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#171993 - 11/15/12 08:23 PM When your cell phone works...
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
It really works!

From the Napa Valley Register:


Two 19-year-old teenagers were rescued Wednesday evening from the Oat Hill Mine Trail near Calistoga with the help of the Napa County Search and Rescue team and a California Highway Patrol plane, Napa County Sheriff’s Capt. Leroy Anderson said.

A CHP plane was dispatched shortly after the hikers used a cell phone to call for help at 5:47 p.m. after getting lost off the trail, Anderson said.

The plane spotted the hikers at 6:50 p.m. and a Napa County Search and Rescue team, knowing the hikers’ GPS coordinates, hiked into the area, he said.

Search and Rescue volunteers found the man and the woman at about 9:30 p.m. and led them out of the area, he said. The teenagers, whose hometown is unknown, were not injured.


(I like the fact that they were 19 year old teenagers. Whatever happened to editors?)
_________________________
Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/

Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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#172004 - 11/16/12 09:09 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: balzaccom]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Aren't you a teen until you turn twenty? At nineteen, they are in the category of adult (for most purposes) teenagers....

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#172007 - 11/16/12 11:29 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: balzaccom]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
It works when you have a signal. I've been saying that for a few years now.

That's why I programmed my "navigraphic" app to send a "Need Help" email that includes your lat/long. It's why it overlays your position on a weather radar map. Those two features could save your butt, if you have a signal.

I just released the upgrade to my ezInvoice app yesterday so pretty soon I'll have some time to do some more work on that navigraphic app (the weather forecast doesn't work), but since it's free and doesn't weigh anything it's worth bookmarking with your smart phone's web browser now. Better to have it than not.

_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172012 - 11/16/12 12:33 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: oldranger]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Based on my status as a dude man guy, I can surmise that sentence was crafted by the department of redundancy department.

p.s. I've hiked that trail and can't envision getting lost up there, but what the hey?

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#172013 - 11/16/12 12:37 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Lots of places, at least out here in the west, that there is no signal. In fact, many times I lose the signal while still in the car driving to the trailhead. And the phone quickly uses up its battery when searching for non-existent signals. You're more apt to get a signal when up on a ridge, but that won't help if the emergency happens down in a canyon. IMHO, I'd never want to rely on a cell phone for any kind of emergency coverage when hiking or backpacking.


Edited by OregonMouse (11/16/12 12:39 PM)
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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#172018 - 11/16/12 12:59 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: OregonMouse]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
I can't think of a trailhead we use that has cell-phone reception.

And yes, if they are 19, they are teenagers. And minors. And you don't have to say it twice or three times.
_________________________
Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/

Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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#172028 - 11/16/12 02:08 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: balzaccom]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
And minors

One small correction: with a few exceptions like the legal drinking age, 18 is now the age of majority.

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#172029 - 11/16/12 02:21 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: OregonMouse]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
IMHO, I'd never want to rely on a cell phone for any kind of emergency coverage when hiking or backpacking.


It's not really a matter of relying on a cell phone. A smart phone is a multi-purpose toolbox and it can come in handy if you have the rights tools in it. I leave mine off unless I am using it, which is rare, so I don't have any issue with batteries going dead.

If you do break your leg on a ridge where you have a signal it'd be nice to be able to communicate with the world. You can if you have your phone, you can't if you don't. It's that simple.

I understand that there are still great expanses out West where there is no coverage, and probably never will be, but that's not the case when you get east of the Central Rockies. As a general guideline I think it's time to stop promoting the idea that cell phones are not worth the weight.

I don't think it's ready to be promoted to "Essential" yet, but it should be a weighted decision based more on usability in the area you'll be backpacking than just personal preference.

It's not just your life you could save if you have a cell phone with you.
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172031 - 11/16/12 03:40 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: OregonMouse]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2939
Loc: NorCal
Probably the only places I hike in the Sierra with any kind of reception are in the Tahoe basin and off the Interstate 80 corridor. Anywhere else, nada.

Calistoga, in the wilds of northern Napa Valley, probably offers fine reception when hiking the hills. The Oat Mine Trail starts at the lower left corner of this sat photo and ascends the ridge via an old road as seen in the overlay. It's a nice wintertime trip, just mind the ticks.

Oat Mine Trail

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#172040 - 11/16/12 10:50 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Rick_D]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
The pathetic irony here is that the kind of person who tries to use a cel phone in the wild to call for help is the kind of person who will need it.

