I'd rather practice staying found, too! I don't think there's any way to get artificially (i.e. safely) lost and produce the panic from being really lost. Better to practice navigation and, above all, to pay attention to surroundings when hiking. That's why my "advice" on the thread in "Philosophy" is to look back frequently, especially at trail intersections.

There is an acronym which I have forgotten, which basically says stop, rest, eat something and have a cup of tea before trying to think things through. Learning to deal with stress in general is an excellent way to learn to cope with panicky feelings. It's usually easy to find such classes at your community or in your workplace or from a local health care provider (hospital?). Those stress-reduction skills are definitely transferable to backcountry situations!

Being prepared to stay out overnight, even on a short dayhike, is important. You never know! Deliberately staying out (preferably not too far from the car the first time, with a good headlamp and warning to your family/friends) is an excellent idea to be sure your "Ten" Essentials are adequate. You won't be comfortable but you should at least be warm and dry. It's something I've always said I'd do and have never yet done.

As Lori says, even highly experienced folk can get in trouble. This article is an excellent example: "The Perils of Certainty." Beautiful fall day, familiar territory, two friends (both highly experienced) having an interesting conversation... Fortunately, this one had a happy (if highly embarrassing) ending!

Training for emergencies is a good thing and done all the time in a professional setting; take the military, police, hazmat, firemen, and other first responders as examples. For medical emergencies, everyone can keep up on their first aid and CPR certs. I remember one party filled filled with HAZMAT field workers and someone started choking on some sort of raw Korean beef. We almost had to draw lots to see who would perform the Heimlich maneuver on the person. The point is that we all knew what to do because of our training, which we received each year.

Gershon brings up quite a few good points about map and compass skills, which are added on by jbylake. Gershon has really been working on the navigation skills over the last year and seems to have it down. It is the kind of skill that takes practice to develop an expertise in and continued practice to keep; just like making fire and other outdoor skills. However, I think it is one of those skills that is ignored due to our good trail system. Experience in following a trail on a map does not necessarily mean expertise in using map and compass.



I totally agree with this Gershon quote. I have NEVER been lost. But I have been unsure as to exactly where I was. On two occasions when sent out to do some field mapping (of geology), I was dropped off outside my map area. Both times it took me most of the day to positively figure this out. And both times I used the traverse method of field surveying to keep track of where I was and what I did. This way I was able to roughly reconstruct what I had done from a more regional map.


People who get lost may have experience reading maps, but also may be in an exhausted, hypothermic, hyperthermic, or another state of confusion. These conditions lead to bad decision making. Learning to recognize confusion, then stopping yourself and as OM said "make yourself a cup of tea" is just what you need to do in those instances. Set up camp and get rested; don't go compounding your problems by continuing to thrash about. Once you get rested and your head clear, then you can go back to your problem solving.

Practicing map and compass skills, first aid skills, and other backpacking skills is a great idea. I'm not sure I would practice getting un-lost, but rather not getting lost. Someone who has put in the time on these skills will respond to the emergency (or need) with the appropriate response because of the practice. How much to practice? In my opinion, until you develop a basic level of expertise in each skill.


Gershon, I'm looking forward to checking out your book as well.

In my opinion, most people who get lost don't panic. Stopping to have a cup of coffee isn't panicing. It's part of the method of getting unlost or at least not getting more lost.

Anyway, I hope this isn't spam.

My son wrote a book titled "Lost!"

The book is a story about 4 main characters done in parallel with chapters alternating between stories.

One of the characters is a 19 year old girl who gets lost on the Colorado Trail. It's real interesting to see the solutions my son came up with.

The book is free for Kindle today and tomorrow. (Oct 15/16)

You can get it here. .

My son is one of those who can glance at a topo map and know right where he is. But after writing this book, he mentioned he is going to be a lot more attentive now.

Most people who get lost don't register they get lost until they get more and more lost, and still don't figure it out.

