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#172103 - 11/19/12 10:45 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Tobi]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By Tobi
Have you ever considered a portable charge holder for cell phones?


Sure, we've discussed them a lot here, and generally go over every new product that comes to market. And everyone of them is evaluated on weight vs performance.

Everything we carry is given a great deal of consideration. As for me, I don't carry one. I keep my phone off unless I'm using it, and I only use it for a few minutes when I do.
_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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#172106 - 11/19/12 11:52 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: TomD]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
I'm not saying people shouldn't be rescued, but at least they should make some attempt at self preservation and not rely on outside help completely or assume a gadget will save them.


Tom, I understand what you're saying here, believe me I do. The guy you mentioned who made the first SPOT call for help is a perfect example of someone who really should not be out there, and I don't disagree that he should have been fined and/or made to pay the costs of his second rescue. That's the only way he would learn that SAR is not a free shuttle service.

But the two kids I can be more forgiving with. If they went out the next week and repeated the same mistake I'd have to be less so.

I quit going to the Buffalo River NP on weekends/holidays because it's full of people who either are not prepared, or refuse to listen to canoe outfitters who advised them on what they need. Several trips in a row there turned into rescue missions for me, and after the last few, which all were the result of those people refusing to take heed to good advice, I concluded that I was being taken complete advantage of by these types, and that they would most certainly have survived without me there. It would have been uncomfortable for them, no doubt, but they wouldn't have died.

I rescued a guy and his four year old son who were clinging to a tree in the middle of the river (it had changed course during a recent flood) while his wife and at least 30 members of his church stood on the bank for over 20 minutes doing nothing for them before I got there. It was the largest collection of dolts I've ever seen together. I got his son first, and when I got the kid to the shoreline, not one of them, not even the boy's mother, came to take this frightened kid from my arms. I literally had to scream at them to get them to do anything to help, and not once, but several times. They all just stood there looking as dumb as dead wood. When I was done I sat on the bank for about 5 minutes catching my breath and calming down, and not one came over to thank me.

I did learn that it was their first canoe trip and it was organized by their church. I don't know what, if any, advice they were given before getting into their boat, but I know they didn't make it 100 yards before they tipped their canoe over and got pulled by the current into the tree, and that no one with them was willing to help them.

By far, most of those I've SARd didn't even say "Thanks". Several of them actually demanded I help, and got testy because they didn't get a luxury limo ride back to where they started from.

Some of those rescued will learn a lesson. They will either learn from their mistake and prepare next time, or never go again, or they will never learn and continue to depend on the kindness of others. The latter group need to be made to pay something, somehow, for their shortcomings that cost others.

I don't have the experience that oldranger or Lori have, so I can't say how many are in that latter group. I expect I will run into more of them, and when I do I will help, but I won't spend my leisure time going to where they congregate anymore. I'll let the pros deal with them instead.

I could go on and relate all those stories, but let's suffice it to say that I do understand you.

_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172124 - 11/19/12 04:19 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
Heather-ak Offline
member

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 597
Loc: Fairbanks, AK
This reminds me of why I love where I live. I can't imagine anyone expecting to be rescued up here - I'm sure it happens, but a lot more of a rarity.

I have a PLB, but I'd be embarrassed to use it unless it was really bad - and I'd still be embarrased, just more likely alive and embarrased.

Bill - your story below, sounds like they were in shock. Our culture anymore is so "safe" that people freeze - they never learn to deal with shock or emergencies.

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#172135 - 11/19/12 06:34 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Heather-ak]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I remember when PLBs first came out the common expressions of fear that great hoardes of untrained yuppies (the early ones were expen$ive) plunging into the wilderness because, "Hey, you push the button and get rescued if you screw up!"

To my knowledge this hoarde never appeared, and there are certainly fewer far fewer false alarms than those from EPIRBs.

I suppose there might be the occasional fool who does believe so long as he's got his gizmo he's good to go, but I suspect the lion's share (heh) of folks who are simply unprepared still just...go. Buying a PLB involves a certain amount of forethought about actions and consequences.

