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#172192 - 11/20/12 04:42 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? *** [Re: Racoon]
Samoset Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Newnan ,GA
There are no problems only solutions!


left: MSR Reactor on a short 4oz/113g isopro
Canister "using a few rocks found around campsite to increase stability"

Right: MSR superfly on a tall 73/4oz / 220g Coleman fuel canister" using three MSR titanium nail pegs to secure the canister to the ground" < íVERY STABLE!

I would however love a light weight pressure gauge or something that would let me know how much fuel remains in partially used canisters . say 2-3 oz id buy one!
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Some peopole live life day by day. Try step by step.

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#172195 - 11/20/12 06:57 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Samoset]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 829
Loc: Torrance, CA
Originally Posted By Samoset
...
I would however love a light weight pressure gauge or something that would let me know how much fuel remains in partially used canisters . say 2-3 oz id buy one!


A pressure gauge won't tell you how much fuel is in a liquid fuel canister. The pressure inside the canister is the saturation pressure of the liquid for the temperature the liquid is at. That is pretty technical, but what it means is that a pressure gauge will just tell you the temperature of the fuel inside the tank.

You need to weigh the tank to know how much fuel is left. I think there are some lightweight postal scales that would meet your requirements.

something like this: http://shop.miniscience.com/navigation/detail.asp?id=PSS_US1


Edited by BZH (11/20/12 07:07 PM)

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#172199 - 11/20/12 08:08 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: BZH]
Samoset Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Newnan ,GA
Originally Posted By BZH


A pressure gauge won't tell you how much fuel is in a liquid fuel canister. The pressure inside the canister is the saturation pressure of the liquid for the temperature the liquid is at. That is pretty technical, but what it means is that a pressure gauge will just tell you the temperature of the fuel inside the tank.

You need to weigh the tank to know how much fuel is left. I think there are some lightweight postal scales that would meet your requirements.

something like this: http://shop.miniscience.com/navigation/detail.asp?id=PSS_US1


Makes Sense.

If one of these comes in under 3 ounces might have to check one out!

Does anyone know off hand how many grams a tall fuel canister weighs full? So I know which scale I would need?


Edited by Samoset (11/20/12 08:34 PM)
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Some peopole live life day by day. Try step by step.

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#172202 - 11/21/12 12:20 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Samoset]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
It's a relative thing. You need an idea of how your stove really burns fuel for the kind of "cooking" you do, so it's no good to just do this once.

Weigh the canister when you get it. Write it on the top of the can in Sharpie Marker.

When you get back from a trip, weigh it again, and note how many boils you did.

Next trip do the same. You start to get an idea of how much fuel you're using per boil.

When empty, measure the can - gives you an idea of what an empty really weighs for next time.

Variables include temperatures (very cold operating temps = less efficiency) and amount of water boiled.

I can tell you with some certainty that the way to get a solid boil more quickly is to place the canister in a dish of water (not warm or hot, just water). Worked great last trip when it was 30F in the morning and the stove was being wimpy about heating the water.
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#172204 - 11/21/12 09:30 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: billstephenson]
Racoon Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/07/12
Posts: 7
Loc: New york
You are exactly correct Bill; we are looking for affirmation of a problem that we think exists. We began surveying local boy scout troops and it showed that a problem existed. We just wanted to see if experienced backpackers have the same reaction to our suggested problem. All the information and ideas people are throwing out there is great; however, we simply must stay on our topic or else we will have to begin our project over. Our class we are in prevents us from just easily switching topics no matter how slight they may be without conducting a new survey and validating a new problem statement.

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#172205 - 11/21/12 09:37 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Racoon]
JBrzysk Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 9
Loc: Western New York
All your replies help us when it comes to researching a market for a product. We now know how concerned you backpackers are about weight. our group being younger more agile kids don't think about the weight to a matter of ounces, we just pack and go.

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#172206 - 11/21/12 10:36 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: JBrzysk]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
What's agility got to do with anything?

Pack-and-go is the beginner default. at some point you figure out all that stuff weighs a lot more and has a bigger impact on the trip and your body than you thought. Some of us figure it out at 25 and some of us later on, but it doesn't matter how old you are.