Then they figure out nothing is where it should be, and sometimes panic. Sometimes they continue to believe firmly in the mental map they have (the compass is broken! the gps doesn't work! the hiker I met was wrong, and I'm going the correct direction!) and get more lost.

And then they panic, having overwhelmed and overtired and overexerted themselves.

Do some research. There's not mountains of it, but it is there.

Lori,

Next time I get lost 100 feet off the trail when I went to dig a hole, would you suggest I do nothing to try to self-rescue?

Now, I do prevent this as I'm directionally dysfunctional so I have to be real careful. I lay a trekking pole down pointing back to the trail before I do my business.

But let's say I was in a hurry and forgot about the trekking pole and got turned around.

Would you be against me going 200 feet in each direction using a compass to find the trail? Keep in mind, that's only 4 houses down on crowded city block.

There are some precautions. I'd find a way to mark the center so it can be easily seen from all directions. Then go back to it after each exploratory leg out.

I've used the compass enough to know what failure looks like. The most common cause is not opening the case far enough or not holding it flat. It's easy to sight 5 degrees off the bearing and move to it to be sure the dial is moving. A person should do that everytime they take a bearing.

A more common error might be reading 20 as 200. That just takes practice. With some compasses, it's easy to get a reciprocal bearing. That's one reason I use a lensatic compass. It's impossible to read the reciprocal.

I never have any metal near the compass, so that isn't a factor.

If you think the GPS has failed, just mark your location as a waypoint and navigate away from that. It will become pretty obvious it hasn't failed. Even if it's working, it's a good idea to mark the point you first get lost as a waypoint.

Worst case, make a cairn every 100 feet and move slowly in each directon using the cairns to come back to the center if I need to.

This could be easily practiced just by leading a blindfolded person into the woods and tell them they are within 100 feet of the trail. Then have them find the trail.

The procedures get more difficult as the distance gets greater, but they are not impossible.

Don't misunderstand. I'm not in favor of bushwhacking through very difficult terrain. But learning to solve the problem of getting lost is a later goal. To get there, a person needs to learn the ways to stay found. And in the end, that's the real goal.

The thing is, we keep talking about panic so much, we never get to any navigation techniques.

I know you meant that to be hyperbole, but it's too close to an actual search subject's story for comfort (she died).

The biggest part of navigation, other than knowing how and keeping the skills fresh, is keeping a straight head on your shoulders. I've been out just hiking and run into people who were in dire straits (my buddy is missing and he was the navigator!!!!! DO YOU KNOW WHERE THE TRAIL IS?) (hint: we were standing on it at the time...)

So I felt it was important to mention. Carry on.

Lori,

I'm really glad we have been playing verbal ping pong for awhile as it reminded me of something.

I'd NEVER teach "Don't Panic." Once the word is mentioned, then of course a person is going to panic. Afterall, if people always say "Don't panic!" It must be because everyone does.

In fact, I'd never teach "Remain calm." This goes against everything I've ever taught as an instructor pilot and a jumpmaster.

When something bad happens, it seems like it is better to turn to preplanned procedures.

In my opinion, the reason a lot of people mention making coffee or tea is it is doing something to get found. Whether the next step is setting up the tent and planning to wait or self-rescuing, it doesn't matter. There is an action.

If a person self-rescues, they should spend some time making a plan. Write it down if they have paper. Break it up into small parts of 100 feet at a time or so. Whatever the situaton calls for.

The thing is, a person can't dissociate into the comfort of action unless they have practiced the actions so they come without deriving them when lost.

We saw a classic case of dissociating into action with Bernie Sullenberger when he landed that jet on the Hudson. Bernie was my first instructor pilot. Everytime we flew, he'd simulate an engine failure and I'd fly it down to about 10 feet above a field. It paid off, as I had an engine failure on my first solo. Fortunately, I got it restarted. I also had 16 more during my flying career. Panic wasn't something I thought about.

Maybe it's a difference in background. Maybe it's a difference in ways of thinking that just exists.But it's my firm belief that learning skills can prevent the panic that happens in many people.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but not panicking is the something I don't even consider when something happens. In fact, I just realized I didn't even know how to spell it in previous posts.

