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#172823 - 12/09/12 04:21 PM no knife ten essentials
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I see that a knife has been dropped on REI's updated ten essentials list. [[oops - I guess they do have a leatherman that they show]] This term has been so overused, and is so coveted and deeply enshrined in our folk lore that frankly a lot of people buy these items and either don't carry them, don't use them, or can't use them, but they still feel safe because they have this stuff even though it may do them no good. confused

I'm thinkin back to the last time I wrestled a grizzly barr with ma Bowie knife goodjob . Sure I wuz glad ta have it but the barr et me anyways... shocked

I one time sat on a high point on a mountain, knowing full well where I was, with a current local topo map and one of those Silva compasses in the plastic rectangle. I tried to triangulate my position and could not AND I KNEW WHERE I WAS!!!
And I might add that theoretically I do know how to navigate by map and compass but I find it too slow and ponderous of a method to use. (I carry a GPS)

Other questionable "essentials" include repair kit, sun protection, first aid kit, fire starter, and flashlight. It might be nice to have these things, like the whistle that has somehow been dropped, BUT are they essential? That is - are they required? All of this is assuming that the fertilizer hits the fan smirk and you want something [technology, medicine, etc] to make it better. This is ballanced against - how BAD does it have to be to create a "bad trip" crazy and what does all that stuff cost and weigh?

I think a sit pad is pretty important and though it is covered under "insulation" in some cases "insulation" means "coat".

Now bear bells doesn't seem be on the lists that I've seen, atleast not in a very long time. I think the best way to avoid bears is to not camp where everybody else does. And what about my trusty snake bite kit and axe???
Jim


Edited by Jimshaw (12/10/12 01:41 AM)
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#172827 - 12/09/12 05:51 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
It depends on where and when. Also on the level of experience. It's usually the inexperienced that head out with nothing at all (no pack, maybe a water bottle at most). If it rains, the temperature drops, they get lost (easy to do with no map), or anything else happens, they're toast.

When hiking in the forest, sun protection isn't necessary. Out in the open, it most definitely is, to prevent skin cancer and early-onset cataracts later in life. I had the early-onset, rapidly-developing cataracts, and one of my DILs had a big chunk of her upper lip removed due to skin cancer last spring, so I know whereof I speak.

We've had I don't know how many SAR calls here in the Gorge just this fall because people underestimated the early darkness or didn't think about setting a turnaround time and were stuck because they didn't take a light.

As for a knife, I use mine (Leatherman Micra) to cut things occasionally, and I use the pliers on it for when I have to adjust straps (because I don't have the strength in my fingertips to pull them through). The scissors, pliers and file get used more than the knife blade, but the blade would be nice if I someday actually manage to catch a fish laugh and want to gut it. Besides, if I need to use duct tape (repair or adhesive tape), I need something to cut it with.

I've never needed the first aid stuff for more than minor cuts, scrapes, the occasional sliver and blisters, but I take stuff for those, especially the dreaded infected hangnail.

Repair kit--safety pins, duct tape and a needle that will hold dental floss (the needle is also for removing slivers and puncturing blisters). Probably not needed for a day trip, but I've used all at one time or another when backpacking. I do not recommend duct tape as a patch for ripped pants, though; it peeled off and stuck to my skin instead. Ouch!

I do take a whistle; it beats yelling, especially when my grandkids are along. Each of them has a whistle with instructions not to use it for play until they get back home. They know about "Help Come Quick" (three blasts) and that two blasts from me means that dinner is ready!

The lists all say "extra clothing" but don't say that the outer layer needs to be waterproof, especially in this neck of the woods. You and I take that along anyway (along with an insulating garment and the sit pad), but you'd be surprised how many don't!

Definitely those "ten" essentials lists are for beginners. I'm sure you take most of that stuff in some form or other along anyway as part of your normal gear. I know I do! But most beginners I see (and I see a lot of them around here!) don't, and unlike us they don't have the skills to cope without it.


Edited by OregonMouse (12/09/12 05:55 PM)
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#172828 - 12/09/12 09:16 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Au contraire, I just checked the REI website and their video blurb on the ten essentials and it still includes a knife - specifically mentioned as a component of the repair kit. They illustrate one of the new Leatherman models with small pliers and a relatively modest blade. They are not pushing the Jim Bowie, Roman short sword, "survival" knife that is still peddled to the unknowing. I usually have some sort of a knife with me when I am out and about - I have used it too. Over the years, I have carried a Swiss Army Knife the most often and it has been perfectly adequate. I did switch to a Leatherman about five minutes after I first held one - the pliers are great for freeing up jammed locking carabiners.

I very much like the "ten essentials" concept, but you need to think about what you are carrying because you will often vary the components depending upon the circumstances - the Sonoran desert requires more water in your pack than does the Pacific Northwest. When I was working in Canyon de Chelly, I learned never, never ever to enter the canyon without carrying at least 60 feet of 9mm climbing rope, even if no climbing was on the adenda. In that terrain, it made good sense....

If more people had carried the essential ten, they would have had a much more pleasant excursion and maybe even survived.

