Hope this is the right thread for this post. I'm new here, found this site by searching using light + weight + backpacking. This really got my interest because I've always been a proponent for the advantages of packing as light as possible, while not sacrificing safety to save a few ounces.
Even in the military, I fought hard for shaving as much weight as possible, while still being able to accomplish the mission at hand, without sacrificing the ability to acomplish said mission. Usually just ended up with me banging my head against the wall, but I'm getting off my own topic.

First let me explain: When I say survivalist, I'm not talking about someone hunkered down in a bunker with 50K rounds of ammo and 10 years worth of food and water, waiting for the Mayan Calander to end the world.

I'm referring to those who have had at least minimal, up to expert levels of formal training, to survive the type of terrain that you'll be trekking through, no matter what kind of unexpected gremling jumps up and steals your gear and compass. (Yes compass, surely you use your GPS as a back-up, not a primary means of navigation, if you carry one, and know orientation techniques using a compass and at least some form of map).

I'm just curious, as I run into so many people who have no idea what to do "when all else fails" but consider themselves advanced or even experts. I've also had the unpleasant task of having to help locate and recover bodies, whose lives were literally wasted for lack of even rudimentary training.

Anyway, I'm just curious how others on this forum feel about this, and what training they may or may not have. I'm sure many of you who may be prior military or work in the rescue or ranger field or something related have had training. I often cringe when people I know tell me they are going to X location, with absolutely no idea of handle themselves in that environment.

Myself, I spent 20 years in the military, and am confident in just about any envioronment except mountaineering in extreme cold weather environments. I'm also not an experienced climber, mountain, ice or otherwise. The bulk of my training is desert (my prefered environment) woodland and jungle.
And even with some of the best training taxpayers can buy, I by no means consider myself infallible, by any measure. In fact, I'm still learning all of the time.

Not meaning to pontificate from a soapbox, so I'll leave it at that. Just curious about other's thoughts on this subject.

Thanks,
J.
P.S. (Edit) This months issue of Backpaking is dedicated to survival, when things go bad, then from bad to worse...

I think most of us are aware of common hazards and avoid those. Or are we? Most are afraid of animals while many are unaware that the major cause of fatalities is falls.

Until you added the information about Backpacker Magazine, I wasn't sure why you were posting.

Here is a direct link to the Backpacker Magazine article: http://www.backpacker.com/survival/

I wonder if there is a book that has hazards that are gotcha's but easy to avoid. For instance a snow bridge over a deep stream.

It would make an interesting book.

I didn't mean to imply that people here weren't aware of the usual hazards. Sorry if my post came off that way. I'm talking about true survival when stuff goes really, really wrong, and then get worse. In SERE training in the military, in different environments, *the ere (the evade, resist, escape portion doesn't apply here) you can be put in situations where things start off really bad, and only get worse.

I have a friend from my military days that started a desert survival school for backpackers and others who want to do trips in areas, or need too by the nature of their business, like Arizona, Nevada, CA, etc. People get a very good course in how to survive nearly everything that can and will go wrong, and turn their love of hiking into a nightmare.

Basically, that's all I was trying to say, and ask to see how many people take survival courses or other formal training for areas that pose serious potential life threatning situations.
Mostly out of sheer curiosity.

Thanks for the reply,

J.

Hmmm. Well, I live in California, but never took a survival class to figure out how to live here.

I think most of us on this board think of backpacking as recreational. That means that we know what dangers there are, and we do a pretty good job of not meeting them. We're in the mountains because we want to have fun and enjoy the spectacular beauty.

The very best survival course is one that teaches you to avoid getting even close to a situation that is life-threatening...and I suspect we all work pretty hard to achieve that goal.

I think survival courses are a good idea for the most part. Some survival shows I have seen exaggerate the risk by eliminating items that any camper would have; if they don't, they probably don't have survival skills anyway.

For me, survival skill #1 is have what you need. Granted you could lose everything--falling and losing your pack for example, so carrying a few essentials separately on your body would be a start (knife, matches, small light or headlamp for example).
#2 would be know where you are--not just geography, but expected weather. You'd be surprised how often we read about people caught in storms and come to find out they never checked the forecast before heading out.
#3 would be letting someone know where you plan to go and when to expect you back. No one is going to come looking for you if they don't know you are missing.

I'm sure this list could be a lot longer, but that's the very basics I can think of at the moment.

Survival is specific to the environment - I'm sure my skills wouldn't get me far anywhere outside California, say, Africa....

Search and Rescue teams get survival training (not that we will ever need it if we follow instructions and stick with the team).

What those skills don't help is the fact that aside from living on fish and wild onions, you really can't forage and survive in the Sierra Nevada. Not enough to eat there. I suppose trapping pika or marmot would help but, simply being extra cautious in preventing injury, not going climbing or glacier/snowfield walking alone, and leaving a detailed itinerary behind should do the heavy lifting in the situation.

I went through SERE in 1971. It really didn't teach much more than I learned in the Boy Scouts, but it was a good program. I'd love to do it again today.

Survival schools seem to run about $200 a day in Colorado. For independent learners, I don't think it's a good use of the money. For others, it might be a great vacation.

One objection I have with military training is it tends to treat nature as an adversary to be conquered rather than as a friend to live in harmony with.

I think all the survival skills a person needs to know can be learned independently through books, magazine articles, forums and Youtube videos. But I prefer independent learning. Others prefer a live teacher.

In order to complete the learning process, I feel the book learning needs to be drawn down to physical actions. Many times this can be done safely in a person's backyard or by walking in bad weather around their neighborhood. For many, it's difficult to get out in the field enough with a willing person to practice skills there. Consider someone who lives in Kansas planning a trek in the mountains.

When a person learns how to cope with unusual situations, it's no longer a survival skill. It just is. Often what seems like a survival situation to others can be an enjoyable situation.

In the wilderness, most situations happen slowly. Often sitting quietly without thought will result in a solution appearing. In my opinion, the time to stop is at the first sign of things not going quite right. This especially applies to getting lost or the onset of unexpected bad weather.

Mental skills may be more important than physical skills. With other people, group dynamics can be a major factor, especially with people you don't know. Many times, the person with the strongest leadership abilities has very little knowledge. This is one reason I gave up riding motorcycles with others.

Precisely..But as mentioned, survival classes should not be taught as nature is the adversary, as one person pointed out. Just the opposite. I went through numerous survival schools while in the military, and our unit, stationed outside of Riverside CA were primarily desert warfare specilists. Yes you can survive in the S.N.'s, in Death Vally, just about any where you need, if you know how...and you practice those skills.

It was also mentioned here that avoidance was the best method of "survival". Negative. If that were true we wouldn't have to worry about any situation, we'd just avoid it. The time to figure out you don't know what to do, is not when something bad happens. It doesn't have to be day's in the making like a major storm. It can go from a carefree day to a nightmare in an instant.

I'm not implying that people walk around paranoid, thinking constantly that something's going to go wrong any minute. If I were to think like that, I think I'd just give it up and take up bowling or something.

I guess what I was really referring to, is someone with no skills in above the tree line in the Rockies, having spent their whole lives, say..in Hawaii, buying gear and heading off for a winter expedition at 14,000 feet...granted that's kind of a far fetched example, but stuff like that happens more often than you think.

And Marmot might be quite tasty....:-)

Two things will get you in trouble more than anything. Arrogance, and waiting until things happen to find out you really don't know as much as you could, or should, to be where you're at..

J.

Regardless of one's training, you cannot be prepared to survive any environment. I went through survival school when I was in the Army; in those long-ago days it was called EES or escape, evasion and survival (I think). I thought then, and think now that the training I received was more aimed at building individual confidence than anything else. Too many in the military, especially those from cities, just gave up when confronted with an EES situation. This was especially so during the Korean conflict; EES training was aimed at rectifying the situation by teaching soldiers, Marines and airmen that even if you were alone and unequipped, if you kept your wits about you could, not would, survive and escape capture. Sadly, this training gave a lot of military people the notion that they could survive anywhere, anytime, and in any conditions; in many cases, this false confidence has carried over into civilian life.