Carry on.

Gershon, please give up. Conceed. Do you remember back in the days that we were in the military? I've been reminded in posts that "tying knots and swimming in cold water" wouldn't save us...LOL.

What was the first thing we were taught. 1st day, clas 101, don't PANIC we will find you. Keep your Cool, don't panic and over and over again.

And then we went into more advanced classes. Many dropped out.
But still we learned. Not by a line or two, in a manual, but more heavily trained. No one was sending us out to die, but it sure seemed like it.

Then we where hit with this type of scenario....Sleep deprevation, (intended_, 20K marches, (again intended) and then forced to find our way out of a mess, with a compass and a grid map, when our mental faculties were at the least, barely functional.

Some would call this "hubris", some would remind us that if we weren't informed of the Jung(ian) form of psychology, or if whe didn't transform ourselves into a state of "Zen", or found ourselves not completely in "one with the universe", that we were bound by our own hubris, and over confidence, that we were destined to die.

Guess what? I'm still alive, and so are you. So some may come full circle over and over and over...am I being redundant?, again, to be in tune with the universe, or not having read the pseudo intellectual psychology of "how to think when in trouble), how can we explain the existance of ourselves, to be still alive today? I don't know, maybe you can answer that.

As humans, we are all subject to our limitations. Mine is cold weather, But I'll take that training, where I was awake for 72 hours, and told to find my way "home" or drop out, as a much more survivable situation, than pondering my place in the universe, any day.

I think, although we were in differnt forces, in different day's, repition, repetition, repetiton, got us to our appointed position, more than all of the "zen" in the world. We trained to the point that we didn't need to stop for hours to ponder the universe, but act upon our training, correct our error's and go on. I know that many dropped or failed from our instruction, not everyone is cut out for it, some have other skills, but we survived, and did well in the process.

I know that it's not common in "backpacking", but I seriously doubt that many backpackers, including SAR, have had to make the serious decisicon to have the jump master pull 30 feet of our static cord, so we could jump into an area, under the 1500 foot safety margin, just to pull a 150 lb. manequine out of a bind (to replicate a save). I call it repetitive, because it causes one to not have to be frightened by the envioronment, but to be confident that our endlessly to the point of ad nausem training, as not to feel that it was "over confident" or "hubris". Just plain simple replication of what we were taught and capable of doing.

You've made points here, that I think are lost on others. Remebmer, we tie knots and swim in cold water....LOL....

I look foward to your books. I'm always open to new and improved methods. Just think if we were still using the same methods as our forefathers, who migrated throgh the wilderness, with a piece of "junk" compass, if they had one, and their knowledge. And think about the ramifications, if we ever failed to improve on their methods, where would we be now?

I'm willing to learn anything new, that would help, or be educational. It would be certainly more helpful than a "zen like" focus on the umiverse. Let me repeate for those who seem to lose focus. WE DID LEARN NOT TO PANIC, AND NOT LOSE our cool. That was the first day. Then you learn not to dwell on that for life, but to remember it. What happens after that is up to the individual's ability, and competence. Knowing what you're doing is NOT HUBRIS, and not over confidence. It IS, what determines who lives and who dies, not somebody's book. Actually I believe that's God's territory, but that's a differnt story that belongs somewher else. Geshon, feel free, if you need too, to tell me to read another book on the "psychology of saving myself, if i'm in trouble." Just kidding, waiting for delivery of yours. No matter what this thread evolves to, keep the info coming. I, at least, for one,
appreciate it.

J.

jblake,

Deep Wilderness Survival is a great book on the psychology of getting into or out of trouble.

I don't picture anyone who has participated in this thread as having any difficulties backpacking. I just see different styles. Most have done a lot more than I have. But that doesn't mean I'm any less safe as I stay well within my limits.

There really are opposing styles in teaching and learning. We are used to the military which we know works. But most people won't stand for it, so they need a different style of teaching.