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#172831 - 12/09/12 11:52 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: oldranger]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
The Mountaineers "invented" the ten essentials and the list is, as a result, PNW-centric. I believe it's as much intended to get folks to think before hitting the trail as to being an end-all, be-all list of things to carry, no matter what.

The "new" ten essentials

A couple got stuck in their Jeep in the Sierra snow a week ago and while she managed to walk out and survive, he did not make it. A bare minimum of planning (not to mention better decision-making) would have had them both surviving their experience. It saddens me that in addition to agonizing over approach and departure angles, a surprising number of OHV folks don't put the same energy into the possibility of getting stuck.

A baggie of essentials, be they eight or eighteen, tossed into the pack won't make a difference 99 of 100 trips. Which trip is the next one?
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#172837 - 12/10/12 01:40 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Rick_D]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I stand corrected on the knife issue then.

However I have found that most women campers tend to carry scissors, which are two crossed knives with a leverage advantage, and they cut much more precisely.

If we actually left behind everything that we do not use on each trip, we would not have first aid, pliers, warm coat, compass, map, or other emergency stuff because emergencies are rare. These are the things left out to get to ultralight that make UL more dangerous during an emergency, but easyer to carry when you don't need any emergency items. Sure many will argue that not carrying emergency items makes you safer because you will be lighter and therefore less apt to have an accident. I think someone did an awesome job of marketing to get people to want to believe that.

Jim
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#172838 - 12/10/12 03:14 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
OregonMouse Online   content
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Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Funny thing is that those "ten" "essentials" don't weigh that much! I generally carry all of them, in some form or other, when I'm backpacking. I don't ever go without the raincoat or the puffy jacket or the base layer; I've needed them too many times. Ditto warm hat and gloves. As already mentioned, I find my wind shirt indispensable.

About the only things I carry that I haven't used on several occasions are a couple of larger gauze pads and a couple of large non-stick bandages in my first aid kit. Maybe half an ounce altogether. My PLB, 5.4 ounces, has of course never been used, but that's a psychological weight saving that keeps friends and family off my back. Oh, yes, I haven't used the frying pan (4.2 oz.), since I haven't yet managed to catch a fish to cook in it. Do you suppose that if I left the frying pan at home, I might actually catch that elusive trout?
lol


Edited by OregonMouse (12/10/12 03:16 AM)
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#172849 - 12/10/12 10:08 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
Blue_Ridge_Ninja Offline
member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 98
Loc: North Georgia
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
Other questionable "essentials" include repair kit, sun protection, first aid kit, fire starter, and flashlight. It might be nice to have these things, like the whistle that has somehow been dropped, BUT are they essential? That is - are they required? All of this is assuming that the fertilizer hits the fan smirk and you want something [technology, medicine, etc] to make it better. This is ballanced against - how BAD does it have to be to create a "bad trip" crazy and what does all that stuff cost and weigh?

I wouldn't consider a firestarter, flashlight, or cutting tool (not neccessarily a knife) to be "questionable" at all. Those are all no-brainers IMO. The size/weight/cost of those three is neglegible. A small ferro rod costs a couple of bucks. A squeeze-type single LED light is tiny. A 2" blade is adequate for most any cutting task. My repair kit consists of the paracord bracelet on my wrist, and a couple of feet of duct tape wrapped around my trekking pole.

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#172850 - 12/10/12 10:11 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Blue_Ridge_Ninja]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
I never leave the house without a knife,ever!
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#172852 - 12/10/12 10:20 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Jim, you should hang out at some bushcrafting forums. Although there are people like me that like to mix the two completely different worlds of lightweight backpacking and bushcrafting, most don't. Bushcrafters generally try to go big on the "essentials" and small on everything else. Forget the stove, sleeping bag and tent. They bring a tarp, wool blanket and fire, then build a shelter for the night. They bring less food with the intent of foraging. Instead of a 1 pound frameless pack, they want a canvas frameless of the same volume, but 3 times the weight. They want a big knife, axe and saw for building that shelter and fire wood. Of course, they don't do big miles, mostly walk a few, and spend the rest of their time setting up camp and sitting in front of the fire carving. Or spending hours with a friction fire. I don't subscribe to a lot of the mentality, but I don't think they are wrong, just different. I do bring a big knife. For you guys it is big, for bushcrafters it is tiny, a mora. I use the heck out of the thing. I also use my scissors a lot.
To each their own, I guess.
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#172854 - 12/10/12 10:29 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
I always have a knife. A little SA Classic is always in my pocket. That little sucker has tweezers, toothpick, screwdriver, file, blade, all in a dinky package. It's amazing how many times I hear "does anyone have a knife"?
I also usually have fire, even though I've never smoked. A book of paper matches in my wallet will be used up by the end of the year.
I never carry sunscreen goo....hate the feel/smell of it. I tend to wear my sun protection instead.
I've never thought in terms of "essentials", ever. The trip dictates the need and I tend to prioritize stuff instead.
Shelter, warmth, food, hygiene, and a plan.
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#172856 - 12/10/12 11:30 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: rockchucker22]
balzaccom Online   content
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
Originally Posted By rockchucker22
I never leave the house without a knife,ever!