Survival depends on training but also on circumstances. If one were to wind up in Antarctica, lightly clothed and without food, fuel and shelter you would die regardless of how well one was trained. The same applies with the desert. Survival in a temperate forest with full kit is another matter entirely.

I live in the desert and am intimately familiar with it, it's denizens, finding water and problems of travel. Again, if someone were to find themselves 80 miles from water in mid-summer, on foot, without gear and without water, survival would be problematic, at best, regardless of training. I also spent six months in Antarctic and have a keen appreciation for one's dependence on gear, fuel and food for survival there.

There are a lot of environments where the best survival strategy is to just get out of there as quickly and elegantly as possible. Eating a marmot or Pika (Perish the thought!) is a pale substitute for an expeditious walk to the nearest hamburger restaurant and, in fact, food is probably one of the less important requirements unless it is a marathon survival situation.

Pika, I don't think anyone can be prepared to survive in any environment at anytime. Your correct, and that would be a foolish if not insane perspective. When I started this thread, it was out of curiosity. Let me clarify. If you have no experience or survival skills in a desert environment, then I would not recommend you voluntarily step into Death Valley for a 10 day trek. (the roughest training and place I've ever been, but it's entirely dooable). Or the Sahara (second roughest). That's all, just simply that. I was not implying that if you were in an aircraft that crashed while flying over the artic, wearing a tank top, shorts and a pair of flipflops, that having extreme cold weather survival skills would help you much. I think I've tried to make that point several times in this thread. I don't think you should look at the enviornment your in as an adversary either. A challenge, yes, if that's what your going for and if it in fact is, but not and adversary.

I remember one of my survival instuctors saying something to us like this (or very close, it's been quite a while).
He said "The earth is like your mother, your father and your God. Like your mother it can feed and nurture you. Like a stern father, it can scold and admonish you, and like a God, it can give you life, or take it.

Having said that, if you read my original post, I was just asking who had formal training.

One person mentioned that self-learners can use the resources available today to teach themselves. Sure. I doubt if our early ancestors had any formal training, they learned as the went and they passed on what worked and what didn't, to their young.

I certainly didn't want to rankle any feathers, or create some sort of disconnect between those who feel in harmony with the universe and all that.

I just love the outdoors, and honestly, due to age and injuries, I don't really do the arduous challenges, I'm talking flat out ragged out, shredded, cut, bruised, letting out a big "whew, that was fun" and smiling like a possum at the end of the day, trips.

I would like to try some extreme cold weather trip of some sort, as part of my "bucket" list. But I don't know if that'll happen, and I wouldn't try it without some formal training of some type, and without a group of very experienced or expert people that do that sort of thing.

Happy trekking,
Jim.

Frankly, after quite a few decades in the outdoors, I consider the natural world neutral; it isn't my mommy or daddy, or anything else. It just is. Success requires flexibility and adaptation to circumstances as they arise - in this line, I was quite taken by the account of the hikers stranded by rising water in a canyon. I have been in that situation more than once and on every occasion our preconceived time table went out the window, a hard thing for many of us who are slaves to a schedule. Relaxing and waiting for the waters to recede also had unexpected dividends in every case. BTW, I have recovered about as many drowning victims as fall victims and nearly all of my SAR experience has centered on southern Arizona (Pika country). Common to nearly all of the victims was the need to get somewhere right away - like the dude who just had to get home to watch the 1978 Super Bowl, and to that end, charged right into the raging Rillito and a quick death. I, too, wanted to watch that game (Dallas vs. Denver and I was a Cowboy fan) but I gave it up to thrash around for a couple of hours in a fruitless attempt to find him.

I suppose survival schools and classes are generally a good thing, although I acquired my training before such things were very common, so survival schools are certainly not the only way. I learned a great deal by simply reading the literature, especially the American Alpine Club annual publications, "Accidents in American Mountaineering," and if I can do that, anyone can.

In my experience, the common denominator for outdoor victims is inexperience and lack of knowledge. This was certainly true for me - my very first excursion in southern Arizona was also my closest brush with serious injury or death.

Right after college, I was drafted into the Army. I learned nothing there that was useful to me in my later career in the outdoors. If you served later than I did (1960-1961) you probably knew a much more competent military than I experienced.

Just one more comment - living off the land. I doubt I would be much good at it, other than in very unusual circumstances. I doubt that a Pika has much food value - they are too tough and stringy, besides being tough to catch....

ha..ha...can't be worse than a pack rat....
J.

I'll second what someone said earlier about survival skills being highly context dependent. Around home... well, I'm from the state with the least remaining native habitat. It's a very different place from wilderness areas where you can hike for days and not see another soul. Which isn't to say you can't get in trouble in Iowa... but help usually isn't too far off.

Much of my knowledge, experience, and training in "worst case scenario" survival situations has been either in the winter (in the northwoods), or in southeast Alaska (would NOT want to have to try to survive an Alaskan winter... but the summer, no problem... and I'd rather get dumped in a southeast Alaskan winter than either of the two situations below). But of course, I'd be relying on fairly basic training and experience, with a side order of logic and creativity, and I'm aware that it would only take me so far.

On the other hand, drop me in the desert and I'd most likely shrivel up and die. I have a few vague ideas about finding water, and what to watch for as far as dangerous animals and terrain... but in reality, I wouldn't be prepared to deal with the situation at all. Fortunately, life rarely takes me to deserts!

Tropical rainforests, now... there again, I'd be completely screwed if I somehow found myself off-trail without my pack. But honestly, a good part of the reason I'd die if I were lost in the tropical rainforest is mental. One of the most important things to do in an emergency is stay calm and think things through... and I don't stay calm well in the jungle. It's the heat, the humidity, and the ants.

This is a backpacking forum.

If we are to talk about survival in the context of the purpose of the forum, PLANNING and AVOIDING is the very essence of survival. Know the risks where you go, plan and research, survive and enjoy your trip - that's the survival skills the leisure backpacker needs to know.

Having the skill to get dry, warm, etc. after the unexpected happens is the second half of the equation and hopefully one that you don't need to use.

Not everyone has to think like a bushcrafter and to backpack.

"Bushcraft" is pretty much illegal in designated wilderness areas, where the somewhat misnamed "Leave No Trace" principles reign supreme and are basically the law. No cutting green wood or standing dead wood, no fires at or above timberline, no fires at the more popular lakes.... Right now in the Pacific NW, fires are banned altogether because of the extreme fire danger (and a lot of fires burning right now). Outside wilderness areas things aren't so strict, but the US Forest Service frowns on cutting green wood anywhere. I'm sure there are other areas where bushcraft can be practiced, but it's well to be aware of the local regulations before doing so. Bushcraft can be fun, but if a lot of people do it in one area, it can be destructive of the environment.

Preparedness is far more important. Part of preparedness is having the right emergency gear, such as the "Ten" Essentials. With those, you may not be comfortable, but at least you'll stay warm and dry during an unexpected overnight or two in stormy weather. Another part of preparedness is planning ahead (also, BTW, part of Leave No Trace). This includes such items as studying maps of your route before the trip to identify water sources and camp sites, planning for contingencies, identifying bail-out routes if the trip has to be cut short, leaving an itinerary with a trusted person at home. Another part is learning outdoor skills in advance of the trip, such as maintaining your body temperature ("thermoregulation"), learning to cope with inclement weather, etc. These skills are best practiced close to home, in your (or a borrowed) back yard or at a car campground where your warm bedroom or your car and its heater are available if you mess up.

One thing not always mentioned is that you can go a couple of weeks without food, but going without water can incapacitate you in less than a day and kill you in a couple of days (or less). Unfortunately, we're all told "don't drink backcountry water unless you purify it." In an emergency situation, if the water is polluted (not all sources are), it will take a week to 10 days to get sick from it, by which time you'll be home and close to medical care. So go ahead and drink as much water as necessary to keep well hydrated. That's far more important than worrying about natural food sources--something I wouldn't have to worry about for several weeks in any case, since I have a perennial overweight problem!

I think it is interesting that a "desert rat" is living in Kentucky.

This is an interesting subject, despite the abundance of reality shows with that word in the title. Hard core skills are a good thing to have, but really, the kind of things Lori and OregonMouse are talking about are the necessary first step to proficiency in "survival" anyway. Some people take this survival thing too far and head off in an anti-social direction.