As I said, folks who don't use backpacking stoves a lot (scouts go what, once a year? twice?) are going to be the target audience. People also think that I'm a lunatic for using a backpacking quilt instead of a sleeping bag because their preconceptions tell them it won't work as well, despite the fact that I've used it for five years and would definitely do something else if I were ever cold or uncomfortable in any way. Ideas and preconceptions are what sells useless items like bear bells.

If you want to create a marketable item, you have one - there's no real need but clearly they are selling for MSR, Brunton, etc. If you want to create an item that's needed - that's another thing altogether. We need things like water treatment (if we don't want to be sick, ever) and food, shelter, navigation tools, first aid kit, pack, insulation, clothing,... everything else in the pack, even the stove if you want to be honest, are optional and a matter of preference.

_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#172208 - 11/21/12 11:07 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: JBrzysk]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 654
Loc: Upstate NY
It isn't an age thing, nor an agility thing. Mostly it is an experience thing, and a why carry something that isn't needed thing. Less weight isn't about age nor agility, it is about being able to carry more of other things (like food) or cover more distance or both. Since we are in the same area, I will extend an open invitation to join me on any of my trips. I get out at least twice a month to the Adirondacks including multi-week trips in the summer.
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http://ducttapeadk.blogspot.com

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#172211 - 11/21/12 11:21 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: JBrzysk]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 2835
Loc: Portland, OR
All your replies help us when it comes to researching a market for a product.

Our typical forum members are a very hard sell when it comes to any item that is an add-on which serves only one function. I agree with lori's assessment that your natural target market would be inexperienced backpackers who have not learned how to optimize their loads for the highest functionality per ounce.

From a purely marketing perspective, there is no reason to design your gadget to any specification that does not help to move it off the shelf. If your product is perceived to serve a need, it does not matter whether that need actually exists, or could be better served at lower cost, or is purely an illusion. Once the gadget is sold, your job is done.

Sadly, those boy scouts you surveyed are prime examples of your natural target audience. They are too inexperienced to distinguish between want and need, or to judge cost and utility. Also, they have equally inexperienced relatives who buy them gifts!

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#172214 - 11/21/12 12:35 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: aimless]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3865
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Those are great points aimless.

Marketing is not one of my strong points. blush

From what I've read here and from others, it's certainly not the Scouts' Leadership's fault. Parents will send those kids ill prepared in incredibly creative ways that would never occur to most of us here. laugh

_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172218 - 11/21/12 03:52 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: billstephenson]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 654
Loc: Upstate NY
Bill your post reminds me of a funny story which seems to repeat every year. Scout brings his pack to be be inspected by patrol leader. All is well. The next day the scout is dropped off for the campout and we arrive at the site. Scout complains his pack is heavy. Arrive at camp and scout's patrol leader notices many items in the pack that weren't there previously when it was inspected. Scout says, "my mom put them in there". Patrol leader replies, "well your mom isn't carrying your pack". Scout learns.
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#172411 - 11/28/12 09:17 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Samoset]
Tobi Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 24
Loc: Buffalo, NY, U.S.
I would recommend simply weighing it before and after to calculate the weight of the fuel. You could probably tell how full it is afterward if you hold it to see how much it feels like it weighs. That way you cant take the scale completely out the equation.

Weight: Nothing.
Cost: Free.

I cannot really see this being a problem so long as you are able to get "a feel" for how much it weighs, which, seems viable.

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#172415 - 11/28/12 10:12 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: DTape]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
All of your comments about scouts are right on, in my experience. With my troop, I try and do 2 backpacking trips a year, minimum, with at least one winter sled haul in addition. This year we did 1 and the sled haul was cancelled from lack of snow. Last year we did 3 with a 50 miler in there and one sled haul. But, talking with other troops in the area, we are the exception and backpack way more than most. A lot of troops don't backpack at all. You need leaders that want to, or even know how to. I have to pressure some of my leaders to go, just to get the minimum number required so we don't cancel trips.