I'll bet you don't fly much....grin
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Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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#172858 - 12/10/12 12:09 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Rick_D]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
What is interesting about the classic list under Rick_D's post above is that food is listed in the 10 essential list, but not water. You can get a lot farther with water and no food than the reverse. It IS listed under the 10 essential systems however.

I can't imagine going backpacking without a real knife. I can make a lot of useful stuff using that knife. We learned how to make all sorts of things in my first Boy Scout Troupe, including how to make bearpaw style snowshoes using willow branches. And I have had to give up a pocket knife flying before. Forgot it was in my pocket!

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#172870 - 12/10/12 03:51 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: skcreidc]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I think that's the Western Washington influence at play. Hard to hike or climb anywhere there without water access. Took me a few years after landing in California to get over the expectation there'd be water squirting out of the hillside every hundred yards. "Carry water?!?" smile

I never don't have a knife on the trail--it's a guy thing--but to be honest nine trips out of ten I only use it prepping food.

Originally Posted By skcreidc
What is interesting about the classic list under Rick_D's post above is that food is listed in the 10 essential list, but not water. You can get a lot farther with water and no food than the reverse. It IS listed under the 10 essential systems however.

I can't imagine going backpacking without a real knife. I can make a lot of useful stuff using that knife. We learned how to make all sorts of things in my first Boy Scout Troupe, including how to make bearpaw style snowshoes using willow branches. And I have had to give up a pocket knife flying
before. Forgot it was in my pocket!


Cheers,
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--Rick

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#172876 - 12/10/12 05:41 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Rick_D]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
The winter campers who post on wintertrekking carry a pair of ice awls for self-rescue if you break through the ice-they go on a lanyard around your neck. A lot are handmade, but you can buy something like these-
http://icerescue.marsars.com/it030020.html
They would consider those an essential.
Here's a video on using them-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KDqEJlwclg


Edited by TomD (12/10/12 05:44 PM)
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#172881 - 12/10/12 06:24 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: TomD]
DTape Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
For me, and likely all other experienced outdoorspeople, the ten essential items for a given trip vary depending on the trip. That said, I think the myth of the ten essentials has morphed into almost categories instead of items. Food? Shelter? really? We need to list food and shelter on a list of ten essentials. By listing these things it makes the list worthless. Perhaps it always was. If I was to categorize a packing list, I would use my house as the categories: kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, closet, garage. In fact, that is how I arrange my gear list in my mind.
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#172883 - 12/10/12 07:11 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
That's a great post Jim!

I have a assortment of stuff that I bring that varies with the trip. Day hikes are when I whittle it down to little more than the essentials.

When I do a long day hike I'll bring a tarp. I have a visqueen one that's big enough to rig a shelter I can stay dry in, otherwise I'll bring an SOL emergency blanket nowadays.

Other than that I do bring quite a few other things I don't expect to use. I bring my FAK/Repair kit/Fire kit. It's all in one bag and I carry it with me almost all the time in a Jansport Daypack I have. I have a different day pack for hiking, so I toss it into it.

I also carry at least 2 LED lights of some kind, one is always a headlamp, others vary. I carry a compass, and usually my GPS and a map. I don't trust the GPS, and I don't really need a map, I can get close enough with a compass to find where I need to be.

I carry a small Rapala fillet knife, or a little "Cowboy Toothpick" pocket knife. Neither would kill a bear. You can clean a squirrel or a fish with them real good though.

I never had a store bought bear bell, but I have set up a stainless mug to clank on some biners or something before. I still shout a warning now and then. I'm pretty sure bears are only annoyed by all of that but since I don't actually see them often I'll keep doing it.

I carry my hiking stick on all my rambles. It's essential.

I'd say my day pack weighs between 8-16 pounds. On the heavy end I could spend a night or two out and be comfortable in most situations here. If I were backpacking I'd be closer to 28-32 for 2-3 nights.

I think anymore, everything I bring is near essential for me to be safe and self contained. That's really my goal.

Safe is an illusion of sorts, but so are the dangers, so it's an attempt at balancing them both. I mean, if I run across a bear that's hell bent on kicking my butt, well, I'm in trouble and like you said, no knife, and darn few guns are going to change the outcome. But the odds of that happening are so slim that I'm better off spending the gun money on lotto tickets. grin
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#172892 - 12/10/12 09:14 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: skcreidc]
Jimshaw Offline
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I think the number of real uses for a knife are limited unless you use it to cut up your food. You could use a knife for a million things, my point is that without the knife you simply camping? They are lousy for chopping wood, whittling is an un-wouldn't do 999,000 of them and not suffer. I mean what would you HAVE to do with a knife besides fight with it, while essential sport, few people use their knife for surgery, and I can eat my food with my hands and no knife. I never have to strip insulation from a awire for instance, while camping.

Furthermore, if I am actually going to attack the reasonableness of carrying a camping knife, then lets start with the multitool concept. Unless you are in the woods on a mechanised conveyance - what are you gonna use a bunch of tools on? They are a total waste of weight except on some expeditions where real time repairs might matter.