The desert is something that a few of us here are used to. That thermoregulation thing can be critical in this environment, especially in spring and fall where I am cause it can be scorching during the day and then freeze at night. Actual experience in a region is important. Resources that you have read about or been taught to rely on my not be available during the time you visit. For instance, getting water from a cactus requires that there has been rainfall in the area not too long in the past. These plants shrink and expand with the availability of water and can expand quite rapidly when water is available for the plant to take up. That's probably why many are ribbed in structure. And you are never going to get any moisture out of a prickly pear pad if the thing looks anorexic (all shrunken up) even though it is green.

They taste lousy and smell bad too!!

Lori,
Oregonmouse,
SKCedric,
Please re-read the thread.
Lori, I know this is a backpacking thread, Oregonmouse, I'm not talking Bushcraft, I'm talking about skills preparedness. I don't doubt that you'd get in real trouble if you had a compound fracture on a little known or traveled trail.
I'm also not saying that you need the skills of a Navy S.E.A.L, to survive a day trip in the woods with your kids, dog etc.
And fineally, there are no "pack rats" in Kentucky, you are correct, but wrong in your assumtion.
I've trained (especially in the military) in some of the most difficult deserts around the world. I spent many years in CA, more than 12, actually. We trained in the Mojave, Death Valley, South down in the Sonora, and further east, the massive desert property surrounding Nellis AFB in NV. Throw white sands New Mexico in there. Also the Sahara in Northern Africa, and other places too long to list here. I was a desert warfare specialist in the military. We trained for planning and avoidance, and guess what? We often encountered something we didn't expect. That's what it (training) is all about. I don't mean this as a jab, but if you are confident in your skills, and you feel "avoidance" and planning will help you if you're snake bit in the mojave, while on a solo trip, and 15 miles away to the nearest help, the I personally don't care if your planning requires only a bandaid and some alcohol wipes.

I will tell you this. We were the first ones the State Police, Sheriffs deputies, and other agencies called when they lost a (this is for you, Lori) a "backpacker" out in the desert or high desert mountains in Far Southern CA. Nine times out of 10 it was a result of someone getting lost, injured, or out of water, food, etc. Unfortunately we had to recover a few bodies. The final part of our contribution to the tax payers, was to back track the individuals path, and reconstruct everything that happened. Fairly easy to do. We found one body, less than 500 yards from a ranch home and highway. Had those people had at least a rudimentary understanding of basic survival skills, they might have, and at least one case I remember, ended their backpacking trip on a great note.
Lori, I know this is a backpacing forum, please read through the thread, and you'll see that I'm not advocating it be turned into a training class for Military Special Operations Units.
Aside from the afore mentioned tragedies I was involved in, I have pulled several people out of the desert that were just plain in over thier heads, and suffering from near shock, near heat exhaustion, and just plain to physically unprepared for the terrain that they didn't realize how difficult it could be.
They had said that they had planned for a long time, and still came up short.
So, I'd like to end this thread on an upbeat note.
1. I'm not trying to recruit Spec Op's troops here, that can survive anything.
2. I'm not trying to turn a "backpacking" forum into a survival forum.
3. I've been around the world, not just Northern Kentucky, and am familiar with what we do and do not have to eat here, vs. what you might find in the high desert of Arizona. Snakes and Rat's basically.
4. If you feel perfectly safe with your planning and avoidance philosophy, to the point you can do a 100 mile solo trek in unknown territory, well by all means carry on. I'm not trying to force feed my philosophy of having the survival skills for the type of terrain, weather, and other situations you may or may not encounter.

This thread was, if you read it from the start, was just a question, born of curiosity.

It seems to be going horribly wrong, with some folks I'm getting the vibe of "how dare you question my skills, I know how to take precautions". Never was intended to go there.

Thanks for your participation and input, though.

Jim.

Actually an interesting take on this is in the book:

Who lives, who dies and why by Laurence Gonzales

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_10?url=search-alias%3Ddigital-text&field-keywords=who+lives+who+dies+and+why&sprefix=who+lives+%2Cdigital-text%2C288

The point of the book is that conditioning and knowledge is not the most important aspect. A will to live and being able to handle adverse conditions mentally is what keeps someone alive. Frequently the 125 pound geek will survive while the macho he man dies.

Jim, I'm sorry you took my short addition to your thread the wrong way. The comment about the desert rat in Kentucky was just teasing you a little. I probably should have put a or such after it. My only assumption is that you might think it was funny. I always thought a pack rat was someone who had an over abundance of stuff like hardware stashed "just in case" like my neighbor. Here in Southern California, I have only heard of people like me being called desert rats. I'm 55 and have many winter months in the desert, including Death Valley and all over the Mojave just to name a few spots. Summer I try to avoid the desert. Even the high desert in California, like Edwards AFB, is just not that pleasant that time of year.

Anyway, my real addition to this thread is the second paragraph in my previous post. I've seen more than one person trying to show how to get water out of a cactus when we are nearing the end of the dry season. Even putting the cuttings into a survival still did not generate much water for the work that went into it. The snakes and creepy crawlies don't really bother me. In fact, the snakes are good eating if roasted nicely over coals.

Other than using your head, because that's the best tool you have, I guess I am not real sure what you are after. Seems to me that in the desert, being water wise and avoiding over heating is very important. Lots of people die in our desert every year, a fair number of them with some water left in their canteen. I believe its a similar situation along the Arizona border.

No harm, no foul. Yep there is a real creature called a pack rat. Not real meaty, and not real tasty, but it beats nothing.
Didn't take your post the wrong way. Also very familiar with some of the places you've been. Desert camping in the winter/late fall is great! Unfortunately, during my military years, we had to train year around, and it wasn't real pleasant most of the time. Just as an aside, there's a great deal of water in Death Valley, if you know how to find it, and where. No need to suck on cactus..LOL...
Yes, you are correct about people dying out there each year. Sad, and usually avoidable.
Enjoy your day, I'm leaving for a trip in the morning. Meant to leave a couple of days ago, but heavy rain/thunderstorm warnings so I decided to delay it a couple of days. This will be a pretty easy trip, but plenty to enjoy. Going into the Daniel Boone National Park for a few.
Also will be testing and evaluating some new gear, so that'll be fun (I hope) Testing at home just can't tell you how it'll be out in the field so I might load some extra "old" gear in the truck, just in case.
Have a good one.

J.

I think you are misunderstanding my intent.

I consider preplanning a survival skill because it is. Going into the wilderness, downtown LA, or downtown Tokyo requires some preparation for Most people because going anywhere without knowing what you are up against is dangerous to some degree.

As a SAR volunteer who has searched the central Sierra for hunters, day hikers, campers, fishermen, tourists etc who Had no intent to be in a survival situation, i can tell you that they are getting in trouble at about the same rate as people who should know better or have significant experience or training. We have looked for lifelong backpackers and barefoot kids who "just went for a walk." We are still looking for an experienced, prepared hunter who vanished. The main survival skill Most have in common is the ability to stay calm. Being in an altered state due to dehydration or making decisions while panicked results in worse outcomes.

Learning as much as you can before going backpacking radically reduces risk of many extremely common problems. Awareness comes first. Then you have half a chance at getting people to make an attempt at skill building. Preventive SAR is one of my current and ongoing projects.

"Daniel Boone National Park"??? Don't you mean Daniel Boone National Forest?? This is similar in magnitude to the classic distinction between "rifle" and "gun". Drop and give me twenty, trooper!

This thread can use a little diversion, anyway......

Lori, I agree. Planning is a survival skill. Heading out into difficult terrain, especially solo, requires much preperation and planning. Staying cool and confident comes with either experience or training, I think we're in agreement there also.
Being aware of your physical limits, is also a part of planning. Trust me, I'm getting older, I know. Now the only major component that seems to be at odds with, is knowing what to do when all goes horribly wrong. Staying cool, calm and level headed is absolutely necessary. But you can have ice water in your veins, and if you still do not know what to do, if your lust of nature, and the outdoors takes you to earth, and mother natures "bad" side all of the planning in the world can go out the window. That's the only point I was really trying to make. And a great many people have needlessly died, for lack of knowledge and skills. Do you see where I'm going with that? You can plan and prepare till the cows come home, but when the boogeyman comes, as we used to like to say, can you deal with him? Other than this one last point, I believe we are absolutely on the same page.