The thing I do see is we aren't moving closer to the objective of the OP. How to practice being lost. There hasn't been a single skill practiced yet. If it takes a week to practice each exercise once, it will take a month to get through the first exercise and there are about 10 or 15 of them. I'm not suggesting theyare essential to survival, but they are essential to learning this one skill well.

It's pretty well established that the less one prepares for this backpacking thing, the faster the panic happens. And then you get to the point where you're 70 years old, been backpacking for decades, and panic isn't in your vocabulary - in fact, it takes a mortar up the shorts to get you to have any adrenalin in the situation, because you're pretty much bomb proof by that point.

A balanced response is in all instances a better choice. Just enough energy to get things done, not so much you lose the ability to be rational.

Look for a few "experienced" people and some non-hikers sometime. There's really no pattern to who survives and who dies, other than their attitude. Lots of completely untrained people survive the most unexpected and dire situations just by practicing acceptance and action, rather than frozen fear, apathetic surrender, or sheer raving wanderings charged with adrenalin, and no thought at all.

At one point, I was going to take my SAR team on an exercise where I led them out in the middle of the night, with radios, and got them thoroughly lost, then let them figure out without GPS units where they were and how to get back. It didn't happen because two of the team members were still struggling with cooperating, instead of arguing over how to use the compass.

Point taken..and well put. I used to be "addicted" to reading books on the subject, but many have been redundant, to say the least. I'm always looking for that "one" tidbit, that gives a person that "ohhhh, yeah, never thought of that one" moment.
If this makes sense, there's an old saying, "when you're sick, go to the doctor." That's the best place to get the answer.

J.

Your book should be coming today. Hopefully you get the one idea to make it worth it.

I think there's more to be said about OM's advice to "look back frequently".

It's the key to knowing where you are and backtracking your route. It's the key to not getting lost.

When you're not lost there is no emergency (for being lost anyway), so your training should be to avoid getting lost. I don't think you can simulate being lost with a blindfold test. That's really more of a "Survival" or endurance type test.

Personally, I think the suggestion of bushwhacking into an area that is of a restricted size and bounded by roads is the very best way to learn how to understand where you are and backtrack your route.

I agree too that about a 1/2 mile square is a good size to start off with. Take a pack with everything you need to spend a night or two and go in there and wander around off trail and find your way back. After you can get around that area and always know where you are, and find specific spots you've been to before, go do the same at another. Once you're comfortable start working your way up to bigger areas.

Once you understand how to navigate using the bigger, longer range features for long distances and the smaller detailed features for particular spots you can start bushwhacking for miles without a map or compass and not get lost. That's not to say you always know exactly where you are, not at all, but with practice you can find your way to where you want to go and you'll seldom get the burning rush of adrenaline that fries your brain when you realize you don't know exactly where you are.

So, while I completely agree that map and compass skills are very important, and fun to learn and use, I'll offer that practicing and honing your skills for traveling by instinct is also important and fun, and it can be done safely if you approach it right.

Like any such endeavor, you need to understand your limits, and to be safe you need to stay well within them. I've never had much of a problem doing that. It's not adventure that drives me, it's solitude and the thrill of finding super scenic spots that no trail leads to. That, and I just really like to wander around off trail.

When providing navigation training I consider the audience. If the class is full of people resistant to learning compass and map (I know, why are they there? People are like this....) I'll give an overview and talk about being observant, and stress that prevention end of things, that not needing the compass is easiest of all.

The rest of the time, it's bearings, parts of the compass, basics of map reading, and encouraging practice.

I want to pile on to OM and Bill's comment to look back.

I did a 3 mile in/3 mile out with my 7 year old and 9 year old this past weekend. My observant 7 year old noticed that the trail looked totally different on the way back (we might as well have through hiked) which opened up a good conversation on staying found, and how one piece of woods can look very much like another.

That and firebuilding were the primary lessons this past weekend. I consider that a continuing good start on their education.

Sincerely

Steadman