Heck, at the time of my last trip on the Oat Mill trail, the trailhead is across the road from a bar and grill. If still the case, what better way to burn off that burger and some IPAs than a nice walk up this pretty trail? Celebrate your hike afterwards? Heck, pre-celebrate!

Even with their propensity towards, "Hey, y'all, watch this!" moments, I don't think many longtime Alaskans head off unprepared. The consequence list is a whole lot bigger and more dramatic than a chilly California night huddled under an oak while scary deer paw the ground from the darkness.

Cheers,

Originally Posted By Heather-ak
This reminds me of why I love where I live. I can't imagine anyone expecting to be rescued up here - I'm sure it happens, but a lot more of a rarity.

I have a PLB, but I'd be embarrassed to use it unless it was really bad - and I'd still be embarrased, just more likely alive and embarrased.

Bill - your story below, sounds like they were in shock. Our culture anymore is so "safe" that people freeze - they never learn to deal with shock or emergencies.
_________________________
--Rick

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#172137 - 11/19/12 08:35 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Heather-ak]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Hi Heather
I'm with you - I'd feel embarassed to ask for rescue. What ever happened to crawling out or dying because you were so stupid that you deserve it? How many climbers have said "I'll get there even if it kills me", and it does, and they do not expect to be rescued.

No somehow this rescue thing seems to be mostly reserved for everyday normal domestic type city dwelling idiots who shouldn't have been doing what they were doing in the first place (Oh my did I say that?). What is this propensity for rescueing everyone???

When I would go into the Sierras for a few weeks I'd tell my mom that it wouldn't be worth looking for me if I'm not back by then because I don't know exactly where I'm going. Now for those involved in SAR this is a horror story - OTOH see my post about people-cams. Some think we would be safer if we were constantly monitored.

Personally I do not carry a cell phone, not camping and not while not camping. grin I do carry a gps because it does get signals were I go unlike cell phones. I guess they won't go away, and since they broadcast your GPS location anyway, those that carry one should feel extra safe. It is not an essential item.
Jim eek
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#172143 - 11/19/12 11:16 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
I would have to be completely stuck before I'd call for help, but if I ran across someone else who was in trouble I would err on the side of caution without a moments hesitation and call.

Heather, it is still hard for me to imagine a group of that many adults all standing there doing nothing. Could they really have all been in shock? They were just standing on the shoreline, not more than 15-20 feet away from where those two were in the tree.

I still am amazed at their behavior. I just can't imagine doing nothing.
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172148 - 11/19/12 11:58 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By billstephenson


By far, most of those I've SARd didn't even say "Thanks". Several of them actually demanded I help, and got testy because they didn't get a luxury limo ride back to where they started from.

Some of those rescued will learn a lesson. They will either learn from their mistake and prepare next time, or never go again, or they will never learn and continue to depend on the kindness of others. The latter group need to be made to pay something, somehow, for their shortcomings that cost others.



We will go looking for folks who are lost whether they are trying to commit suicide, arrogant old brats who pretend they are impervious to everything and experts in everything and never stay on their itinerary, mentally ill folk, drunk or high folk... it matters not a whit why or how they got into what they are into, they're lost or hurt. If we get there and they say go away, we do. Then the deputies sort it out.

We go look for repeat offenders who don't learn. (There's one.) So? It's training.

So far, most rescued folks we've encountered have been pretty thankful, and families make donations often. Most are not terribly arrogant or stupid. It doesn't take much to cross the thin line between "near miss" and "big mistake." Some nice thank you letters have been read to us at monthly meetings.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#172166 - 11/20/12 09:44 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: lori]
JBrzysk Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 9
Loc: Western New York
On the topic of the cell phone call with the teenagers, this past Thursday during the Buffalo Bills game a fan was eject and told his brothers to meet him at a local bar. He decided to take a short cut through a wooded section near the stadium, he ended up being face down in a small creek. The Local police department pinged his cell phone to find the location of where he was. this "ping" tool could be helpful as well with backpacking or outdoor activities if you have your phone on you.

here is a link to the story [url=http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/erie/bills-fan-found-dead-in-nearby-creek][/url]

Most people carry their phone with them everyday, so the phone is almost like part of the body.