Cheers and best wishes to you up there in Alaska this winter.
Man I hate cold weather, so you can have it!

Oh and one last thought. My bucket list has at least one unfinished item, as far as backpacking goes, an area in which I have absolutely no training whatsoever, and that's an ECW trip. Yeah I know I said I hate the cold, and I've done some winter camping in the Rockies, with friends, where I've never strayed more than 100 yards from camp. But a winter trip to the Yukon, or another continent would definetly be cool. I was actually searching the web for somebody that does that kind of training or trips.

I think it would be more of a challange than even the hottest day in the sand, jungle or woods.

We'll see.

Jim

You make a good point, Lori, about dehydration altering one's ability to think and make good decisions. Hypothermia is notorious for this, too. If you allow yourself to get to the point where your mind is malfunctioning, then no amount of survival training will do you a bit of good.

Sometimes, sadly, experienced and highly trained individuals become overly confident of their ability and forget some of the most basic truths about how not to put themselves into a survival situation. In my opinion, easily AVOIDABLE situations account for a hundred SAR events for every one where the person is fully prepared, alert to dangers and proceeds with caution, yet everything goes to heck in spite of that. Such rare events seems to be more akin to what the original poster wants to discuss.

Sometimes the best survival skill is knowing when to stop, reconsider, change plans and bail out.

Great post, aimless--I agree 100%!

Awhile back, Lori mentioned Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies. It really addresses the mental aspects of survival and addresses the two main issues on the thread. Avoiding trouble and getting out of trouble.

Another book I got was NOLS Wilderness Navigation. I wasn't so satisfied with this one as I didn't feel a person could learn the information without a pretty good knowledge of it before. That's probably the right level for many in NOLS and I did get some good tips.

Another book I read was "Never Get Lost (aka Green Beret's Compass Course." The problem with this method is it involved plotting vectors and pretty soon you run out of room.

Orienteering can't be learned without field work, so I did a lot of it. Finally I tossed both these methods out and learned to navigate using just a compass and 2 sets of Ranger beads. From there, adding a map is simple. All the math can be done in your head with practice.

I just bought the Army and Marine winter survival books for Kindle. They are just $0.99 apiece.

I think I'm starting to get a better sense of what Jbylake is suggesting. I'm not in agreement with the concept of "everything going bad" just because my mind doesn't work that way. But things can sometimes get a little inconvenient. Often knowing a little trick can turn an inconvenience into just another adventure.

If the thread transitions from general to specific, we may stumble on some good advice or dispel some myths.

Let's look at the problem of getting water. My stomping grounds are the Colorado mountains, so I'll make it specific to there, but the techniques may work in other places.

From about 1/2 hour before sunrise until about 1/2 hour after, dew is the heaviest on our tents. We can wipe that dew off and get some water. Thinking ahead, we can lay our footprint out next to the tent. In a situation where water is critical, pitching the tent in an open low spot will likely result in more dew on the tent. The place with the most bugs is a good candidate.

Often there are brief rainstorms during the night. If short on water, it pays to know where the water runs off the tent. Place a container below that spot before it rains. You might have to dig a little hole. I always carry a coffeecan to carry water to put out fires, to wash clothes and for a marine bath. If you don't have a container, put a shirt or something in the spot and wring out the shirt into something you have. After a brief rainstorm, there are almost always little hollows on the top of big rocks that have water. Many times these only last for an hour or two after sunrise.

Many times I've seen posts on this forum that mention melting snow for water, yet I've never seen a post on how to melt snow. If it's above freezing, you can put a little water in the bottom of a pot, fill it with snow, and stir it with a stick, but that sounds like too much work.

I've been reading the Marine Winter Survival Course Handbook. They suggest making a water generator. Just fill a bag or a shirt with snow packing it as hard as possible. Then hang it in the sun. If you have a black plastic bag, this can be done well below freezing in the sun. Then put a container under it to catch drips. Four cups of packed snow will make about one cup of water.

Looking at my gear, filling the arms of my rain jacket with snow and hanging it in the sun would likely work. Tie the sleeves so the hole is smaller.

If you use white snow, according to the survival manual the water doesn't need to be filtered. However, if you melt ice it does need to be filtered.

If you are hiking, another method is to put snow in a Ziploc bag and put it between layers. Obvious warnings about hypotermia apply.

If you can find a moist spot, dig a hole down to where it gets more moist. Lay your footprint over the hole securing it with rocks around the sides. Put a little rock in the middle and place a cup under the rock. The water will drip down into the cup. This has to be done in a sunny spot. Often a stream bed will still be moist a few inches down. This method usually doesn't get a lot of water.

These are methods that should be practiced before they are needed. They can be passed on by example. I'd hate to start a survival class on a group hike as it would likely start a riot. But if I do it without comment, someone might ask about it.

Researching water sources is one of the first things I do when planning. It lets you know how much you have to carry.

A friend once hiked from Death Valley to the top of Whitney. He spent days before the actual trip putting water caches in place, and they hiked in the desert at night instead of through the day. Pre-planning and knowing what they faced = success.

All true - but the ratio of poor planning to random act of bad luck is pretty interesting. The vast majority of our searches are for people with "experience" in the outdoors without real experience, and the search comes as a result of no planning and lots of assumptions and bad decisions.

Misfortunes do happen, but less often when you can get people to understand that climbing (mountaineering, not walking up a hill on a trail) is not a good solo activity no matter how much experience you have. And the vast majority of the searches we've had monthly have been folks underestimating water - which is really telling, since this is such a dry year and most of our rivers (Kings, San Joaquin, etc) are nothing close to their usual flow. Two kids died in the Merced below Vernal Falls - it's trickling compared to its usual. Most of the water rescues could totally be avoided if people were more careful, but that would mean awareness that they are not exempt from the warnings - OMG, why would that apply to us? I can swim!

Awareness always always helps. It helps you not do stupid things that lead to bad decisions. It's why there is a stapler in my car and a little pile of laminated signs talking about the ten essentials and precautions for hikers. NOT DOING THINGS YOU CAN'T DO requires that you understand they are beyond you. Awareness is the first step and sometimes the ONLY step you can reasonably expect Joe Public to take.

We are not going to get every person who attends the SAR presentations we have at REI to go out and learn how to self arrest. We MIGHT prevent them from going on a 60 mile four day backpacking trip without first going on a 10 mile, single night one to figure out how to work all the gear, stay dry, etc. because we can raise their awareness level that backpacking isn't just throwing junk in a sack and go. (20 year old male clause applies.)

We are NEVER going to keep the unexpected from happening, but we can make people aware of the possibilities and that they need to avoid certain things that increase the risk of broken bones, falls, drownings, etc - so that's what we do. No reasonable person can expect to completely eliminate risk, but there's good odds that nothing will happen. As the Gonzalez book Deep Survival points out, sometimes an expert is someone who makes the same mistake every time and never reaps the consequences. It isn't hard to make dumb mistakes and get off scott free - taking food into Yosemite without a bear can, building massive fires every night, free climbing randomly up stuff solo - people have done this and not paid the price. Other people do things wrong and they don't get in trouble or hurt, and so become convinced they won't have to pay attention, the park rangers are just paranoid, etc. I'm sure the experienced backpacker who died on Whitney four seasons ago had managed to survive poor hydration many many times, but that one trip he not only became dehydrated but hypothermic and confused, went the wrong way, fell into an altered state, and succumbed. I've been dehydrated lots of times, once very seriously to the point of an altered state. I try like nobody's business to avoid it each time and still struggle with it.

Awareness of the reality of things doesn't come easy to folks who just want to go backpacking. They will be afraid of bears but not respectful of water crossings. I go all the time with newbies - I'm taking my backpacking class out this weekend. And I can tell you that what's between their ears is the key to it all. You can talk skills all the live long day but you can't make them buy into the notion that they need to be able to light a fire with wet materials just in case - "I check the weather report before I go. I'll take fire paste. I'll just get in my sleeping bag."