I think a fingernail clipper is about all the cutting device I really need.
Jim grin


Edited by Jimshaw (12/12/12 12:16 AM)
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#172897 - 12/10/12 10:56 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
balzaccom Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
Jim: I agree, with one caveat. I take a small fishing knife with me, but usually only use it to cut our salami and cheese for lunch. We don't really need to do that (we could just gnaw off a chunk) but we like the civilized effect.

And I have never understood what anyone fixes with a multitool. We take a sewing kit, which works a lot better on packs, tents, sleeping bags, and clothes...


Edited by balzaccom (12/10/12 10:57 PM)
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Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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#172898 - 12/10/12 11:49 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: balzaccom]
OregonMouse Online   content
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Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I don't know what I'd do without my Multitool (a tiny one at 1.9 oz.):
Pliers--grasp strap ends to pull through buckles (my fingers won't do it), use as pot lifter when cooking, some uses for fishing
Knife--cut things such as moleskin, fishing line, duct tape when needed as patches or adhesive tape, trim hangnails, cut thread if I have to sew, gut fish
Tiny screwdriver--tighten screws on my glasses, which I need to do every other day to avoid losing them.
Larger screwdriver--prying off lids of water bladders in dog's pack
File--file fingernails, which split if not filed daily

Without it, I couldn't adjust straps on my or dog's pack, couldn't remove pot from stove, couldn't cut tape, glasses would fall apart, couldn't get the lids off dog's water bladders, would have seriously split fingernails and even worse hangnails, etc. And I'd have to eat fish with the guts in sick


Edited by OregonMouse (12/10/12 11:54 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#172899 - 12/10/12 11:56 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Rick_D]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Coming at this from an Arizona perspective, the question is what else do you carry in addition to your water, which can easily be a gallon or more when it gets toasty. The essentials list ought to be adjusted to the environment....

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#172905 - 12/11/12 08:31 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
skcreidc Offline
member

Registered: 08/16/10
Posts: 1590
Loc: San Diego CA
I have to agree with you Jim, the number of real uses for a knife are limited. Sometimes I'll use it to help start a fire by making a fuzz stick, but in reality it's only used for gutting fish nowadays. So usually I only bring a light pocketknife. If I have done my planning properly and I make no major errors in judgment on my trek (and don't fish), the knife is dead weight. I have in the past brought three cutting tools with me on treks where I am traveling lighter than I do now and I got along quite comfortably with very little except food.

Still, I like to have the knife with me just in case. When Tica was young, I took her to the dog park for socialization. One time, 2 dogs playing somehow got wrapped up with the jaw of one getting caught under the round profile leather collar of a smaller dog. As it struggled to get free, the collar got wetter and the dog panicked. By the time we released what was happening (at first it looked like a dog fight) the leather collar was twisted multiple times. We tried to separate them, but could not figure it out. Then the smaller dog stopped struggling, passing out from lack of air. Holding the dogs in the air and using a borrowed knife, the only clear access I had the the collar was the inside of the larger dogs mouth; that is where I had to cut the collar with the knife. Somehow in the struggle, the collar had been twisted at least 4 times. The little beagle got mouth to nose and came around. Without the knife he would have died.

Unless I'm stripping down to the human equivalent of a flying gas can, I like bringing my knife grin . Even my larger knife doesn't weight much. And when you need it, it's there.

Flaking takes a certain amount of real skill on marginal rock. Unless you are next to some obsidian or nice chert, its harder than it looks. And then you have to avoid hurting yourself when using it even if it is a cobble with an edge for hacking. Very cool skill though. I once found points and scrapers in Montana made out of a fine grain basalt maybe 500 years old. I thought that was pretty impressive. goodjob

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#172908 - 12/11/12 09:29 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Quote:
I think the number of real uses for a knife are limited unless you use it to cut up your food. You could use a knife for a million things, my point is that without the knife you simply wouldn't do 999,000 of them and not suffer.


Welllll...maybe, but in the desert, I've used either a single edged razor blade, or my little Swiss Army Classic to tease out more than one dagger plant spine. Plus, I like a toothpick and a tweezer as a bonus. The weight of the little package is almost nil and you can do at least 996,000 of all that knife stuff with it. grin
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#172912 - 12/11/12 11:35 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Dryer]
balzaccom Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
To OM's point, we also take a nail clipper that has a nail file. I think I would argue it is more essential than the knife---since a toenail problem really can keep you from hiking. And we take a needle and thread in our sewing kit that can remove splinters...

Eyeglasses? that's an interesting one. So far I've never had a problem, but I can imagine! I guess that's where duct tape comes in! grin
_________________________
Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/

Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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#172931 - 12/11/12 04:33 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: balzaccom]
Dryer Offline

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Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
I can see toenail clippers. My little knife has scissors that work for that pretty well. Needles/tweezers don't remove cactus spines very well, but I do carry a little hotel sewing kit. Dental floss makes really strong thread if needed.
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#172934 - 12/11/12 06:02 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Dryer]
balzaccom Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/09
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Loc: Napa, CA
Indeed. I travel a ton, and I frequently replenish our first aid kit with one of those nice sewing kits. When my clients put me up at a Four Seasons, I got a really nice one! grin.
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#172936 - 12/11/12 06:53 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Dryer]
billstephenson Offline
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Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I bring one big heavy curved upholstery needle, one small sewing needle, a singer 99 bobbin spool full of heavy nylon thread, and a plastic thimble. I think I've probably used them maybe 2 or 3 times in the past 20 years. Glad I had them when I did though.