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#172167 - 11/20/12 09:54 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: JBrzysk]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
By the time we got done with all the paperwork we could have been searching for two-three days. It takes too much work for too little gain to ping cell phones that way - agencies trying to wrestle information out of cell phone companies is too difficult. We expend our energies and resources in ways best suited to actually finding the subject.

In an urban search, this sort of thing begins to make more sense. Perhaps someday the process of getting such info can be streamlined to take less time and approach being worthwhile.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#172171 - 11/20/12 01:15 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: lori]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Creating an app for a phone to send a lat/long to a given address at set intervals should be a very simple thing.

We have to remember, there has been very little done to take advantage of this tool for our purposes or SAR. There is great potential, and it will be put to use, but things have to work there way there. This particular potential is not near as easy to monetize as an app that shoots cartoon birds from a slingshot.

People have their priorities.

_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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#172179 - 11/20/12 02:30 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: lori]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Lori has it right - rescue first - moralize and judge later, much later, if at all.

Lori might have included the rescue of criminals. It is startling, at least for the first time, to see your erstwhile victim spread over the hood of a squad car, on his way directly to jail without passing "Go," and without collecting $200.

One thing to point out about the advent of new technologies in the outdoors and into SAR is that this a glass half full/empty situation. There have always been operations that in hindsight were unnecessary squanderings of resources and time. Back in the day, we often looked for and contacted people who were just fine, not needing assistance of any sort, but who had triggered a callout simply because they were overdue. It is a simple decision really - the negatives of a failure to respond to what actually was a serious situation are truly horrendous. If you respond to a non emergency, at worst you have a good training opportunity and perhaps a nice walk in the woods.

Essentially the cell phone and PLB/SEND technology allow for better communication. That has to be good. What is needed is better and more universal training and education of those going outdoors. This is something that a lot of SAR groups emphasize, along with field operations.

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#172181 - 11/20/12 02:37 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
Last year two cases of deaths and missing persons were from church groups - the stupid kids who went over Vernal Falls and a guy that got separated from his group up at Yosemite Falls, never to be found. Although well meaning, it is my experience that church groups are a bit clueless about wilderness safety. I wonder if it is thier overzealous belief that all you have to do is "have faith" or it is all "god's will" and become very passive when action is what is needed. I was raised in a church that told us "god helps those who help themselves"!

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#172188 - 11/20/12 03:35 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: wandering_daisy]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
My own take is that I never rely on a cell phone for emergencies. At least out here in the west, you're generally out of reach of most towers. Even in places like the Columbia River Gorge where there are plenty of towers, you won't have reception while down in a canyon--and most of the trails are down in side canyons! I generally take the phone because I don't want to risk leaving it in the car, but it's turned off the whole time. I don't want to receive any phone calls out there anyway!

The other thing is the "overdue" situation. Except for short dayhikes on frequented trails, I always email an itinerary to my DIL in Seattle before I leave. I always tell her to wait 24-36 hours (depending on destination) after my "due out" time before calling, because I'm always prepared to stay out an extra night or two if necessary--and have sometimes been known to stay out an extra day on purpose. I also allow plenty of time to get back into cell phone range, which may be an hour's drive or more from the trailhead. I know that I can trust her not to panic and call SAR ahead of the time I've given. Anyway, I always have my PLB with me, so if I'm overdue and haven't pushed the button, I'm either delayed due to something other than an emergency or I'm already dead!

Of course if I have one or more of the grandkids with me, I'm a lot more careful to get them home (or more likely to the nearest pizza place, for them a mandatory stop) on time!

Unfortunately, many church groups don't have strict safety standards as the scouting groups do. They may also not have experienced leaders, or enough adults to keep track of the youngsters. Any of those can be a recipe for disaster.


Edited by OregonMouse (11/20/12 03:39 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#172193 - 11/20/12 04:43 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By billstephenson
Creating an app for a phone to send a lat/long to a given address at set intervals should be a very simple thing.