It's a hard, hard sell to a leisure backpacker who will go once a year because the odds are actually really in their favor that nothing will go wrong. We really do not have a lot of folks get in trouble. One out of a thousand, maybe.

Extreme environments like desert or winter conditions in the mountains will have a minimal margin for error - and I'll bet folks get into trouble at a higher rate in the desert than in winter. People don't like being cold. Our winter efforts tend to be focused on the area around the ski resort or on roads where snowmobile enthusiasts travel.

Some good posts here. I do have a hard time envisioning a scenario when "everything goes completely bad all at once."

My experience is that things usually go badly one or two at a time. Real preparation is not so much a question of being prepared for when everything falls apart completely, but in making sure that when ONE thing goes wrong, you become extra careful and cautious so that none of your subsequent decisions make things any worse.

Often when you analyze an event, you find that a succession of "bad" decisions (viewed in hindsight) led to misfortune. Alter one or two choices, and the bad outcome could easily be averted. And I can recall many situations where I personally did not continue to make dumb decisions, but got enough right to live till the day when I could post on the internet.

I've done a lot of Googling on hiking accidents. Falls are by far the number one cause. Many are in areas where simple precautions would have prevented them. The next cause seems to be falls near water near falls.

Flash floods are seemingly the second cause, but only because they tend to take a lot of people at once.

Rescues are a little harder to determine as only dramatic ones seem to make the news. There are a lot of people calling for help on cell phones after getting lost. But the primary cause of rescues seems to be injuries after falls.

There are a lot of avalanche deaths each year in Colorado. I put these in a simple category to avoid. Learn about avalanche conditions and then don't go there.

Jbylake seems to want to go to the next level. After reading about fatalities and incidents, I'd say the first thing to emphasis to a person new to hiking and backpacking is DON'T GO PLACES YOU MIGHT FALL FROM.

The first layer of safety will probably prevent 80% of problems. The last 20% is more difficult.

I'm not saying people shouldn't learn about hypothermia, dehydration, heat stroke, bear safety, etc. Maybe emphasis on these have kept people out of trouble.

No can do oldranger. In my younger day, I could drop and give you a hundred. Nowdays, well I think I might be able to drop, without breaking something....Yep, and since my bithplace and residence since 1998 has been KY, I should have known the differnce bettween "park and forest". Man am I red faced.

To the rest of you...thanks for all of the interesting replies.
Interesting conversation.

Maybe I have poor written communciations skills. At first I got the notion that some of you made the inference that I was stating that if you didn't have the skills of a S.E.A.L., Ranger, Combat Controller, Green Beret...etc..etc..then you shouldn't be backpacking. Nor do I believe the years of survival training, we were always practicing our skills anytime we were in the field, or SAR, or other related field was a requirement, as well. That was never my intent, and I think as the thread grew, people started seeing where I was going with the thread. (However, one reply, something to the effect that a 125 pound geek, could outsurvive a 200 lb "Macho Man, sheerely based on the "geek's" superior intellect, kind of befuddled me). Machismo was never injected by me, and during my military day's I couldn't break 169 to save my life .
Anyway, since this forum has no real "Introduce your thread", it was a good opportunity to "meet" many of you.
I could still debate the point endlessly, but I think enough people shared their different points of view, that it was a well rounded conversation, that has come full circle.

Thanks for all of your input.

Cheers,
J.

It's good topic that's worth bringing up.

I like Gershon's observation about falls and flash floods. Those are probably the two biggest gotchas around here. People ignore warnings about rising rivers and getting too close to a cliff's edge all the time here, and they pay for it.

And I like the resurgence in interest in bush crafting skills and techniques. I'm lucky to have access to forest land where I can play with and practice them, and we're all lucky to be able to share them like we can now.

Here's a diversion:

Imagine getting caught out in an ice storm. I know what I would do, depending on my options, but after having been through a few doozies now (while safe inside the house) I can tell you that's a tough scenario.

I don't know of anyone who's been caught out backpacking in an ice storm, or any "Survivor" show that's addressed that one, but if there's a special skill for that I'd sure like to know about it.

Jbylake...

My guess is that it was your choice in using the term "survivalist" that caught people sideways. It usually implies that someone intentionally sets out to "overcome" the environment or "threat" as opposed to "being prepared" for worst-case scenarios. You don't need survival training to have a "survival" mentality. Surviving an adverse event on a backpacking trip is, as so many people have mentioned, all about being mentally prepared. It doesn't hurt to work through "worst case scenarios" and practice skills like route finding, water finding, fire building, shelter building, and general panic control. Also, I believe OM and Lori both mentioned having a "Plan B" or "bailout plan", which is such simple and yet profound advice. Also, taking a Wilderness First Responder or even Wilderness EMT course sure is a great way to learn how things can go south fast, but also learn what to do about it. There are probably many many people, however, who never bother to think through the worst case scenarios, and they are the ones the SAR groups end up looking for.

MNS (who is headed back up to AK - to live - in a couple of weeks)

I sort of anticipated that. In the very first post, I stated in the first line or so, that I wasn't referring to someone hunkered down in a bunker with 10 years of food, and 100 thousand rounds of ammo. Unfortunately, as on any forum, as the threads grow, people jump in at some point in the middle.
I think this was the case, and my mentioning that I did 20 years in the military, probably just aggrivated that situation more.

Thanks,
J.

Seriously off topic here, but did you land a position up in AK, Andie?

Yep, back at the hospital I used to work at, but this time I'll be in the cath lab instead of dispatching medevacs. I miss my old job, but I like my new profession too.

MNS

I realized that as I did read your initial post, however, from experience I would suggest that any time you feel you have to caveat your post up front it is a good clue that maybe you need to alter your presentation to begin with. Also, you are right, some people will jump in on page 4, or respond to someone elses response without fully reading the initial posts, or others may just skim posts and not spend the time trying to discern context. This is generally a friendly forum, but we all work pretty hard here to have the friendliness, and any perceived threat to that will put people on the defensive.

MNS

Yeah, I goofed that one up..my apologies to all.
J.

Don't worry--you have made excellent contributions here! One problem with the term "survivalist" is that it has come to mean either ad-hoc "militia" groups in camouflage armed to the teeth or unrealistic TV programs like Bear Gryllis, neither of which have much to do with lightweight backpacking. (My apologies to fans of such programs!) Our main interest--and obviously yours, judging from your follow-up posts--is in being able to cope with emergencies that may arise during a hiking or backpacking trip. I'm sure (at least I hope!) that we're all "in" to that!

Interesting topic. I have not had any formal training. I was in the military, and even spent some time in Iraq. I wasn't anything special, so received no special training. Lately, however, I have been doing the same thing I do here, but on the topic of survival and bushcraft, basically that means I belong to a few forums under those topics and participate in them about what I participate here. You can learn a lot from the internet. I also go and practice skills to hopefully become more proficient. Bushcraft and Backpacking seem to be two different topics, although there are a lot of bushcrafters who backpack. I believe that you can take the good of each and make something better.
In August, I took my boy scouts on a wilderness survival campout where they built their own shelters. Last month, we practiced making fire without matches.
Survival is something that both have in common, although they talk about it differently, and sometimes have different approaches. There are a few skills I think every backpacker should have, regardless if they actually ever need to use it. Here is my list of skills:
First aid
fire starting
shelter making
land navigation
signalling

I think your list is just about right for anyone.

J.

Re Who Lives And Who Dies.
A mate that has survived a few situations (falling into water by himself at -40f was one...) that would have killed most gave me that book to read.
Very interesting and yes it makes perfect sense.
Not reccomended for the ego of the Rambo types..

BTW, if not mentioned already, keeping an eye of where birds fly to around sunset may lead you to water.

Your post kind of got off to the wrong start - people here are REAL testy about stuff like low impact and ultra light and leave no trace and stuff and consider backpacking almost an artform or a form of meditation, a way of slippng in and out of the wilderness unseen, etc etc.

Frankly a huge number of them have absolutely no survival skills that would be of benefit in the event of total social melt down and they don't like to think about stuff like that, so no - very few people here even have food two weeks supply of water and fuel in their homes. Or a plan...