We have lots of chert here, and in most places you could find some that has a sharp enough edge that you could probably clean small game and fish. I've used it many times to scrape some tinder fuzz for starting a fire, and I've played around using it to cut rope and other stuff. It can be close to razor sharp, I know that first hand.

I tried tooling it a couple times, and I cut myself good enough once to stop trying until I took some time to learn about it, which I still haven't done. cry

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#172938 - 12/11/12 08:21 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: billstephenson]
oldranger Offline
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Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
One of the first things to learn is to protect your thigh, the traditional work platform for knappers, with a leather pad. It would also be a good idea to wear safety glasses. I understand Australian aborigines linked as they struck the rock, accomplishing the same end. It takes real skill to fashion a decent tool, but if you are content with a sharp edge, simply bash the rock and sort through the debris until you find a suitable blade. That was the extent of humankind's tool making abilities for quite a few millenia - I personally haven't gotten beyond that stage myself, which is why I usually carry a knife (just as I was typing this, my wife asked me to open a tube of spackling paste - can't be the man of the house without the right tools!)

Modern knappers can replicate just about anything known from antiquity, but the skill set takes time to acquire...

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#172960 - 12/12/12 09:28 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: oldranger]
JPete Offline
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Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 304
Loc: Eastern Ontario
The above really made me laugh. I'm from the Ozarks as well and have had the exact same experience. Tried often to nap chert, including one afternoon stuck sitting by a "braanch" (sound familiar, Bill?). Got several very sharp edges and cuts (including one on my knee that infected a bit), but never succeeded in learning how to do it properly.

I also now carry what I believe is the smallest Swiss Army knife, and have used the tooth pic and tweezers more than the blade. Far cry from the sheath knife that was my pride as a kid.

best, jcp


Edited by JPete (12/12/12 09:31 AM)

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#172974 - 12/12/12 01:46 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: JPete]
balzaccom Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/09
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OK--so on a somewhat related note, I will now derail this thread entirely. ON a visit to Spain a few years ago, one of the people who was hosting me took me out into the field to show me some ancient ruins. While we were there, he showed me the local rock, and how easy it was to give it a couple of whacks and create a primitive knife. Very cool.

Before he threw the knife back on the ground, I asked if I could keep it, and tossed it into my shoulder bag. I also promptly forgot about it.

Four days later, I am checking through the security line in Frankfurt, and the alarms go off. I am pulled aside and they ask me what's in the bag. I have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. He grabs the bag from the outside and shows me there is something about five inches long there. I still have no idea. He asks me to slowly pull it out of the bag. I reach in....and realize that it's the damn stone knife!

With as much innocence as I can possibly muster on my face, I pull it out and hold it out flat on the palm of my hand. I look him straight in the eye and say: "It's a rock."

He looks at the knife. Then he looks at me. We lock eyes for a few seconds. He knows that I know that he knows its a stone knife. But it's a really rustic looking chunk of rock.

"OK," he says. "You can go."

I still have the rock!

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#172988 - 12/12/12 08:30 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
wandering_daisy Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Jim has me pegged! I only take a small scissors all the time and a small super-light kitchen paring knife if I fish. Gutting fish with the little knife is not easy but hey, it only takes a few more minutes and I do not have to lug around a big heavy knife. If I had to, I could gut a fish with my teeth. Some fishermen can, but I cannot bite fishing line when I tie on a fly. A fingernail clipper is nice to have but when I forget to bring it, my teeth work fine. I do not bite nails now, but did as a kid, so am pretty good at it! I could still bite my toenails if it came to that. I really have very little feet or toenail problems- if I did I would be more inclined to always take a nail clipper.

I think you find uses for stuff you bring; you get creative and usually do just fine without. When I am solo, I can bite off cheese chunks and then spit them in the macaroni- nobody around to gross out.

I tossed the compass after 30 years and never using it. I read maps by matching topography and find north by shadows.

I never have had a need to make kindling- I find plenty of dry tiny twigs under trees and a good assortment of sizes of branches already no the ground for my fires.

My essentials include: needle and thread (or dental floss), one extra button, several safety pins, duct tape, small tube of seam seal, roll of FA tape, one ace bandage, one square of moleskin, a few bandaids, and my bottle of assorted pills- allergy medicine, Advil, a few cold tablets. I am a bit obsessive about taking several small boxes of matches and put them in different places. I take very little sunscreen (mostly wear clothes and hat), and an extra tube of lip balm (I am absolutely addicted to lib balm!). And although this sounds silly, several hair bands to tie a ponytail. You cannot believe how annoying it is not to be able to tie up long hair.

I have actually USED every item listed above, some several times. I really do not think I have anything I regularly take that I have never used.

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#172990 - 12/12/12 08:55 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: wandering_daisy]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
I take either a multi tool or a knife. Scissors don't do the job. The little nail scissors just mangle whatever I'm trying to cut.

