions are still just a general critique of the western backpacker's views on campfires and should not be taken as a personal attack on anyone. I'll add that one does not have to live out west to qualify my lumping them in there either. We have self proclaimed "Enlightened" backpackers here too that think hiking off trail is a desecration of the forests. Opinions are funny that way. Trails look just like giant scars on the forest to me.

One might stretch that into "I'd only use a trail in an emergency and part of the skills needed for backpacking include learning to avoid such emergencies". But I won't.
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"You want to go where?"



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#183663 - 03/08/14 02:20 AM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: billstephenson]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Bill, I apologize if my wording made you think I'm condemning campfires. Such was not my intention!

You noticed, I hope, that I prefaced my comments with IMHO--in my humble opinion, which is that of one person, me. Obviously there are as many other opinions out there as there are people to have them, which is just fine.

Even back east (for us, that's anything east of the Rockies, LOL), there are situations in which either fires are not allowed because of their long-term impact (there are strict altitude restrictions on fires in New Hampshire's White Mountains, for example), or all the wood is just too soggy to build one without considerable effort (happens out here, too, in our wet season), or there is high fire danger--droughts and forest fires occur in the East, too, just not as frequently. I have lived in and hiked in the East and Midwest (Pennsylvania and Michigan, mostly) and encountered all three situations at various times.

One of the Leave No Trace principles is "Minimize campfire impacts" (it does not say no fires!). In many areas there are, of course, a number of ways to do this without forgoing a fire, especially in low altitude damp forest. I just happen to feel that, for me, a fire is a lot more trouble than it's worth, even if I am where they are OK. I also far prefer backpacking in alpine areas, where fires are a no-no because of their long-lasting impact, to low altitude forest where fires are normally OK outside of the fire danger season.

My whole purpose in stating why I don't have campfires was simply to point out to the OP, who apparently believes it essential to dry out by a fire every night, that it's quite possible to get along without a campfire, and I described some of the techniques to use. I was not trying to admonish anyone, and I'm truly sorry you took it that way.

I do believe (and that's my opinion) that a campfire should be a luxury. If people want to and can indulge in one every night, that's fine. I indulge in quite a few luxuries (although not a fire) myself! My point is that we shouldn't have to depend on a fire for daily survival. For example, in my experience it's far better to strip off wet clothing and get promptly into a dry sleeping bag to stay warm than to wander around in the rain shivering trying to find something that will burn after a cloudburst! (Been there, done that, don't recommend it!)

Again, I'm not condemning all fires, just stating that it's quite possible and also a good idea to be able to do without one if necessary.


Edited by OregonMouse (03/08/14 02:31 AM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#183668 - 03/08/14 11:36 AM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: billstephenson]
jimmyb Offline
member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Quote:
The thing that sticks in my craw about this opinion when it's preached beyond your (westerners) area is that it feels very much like we're being told campfires are irresponsible and reckless and akin to dumping toxic waste in the pristine wilderness. And it's constantly preached beyond the Western States.

I've watched it move beyond necessity to a self declared more refined lifestyle that's now presented as if the unlearned destroy the Feng shui for the more cultured and refined backpacker because we haven't reached that higher plateau where the truly enlightened backpacker has learned to become one with the forest nights.


Sticking my neck out I will say "well said". Sometimes I really get that feeling and IMO a lot of it is simply the growing divide between liberal and conservative personalities having NOTHING to do with politics. I get the same feeling sometimes when I tell people I sleep in a tent. Well it seems its not "Chic" to carry a more or less self contained ground sleeping shelter...even if it weighs less than someone's tarp or hammock set up. Geez, get over it. I like to sleep on the ground. East, Midwest, West, North and South in this vast country have many inherent differences. We need to understand that what is right for one may not be so for the other.

Fires for me are very enjoyable if I have the time at the end of the day and am not tired enough to just hit the hay. On average I go without. On the other hand I respect the rules and regs. when elsewhere in the country. I would never think of having a fire during a dry spell be it East OR West. I will say if I'm going to have a fire out East here it will be in a pre designated AT fire ring or similar camp sight but that's just me. I do have a problem with fire rings left every where especially in no fire zones. That burns my *ss. (no pun intended) I don't want to see the remains of anyone's fire. If your practicing LNT than that is fine, I wont be seeing your fire remains anyway. Hopefully the OP will practice LNT, keep his fires to a minimum and disperse the remains properly when leaving his camp.