So nope - not many survivalists here...

We could use one of those vote thingys but we wouldn't get an accurate count since unprepared people wouldn't admit to it.
Jim

Surviving in the woods, has very little to do with low impact.
I can go through the heaviest stuff, and not leave a bit of a clue as to the fact that I was there. We trained in the military for that, but for a different reason. You don't want to leave a trail for the enemy to follow you.

A lot of that, if not all of it will apply to a backpacker/hiker. I'd be willing to challenge all but the most experinced SAR/Former Military, etc..to find me, by following my trail/tracks.

That being said, I was refering to survival skills in case of an emergency on the trail. Many think that "planning" will keep you good and safe from anything. It will, if planning includes knowing how to find food, water, shelter, orienteering, etc..etc..but I get the feeling that a few think that all of this is unecessary.

Let me give you an idea of what can really go wrong. I've experienced many things gone awry, but this one is directly related to backpacking/hiking.

I got permission from land owners to hike a trail that had for years been used primarily to herd sheep, by an Amish group.
Part of the property belonged to a friend, and part by the Amish.

I first took the time to let my friend know, as well as the Amish know, where I'd be, and how long. It could be done in a day or so, but I told them to give me 3 days, as I wanted to take my time, and camp along the way.

I was hiking (in the Clark Range mountains) in Tennesse, on a path that varied from 2 to 4 feet wide. Should have been so easy a child could do it, if he/she could handle some fairly steep grades. Other than that, an untrained monkey could have handled it. Until...as I was traveling through an easy section, nearly 4 feet wide, I took a step, and my whole world went upside down. Later I would find out that a very large rock had fell out of the ground, under the trail, and I essentially stepped on a "bridge" with about 4 inches of dirt to support me. I never knew what hit me, and I went head over hills down the side of a mountain. I sustained numerous injuries, most obvious, broke off two front teeth (now sporting caps) a broken nose, a couple of bad and bleeding cuts, (later, after x-ray's) seven total broken ribs, and a badly sprained ankle.

The worse part was, that I knew that no one would be looking for me for at least 2 more days.

Fortunately there was a cold running spring, and materials for cover ( I lost most of my meager suppplies with my pack, up the hill). I managed to cauterise one of the worse cuts (still have the scars to prove it), and to keep a long story short, was able to withstand the elements, keep myself warm, hydrated, and fed with some candy bars, granola bars, lighters, for fire, and a knife, all of which survived in the cargo compartments of some BDU's I was wearing. I kept the swelling down in my ankle, by alternating it in and out of a cold creek. This story goes on ad nauseam, but aside from being in great pain, my friends came looking for me and found me. Next part of journey was to a hospital. But this was a three day adventure that I didn't enjoy, but was easily survivable, even though I had "planned" the trip. So if anyone ever thinks that "planning" can get them out of any situation, or that planning would keep them away from dangerous situations, they might rethink. This was a trip that a brand new to the lifestyle, hiker should have had no trouble with. Oh, I forgot to mention that the place was ripe with snakes, both rattler's and copperheads.

So I don't argue with those who think that hiking over a well worn path doesn't post dangers. I does no good.

As for the survivalist part, as in the guy's hunkered down in a bunker, well I do a little of that myself. However, I'm not in it for armeggedon, the Mayan calender, a great civil war, or total economic collapse (although the last, economic collapse, could possibly happen). I actually stock a walled off section of the basement with enough stuff to last about 2 weeks. This is because I live in an area where tornado's are common, and this is my greatest concern. We had an F4 last spring that missed my sister's house my a couple of hundred yards, hit a housing subdivison which caused terrible damage, crosse an interstate, tore out a wooded area, hit several more homes, destroying them, and some barns and other structures. One woman was found several day's later by a farmer surveying dead livestock on his property. She had her car lifted and thrown, killing her. No one was looking for her, as she was from out of town, lived alone, and wasn't missed. So, I have enough stuff to get me by in case I'm shut in my shelter, until rescue arrives. BTW which took the people in the subdivision a while because so many homes were it, it took rescue/fire/police, quite a while to search all the homes for injured, trapped or dead people, and to mark them cleared.

But I'm getting away from backpacking/hiking emergency survival. But even the most "testy" person, might want to be able to have the materials to start a fire that might leave a trace in the wilderness, if they were too injured to move too far, and needed the expertise to survive until help came.

That was what I was getting at. Heck, if people want to go so natural as to take off on a 50K hike with nothing more than their underwear for clothing and shelter, and baggies on their feet for footwear, more power to them, and their "planning", and so forth. Yes, this thread did go a bit south, I think because people envisioned me as being a "Rambo" type, but I was particularly intersted in "emergency" situations that can happen when you would very least expect it, in the most hospitable trails or woods that you can experience. And that was all.

J.

Here I am in the High Sierra.

There are no trees, no animals other than birds, pika and marmots. Since it's fall the latter two are all bedded down and ready for winter under the tons of granite around me.

Let's say I'm daft enough to go out here miles from anywhere without anyone knowing where I am, and have no one with me, and am immobilized.

What survival skills can rescue me? Oh wait - I should have PLANNED and left a note for my family that I was going. I should have taken someone with me to go for help when the ton of granite slab fell on my leg. I maybe could have carried some extra water to stay alive for the couple of days it will take him to go find a helicopter. Because that little tarn is dry over there, the grass is all dead and growing in decomposed granite - not the world's best substance for digging out "mud" to hope for a pool of water. And that stupid grass won't burn long enough to keep me warm as the temps drop to 10F.

That stupid ol' planning - no one needs THAT.

The reason search and rescue hammers away at things like planning your trip, knowing about things like water sources, the risks that exist where you are going, being aware and avoiding needing survival skills in the first place - it is UNREASONABLE to expect the average urban worker who might backpack two or three times in a decade to develop fire building, shelter building, etc. Skills.

It is more reasonable to expect them to take steps that do not require lots of time and energy on their part - simply because that is what is more likely to actually happen.

That I am continually having to help people set up REI tents and teach them how to use stoves does not instill a lot of faith that actual survival skills would be within some people's abilities. You are preaching to the choir here - I believe survival skills are important. However, experience teaches me that it won't happen Unless the person has a motivation to put effort in, and a good ninety percent of backpacker just don't.

Lori, you are always so logical...Sigh.

Actually, I love sitting in a campgroung watching people set up their tents. A nice cold drink in hand, and it's hard to find better entertainment. After about 15-20 minutes, I usually go over and say hi.

And yeah, if they ask for help, I give it to them. It's only fair for the grins they have given me.

That's an interesting observation. Is this your experience because of the classes you lead or your SAR work (or both)?

Most of the backpackers I run into here are fairly well skilled and prepared. We don't have many SAR incidents here that I know of, at least not for backpackers. I could see how that might not be the case out West. I don't know about the East though, I suppose the AT gets their share like that.

I don't think there's anything special about Ozarker's backpacking, it's just not a "trendy" thing to do here, so most that do backpack here are involved in outdoor recreation and familiar with outdoor skills, and not many tourists actually come here to backpack like they do out West. In fact, I'd venture to guess that most those here with little experience and skill head out West to backpack (so you get to deal with them ).

People from all over the world head to California to backpack. People from all over California show up on our trails locally - I talked to a number of folks last weekend who drove more than 200 miles from San Francisco to backpack five miles to a lake off Kaiser Pass. I also talked to some hunters and randomly met four members of my 2,000 member hiking group. I was merely rambling out overnight on a whim myself.

You can bet that I have gotten really really tired of explaining to people what the 10 essentials are and why we look for more day hikers than we do backpackers, and why we end up looking for "experienced" backpackers quite a bit more than one would expect. It is easy to make the same mistakes over and over without serious consequence. People can get wet or blistered or delayed here, even stay out overnight unprepared, and the Sierra Nevada can forgive until next time.

However, we do, every great once in a while, have to identify bones we find while on searches for other people. People do not always tell anyone where they are going, so putting together such puzzles is in the realm of genetic testing these days.

