There has been an upswing lately in posts by confessed noobs on a few of the forums I frequent (or lurk in) seeking early season trip options.

I also have a trip the last weekend of March with some of my hiking group. I was contacted by a noob who came with me on a four day in Point Reyes. He wanted to go with me in March and cited his PR trip as proof he could do it. The Oholone trail is several orders of magnitude harder than PR, twice the miles and a lot more cumulative gain, and he just got a new pack. I can quote the numbers at him but it will do no good - machismo, enthusiasm and noob excitement are driving him, and he has already decided he has a future in "leading" trips - yet he has a curiously hard head when it comes to learning anything. He nearly blew up someone else's stove last time, and despite clear instruction managed to get my Hiker Pro completely mudded up. His original plan was to jam a five pound cheap bag in a 20 liter day pack for four days and dangle all the rest on the outside of his pack.

The trend is looking like this - wanting to backpack, refusing to research anything, refusing to accept that it is the wrong pack, the wrong season, the wrong weather.... On another forum a fellow posted not once but twice looking for advice on doing the High Sierra Trail next month. Many explained why he should not attempt it solo with just a pack and a 20 degree bag, some told him to go right ahead and have an adventure, and somewhere inside me the cringing began....

I just got an email today from someone too lazy to use google or the calendar of past hikes on the hiking group to look up some easy hikes for himself. On an easy one night trip I posted for April, someone said she would be waiting for more details of what to bring - I posted a link to a gear list.

I am now to the point where I am answering with "if you have to ask, you aren't ready - go to an REI class and get back to me."

I used to put out a backpacking trip on our group calendar and get two people, one of which didn't show up. Now I have trips with waiting lists. Except they are all expecting to be spoon fed how to backpack.

I have a lot of experienced backpacker friends.... We're all getting tired of this.

On the one hand, I think it's fun to nurture newbies....

On the other..... Wtf is up with all the drama noobs who don't get it? Why do they compliment and thank me for help while refusing to listen to why I think the Oholone is the wrong thing for them - 30 miles in three days is not going to do anything but hurt you, with your "bombproof" tent (aka security blanket) and 30 lbs of nonessentials.

I have a love-hate relationship with the internet and the hiking group at this point. I am telling the masochistic noob he can't come in march. And the new order will be pre-emptively screening the new backpackers for signs of mental issues.

At some point, posters on forums who don't want to accept your cautionary advice start to frustrate - perhaps we need to say no. Or nothing. Civil attorneys of my acquaintance have made the point to me that telling others what to do carries a certain level of responsibility.... Perhaps even liability.

I guess to get around the last part, is to say in my opinion. An opinion doesn't make it true nor an absolute statement. I'm no attorney.

Yeah, that's not so much what people will hear. I've learned the hard way that suggestions are usually taken as gospel. I can "suggest" all I like. They'll hear something else.

We give a lot of advice on the forum. Nothing is really anonymous and one of these times, it may come back to bite someone.

People are super terrific at ignoring things that don't validate their plan. That's all I'm really getting at - there is this growing trend of non hikers, non backpackers and non athletes imagining that it will be cool and having the judgment of a two year old where backpacking is concerned. It's showing up in nearly every forum, and all over the place in the hiking groups I belong to.

The percentage of the population that has grown up in cities with little or no contact with the backcountry is extremely high and getting higher. Backpacking is just complicated enough that it helps immensely to have some background in camping, hiking or similar outdoor activities before you begin, or else you should work your way into it gradually, starting with the most basic rudiments.

If experienced backpackers stopped mentoring novices, the attrition rate among newbies would be much higher than it already is. That's part of what this forum does, because we love backpacking and want others to enjoy it too. But it is a good idea always to ask newbies on this forum what their experience level is before giving any advice.

Add to that the generation of the entitled and you have a perfect storm. Many young adults, and I use that term loosely, have been coddled and parented with the "I'm my kids friend more than I'm my kids parent" style of up bringing. They learn nothing that way and rarely understand the value of experience nor give those with it there due respect. IMO this is failure of parenting but none the less that is exactly what you are dealing with. And it isn't getting any better.

I'm 100% for planting the seeds to grow the hobbies I'm involved with. For example I have trained plenty of folks in competitive HP rifle but most of these people because of the investments in equipment were more my age or at least 30ish. Still I was pretty selective as to who I would lend my time to especially because we were dealing with firearms. I took some time evaluating folks that I would offer some training to. I looked for folks that were eager to learn, understood the commitment and most important could follow instruction ie. "LISTEN".

