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#183295 - 02/26/14 03:05 PM Re: just say no? [Re: balzaccom]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Originally Posted By balzaccom
I am chuckling a little bit here, thinking of all the times that we have encouraged a newbie on these boards to join a meet-up hiking group....

Maybe we are to blame for Lori's string of bad experiences?

I have to admit, one of the reasons that I am very careful about the people I hike with is because hiking is sacred to me--and I am sure I couldn't do what Lori does.


Someone has to be the scapegoat. laugh


Edited by ETSU Pride (02/26/14 03:07 PM)
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

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#183296 - 02/26/14 03:06 PM Re: just say no? [Re: balzaccom]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 933
Loc: Knoxville, TN
In all honesty, I don't mind taking newbies hiking. I'm just a shy around new people, thus, I be a boring person hike with unless we knew each other.
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It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

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#183297 - 02/26/14 03:14 PM Re: just say no? [Re: ETSU Pride]
Gershon Offline
member

Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
Lori,

Running a meet-up group is often a thankless job filled with frustration. I was in the same position with a motorcycle group and finally gave up. You'd think that when we went out for a ride with temperatures near zero, people would at least wear gloves and a heavy jacket.

My riding partner and I finally turned the leadership over to another rider and we pursued our own riding interests.
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#183298 - 02/26/14 03:32 PM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
When I lead trips for the CMC (California Mountaineering Club) I was pretty much a hard-a**. I would lift everyone's pack, and simply take unneeded extra stuff out of their packs. Because, once you form a "team", each person is responsible for the other - and that means if someone poops out the group carries their gear. The expedition is only as strong as its weakest link.

I quit leading trips because I became burned out and on the last trip there was a huge breach of safety due to participants not following the agreed upon procedure. And this was on a technical climb so someone could easily have been killed. Maybe you should just take a break for a while. After all you have done, nobody would think less of you.


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#183299 - 02/26/14 03:35 PM Re: just say no? [Re: balzaccom]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
The real problem is word of mouth. 90% of the group had never heard of meetup before, but a friend in the group encouraged them to join.

People have horrible taste in friends.

In any case, it's not just in my group - there is a reason the poor ranger in Evolution was soooooo exasperated when he explained to us (for probably the 1,000 time that day) that going in the alpine when a storm was due in any minute was foolhardy. I think we made his day when we told him if it was still storming we'd go back instead of forward.

We watched at least a dozen JMT hikers in shorts and tank tops hiking through the driving rain toward the basin at dusk. Clearly lightning or hypothermia is nothing compared to the horrors of being late to Whitney.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

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#183302 - 02/26/14 04:14 PM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
bluefish Offline
member

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 680
In some circles, hiking is kind of chic. So, people gravitate towards hiking on the advice of a friend and though they see its merits, aren't about to put effort and thought into it. I'm the same way with Smart Phones . I can see their merits , but I'm not going to go out of my way to learn or use them. If someone is hiking with that type of attitude and someone in the group told them they couldn't burn a tiny little piece of garbage and had to bag their crap and put it in their pack, I can easily envision a response: Who the he.. is this Eco- Nazi? LNT to me, requires an investment in an aesthetic- you have to have an appreciation for what you're preserving and wish to see it maintained in perpetuity. Hiking once in awhile as something "cool" to do,or just for exercize, usually won't give you that much of a buy in. Thanks to the internet and endless instructional videos, it appears almost anything can be learned and accomplished. I DO say something on the trail when I see people heading towards SAR incidents. Amazingly I've had people thank me for it. Yeah that video on the cat can stove was great until you burned the crap out of yourself when you couldn't see the flame, and on top of that you torched your tent because you cooked in its vestibule and knocked it over! It also wasn't in the video how to erect your tent in the dark with 60 mph winds, because you WAY overestimated your ability to get over the pass and down again.... I survived a lot of stupid mistakes and misadventures long before the internet, now it seems arrogance and ignorance has become exponentially worse. Fortunately, I ran into a few people like lori, and unlike some of her group, put my learning cap on and shut my mouth so they could teach me what I needed to know about what I was passionate about.
In a nutshell, if someone is enthusiastic and listens when you offer solid advice, they're worth the effort in my book.
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#183305 - 02/26/14 05:53 PM Re: just say no? [Re: wandering_daisy]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By wandering_daisy
I quit leading trips because I became burned out .... Maybe you should just take a break for a while. After all you have done, nobody would think less of you.


That's really good advice to consider. When it's no longer fun or interesting it may be time to move on, but when it becomes a source of frustration you really have to think about why you're doing it.