I'd guess that it's one in five hundred or so that will really get stuck out there (or lost) and need rescue. We have a lot of search callouts, two or three per month for hikers from early spring through fall - this is still remarkably few given we are often called for mutual aid searches in three of the most tourist-ridden parks in the national park system.

Still not enough that your average businessman who goes backpacking on a lark will say, hey - I really need to know how to build a fire before I go. Most of them say "eh, I've got matches" and figure it's that simple, and since you are not able to whip out a credential or diploma that says you know more than they do, "I know what I'm doing." They always do until they don't.

Lori, we used to get called out occasionally (military) to assist SAR and Sherriff's department search the desert for missing backpackers. Found one body just a few hundred yards, well actually the Sherriffs Helo found it, just as we were showing up in a Jolly Green, from a house and highway. We were asked if we could backtrack the trail, and determine what happened. No problem. The person did absolutely everything wrong. That's about how we summed it up for the Old Man, slang for the Commander, who in turn faxed our findings to the Sherriff's department.
(It'd be a long story to go into it all, but the deceased, had they had the proper survival skills, could have easily survived. Instead someones life was wasted, and all those families, and others affected by the death of a loved one. One year, '80's, we got so many assist calls, that I almost lost track of my humanity, and developed pretty much a "tough ****" attitude". I recovered, but I was so sick of helping recover bodies, which wasn't my job anyway, that it was hard to feel sorry for the backpackers/hikers who were killed, by arrogance and ignorance. We too found remains of a skeleton, that we weren't even looking for, but to be honest, the Riverside County Sheriff was looking into that one as a possible homocide and body dump, we never heard anything else about it. So Pika's and Marmots aside, coupound factures, concussions, and a 1000 other things can hurt people unexpectedly, who ponder their security while sitting on granite. But hey, at least they "planned", I think.....Heck, when were you working with a SAR? Maybe we crossed paths?
J.

You're talking around the basic fact that people who do the best they can to mitigate risks are going to stand a better chance if something does happen. What you are calling "survival skills" is what I think of as plain ol' common sense - why the F would you leave home, drive 100 miles up a country road, park, hike another 10 - 100 miles, and do all of it without even thinking about the fact that you can't run to the pharmacy, the hospital or call for help?

Planning is ALWAYS the first step. You have to plan... to learn survival skills! You have to think about things to buy into the notion that you need survival skills. You have to WORK TOO HARD to maintain compass and map skills, knot tying, fire building skills - it takes TOO MUCH PLANNING and too much work to maintain those skills, if you only go backpacking once a year. You have to do more than walk up to Half Dome with half a liter of water, wearing flip flops, all 16 miles on granite steps and steep hills - you have to understand what you're up against and get ready for it. People don't understand why that kind of effort is needed - it's just walking, isn't it?

"Survival Skills" in the sense of fire building, etc. are useful, but as I have said repeatedly - people don't understand what that means either. And you won't get them to understand if they think they have what it takes. You are saying survival skills are necessary but not planning - interesting that your way takes much, much more forethought and work than simply leaving an itinerary, huh?

Please answer the original question of what survival skills I would use surrounded by granite for miles. It would probably illustrate the point for you that different skills belong in different environments. I doubt you could last long without some preparation for the task. Not really any way to build a fire with just rocks.

I have been and continue to be a SAR volunteer in Fresno County. Am sadly missing a call out tonight - not for a hiker, but for a Yosemite employee. The information is posted on the Conservancy blog. She was NOT backpacking, day hiking, or anything. And yet she is missing. Sometimes there is no way to prepare at all. Signing on to work at a luxury hotel doesn't require navigation skills.

This post is directed towards the OP, jbylake.

From my perspective I have no idea why Lori bothers continuing "this" discussion. It doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. You, jbylake, HAVE added to this forum, but this thread is not a good example of that. Lori's point of leaving an itinerary being probably the most important thing you can do should be underlined. jbylake, in your example of what happened to you, which was very unfortunate of course, did you leave an itinerary? Or at least tell people what you were going to do? It seems to me you were very lucky if you did not tell anybody. You were lucky anyway that you were not injured even more seriously.

I might be the only one here who thinks this way, but what would make this an interesting thread is REAL INFORMATION. That guy who died in sight of homes or a highway who did a million things wrong; list the top 4. Or 2, or just the worst. Git a real discussion going. Some of the best info presented here was Finallyme's list of things to think about in a survival situation. One of the most interesting reads out there is the annual Accidents in North American Mountaineering; that's got some real info/analysis in it. But up to now, I really have no idea what you want out of this thread; its a total mystery to me. And I do understand survival techniques btw.

This is not meant to be a personal attack or anything so please do not take it that way. If you don't like my suggestions, I will not have hurt feelings, but I will also will not be joining in on the discussion either.

Sincerely, Chris

ps In a survival situation, your best tool is your brain. That is why I always carry extra, just in case.



Don't take yourself so serious, people.

I don't take myself too seriously. I take safety seriously, or I would never have bothered to volunteer - it costs a lot of money to volunteer for SAR, a lot of training, and a lot of studying.

I am assuming your post was directed at me. The situation was entirely hypothetical - I NEVER go cross country hiking in the alpine by myself. I do not assume any rock is stable (the big ones do move) and I won't take the risks other people do, repeatedly. I DO know that people frequently go solo, and hope that they are blessed with the good sense to be adequately prepared for it, or to come back anyway. The majority of the time, it's easy to go out without a clue and come back still without a clue.

I post because this is the internet and I'm aware that many more read than post. If you want to claim survival skills are necessary, give specifics and info on where you would use one or the other, and why.

I cannot and will not post specifics on searches without permission, because doing so will get any volunteer (or sworn deputy for that matter) in a world of trouble. Our SAR team respects the privacy of the folks we rescue and also the policy of the law enforcement agency we work with to not divulge information on the activities of the sheriff's department. If you want specifics on searches there are a variety of accounts on some search team pages. There is a very good thread on High Sierra Topix written and posted by one of our recent search subjects, who was stuck in Tehipite Valley and received a helicopter ride to safety with us.

Actually no, Lori, its' directed towards the OP, jbylake. I'm fine with your posts. I'm sorry, but I apparently really suck at this forum communication stuff.

I will work on the clarity

Chris

note; I edited previous post. Hopefully that clears things up. Gotta get to work!

I guess I am frustrated because this COULD be an interesting thread packed with knowledge.

My opinion of course.

Chris

I think this has been a pretty interesting discussion. Lori's offered a scenario of a difficult situation that even a very skilled survivalist would be seriously challenged with. I think I mentioned ice storms.

Both of these situations could be easily avoided with good planning. While mine is not very likely for a hiker to encounter, Lori's is almost commonplace out West.

But I agree that the conversation would be more helpful if took a turn towards focusing on the practical and technique as well as real life experiences. I think Lori's tried to do that with her scenario. I'll try too...

The way I see it is, there are probably two major categories you can use for backpackers; Those who have taken the time to learn how to plan and hone skills, and those who haven't. Here, the vast majority of backpackers are in the former, but not out West. Lori's confirmed what I suspected, there are many more once a year types that head out there, and many more tourist types that head out for the first time.

Planning by the book, so to speak, is all good until your plans tank out on you. If you have skills you might be able to adapt, but skills with no plan won't always bail you out, Lori's scenario demonstrates that pretty well.

Honestly, I don't have a good plan for ice storms, or even the more common vicious thunderstorms we get here where straight-line winds and downburst can hit 60-70 mph and tear up a mature forest. My only plan is to avoid being out there when that happens. If that fails, I suppose I'd try to find some big rocks or ledges to hunker down in, but thunderstorms moving at 40+mph don't give you a lot of time to do even that. Your only chance in an ice storm is to get out, and the longer you dawdle at that the worse it will be for you.

Part of my plan is to keep a very close eye on the weather forecast when I'm out there, and that has saved my butt more times than I can count. Two years ago a buddy and I got out about 10-12 hours before a nasty ice storm hit where we were backpacking in the Ozark NF. We hiked back to my car and drove to a high point to get a phone signal so I could check the forecast while he called his wife. Had we not done that, and stayed where we were, even if we could have made it to our car the next day we would have been stuck for a week or more, and we were not well prepared for that.