People have their priorities.



Not about people's priorities. It's about doing what it takes to do the job. That is THE priority.

The app needs to work without data connection.

Search will be based on verifiable info. If we have to guess - does he have his phone? Does the phone have the app? Did he use the app? - forget it. We're looking up his itinerary, interviewing the reporting party, and starting from the point last seen. Law enforcement does not operate on Maybe if it can be helped. Footprints trump 'Maybe we can ping a cell phone'.


Edited by lori (11/20/12 04:46 PM)
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#172198 - 11/20/12 07:58 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Tobi]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Tobi, the issue isn't a charger, it is coverage and reliance. There are parts of Los Angeles (like my apartment in MDR) for example, where Sprint customers can't get a signal and yet people expect their phone to work everywhere. As I said earlier, unless it's a satphone, not going to happen.

btw, what's the difference between God and a doctor? God doesn't think he's a doctor.


Edited by TomD (11/20/12 08:14 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#172201 - 11/20/12 11:21 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: TomD]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I have a Verizon phone and the coverage at my son's house in northern Seattle is basically non-existent. I have to go outside and walk up the nearby hill a quarter mile to make calls.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#172209 - 11/21/12 11:13 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: OregonMouse]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
My cell (verizon) doesn't work in my own house unless I walk down to the end of the driveway, or go into the backyard. I do caryy mine when I backpack though it is in airplane mode to save battery. I don't carry it for communication, as the places i go also do not have coverage. I carry it as my camera, and digital map set, notebook. I have turned on the GPS with the backcountry navigator app just to mark waypoints when I find something intriguing and want to remember the exact spot.
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http://ducttapeadk.blogspot.com

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#172212 - 11/21/12 12:02 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
JPete Offline
member

Registered: 05/28/09
Posts: 304
Loc: Eastern Ontario
Have just recently (four years) started carrying a cell phone at the behest of my new (five years) wife. Never even wanted one in town before.

Like others, I leave it off most of the time. I turn it on for an hour at six pm each day, but it will collect texts even when turned off. However, I find that many of the places I hike have only occasional, marginal coverage, though texts sometimes get through.

Like others I've started learning to use it as a camera, and sooner or later, I'll get a GPS/map app. It's kind of fun. I'm a photographer, but have never (well ok, once) carried cameras on the trail. But since I like to carry the phone to keep my wife comfortable these days, I'm finding the camera function is a delight.

On the original subject, I don't do well trying to relate to people who are completely lost or stranded, because I have never been. It must be a horrible, panicky, hopeless kind of feeling.

I've gotten off trail a number of times, but I knew generally where I was, knew that I could quite comfortably stay there for a couple of days, and if necessary follow a compass course that would have to hit a road within a few miles (but then I'm in the east and I carry good maps). I've done exactly that three times, and another time, I was able to cross country to pick up the trail. Worst one was when I got caught behind some small lakes and had to do some corkscrewing around without being able to be certain of my turn points (deep woods). That was worrisome because if I missed too badly, I could have been heading off into a pretty large roadless area where all the little lakes looked exactly alike (this was in Algonquin Park). But it worked out ok. I had about a mile of leeway and hit it pretty close to the middle. My problem then was not knowing where I was on the road, so didn't know for sure which way to go. Frustrating, but not dangerous.

best, jcp

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#172213 - 11/21/12 12:06 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: lori]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
Not about people's priorities. It's about doing what it takes to do the job. That is THE priority.


I meant that some people's priority is to play Angry Birds, which they will pay for, and not planning for a safe trip, which they will not pay for.

If there were a market for a "SPOT" like app one would have been made long ago. I'm pretty sure the little "Navigraphic" app I made was the very first attempt at that.

The brand new "Locate" app introduced here a few weeks ago is the only other I know of. There was over a year gap between the two. This tells us a lot about the market for this product.

Quote:
The app needs to work without data connection.


That's impossible. (applies to Satphone, EPIRB, SPOT, cell phone, TV, radio, land line, etc.)