I don't envy your position and I don't want to sound like a bad guy but I would sooner wait for someone who really wanted the help and who would flourish with it then spend it on someone who would waste it. Time is a finite quantity here and I believe in spending it wisely.

As for helping folks over the net I do that more for myself as it makes me feel good. I have no control nor do I care if folks actually take my advise. I take It for granted that they truly need the help or another point of view and I'm willing to give it. On the sailing site I am a part of we have a fantastic group of folks that will go above and beyond to help others. Very much like here there are NO egos, just a wealth of knowledge for newbies to have for the asking. If they are not polite with there online attitudes I will pass over their posts. Remember though sites like these are more the exception and should be cherished by the experienced and newbies alike.

Good luck with your newbie issues, I wish you luck finding folks that will appreciate your valuable time and efforts.

jimmyb

Well, for sure every single one of them want the help. But they don't want the kind of help that makes them change their minds, or do any actual thinking or work.

It's like the eternal question of what pack should I get? They don't like "it depends." It really does, but they don't care... there should be a single answer that they can just be told, and then they'll get it and be done with it.

You can't tell who's going to waste it until they show up with a 70 lb pack complete with bear spray and a chair.

My pet peeve are those who are not willing to do their homework. Questions like, "I have 4 days and want to backpack in the west". Or "I am doing the JMT and want a trip plan". Planning the trip is a critical phase in orienting yourself to the terrain you will travel. You really need to stare at the maps, imagine, calculate miles, calculate elevation gains, figure out water sources. Everyone wants a formula or trip plan already done for them, from someone on the internet.

Since I am a parent and grandparent I have seen the changes in child rearing over the years. I think we really coddle our kids nowadays and do too much for them. Plus they are taught that anything is OK, 70% correct is fine, everyone gets a prize. I suspect that a lot of what you are experiencing is the result of that.

It is also a shame that the usual groups that taught outdoor skills are dwindling. And the young people do not want to submit to a group. Too much me-ism. And the legal liability has pretty much shot a hole in many groups' willingness to teach. I started climbing when I was 16 years old and took "mountain school" from the Spokane Mountaineers, and was under the wings of many mentors for all my younger years. I wish everyone could have that experience.

And then there is the glorification of stupidity that reality TV has brought to us. PS - I gave up TV 40 years ago and never watch it. When I visit my kids and see the reality TV they are watching it makes me cringe.

I think that we sometimes are too eager to answer every stupid question posted on forums, because, we really want to show how experienced we are. And nobody wants to be a nay-sayer. I think there are ways to still encourage newbies to try backpacking without approving of their inadequate ideas and plans. I agree many times we need to respectfully say "no" but not discourage them from their enthusiasm.

I suspect some stupid posts are people who just want to see how and if anybody responds. I rather not give them much of my time. They are just playing with us.

Another problem I have had is the disrespect people have for Leave No Trace. I snatched plastic out of a fire not once but twice when someone persistently threw it in! When I recently talked to a small group of lady hikers about safety and wilderness etiquette, the grimaces when I talked about packing everything out led me to continue to paint the picture of all the creatures that dig up their "waste" and spread it around. It's posted on my group that we practice LNT and no one reads that any more than they do the descriptions.

The local Sierra Club has shifted to activism - I don't think they even have a trip leader any more. They gave an award to me last year in absence of their own trip leader. I find myself wishing they were still doing what they used to do. REI doesn't seem to have enough classes going on. I tried navigation classes through the adult school without success - no one signed up - and the backpacking class would start out with 10 and dwindle to the point that three or four people went on the trip... the actual outing was most of the education, the classes were the prep work.

.

Yup, nothing pees me off more than this in the woods, NOTHING! I have picked up so much garbage in my day. I once literally filled my kayak with beer cans from the edge of a local lake and people looked at me like...why bother. I will pick apart fire rings in restricted areas, disperse obvious non trail marking rock cairns. Last year I returned to the lake about 2 ton of stone some dumb *ss made a "fort" out of. I have to return this year and finish the job. People don't have any respect for others who want to witness the land as it is UNTOUCHED by some idiot trying to make his mark. Oh and if I ever catch someone carving in a tree I will probably end up in jail.

Sorry for the rant.

jimmyb

This is an interesting subject, and I feel for you Lori.

I'd say no too. I'd temper it by saying once they get a few more trips under their belt they might be ready for one like you're planning, but if you don't feel they're ready, don't take them, and I'd tell them that if they pushed it.

Dreams and enthusiasm are no substitute for experience and skill despite what advertisers say, and it sounds like that's what you're dealing with. Ten miles a day on rough, steep, mountain trails while lugging a pack is hard. That's no trip for a noob and you'll end up getting blamed for whatever discomforts them.