Satphone or PLB and maybe a SPOT are the only reliable gadgets for rescue.
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Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#172041 - 11/16/12 10:59 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: balzaccom]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
This also highlights the fact that a lot of people on the trails near urban areas do not make a very hardy attempt to self-rescue. They just hit 911 and expect help. They were not hurt. They got off trail, and it was getting dark. In the "old days" we would have just hunkered down until daylight and then found our own way out. Taking a cell phone and expecting a rescue is irresponsible. Every day hiker should have enough gear to survive, if not comfortably, one night out. Weather in Napa CA is not that cold. But I do not know all the details. On the surface, my first reaction is that they should be billed for the rescue.

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#172044 - 11/17/12 03:01 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: wandering_daisy]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
The first time a PLB was used in the US, it was by a guy from Ohio who was canoeing in upstate NY and got stranded in the snow. He set it off and was rescued. A couple of weeks later, he went back to get his gear and set it off again so he could get another helo ride. The second time he got arrested and fined for misusing it.
http://www.equipped.com/plb_first_use.htm

Another article on the misuse of the PLB, headlined "Yuppie 911"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33470581/ns/us_news-life/

This story highlights the fact that people assume that a ride is just a call away, so why bother to actually prepare properly for where they are going.


Edited by TomD (11/17/12 03:04 AM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#172047 - 11/17/12 02:36 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: TomD]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
It is no surprise that there are selfish people. What always surprises me is that there are so many of them.

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#172048 - 11/17/12 03:00 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: TomD]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By TomD
The pathetic irony here is that the kind of person who tries to use a cel phone in the wild to call for help is the kind of person who will need it.

Satphone or PLB and maybe a SPOT are the only reliable gadgets for rescue.


There is no such thing as a "reliable" device for rescue. Activating a SPOT of PLB does not mean you'll be rescued. It doesn't even mean you'll be recovered.

If I needed help and had a SPOT, a PLB, and a cell phone with me, and the cell phone got reception, that's what I'd use first and I can't see how that would make me more pathetic than if I'd chosen one of the other devices.

I can certainly see how communicating with rescuers using a cell phone would make their job much easier.

All things considered (including the fact that I do not own a PLB or SPOT), I'd say it would be pathetic if I owned a smart phone and didn't have it with me when it would work and I needed to call for help.

It would certainly be pathetic if those two kids would have died out there. Rescuers are either volunteers or professionals, in either case no one is forcing them to go on rescue missions. They can quit anytime they want too, but as a function of society I think their mission is a noble, worthy, and respectable one.
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172050 - 11/17/12 07:28 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: aimless]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Unprepared hikers venturing into rough country and getting into deep doo-doo is nothing new. It is just that now it may be that extricating them is a somewhat simpler and straightforward operation. It is often easier and cheaper to send a helo to a known location than to launch several teams into a road area, knowing only that little Johnny is overdue.

The root problem is still the same - ill prepared and inexperienced people taking inappropriate trips. Education is the better answer.

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#172051 - 11/17/12 07:44 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: oldranger]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
I am not saying they should not have been rescued, just that, to the extent that thier rescue was due to thier being ill prepared, they should be required to at least contribute to the rescue expense. Yes, SAR people are volunteers, but someone pays for the fuel for the airplane. Counties are now under such financial stress, that basic services are being cut. Education is good. But a little nip at the pocketbook may make it more beneficial for the irresponsible to get some education.

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#172055 - 11/18/12 11:43 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: wandering_daisy]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Your point is quite logical, and finances are tough for counties right now, but I think you could make a reasonable case for the use of the cell phone actually saving everyone time, money, and discomfort, if not more.

Absent the cell, they would have continued to try to regain the trail, perhaps suffering a fall, twisted ankle, or something similar. By the next day, someone would realize they were missing and would contact authorities. Then would follow a more massive search effort, most likely centering on their automobile parked at he trail head, involving more time and effort, as well as probably expense.

This isn't far fetched. I have participated in at many operations that follow this general script, before cells or even CB radio.

In what way were they not prepared? They were probably not the most expert, but should there be a financial liability for losing a trail? Who decides "preparedness?"

"Sir, i am issuing you a citation for 'failure to do right'" said the ranger grimly.....

BTW, a lot of victims have voluntarily contributed money, as well as a huge amount of good will (often translated into broad based community support) to their SAR group..

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#172060 - 11/18/12 05:00 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: oldranger]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Most SAR groups, certainly those here in NW Oregon, are very much against charging for rescue. They claim, and I believe with considerable truth, that if there are charges for rescue, people will delay calling for help until things get critical. By that time, deaths may result.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#172069 - 11/18/12 08:54 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: OregonMouse]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
But think of the merchandising opportunities - "place your rescue request before 5 PM on Sunday and take 20% off! - void on major holiday weekends" or "Have hot tea available for your rescue squad and save $30...."

Yes, I agree that charging, except in egregious circumstances, is a bad idea.