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I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#172427 - 11/28/12 02:16 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Tobi]
Samoset Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Newnan ,GA
Originally Posted By Tobi
I would recommend simply weighing it before and after to calculate the weight of the fuel. You could probably tell how full it is afterward if you hold it to see how much it feels like it weighs. That way you cant take the scale completely out the equation.

Weight: Nothing.
Cost: Free.

I cannot really see this being a problem so long as you are able to get "a feel" for how much it weighs, which, seems viable.


I've held a lot of canisters and different types and can tell you I've Ben burnt once or twice. Holding a canister in my hand and guessing at how much fuel is left in said canister.

The scales main use will be at home. Wich has no adverse effect on pack weight!
But would help in deciding wether to bring the canister or new one!

I would however like a ul scale for trips up towards a week to help regulate fuel uses and avoid running out!
_________________________
Some peopole live life day by day. Try step by step.

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#172721 - 12/06/12 09:40 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Racoon]
Tobi Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 24
Loc: Buffalo, NY, U.S.
Thank you all for your participation and input. All of the constructive responses posted on this thread have been fully taken into consideration and reveiwed by me as well as all members of our group. We appreciate your coopoeration, and your willingness to participate in our survey. Due to the fact that we have hit our quota (100 responses) for our survey, we will likley become inactive on this thread. Again, thank you for all of your help and we will see you on the threads.
-Tobi

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#172723 - 12/06/12 11:11 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Tobi]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3865
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
So we won't get to see your end product?

I was really hoping we would.

In any case, I hope you do well with your project!
_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



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#172730 - 12/06/12 12:54 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: billstephenson]
Tobi Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 24
Loc: Buffalo, NY, U.S.
That's actually a good point. I hadn't really considered that. I think that we will show our final product, however the class in which we are doing this product and our teacher is kind of inhibiting the process with some needless things, so, for now we won't be posting it for a while. I will try to get the final product on this forum. That won't probably happen for months though, seeing as the teacher hadn't allowed us to start making solutions to the problem until about 1 week ago.

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#172919 - 12/11/12 01:52 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Tobi]
MMD Offline
newbie

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 12
My stove is unstable. one time it shot fireballs in all directions.

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#172969 - 12/12/12 12:48 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: MMD]
Tobi Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 24
Loc: Buffalo, NY, U.S.
Well I don't think that I can help you with that. However you might want to contact some sort of manager for your product.

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#173010 - 12/13/12 09:26 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: OregonMouse]
Tobi Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 24
Loc: Buffalo, NY, U.S.
Hey OM, what would you say are some vital aspects of a product like this? We are trying to design a product, but we need some vital criteria around which we can base our product, and I would like to hear what you have to say. (Or anyone with some criteria in mind.)

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#173049 - 12/13/12 07:52 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Tobi]
Samoset Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Newnan ,GA
light weight: as in less than 1.5 oz

Low cost: less than seven bucks

Multi use. Make one leg a can opener, another a Phillips and one a flat head,

Then pack it twice, use it once, then place it atop the pile of gear that you'll eventually unpile onto some noob wink

_________________________
Some peopole live life day by day. Try step by step.

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#173065 - 12/14/12 10:32 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Samoset]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
One leg should be a 400 lumen flashlight, with three light levels, SOS code, and stroe.


Edited by oldranger (12/14/12 10:32 AM)

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#174495 - 01/31/13 09:14 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: oldranger]
Tobi Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 24
Loc: Buffalo, NY, U.S.
As a backpacker, do you tend to prefer LED lights over normal lights?

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#174496 - 01/31/13 09:18 AM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Tobi]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By Tobi
As a backpacker, do you tend to prefer LED lights over normal lights?


Yes, absolutely. LEDs require less power, so the battery lasts longer, so you don't have to carry as much power. They can also take a hit, so you don't have to carry spare bulbs. I won't buy a light unless it is LED. That is my first requirement.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

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#174541 - 01/31/13 07:22 PM Re: Is your backpacking stove unstable? [Re: Tobi]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
"normal lights??" - LEDs are the "new normal" - vastly superior to incandescent bulbs

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