I think you might be better off leading only short, easy, "Get to know your gear and learn some skills" kind of trips. One or two nighters at most and let those who want to go further and stay longer after that plan their own trips.

Keep the longer, more experienced needed, trips for you and your friends so you can enjoy them.

If you make some friends that start out as noobs in your classes and work their own way up to that level that would be great, but if they really just want you to babysit them on these trips so they can go back to their friends with bragging rights you should be getting guide pay for that.

If they don't know they're not ready for a 30 mile 3-day trip I wouldn't want to be with them anywhere past the 5 mile mark, and I really wouldn't want to be near them on day 2 or 3. That's the point where they'll be thinking to themselves "If I hurt myself now they'll get a helicopter to fly me out"....

When I started mountain biking I was riding alone every day just trying enjoy myself. I met group of guys at the parking lot that was riding at same time as I would be there, and they turned me into a mountain biking trail jedi!

Anyway, some guys from that group is what started getting me into backpacking, and I got my gear advice (and acquisition) mostly from here. Those two guys from biking group taught me how to use them and also shared their experiences with the Smokies. I was really fortunate enough to have their hands on guidance. I'm 24 years old and I'm still learning new things every time I go out or read from one of you guys. Such as minimizing my risks and being comfortable with what I got as well as your own perspective in regard to gears you uses. The trip is what it's all about, but way we share our experience with things is just as good sometimes. If that make sense?

I feel good about my safety in this area, but should I venture west is where I'd get nervous without someone else experience due to the elevation and the fact it another ball game compare to what we got here in the east. I'll climb that mountain when the time comes.

That's what I've been trying to do. Unfortunately, people are getting really good at looking like one thing and being another. I had talked to the fellow a number of times before about preparing, but once on the trip with other men around, he stopped listening.

Of course, that means he embarrasses himself by being the only backpacker ever to light up a stove quite that way.

If only it were the only time it's happened - it's been made very plain repeatedly that this is a social group, and yet I have had to say it just that way - I am not guiding you today. You don't get me to do that unless you are paying me. People have gotten angry because some of the other organizers can't tell them what a flower is, or how to do something.

I have in the past year banned three people from the group - one of them insisted, repeatedly, that he was going to take a second group of folks on a very overbooked hike with a waiting list on the same hike on the same day. Another demanded that he be allowed to bring his dog on another hike - it was clearly posted no dogs, he informed the organizer he was bringing his anyway. Then there was a campout I had planned on the coast where a lady repeatedly asked questions, and when other campers refused to respond to them she got very angry - so I started answering her questions, and then she became angry when she was unable to rewrite the trip the way she wanted it. Turning a camping and hiking trip into a shopping trip is not allowed. I had to ban her too. Who wants to spend three days with someone like that?

This forum hasn't had so many people as other forums doing the online equivalent lately. But I have been among those on a couple of others trying to explain the realities of why March is a bad idea for someone who clearly doesn't understand what he's getting into in the high elevations. On one hand, I'd like to think these folks will get frustrated and turn back when confronted with an icy or snow covered trail. On the other, I've witnessed some really spectacular yet determined failures to backpack.

Sigh.

I think there are at least two different issues here. One of them is our "expert" frustration with newbies who either won't take our advice or won't ask for it even though they need it. I have the same issue in another part of my life--I teach wine classes. It's amazing how many people want to know about wine, but don't actually want to do the work to learn the topic. And wine is, in my opinion, far more complicated than backpacking!

But in that case I am a paid teacher. In twenty years I have expelled only one student, although I have reprimanded many. And I am getting paid for it. My job is to try and reach each student and turn on the light. Having said that....

Everyone learns in different ways and at different speeds. If you envision yourself as educating a group, you simply have to get used to the idea that some people are going to fight you every step of the way--because that's the way they learn. The learn by arguing, and then being proven wrong. Working with them is part of being a teacher. And it's usually not the fun part!

But that brings us to the second topic. Because if you are a volunteer leader of a hiking group, there is a great deal of ambiguity about your role. Are you the teacher, or simply the facilitator? Are you the leader, or simply one of the group who has organizational skills? Or just a "senior" member of the team?

My suggestion is that most of the problems you are encountering could be mitigated by having a much more extensive pre-hike orientation/conditions statement. I know you are trying to help people get involved with backpacking...but I also know that when you are dealing with the public, setting expectations is a key part of fulfilling promises.