Lori, I am not advocating the ownership of a cell phone as a replacement for knowledge, experience or planning. What I am trying to point out is that it can be a tool used to help save lives. As the OP pointed out, it already has been.

The simple app I describe here would, for example, automatically send OM's lat/long to her DIL every 6 hours. You don't need to "Ping" the phone. The phone is pinging OM's DIL. (I'm using the term "ping" rather loosely here)

If OM is overdue and her DIL calls you and you see the position sent has not changed for a day or two you can assume that the phone has not moved and OM may be nearby. (A ping sent to the phone will tell you no more than that.)

That's all you get from that and nothing more. But it's info you would not have had otherwise and it is valuable info. In this scenario SAR does not have to go through any red tape to request a ping, you received this info with the first call from OMs DYI.

From that you point you can continue to try and call the phone to see if you get a response. If you do, you're probably way ahead with locating your party and bring what's specifically needed for the mission. If not, you still have a good place to start looking for them or their footprints.

--

We should not dismiss the potential. It is very significant, even right now as it stands.

I'll say this with the utmost certainty, it will not be long before lives saved that started with a hiker carrying a cell phone will exceed that of all the other available devices combined.

This will be a result of accessibility, not reliability.
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172215 - 11/21/12 01:04 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Do folks know about this?

Delorme Inreach for Android

I think this is where the technology is headed.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#172217 - 11/21/12 02:35 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Rick_D]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
No matter what i do, my phone dies within ten hours. I am not alone in the crappy smartphone battery department. So such measures are beyond workable for those of us too broke to afford a decent phone. I had to get a portable charger battery so i can review a gps app!

It will all be pointless anyway, if scuttlebutt i hear is true. Search teams will become nothing but recovery teams, since satellite advances will make it possible to zoom in and scan for critters in any terrain and identify them accurately. Not even a need for boots on the ground at that point.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#172219 - 11/21/12 04:06 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: lori]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
I wouldn't worry much about satellites putting S&R out of bidnez. The Pentagon and the NSA and the CIA keep all the cool ones to themselves and their satellites are Uber expensive. There's also the problem that you have to wait for the orbital path to intersect the area you need to search; this would be just as true for civilian satellites. Geostationary satellites, like those used for weather and communications, are far too high for detailed ground surveillance.

Rather than satellites, I'd expect remote drone tech to be used and pretty soon at that. They're proliferating and prices are dropping. But a substitute for boots on the ground? I'd guess more of a supplement, at least for now.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#172220 - 11/21/12 05:01 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Rick_D]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By Rick_D
Do folks know about this?

Delorme Inreach for Android

I think this is where the technology is headed.

Cheers,


That's pretty cool. It's sort of a combo of SPOT hardware device with a smart phone app that has additional tools.

The price is still a bit inaccessible, but it's a good start towards integration of the technologies. Satellite connections may come down someday now that we have a few private rocket launchers in business.

It doesn't take a lot of bandwidth to send the predefined messages they offer, but I don't know much about what's available, or the demands on it.

_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172223 - 11/21/12 05:35 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
If the phone continues to work. Mine won't. Pretty much out of luck if the battery gets cold or the trip is more than ten hours.

I meant the data connection you get with a cell tower. Most apps on mine do not. The gps app i have does but the rest, forget it.

And of course, the hiker would have to leave info that they are using the app and there will be minimal chance of it. We could not get a reporting party to remember which trailhead they dropped off the group at. But, that will always be a problem regardless. 99% of all search subjects don't believe they will ever need rescue.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#172239 - 11/22/12 01:39 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: lori]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
FYI, I can't remember the last time the battery went dead on my compass. smirk

Also, my big red parka-easy to spot from a helicopter. And yes, I am serious about both of these points. A map and compass will outlast any device unless you have brought a charger of some sort and having bright clothes or some sort of orange panel will aid anyone looking for you. I used to carry a small flare gun that came in an emergency pouch that may have come from Campmor. It had the flare, a mirror, a few other items.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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