I think a lot of us are here in part to give something back. There has to be some balance in that and when you do that like you do (Lori), with taking groups out, that's the real heavy lifting part of the endeavor.

There's a point when you can (and should) pass that kind heavy lifting on to someone else and be satisfied you've done more than your share.

We all need something we do just for ourselves. Backpacking and hiking is something I do for pure fun. I backpack for me.

So I agree with W_D. Take a break from the groups. Make it fun for you again, and don't feel a lick of guilt about that either. You can be proud of what you've given back. It's a lot more than most of us will be able to.
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#183306 - 02/26/14 06:12 PM Re: just say no? [Re: billstephenson]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
I guess it's not really clear - I'm not burned out. Frustrated with the sudden upswing of people who cannot possibly be predictable as problems, yes.

I am quite burnt out with my job. On the verge of walking out without having another in place, in fact - if you think this issue with hikers is even half so stressful as the job has been for me, boy, don't get me started.

The fact that I am seeing this sort of thing everywhere - not just the hiking group, but at work, online, and in the schools my job sends me into - says a lot about the direction we are headed as a society. At which point going somewhere into the mountains and setting up a goat farm sounds like a viable alternative to all of it.
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http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#183314 - 02/26/14 10:37 PM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
jimmyb Offline
member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 276
Quote:
On the verge of walking out without having another in place, in fact


laugh Amen! Done that more times than I can remember. However I don't recommend it. Yes it is the MOST liberating feeling in the world....for about 5 min. and then you get a sick feeling in your gut about what will come next.

I just wanted to show some support for you as I am so jaded by this ever progressive world that I am no one to give advise. At least for this "old school" boy things are progressing way to fast and it seems my morals and ethics are outdated. I guess I am entering into the passing generation and that may be why I too see this kind of thing everywhere.

So good luck however you decide to handle it and if you go the route of the Goat farm don't forget to let us know how it works out. Heck I shoulda thought of doing something like that years ago. grin

jimmyb

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#183318 - 02/26/14 11:16 PM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
going somewhere into the mountains and setting up a goat farm sounds like a viable alternative to all of it.


It is.

Just say go? wink
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"You want to go where?"



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#183333 - 02/27/14 12:27 AM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
bobito9 Offline
member

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 408
Is your group a Meet-up group? I'd worry about the ability to pre-screen well there. I use to lead a backpacking trips for the local Sierra Club, and I think one of a leader's responsibilities is definitely to not let people attend if they are not properly prepared, so I'm with you on not letting the guy attend. Of course, I found that kind of hard to do myself because I'm a nice guy and I don't like rejecting people. Still, it's for their own good and the good of everyone else on the trip.
I never had problems with people who were as lame and stubborn as that guy sounds, but once, on a beginners backpack I was leading, I was looking at this woman with her pack on, thinking "hmmm, what's wrong with this picture?", when I realized she had her backpack on upside down. I also had a participant once who I soon realized was truly, seriously mentally ill, as well as profoundly annoying. Not good

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#183334 - 02/27/14 12:30 AM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
bobito9 Offline
member

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 408
interesting that you are finding this to be a trend. Is it youngsters who were just raised to think that anything they do will be easy for them because they are Truly Great? (after all, ma and pa always told them so)


Edited by bobito9 (02/27/14 12:41 AM)

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#183338 - 02/27/14 06:06 AM Re: just say no? [Re: bobito9]
PerryMK Online   content
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: Florida panhandle
As a qualifier to my experience, I've been assistant organizer on a few meetup groups for easy day hikes but am not in the hiker-leader league of most of you.

My biggest problem was people seldom showed up. I'm reading the experiences on this thread and thinking, "Wow, how did they get so many people to show up?"

When I decided to start a section-day-hike of the Florida National Scenic Trail I posted my intentions along with required abilities (mainly the ability to walk 10 miles without undo discomfort, a few other things) to see if I could get any hike partners. Two people responded. Neither had ever walked more than 3 miles in their lives and wanted to sign up for a 12 mile excursion. I refused them both as even if they did show up (doubtful) I was concerned for their physical well being.

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#183339 - 02/27/14 06:26 AM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
OttoStover Offline
member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 62
Loc: Norway
I really had to smile when skimming through the tread. It really raises a good debate. Do some people really want to learn before an accident happen? Or is it easier to rely on the SAR to bale them out?

I think that many people think that it is just a matter of minutes from the accident until they are lifted away in a helicopter. Too many tv shows have shown this. Well tough luck. Also some suppliers of equipment contribute by giving false promises. Last year we had a snow avalance tragedy where just one in a company of seven survived. They all had top gear, including airbags that was said to give 98% survival rate in an avalance. One of them was found under over seven meters of hard snow!