So before you ever sign someone up, make sure that they understand your philosophy about hiking, your role on the hike, and their expectations for participation. Make it clear that these are the conditions...and you will understand if they choose note to participate because of them--just as you hope they will understand if you ban them for not accepting the conditions.

And know that you will still get a few whackos along. We're people. It's what we do!

you think that all of this is not explained very clearly 1,000,000 times over what my role is - i have no corner of the website where it is not in plain English.

i am not complaining about a bunch of people with different ways of leArning. i am talking about a disturbing trend of people who expect things that are nowhere on the menu at all, and do not take any form of correction. the notion that the rules or the weather have nothing to do with them is nothing short of delusional. they understand my philosophy just fine. it just has nothing to do with them. That''s the way they act - they don't argue, just go their way and don't bring the bear can anyway. Then you're stuck camping next to someone just asking for trouble, and my name's on the group permit so it's my problem.

There are many members of the group who find it just as baffling as I do, who understand exactly what I am about and the nature of the group. These people are not just showing up in our group, but everywhere. You can find them on the forums planning ridiculous trips, not caring whether they can even do the trip physically or what the conditions are. The upswing of willful cluelessness leads to trips that no one in the group enjoys. This is a recent thing - previous years, my group has gone pretty well with an occasional square peg who ends up doing okay, suffering a little for his choice and not going backpacking again. Not only have some of the recent newbies come back for more, they expect to go on harder trips and suffer more.

I say "do not throw plastic in the fire." They throw it in. I pick it out. They pick it up and toss it back in! There is no reason for this behavior, but there it is. You tell the person it is winter, and you will be postholing in bad snow for miles, better to wait. They ask about shuttle options! I have always known rational people are in short supply. It's almost an epidemic, apparently - this wave of folks who can't understand we are not just merely disagreeing with them, we have actual reasons for trying to dissuade them from risking their lives or ruining the group experience with their suffering.

It's not just me. Meetup groups fail around me all the time. Organizers just aren't equipped to handle the influx of strange and rude. I guess it's a good thing I am a therapist. But it doesn't help me with the people who appear to be communicating well in plain English then just willfully do whatever they please. We had a lady who would join a day hike and announce she would meet the group at some spot or another, rather than actually coming to the trailhead and hiking with the group. She got so frustrated that nothing went her way - why do people not show up at that spot when she was there???? - that she fixed the problem by leaving the group.

I've had the same issue with an experienced backpacker who came along - he did in fact have it all together and ultralight to boot - however, when we failed to do the trip he had in his head, which clearly differed from the one I described very well and adhered to, he took off on his own up the trail. Well, fine. See you never. However - I was not concerned for him the way I am for the determined noobs who crash, fail, and continue to crash.

I do have the sense to step away from the problem and not own it. It's not my problem that they are determined to be dense. The drama and the pressure from other members who don't understand why I don't want that friendly, wonderful person along is more my issue from a practical perspective.

These type of people you are talking of- I would just black-list them from further trips. I think this is the problem with internet "meet-up" groups. When you are within an organized group (Sierra Club, CMC, etc) there is a weeding-out process so this type of person does not even become a member.

Just a suggestion, but I would make a priority list. What attitudes or actions are simply not acceptable, due to safety. Some may not agree, but I see safety as Number 1. There are not "second chances" for severe safety violations.

Environmental behavior has to be learned, and for the most part, I more try repeated teaching, and eventually most come around. If they are still environmental slobs after half a year, they are off my list.

I believe in strong leadership. And those who do not want to follow are also off my list. I think accepting leadership and being a good follower is paramount for newbie's safety. On the other hand, as they learn some skills, they should be allowed periods to practice leadership themselves.

But I feel getting in arguments about backpacking "style" is counterproductive. There are many styles that I do not like but that does not make them "wrong". I just make it clear that my trip is my style. They are free to find someone else's trip that fits their style. If they want to bring their boom-box, then they simply need to find someone else to go with. If they do go with me, I make a real effort to show them that they can have a very fulfilling experience without the boom box.

Group dynamics are complicated. When I was teaching at NOLS, we spent almost a month with each group to teach group dynamics - and it took that long before it sank in! After the first two days, we would make a "back-out" offer - leave at this time, get all your money back, plus a free plane ticket home, if you do not want to get with the program. But, if you stay, it is a contract between student and instructors, and not participating is NOT an option. We rarely had anyone leave and after a lot of hard work, almost everyone was onboard with the concept of "expedition behavior" by mid-course. Unfortunately, with a 2 day trip and new people each trip you do not have the chance to mold group cohesion.