I cut stuff - cord for tie outs or shoe laces, webbing, moleskin, tape that's too tough to tear. Whittled a spoon once. Used the knife to shave off a sharp toenail projecting over the end of the toe. Fishing line or cleaning fish is easier with a blade, as is chopping off the tail and head so it'll fit in a pot when I'm above treeline and can't make a fire. Opened a can once...

I think a knife is one of those things that you can't really make do, if you really really need one. It would be pretty bad being left holding a bunch of tubular webbing you had to cut and trying to do it with your teeth.
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#172991 - 12/12/12 09:41 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: wandering_daisy]
Jimshaw Offline
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Daisy,

I have one of those nail clipper like dealies on my flyvest for cuting line. I do generaly carry nail clippers in my first aid kit - they are good for digging out ticks and splinters of fixing a busted nail and I always carry a small nail file.

I have found that those blue hydrogel burn pads are really wonderful on all kinds of wounds from scrapes to burns and they heal much faster too. I haven't had to use them on myself but a couple of friends have benefited from them.

And eyedrops. I always carry a tiny bottle of eyedrops like just a couple grams worth, but if you get something in your eye camping, being able to rinse it out just might save an agonising trip home.

I've never sewn anything while camping and I would NEVER put duct tape on any of my expensive gear and have goey stuff on it later - I'd rather lose the down and replace it and repair it later.

I carry a Gerber LST knife. Its about 3 inches long open. Many trips it never comes out and is prety much only used to cut up food.

With dogs you have to carry extra - sometimes I carry my gun to protect my dog. Carrying a bowie knife might not be unreasonable instead under the circumstances, but you have to be prepared to actually knife something lethally or it don't matter.
Jim grin

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#172993 - 12/12/12 10:07 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
wandering_daisy Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Lori- my little scissors are high quality and cut cord, moleskin, and just about anything I need to cut. I have not had any need to cut tubular webbing. Were I to take tubular webbing that may need to be cut, I would take something suitable to cut it! I am much more adept at scissors than a knife. Jim- I think the need to sew stuff has a lot to do with how long you are out. I am often out 12+ days and things do rip and need to be sewn. The needle comes in real handy to take out slivers too, or pop a blister (I know first aid people say not to do this, but it sometime is needed). I do use the duct tape sparingly, but have an anciet down jacket that has very artsy duct tape patches all over it!

Jim - what are hydrogel burn pads? Do you get them at a drug store?

I think the point is that those of us who are out a lot, end up taking what we use and need. Each of us has different circumstances, thus different needs. A lot of those little things are really handy but not absolutely necessary. If I take ALL of them, my ditty bag starts weighing over a pound and half! You sort of get on a slippery slope adding stuff. Packing for any particular trip is always a game of choosing wisely.

But, over all, I think the "Ten Essentials" has been good for beginners over the years and probably has saved some lives. I think the Ten Essential list is more important for day hikers because few think they ever would have to spend the night out.

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#173001 - 12/12/12 11:27 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: wandering_daisy]
Gershon Offline
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Registered: 07/08/11
Posts: 1110
Loc: Colorado
A knife must not be essential because I don't carry one. I do carry scissors.

I don't need a knife to cut moleskin because I don't bring mole skin.

There could be a time when I need to make a sling from a corner of my footprint. Scissors would be a lot better for that. I could need to cut up a shirt for a bandage. Scissors would be better for that. Scissors are fine for cutting 550 line.

The one thing scissors are not good for is accidentally cutting myself. I like that feature.
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#173003 - 12/13/12 01:49 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: wandering_daisy]
Jimshaw Offline
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Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hydrogel burn pads are sterile - well hydro gel - a gelatin type stuff in a thin sheet about 1/32" thick and they are like 96% water and they breath, kind of like skin. If you slap it on a wound your body thinks it has skin and spends its time healing the wound rather than protecting the wounded area with scabs and stuff. Tape it down and you're good. My friend had a fairly large abraded area on his leg after slipping on granite. I had a big pad, maybe 4x4 and we put it on the worst of the wound and a couple of weeks later the area under the hydrogel pad definitly healed better and faster. Of course they were meant to be a second skin on burned areas. They feel very soothing and cool.

I've been using a pair of medical scissors about 5" long - maybe "plaster cast" scissors with blunted ends, but man do they cut!!!

I have a serrated edged "belay knife" to cut the leader free, but I only carry it when climing with certain people shocked Carrying a knife under those circumstances could be essential to life - mine.

Now that I've said all of this - I have a confession: cry I have a large knife collection and it really upsets me that I have to leave them at home. frown because no one has yet given me a convincing arguement to carry any of my skinners, slayers, tantos or short sword... not even a reason to pack a machete... Maybe the buck fillet knife on occasion - like I should need a 7 inch blade to clean my fish. laugh
Jim grin

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#173016 - 12/13/12 11:23 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
balzaccom Online   content
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Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
Originally Posted By Jimshaw


I have a serrated edged "belay knife" to cut the leader free, but I only carry it when climing with certain people shocked Carrying a knife under those circumstances could be essential to life - mine.