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#172076 - 11/18/12 09:27 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: Rick_D]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
Originally Posted By Rick_D
Probably the only places I hike in the Sierra with any kind of reception are in the Tahoe basin and off the Interstate 80 corridor. Anywhere else, nada.

Calistoga, in the wilds of northern Napa Valley, probably offers fine reception when hiking the hills. The Oat Mine Trail starts at the lower left corner of this sat photo and ascends the ridge via an old road as seen in the overlay. It's a nice wintertime trip, just mind the ticks.

Oat Mine Trail

Cheers,


And the poison oak. scratch, itch, scratch...
_________________________
Check our our website: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/

Or just read a good mystery novel set in the Sierra; https://www.amazon.com/Danger-Falling-Rocks-Paul-Wagner/dp/0984884963

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#172077 - 11/18/12 10:04 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: balzaccom]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
"It would certainly be pathetic if those two kids would have died out there." For their family and friends, perhaps; for the rest of us, not really. If you care so little about your own safety or the safety of those who come looking for you, volunteers or pros, then it is hard for me to have any sympathy for you.

Accidents do happen, even to the prepared. That is not what I am talking about. I'm talking about people who are totally clueless; the kind of people who wade into deep water when they know they can't swim (happens all the time) or go off on a hike with no map, light, food, water, jacket or other basic supplies and then expect others to save them from their own stupidity with no consequences.


Edited by TomD (11/18/12 10:05 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#172080 - 11/18/12 10:52 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: TomD]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Tom, you didn't get to be you age without making a few stupid mistakes. Has no one ever come to your aid when that happened?

Did Jim tell you that you were stupid when you went backpacking with him and got sick from eating bad food?

Doing something stupid on occasion is pretty universal. Look at General Petraeus. (He might be wishing he'd wandered off and got lost instead right now.)
_________________________
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"You want to go where?"



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#172083 - 11/18/12 11:24 PM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: OregonMouse]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2865
Loc: California
OM, in some situations staying out the night can cause death. In many others, no, just some discomfort. Weatherwise, it is pretty mild down here in California vs what you have up in Oregon. And as for being lost, how lost? Do you hit 911 after 5 minutes and cannot find the trail? Or do you make an effort to "rescue" yourself. Most people who hit 911 are usually in quite a pickle by the time they do that, but a few are just lazy. It is the lazy ones that should be charged a fine. Many who are rescued are grateful enough to give a donation. (I really think everyone who gets rescued should do that.) And those who really did not need a rescue in the first place should pay a substantional amount. Not so much that it would put them on the street, but an amount like a speeding ticket. I think people SHOULD think twice before calling for a rescue. I have spraind my ankle twice and hobbled out 8 - 10 miles. What if I had just hit 911?

But I do agree with old ranger - with a cell phone being able to communicate, is probably better than hitting the button on SPOT. I would hope that the person answering the 911 call would be able to properly assess the situation. For now, we may have the resources to send out a SAR for every 911 call. There may come a day when this is just not possible.

I would be interested in some solid statistics concerning pre-cell phone and post-cell phone SAR's per man-day trail/wilderness use. Anybody read any such thing?

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#172086 - 11/19/12 12:08 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: billstephenson]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Bill, What you are missing is that I was with Jim, an experienced winter camper, so getting sick was not that big a deal other than feeling rotten for two days. Plus, I knew exactly where I was, had plenty of food, shelter and warm clothes. I could function, just felt terrible, but was in no danger.

We were prepared. Had the weather been any worse than it was, we could have stayed put for several days, then walked out, even in a storm, if necessary. We had snowshoes, Jim had skis, we had plenty of fuel, etc.

My point is at least make some effort to protect yourself and don't just depend on the kindness of strangers, as Blanche DuBois said (A Streetcare Named Desire, Tennessee Williams).

And yes, I have done a few stupid things. I got hurt once scuba diving at night because I was with a buddy who didn't know exactly where we were and neither did I. I got slammed into a rock face trying to get out in high surf. Fairly minor in the long run, but still, a mistake on my part. I got lost for a short while up above Palm Springs two years ago. It was winter so the trails were covered with snow. But, I had all my gear, a GPS, map and compass and after a bit, figured out where I was and skied back to the tram station, none the worse for the delay.

I'm not saying people shouldn't be rescued, but at least they should make some attempt at self preservation and not rely on outside help completely or assume a gadget will save them.


Edited by TomD (11/19/12 12:11 AM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#172094 - 11/19/12 09:11 AM Re: When your cell phone works... [Re: balzaccom]
Tobi Offline
member

Registered: 11/09/12
Posts: 24
Loc: Buffalo, NY, U.S.
Have you ever considered a portable charge holder for cell phones?

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