If they simply want someone to guide them, then they should hire a commercial guide. If they do not want to participate in a group, why in the world do they join a group hike?

Expecting irrational people to be predictable - I used to do that.

Meetup groups are actually much simpler if the organizer has the fortitude to simply throw people out. Not many do. I have been tossing out the obvious loons but it isn't obvious who is a loon or an unsafe person right away. Social groups don't really need any reason to not want to socialize with someone... but it helps with group cohesion to have a reason. If you throw them out without an obvious reason, the rest of the group starts to think you are merely having temper tantrums or are unbalanced somehow.

Sheeple make up the majority of these groups - don't want to do the research themselves. The disturbing thing is the non Sheeple, non rational ones who are going to get themselves or some SAR volunteer hurt.

You can see this every weekend from early Spring until the water stops flowing on the Buffalo River NP. People come from all around to canoe or kayak and they bring the craziest expectations with them.

I could go on with stories and examples, but the short of it is that for several years every time I went there I ended up spending my time rescuing people from themselves and/or doling out supplies to people who refused to carry them because "I won't need it". Not because they were too expensive, or because they had no clue, but because they were certain they knew what they were doing even though they've never done it.

Worse yet, most of those people don't believe you're actually doing them a favor, they believe it's your responsibility to provide for and protect them. I've seen this behavior from poor hillbilly meth head trash to high paid Lexus driving executives.

Locals here, those who live in the rural Ozarks, do have outdoor skills. Kids still grow up learning them and practicing them. It's mostly city folks who get themselves into trouble here and feel entitled to whatever you have to relieve their discomfort.

When I lived in the city and the rurals would tell me that at first I thought they were being condescending. I soon realized they were practicing a sort of self defense that was a result of experience.

The more I read your posts and the problem you are having with the general public the more I think of the make up of the general public. We are whole nation now where the GP is made up of reality show watchers, video game players, a great deal of substance abusers and self centered folks looking for something for nothing in a really bad instantly gratifying way. That's the GP now. Extremely sad but look at the culture that has produced this fodder. Could you have imagined a world 30yrs ago where people would be socially and emotionally dependent on a freekin' telephone. That's some serious crippling of independent thinking alone.

I see you are a therapist. I'm a little surprised any of what you are encountering shocks you. These are the kind of folks that have me pulling my hair out on a daily basis. That's why I try to get as far as I can from them and hiking into the woods is "sometimes" a solution.

You should try boating someday and see the rude, obnoxious "Im the only one on the planet" types out there.

Simply put you are dealing with what was once a minority becoming the vast majority. Sadly IMO you will have no way of avoiding it other than walking away. And you might want to give it a try for a season and see if your quality of life improves.

jimmyb

My first real experience was with cattle ranchers near Porterville. I got invited to go camp in the Sequoias with them 3 Summers in a row. They took the time to teach me so much. A lot of times they'd start by asking me what I knew:

"You know how to saddle a horse."

"No."

"Get over here and learn."

I loved that. I ate that up. I'd been wanting that for years and I wasn't about to miss a chance to learn something from those folks. I was amazed by them. We rode over 20 miles in the Sequoia NF the first day on my first trip there and they knew exactly where they were the entire time. I was impressed with that. I really wanted to know how they did that.

I learned an incredibly amount just by listening to them. Their experience was vast and I had none. By the end of my last trip with them I had knowledge that would take me years to put into practice. Things they said I should know would become relevant years later and because I listened I had a clue.

I put what they taught me to work, but it was years before I really figured things out, before I felt comfortable, and even then I wouldn't say I was "experienced".

I still can't say that. Not when I compare myself to those guys. I could never do what I do without having learned from them. No way.

There are still a lot of folks here in the Ozarks that live for the outdoors, and kids still grow up learning how to be outside, and wanting to be out.

My daughter was born in Los Angeles. We left LA when she was 3-1/2. We moved here when she was 8. She's 28 now, here's a couple photos of her and her boyfriend. This one was taken last week:



And this was taken a few weeks ago:



I'm pretty convinced photos like these would have never been taken had we stayed in LA.

Here's one of their neighbors taken last week too. It's the norm here...



Far different from where and how I grew up...

Re the changes in child rearing--my youngest son has discovered that he's been coddling his kids too much and doing things himself because it's easier and faster than getting the kids to help. With his back injury, he needed lots of help last weekend and the kids tended to ignore him, figuring he'd go ahead and do the job himself. Well, that didn't happen this last weekend, and Dad was cranky from pain into the bargain! I hope he has learned something!