Now that I've said all of this - I have a confession: cry I have a large knife collection and it really upsets me that I have to leave them at home. frown because no one has yet given me a convincing arguement to carry any of my skinners, slayers, tantos or short sword... not even a reason to pack a machete... Maybe the buck fillet knife on occasion - like I should need a 7 inch blade to clean my fish. laugh
Jim grin



I loved this post! Thanks Jim!

Once again, it's becoming clear from this discussion that ther are different ways of solving problems on the trail, and the people on these boards have developed successful ways to do that. Which is why we are able to have so much fun in the mountains.

And yeah, for newbies it is probably a good idea to overpack--at least until they know what they are going to use best!


Edited by balzaccom (12/13/12 11:23 AM)
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#173036 - 12/13/12 03:07 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
finallyME Offline
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Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
I carry these guys:

I first started carrying them in Iraq. Much easier to open MREs with them then my big knife, and safer. I just stuck them in my flack jacket. Since I always had them, I used them the most. More than my multitool, and more than my big knife. I carried a big knife for last ditch self defense, in case I ran out of bullets. Anyways, I was young and dumb. Anyways, these scissors will cut through most stuff, including webbing, and they are pretty light for their ruggedness.

Jim, unless you go hunting, you won't need your skinner. The tanto is great for stabbing someone, but that's about it. Unless you are planning on a quest through middle earth to fight orks, a small knife will suffice.
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#173038 - 12/13/12 04:05 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: finallyME]
Rick_D Offline
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Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Darn Orcs started carrying nickels to get into my Bearikade! mad

[shakes fist]
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#173054 - 12/13/12 08:17 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: finallyME]
rockchucker22 Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Originally Posted By finallyME


Jim, unless you go hunting, you won't need your skinner. The tanto is great for stabbing someone, but that's about it. Unless you are planning on a quest through middle earth to fight orks, a small knife will suffice.
I found tantos actually skin really good, you just have to watch the tip.
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#173093 - 12/15/12 05:03 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: finallyME]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Fme
I remembered your mention of using those in Iraq and when I found a pair out in the back room, I adopted them. WOW is about all you can say. goodjob Its one of those ultimate solutions that works so well that you have to be cautious using it. laugh

Anyway I sort of put together a list for my personal use, for driving up the ridge for a day in the snow. Since its a day hike (ski), its mostly all "ten" essentials.

remember the winter trails are not the same as the summer trails and a map may you no good at all especially following a winding ski or snowmobile trail through a forest.


Little pack
Fire - 2 BIC lighters
Sit pad - against back in pack
Water bottle and maybe a thermos flask of hot coffee
Flashlight
GPS and map if available - often available at trailhead
Montebell puffy down UL jacket with hood (snow proof)
Insulated hat with ear flaps and under chin strap - brim
Waterproof warm real winter snow gloves or mitts
Packlite over pants - most probably worn if its snowing

this in addition to what I wear to ski:
long underwear - probably Montebell
a 200 weight fleece jacket with pit zips
ski gloves
smart wool balaclava
goretex shell jacket with hood and pitzips
boots/socks
_________________________
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#173096 - 12/15/12 07:42 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Well, I just got back from a couple nights out and I used my little 4" fillet knife after one of the whippersnapper backpackers I went with stumbled over his feet and fell into my tent and tore it up.

I suppose I could have tore the duct tape instead of cutting it with the knife, but I'm really glad I had that tape to fix my tent!

Ooo... I also filleted a big can of beans with my knife! Don't know how I would have got into them without it. I would never carry in a can of beans myself, but another whippersnapper did (with no way to open them) so I sliced my way into a share of them with no arguments. grin

Didn't see any bears again, not even any signs of them, so I didn't have to kill any of those again with my knife. It was still a close call though because they're sneaky. They were probably hiding and sizing me up when they watched me cut up that can of beans and duct tape and knew better than to mess with me after that.

That's why I figure a knife is still essential in the Ozarks. Unseen Bears and whippersnappers need to know you have one, and that you know how to use it too. cool
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#173105 - 12/16/12 10:36 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: billstephenson]
rockchucker22 Offline
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Registered: 09/24/12
Posts: 751
Loc: Eastern Sierras
Bill your a goofball!
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#173125 - 12/17/12 09:42 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: billstephenson]
Dryer Offline

Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Interesting..."can of beans". These days, I'm finding all sorts of cans with pull-top lids. I never hike with cans but while hiking the Chisos mountains last month, one of my friends pulls out a can of mandarin oranges with a pull top lid. Seemed odd and smart at the same time, because he ended up with a spiffy drinking/cooking pot and Esbit pad (the lid) when done. I've carried a p-38 can opener on my key ring for years but can't remember the last time I used it, so I might take it off (it pokes me in the thigh grin).
A sign of the times....when can openers pass into history.