In closing, OM I have no doubt that your post was not intended to step on any toes and I think both you and Bill have given due respect to each other in your posts. goodjob

jimmyb

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#183674 - 03/08/14 04:04 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: OregonMouse]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
Bill, I apologize if my wording made you think I'm condemning campfires. Such was not my intention!


No apologies are warranted. Not in the least.

I understood your intentions and I understand your view on fires. You made it clear to me that you were speaking of your personal way of doing things.

My response is intended to address the broader issue of rather or not a campfire is "bad etiquette" and the fact that some backpackers do feel very strongly that it is, and how others might feel when they read opinions like yours, which might be easy to put in the context I refer to, as an admonishment. It's very similar to how foreigner's feel when americans go there and tell them "You're doing it all wrong" before they've even asked why they do things the way they do.

Personally, I don't get all freaked out when I see a fire ring. I do detest finding trash in them, but fire rings don't bother me in the least. I see them as a sign someone enjoyed themselves out there and I don't see a reason to let that bother me.

My personal preferences is to LNT and you can do that here with a small fire. I like knowing no one could tell I've camped somewhere, or at least not easily.






Edited by billstephenson (03/08/14 05:53 PM)
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#183676 - 03/08/14 05:58 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: billstephenson]
jimmyb Offline
member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Bill I think the trash issue is what bothers me about most of the fire sights I come across. If they are not used as trash bins OK but most I've seen have been. Farther off the trailhead is not usually an issue but broken glass around a fire sight could end some ones day on a really bad note.. Last outing I dispersed one at an AT sight. The rules, in that area at least, were to use the communal fire at the hut but sure enough right in the middle of a nice tent area was a redundant ring. Another roaring fire was made by yet another party just down the hill from us. Soon it becomes more like a campground than a trail experience. But that may be one of the differences in two areas of BPing. smile Easy access to the AT is great for some quick local weekenders but unfortunately it comes with a price.

jimmyb

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#183679 - 03/08/14 08:23 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: jimmyb]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
It's pretty much the same here at the popular campsites. There are some really nice, and easily accessible, swimming holes here that get trashed bad. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and walk away. And sometimes you have to pick up their bottles and bean them with one mad

grin








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"You want to go where?"



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#183682 - 03/08/14 10:50 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: billstephenson]
Swizzle Offline
member

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 101
Loc: Southern Adirondacks of New Yo...
I've been to several places in the Adirondacks that are scorched and trashed from irresponsible campers. I do my best to just realize that its a strong possibility that I'm gonna see trash and try to not let it bother me. I take a little comfort knowing that after a weekend of camping a little more room is made. I usually pack up some old cans and any bottles and hike them back out. If I focus on that one piece o trash then it really dampens the whole trip. It is what it is and try to leave the place a little better then the last guy/girl or group.

I also know how sickening it is to see charred sticks still leaning up against charred bark on a live tree with a cement fire pit literally 30ft away. To see the forest duff scorched for several acres. It's a lot of stupidity and inexperienced young hikers.

Wait...weren't we talking about tarps? smile

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#183709 - 03/10/14 05:32 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: billstephenson]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Bill, first off, you know I live out west. Most of the time, and most of the places I go allow fires. So, this is not a dis on fires, and has nothing to do with their use in recreational activities.

However, when talking about safety, I think fires should be a luxury. The most difficult situation to light a fire is also the most dangerous to be in, ie, cold and wet. If you are drenched to the bone and all the wood around you is soaked...you have a small chance to light a fire and get warm. It is more responsible to have another plan.
Of course, you should still have a backup plan of a fire. I try and practice lighting a fire with wet wood, and also carry several means of starting a fire.
But, sometimes Murphy just doesn't like me!
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#183711 - 03/10/14 06:26 PM Re: Tent, Tarp or Tarp Tent or.... [Re: finallyME]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
However, when talking about safety, I think fires should be a luxury.


I completely agree. If you're needing to light a fire to stay alive too many things have already gone wrong.
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