I will give advice when asked, but I definitely won't offer it unasked, mostly because information not asked for isn't wanted. I always smile and say "Hi" when meeting someone on the trail, and if they act friendly I may comment on the lovely day (if the weather is good) or the beautiful view. Admittedly, sometimes I have to clench my teeth really hard to avoid mentioning an enormous heavy pack or, at the opposite extreme, the complete lack of pack, wraps, water or other "essentials."

I do believe that a large part of the function of this forum is to help beginners. Sometimes I get carried away with purple prose, but many times all I do is refer people to the articles on the home page of this site, which seems to be overlooked by most.

Why it should shock me? These aren't mentally ill people. There have been a few of those - I know what they look like and sometimes spot them right away.

This is happening in a group of people that have been largely responsible, practical minded and rational. Hikers have tended to be good folks - which is why I roll my eyes when one of the ladies expresses fear that someone in the wilderness will bother them.

What's shocking is the sudden upswing in interest in hiking in these people, who typically show little interest in work of any kind.

I think that the firings will just have to continue. It's too bad that entitlement and ridiculous expectations are the new normal.

This is exactly what I do. I'll acknowledge people on the trail, however, I won't mention anything about gears, the trail, etc., unless asked.

Edit: why do I sense deja vu?

The big difference is that the hiking group is intended to be a place to meet other hikers and go hiking with them.

I have had to carry gear for others to get someone out of a place they got themselves to - and then had their knee fail.

The ability to judge for yourself what you need is poor at best. You don't leave someone to founder - one of the top reasons for searches is a foundering group member either insists on going back alone, or gets separated and then the group ends up reporting them missing.

If no one suggests to the person at the start that they have too much stuff for a single night, guess who either 1) hikes sloooooooowly back with the person and is delayed and misses sleep, work or both or 2) carries cr@p someone else imagined they needed.

Most of us screen backpackers who join us for the first time, these days. But people LIE. It's not frequent but it can happen.

I agreeeeeeeeeeeddd. I've only done one hiking group. It was a hiking club and I stumbled onto it on facebook (back when I had a facebook), he was doing a half-thru hike of the Smokies. He outlined all the details. All 6 of us did it smoothly with ZERO issues. I can imagine how you feel, Lori, I just don't live it.

Edit: I take that back, I did two groups. The first one was wayyyy back in college when I went to Grayson Highlands with people from ETSU. 4 strangers I never met that went to school with me. All 5 of us had been backpacking before, although.

I am chuckling a little bit here, thinking of all the times that we have encouraged a newbie on these boards to join a meet-up hiking group....

Maybe we are to blame for Lori's string of bad experiences?

I have to admit, one of the reasons that I am very careful about the people I hike with is because hiking is sacred to me--and I am sure I couldn't do what Lori does.

Someone has to be the scapegoat.

In all honesty, I don't mind taking newbies hiking. I'm just a shy around new people, thus, I be a boring person hike with unless we knew each other.

Lori,

Running a meet-up group is often a thankless job filled with frustration. I was in the same position with a motorcycle group and finally gave up. You'd think that when we went out for a ride with temperatures near zero, people would at least wear gloves and a heavy jacket.

My riding partner and I finally turned the leadership over to another rider and we pursued our own riding interests.

When I lead trips for the CMC (California Mountaineering Club) I was pretty much a hard-a**. I would lift everyone's pack, and simply take unneeded extra stuff out of their packs. Because, once you form a "team", each person is responsible for the other - and that means if someone poops out the group carries their gear. The expedition is only as strong as its weakest link.

I quit leading trips because I became burned out and on the last trip there was a huge breach of safety due to participants not following the agreed upon procedure. And this was on a technical climb so someone could easily have been killed. Maybe you should just take a break for a while. After all you have done, nobody would think less of you.

The real problem is word of mouth. 90% of the group had never heard of meetup before, but a friend in the group encouraged them to join.

People have horrible taste in friends.

In any case, it's not just in my group - there is a reason the poor ranger in Evolution was soooooo exasperated when he explained to us (for probably the 1,000 time that day) that going in the alpine when a storm was due in any minute was foolhardy. I think we made his day when we told him if it was still storming we'd go back instead of forward.

We watched at least a dozen JMT hikers in shorts and tank tops hiking through the driving rain toward the basin at dusk. Clearly lightning or hypothermia is nothing compared to the horrors of being late to Whitney.