Costco has Leatherman PS "TSA Compliant" 1.58oz. tools in a 2 pack for $25. I bought a couple packs for gifts. No knife blade. Scissors, nice pliers, tweezers, file/screwdriver, and slick bottle opener/carabiner. Good for airline travel but still doesn't beat my little Swiss Army Classic for hiking. I play a lot of darts so the Leatherman PS bottle opener and pliers could come in really handy. cool
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#173171 - 12/19/12 06:15 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Dryer]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I used to carry one of those little folding can openers. They're really light, and really small, but after going through my gear list over and over I realized I'd probably never use it again, so it sits somewhere on my shelf with other old gear.

That guy carried a BIG can of beans too. I couldn't believe it when I saw it, but it wasn't the only heavy stuff some of those guys carried. One carried a big steel wok, and they had steaks and potatoes and onions and eggs and sausage and all kinds of heavy food and drinks.

They were glad to share it, and I was glad to have a share. Luckily I was able to share a few things too. Not much, but I had salt and pepper, and I brought way more instant coffee than I needed and they were really short on that, and I pulled out a few other niceties to share, so it worked out pretty good for all of us smile
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#173176 - 12/19/12 10:15 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: billstephenson]
Dryer Offline

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Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3591
Loc: Texas
Ah, that sounds like a kayak/canoe outing. No such thing as ultralight.
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#173189 - 12/20/12 12:49 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: billstephenson]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Bill, I guess you really "opened up a can" on that whippersnapper. smile

I usually find a can or two of something when I inspect my scout's packs. Sometimes I let them bring it (for character building) and sometimes I ask them to find something else that is lighter (like a sandwich). I will usually require them to come up with their first dinner, and the troop will supply the remainder of the meals. One kid brought a foot long subway, just strapped it to the back of the pack. Ate the whole thing too.
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#174594 - 02/02/13 09:41 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: finallyME]
djtrekker Offline
member

Registered: 02/02/13
Posts: 43
Loc: Virginia
I guess essentials depend on what I'm doing. I do backpack fishing, snowshoeing, trail venturing, kayak camping.
When I get into deep forest road or 4W trails, one thing I always ensure is that I have a spare tent, warm changes of clothes, water, bedding (blankets or sleeping bag), and food in my Jeep. The tent is probably overkill, but I hate carrying things between the Jeep and house, so I put "stuff" in the Jeep.
Leatherman is an essential for me, again because I'm lazy - it's a prime house tool for me and it just goes where I go. It's handy for fishing, performs many tasks with knife, scissors, screwdriver, even sharpens hooks if I need it.
I carry a 50' length of paracord always, it has been useful many times both on trail and road, sometimes more to help other trekkers. First aid kit and repair kit I always carry, and I've used the repair kit. Sewing kit I have used, but I would have to say I didn't "have" to. I would not be without first aid kit, though I rarely use it. I don't know about the value of an "essentials" list, except when just starting out one should have something to go by I suppose.

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#174766 - 02/06/13 07:27 PM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
Samoset Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Newnan ,GA
10. sunshine
9. Or clouds and rain
7. wildflowers
6. Mountain air
5. river
4. fly rod
3. flys
2. A good dog
1. Some one to tell me where to find the trout
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#174894 - 02/09/13 11:02 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Samoset]
balzaccom Online   content
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
Originally Posted By Samoset
10. sunshine
9. Or clouds and rain
7. wildflowers
6. Mountain air
5. river
4. fly rod
3. flys
2. A good dog
1. Some one to tell me where to find the trout


Cute, But you can cut down on your pack weight if you can find trout on your own, so that you don't need someone to tell you where to find them... laugh
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Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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#174905 - 02/10/13 12:06 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: balzaccom]
Samoset Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Newnan ,GA
Originally Posted By balzaccom
Originally Posted By Samoset
10. sunshine
9. Or clouds and rain
7. wildflowers
6. Mountain air
5. river
4. fly rod
3. flys
2. A good dog
1. Some one to tell me where to find the trout


Cute, But you can cut down on your pack weight if you can find trout on your own, so that you don't need someone to tell you where to find them... laugh


Good advice , the last guy just said , you know there in the river right.

In all seriousness though Ive always have some kind of blade on me while anywhere!
Weather dedicated fixed blade, multi tool , folder or what hAve you


Edited by Samoset (02/10/13 09:46 AM)
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#181543 - 12/30/13 01:32 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Jimshaw]
Talthing Offline
member

Registered: 12/29/13
Posts: 24
My .02 here...I would imagine the following list will save your life better than what type of knife or firestarter you took (or didn't take)

A detailed safety contingency plan with someone back home. This plan should entail:
1. A description of your party (how many, who)
2. Make, model, license plate of vehicles
3. The trailhead you parked at
4. A point by point description of your route
5. When you plan to be out.
6. Color and make of your backpack and tent

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#181549 - 12/30/13 09:23 AM Re: no knife ten essentials [Re: Talthing]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By Talthing
My .02 here...I would imagine the following list will save your life better than what type of knife or firestarter you took (or didn't take)

A detailed safety contingency plan with someone back home. This plan should entail:
1. A description of your party (how many, who)
2. Make, model, license plate of vehicles
3. The trailhead you parked at
4. A point by point description of your route
5. When you plan to be out.
6. Color and make of your backpack and tent


This is all stuff you do *before* the trip, handing it to a trusted friend - it's your family's essentials. Not yours.
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