I do not arrange group tours, but I try to help people from middle of Europe with facts about hiking in Norway. And every spring there are a lot of hikers that insist on hiking as early as april. They seem to be unable to comprehend that we go skiing in the mountains until mid may! Even june is questionable most places, lots of snow and swollen rivers.

It is not new that young people think they are immortal and knowitall. What is new is their lack of understanding of the forces of the nature.

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#183342 - 02/27/14 08:27 AM Re: just say no? [Re: OttoStover]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Quote:
Yes, there will be kooks along the way, welcome to the internet.


And speaking as someone who worked retail in an outdoor store 30 years ago, I'd not blame your phenomenon of entitled idiots that won't listen on young whippersnappers or spoiled kids. Such people have always existed in droves, and are fundamentally lazy. The internet just makes it easier for them to find people like us, where before they would have had to get off the couch, and go somewhere to do so which put a filter on their numbers right away. Now they watch an episode of Bear Grylls, type two search terms into Google during a commercial, and they are here asking us questions while Bear builds a platform to sleep on to avoid bears, or walks around naked trying to hit trout...

If I'm gonna "blame" anyone I'll blame the media and their thirst for money. Same people I blame for an ignorant and distracted by sensationalism electorate smile






Edited by phat (02/27/14 09:05 AM)
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#183348 - 02/27/14 11:57 AM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
Lori,

Maybe move up here? I'm not saying we don't have idiots (oh my goodness do we ever), however we still have a "you are on your own" thing going. I don't think this will last too much longer, but at the very least people who live in the state don't expect to be rescued while hiking. (I'm not counting Denali National Park.) We have some great hiking too!

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#183357 - 02/27/14 06:35 PM Re: just say no? [Re: Heather-ak]
Glenn Roberts Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
Hi, Lori. I'd second the advice about taking a break from leading, if it's really getting to you. Of course, simply saying "no" a lot more frequently has the same effect, if you're not really wanting to give it up completely.

I hit the same burnout point a few years ago; I took a year or so away from it, and then eased back in. I found two local folks (an outfitter store, and an independent guide) who run trips (mostly beginner, but a few intermediate) for a fee. I end up paying to go along (though they occasionally give me a discount), and I function as an unofficial "assistant leader." They make all the decisions and deal with all the problems, and I get to do the stuff I like: work with the folks who do want to learn. Occasionally, I'm able to help turn a borderline idiot around, but if I don't want to deal with them, I don't have to.

If you do want a vacation, take one. If you're like me, you started doing this for fun, not as a job; when it quits being fun, I'll stop. Luckily, I'm nowhere near that point yet.

Finally, remember what Kevin Costner said in "The Guardian": "you swim as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and save as many as you can; the ocean takes the rest."

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#183366 - 02/27/14 10:51 PM Re: just say no? [Re: Glenn Roberts]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
NOPE, still not burned out.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#183370 - 02/27/14 11:58 PM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
I am quite burnt out with my job. On the verge of walking out without having another in place


I have never hesitated to quit working anywhere that didn't appreciate me, or if I just felt like moving on. I have always held that I work for me.

After living in cities for about 22 years I finally decided to move to the mountains, and I did.

It took me a few years to get here, there were some unexpected sidetracks along the way, but all my work from that point on was towards that goal.

Most everyone told me I was making a huge mistake. That I'd be back. That'd I'd miss the city and be bored to death. That I'd never find work or earn enough to live on.

But I kept thinking, I've been to places I'd like to live, and people live there, and they make a living, and they seem happy enough to me. That made more sense to me, so I ignored what most everyone told me.

I'm not giving you advice or encouraging you to quit your job, but I'll tell you the same thing my father used to tell me, which was handed down by his father, and so on:

"The only thing that's stopping you is the fear in your heart and the lead in your ass."

Making a big change is never easy but I've always considered those words when I've thought about things like quitting a job or moving someplace else. They have empowered me because they shift any blame onto me and I know that's truly where it belongs.

As a result I've quit quite a few jobs and I've moved quite a few times. Life has gotten better each time. It's been good here for a long time.

Anyway, you lose the fear after a bit and then you know that's all there ever was stopping you. At that point quitting a sucky job and moving some place you like is pretty easy.
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#183401 - 02/28/14 09:14 PM Re: just say no? [Re: lori]
Glenn Roberts Online   content
Moderator

Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 2208
Loc: Southwest Ohio
That's great - I was misinterpreting your posts, I guess. HEY, were you just venting, like we all have to do occasionally? smile

I'm glad you're not burned out. But, seriously, every once in a while, take a trip that's just for you (whether you go alone or with people you really want to be with.) You deserve it.

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