In some circles, hiking is kind of chic. So, people gravitate towards hiking on the advice of a friend and though they see its merits, aren't about to put effort and thought into it. I'm the same way with Smart Phones . I can see their merits , but I'm not going to go out of my way to learn or use them. If someone is hiking with that type of attitude and someone in the group told them they couldn't burn a tiny little piece of garbage and had to bag their crap and put it in their pack, I can easily envision a response: Who the he.. is this Eco- Nazi? LNT to me, requires an investment in an aesthetic- you have to have an appreciation for what you're preserving and wish to see it maintained in perpetuity. Hiking once in awhile as something "cool" to do,or just for exercize, usually won't give you that much of a buy in. Thanks to the internet and endless instructional videos, it appears almost anything can be learned and accomplished. I DO say something on the trail when I see people heading towards SAR incidents. Amazingly I've had people thank me for it. Yeah that video on the cat can stove was great until you burned the crap out of yourself when you couldn't see the flame, and on top of that you torched your tent because you cooked in its vestibule and knocked it over! It also wasn't in the video how to erect your tent in the dark with 60 mph winds, because you WAY overestimated your ability to get over the pass and down again.... I survived a lot of stupid mistakes and misadventures long before the internet, now it seems arrogance and ignorance has become exponentially worse. Fortunately, I ran into a few people like lori, and unlike some of her group, put my learning cap on and shut my mouth so they could teach me what I needed to know about what I was passionate about.
In a nutshell, if someone is enthusiastic and listens when you offer solid advice, they're worth the effort in my book.

That's really good advice to consider. When it's no longer fun or interesting it may be time to move on, but when it becomes a source of frustration you really have to think about why you're doing it.

I think a lot of us are here in part to give something back. There has to be some balance in that and when you do that like you do (Lori), with taking groups out, that's the real heavy lifting part of the endeavor.

There's a point when you can (and should) pass that kind heavy lifting on to someone else and be satisfied you've done more than your share.

We all need something we do just for ourselves. Backpacking and hiking is something I do for pure fun. I backpack for me.

So I agree with W_D. Take a break from the groups. Make it fun for you again, and don't feel a lick of guilt about that either. You can be proud of what you've given back. It's a lot more than most of us will be able to.

I guess it's not really clear - I'm not burned out. Frustrated with the sudden upswing of people who cannot possibly be predictable as problems, yes.

I am quite burnt out with my job. On the verge of walking out without having another in place, in fact - if you think this issue with hikers is even half so stressful as the job has been for me, boy, don't get me started.

The fact that I am seeing this sort of thing everywhere - not just the hiking group, but at work, online, and in the schools my job sends me into - says a lot about the direction we are headed as a society. At which point going somewhere into the mountains and setting up a goat farm sounds like a viable alternative to all of it.

Amen! Done that more times than I can remember. However I don't recommend it. Yes it is the MOST liberating feeling in the world....for about 5 min. and then you get a feeling in your gut about what will come next.

I just wanted to show some support for you as I am so jaded by this ever progressive world that I am no one to give advise. At least for this "old school" boy things are progressing way to fast and it seems my morals and ethics are outdated. I guess I am entering into the passing generation and that may be why I too see this kind of thing everywhere.

So good luck however you decide to handle it and if you go the route of the Goat farm don't forget to let us know how it works out. Heck I shoulda thought of doing something like that years ago.

jimmyb

It is.

Just say go?

Is your group a Meet-up group? I'd worry about the ability to pre-screen well there. I use to lead a backpacking trips for the local Sierra Club, and I think one of a leader's responsibilities is definitely to not let people attend if they are not properly prepared, so I'm with you on not letting the guy attend. Of course, I found that kind of hard to do myself because I'm a nice guy and I don't like rejecting people. Still, it's for their own good and the good of everyone else on the trip.
I never had problems with people who were as lame and stubborn as that guy sounds, but once, on a beginners backpack I was leading, I was looking at this woman with her pack on, thinking "hmmm, what's wrong with this picture?", when I realized she had her backpack on upside down. I also had a participant once who I soon realized was truly, seriously mentally ill, as well as profoundly annoying. Not good

interesting that you are finding this to be a trend. Is it youngsters who were just raised to think that anything they do will be easy for them because they are Truly Great? (after all, ma and pa always told them so)

As a qualifier to my experience, I've been assistant organizer on a few meetup groups for easy day hikes but am not in the hiker-leader league of most of you.

My biggest problem was people seldom showed up. I'm reading the experiences on this thread and thinking, "Wow, how did they get so many people to show up?"

When I decided to start a section-day-hike of the Florida National Scenic Trail I posted my intentions along with required abilities (mainly the ability to walk 10 miles without undo discomfort, a few other things) to see if I could get any hike partners. Two people responded. Neither had ever walked more than 3 miles in their lives and wanted to sign up for a 12 mile excursion. I refused them both as even if they did show up (doubtful) I was concerned for their physical well being.

I really had to smile when skimming through the tread. It really raises a good debate. Do some people really want to learn before an accident happen? Or is it easier to rely on the SAR to bale them out?

I think that many people think that it is just a matter of minutes from the accident until they are lifted away in a helicopter. Too many tv shows have shown this. Well tough luck. Also some suppliers of equipment contribute by giving false promises. Last year we had a snow avalance tragedy where just one in a company of seven survived. They all had top gear, including airbags that was said to give 98% survival rate in an avalance. One of them was found under over seven meters of hard snow!

I do not arrange group tours, but I try to help people from middle of Europe with facts about hiking in Norway. And every spring there are a lot of hikers that insist on hiking as early as april. They seem to be unable to comprehend that we go skiing in the mountains until mid may! Even june is questionable most places, lots of snow and swollen rivers.

It is not new that young people think they are immortal and knowitall. What is new is their lack of understanding of the forces of the nature.

And speaking as someone who worked retail in an outdoor store 30 years ago, I'd not blame your phenomenon of entitled idiots that won't listen on young whippersnappers or spoiled kids. Such people have always existed in droves, and are fundamentally lazy. The internet just makes it easier for them to find people like us, where before they would have had to get off the couch, and go somewhere to do so which put a filter on their numbers right away. Now they watch an episode of Bear Grylls, type two search terms into Google during a commercial, and they are here asking us questions while Bear builds a platform to sleep on to avoid bears, or walks around naked trying to hit trout...

If I'm gonna "blame" anyone I'll blame the media and their thirst for money. Same people I blame for an ignorant and distracted by sensationalism electorate

Lori,

Maybe move up here? I'm not saying we don't have idiots (oh my goodness do we ever), however we still have a "you are on your own" thing going. I don't think this will last too much longer, but at the very least people who live in the state don't expect to be rescued while hiking. (I'm not counting Denali National Park.) We have some great hiking too!

Hi, Lori. I'd second the advice about taking a break from leading, if it's really getting to you. Of course, simply saying "no" a lot more frequently has the same effect, if you're not really wanting to give it up completely.

I hit the same burnout point a few years ago; I took a year or so away from it, and then eased back in. I found two local folks (an outfitter store, and an independent guide) who run trips (mostly beginner, but a few intermediate) for a fee. I end up paying to go along (though they occasionally give me a discount), and I function as an unofficial "assistant leader." They make all the decisions and deal with all the problems, and I get to do the stuff I like: work with the folks who do want to learn. Occasionally, I'm able to help turn a borderline idiot around, but if I don't want to deal with them, I don't have to.

If you do want a vacation, take one. If you're like me, you started doing this for fun, not as a job; when it quits being fun, I'll stop. Luckily, I'm nowhere near that point yet.

Finally, remember what Kevin Costner said in "The Guardian": "you swim as hard as you can, for as long as you can, and save as many as you can; the ocean takes the rest."

NOPE, still not burned out.

I have never hesitated to quit working anywhere that didn't appreciate me, or if I just felt like moving on. I have always held that I work for me.

After living in cities for about 22 years I finally decided to move to the mountains, and I did.

It took me a few years to get here, there were some unexpected sidetracks along the way, but all my work from that point on was towards that goal.

Most everyone told me I was making a huge mistake. That I'd be back. That'd I'd miss the city and be bored to death. That I'd never find work or earn enough to live on.

But I kept thinking, I've been to places I'd like to live, and people live there, and they make a living, and they seem happy enough to me. That made more sense to me, so I ignored what most everyone told me.

I'm not giving you advice or encouraging you to quit your job, but I'll tell you the same thing my father used to tell me, which was handed down by his father, and so on:

"The only thing that's stopping you is the fear in your heart and the lead in your ass."

Making a big change is never easy but I've always considered those words when I've thought about things like quitting a job or moving someplace else. They have empowered me because they shift any blame onto me and I know that's truly where it belongs.

As a result I've quit quite a few jobs and I've moved quite a few times. Life has gotten better each time. It's been good here for a long time.

Anyway, you lose the fear after a bit and then you know that's all there ever was stopping you. At that point quitting a sucky job and moving some place you like is pretty easy.

That's great - I was misinterpreting your posts, I guess. HEY, were you just venting, like we all have to do occasionally?

I'm glad you're not burned out. But, seriously, every once in a while, take a trip that's just for you (whether you go alone or with people you really want to be with.) You deserve it.