This is why I carry my cell phone, how I use it, and why I consider it an essential piece of gear. It's not perfect, but when it works it is an amazing tool. The "Plan" should always include not using your survival skills out of need.

On a even more practical level, learning how to fall is a survival skill that is worth considering and honing. I slip and fall every time I go bushwhacking, it's just a part of traversing the forests here. Jim's brought that up a few times and talked about ice ax techniques, but even the more common slip and stumble type falls can be dangerous and there are techniques to lesson that.

When I was young we hung out with a friend who was a stuntman. He taught my brothers and I how to fall, and while that may sound silly, it's not. It's a skill you can learn. The object is to avoid breaking bones and serious injury with some level of control, and that doesn't mean it won't hurt. For example, you don't want to land on the palm of your hand with your arm extended straight, and it's better to slide with and into a fall than tumble, and it's better to tuck your head in and roll while landing on your back shoulder than on your head. It takes a bit of practice to get to the point where it's intuitive, but it's pretty much like riding a bike after you've got it down. Football players are really good at falling down, and you can see those techniques in practice by watching them

You are probably right Bill. Lets just say I was hoping for a different discussion direction given the title of the thread. It IS 6 pages long and growing. No worries.

As far as planning; if you haven't planned, you shouldn't even be out there. That's at the start of backpacking 101.

If you had read the post, you would see that I did notify both the land owner, and the Amish folks, who owned the adjoining property, where I was going, and when to expect me back. That's why I knew, or hoped anyway, they'd come looking for me.
Also, I could type for an hour, and someone would have came back and said if that person that died had planned properly, nothing would have ever happened.

Lori, WTF?, really, Now we're at WTF? I never, ever mentioned that planning for a trip was not necessary, as a matter of fact that should be the first thing someone should be doing, depending on the trip, a day to weeks ahead of time. No one ever said that planning for a trip wasn't necessary. My point was, and I won't repeat it again, because some here seem quite offended by it, is, that you can plan until the end of times. But what happens when your plan fails? Can the person deal with it? In the example I gave with my own fall, Although there wasn't much to plan for, it was, as I said, a very simple trip, that didn't require much planning. Food, water, shelter, etc..and notifying folks where I was going and when I'd be back. Heck, all I was essentially doing was walking a sheep herding trail around a mountain to a valley at the top, which I was told was spectacular, with a stop over each night.

Planning, didn't include fortune telling however. All of the planning in the world wouldn't have told me that the earth had given out from under a 3 to 4 foot section wide path, and that I would step on what was now, a "natural" bridge of about 4 inches to a foot of dirt.

I really don't get what part of this either Irk's people, or makes people think that I don't think planning is important. The only point I was trying to make, actually not even that, I just was curious how many people knew what to do, when even the best plans went awry.

skcreidc, as to your comment about what said person did wrong, well that would take a few pages of discussion which I'm not going to go into. Having said that, that person was a United States Marine, from a nearby Marine post, and should have had the survival skills to have lived, especially due to the fact that, said Marine's camp was in the middle of the desert.

So, to sum up, without someone blowing their top:
A. plan for your trip (seems everyone here agrees upon that)
B. Know your limitations (part of planing)
C. If the absolutely unexpected rears it's ugly head, can you deal with it.?

Enough said, on my part. Didn't ever intend on offending anyone, or starting a heated discussion. My only intention was to see who had the survival skills, or even thought they were even important enough to bother with, to survive, when the best laid plans go horribly wrong.

Lori, I'm a little taken back by your "F?" (question?). So, being a SAR volunteer, maybe a little reflection on some of the rescues you've been on, where the worse happened, and it became a recovery, rather than a search, could it have been survivable, had the person had the skills to survive? Granted, some accidents are not survivable, say, falling off a 200 foot cliff, headlong.

And I'm not referring to day hikes with kids, on flat earth, where you'd meet 30 or 40 people on a well marked trail, stop for a PB&J, then meander on back to camp. This probably isn't even the forum for people who do this kind of thing once every three or four years.

My interest, and original question is primarily intended for those who are going on tough trek, for days, maybe even longer, where help, no matter how well you planned, might not even bother looking for you, until you're itinerary say's you're a day or two over due for your return.

I don't know of a single case, where someone plans to die. I'm a living example of what happens, when you do plan, and still have a catastrophic event occur. And, I'd like to add, that it wasn't my only close call, but enough about that.

Skedric, from my perspective, nobody has been forced into continuing "this" discussion. Not trying to stir a stinking pile of pooh, here, and never intended to.

You know what I do, when I read something that I don't want to discuss, or look at? I just go onto the next thread...and also, Skedrick maybe you should actually read the threads. At no point did I ever say that leaving an itenerary was not necessary, or foolish, or anything else. I can't even see where I've ever disagreed with Lori. I sense that you're a bit upset that I posted it at all, with your "perspective that you have no idea whay Lori bother's continuing this thread". Do you actually think I'm baiting her? Are you kidding? That's the inference I get.

So let's ALL, calm down, take a deep breath, and take this thread for what it started as, a simple question. Nothing more.
And just let the thread die a natural death. I really love this forum, especially for the short time I've been here, and would never intentionally post or state something just to, what's the term, "flame bait", or whatever you call it.
J.

The difference between people who survive and people who don't is not a matter of survival skills. It's a matter of planning (YES IT IS possible to decrease risk by learning about where you are going, what's likely to happen, and what you're likely to need while you are there and in the event something goes wrong - this is extremely specific to environment a lot of the time) AND MORE THAN THAT attitude - the difference between survival and not surviving is a choice the person makes when things go wrong.

Read "Deep Survival" and you will understand more completely that there is no way on earth to completely keep yourself safe - you don't know how you will react til you are in it.

What you do more than anything else is NOT PANIC. It's sometimes (most of the time) that simple.

Skills don't seem to make a difference - and you need to quantify "skill" because "experienced hikers" die all the time. One of my first callouts was an oldster who'd backpacked all his life in the Sierra who died sitting on a rock in Whitney (this was in the papers). He'd avoided hypothermia all his life and then, there he was, off his itinerary, wandering confused, his last contact with anyone some hikers he told he was going north on the JMT (he was going the opposite direction). In true hypothermia-dazed fashion he ignored their course correction and went off to sit a ways from his fully loaded backpack and die.

To fully bullet-proof yourself:

Don't go alone. Go with people who know what the symptoms of hypothermia and dehydration (they are similar) are so when you start down the road of Stupid Addle Brained Decisions they force you to stop and get warm/hydrated.

Don't go unprepared - know where water sources are, if they are uncertain, carry enough to get out and back again if the first one doesn't prove out... know the specific risks for the area and mitigate them.

Don't go without navigation. Have a map. Knowing how to read it well enough sometimes lets you get away without a compass, but have the map.

Leave an itinerary.


The top killers in Yosemite are rocks and water. There are more water rescues (recoveries, more than 90% of the time) by far than any other kind, in general. Water crossings kill hikers sometimes. Falling off rocks kills climbers, mostly, but also claims hikers.

To quote "Lost Person Behavior": Being overdue accounts for 16% of search incidents. Hikers are often delayed because of poor estimates of fitness/travel time, lack of light, and blisters, especially if carrying heavy packs or hiking for the first time (or first time in a long time). Many hikers discard equipment when lost or in trouble. Many lack skills for remote areas.

If found within 24 hours, 97% of those searched for are found alive. This drops to 76% after 24 hours, and drops to 60% after 48 hours.

The best thing to do, if you are lost and unable to determine with some certainty where you are/which way to go, is STOP. (If you left an itinerary.) Conserve resources and energy. Put out a poncho or brightly colored item, set up the tent (there's a reason Sequoia NP asks what color your tent is when you pick up the permit - helicopters look for them), and if you see other people signal them. (You'd be surprised, but sometimes people do not.)

In scenarios accounted for by (somewhat old) statistics: 68% of search subjects got lost, 16% were overdue, 7% incurred some sort of trauma, 4% were somehow stranded, and 2% had medical issues. 1% will evade search teams (fugitives or mentally ill).

The most appalling gaps in skills with hikers is in navigation. Time and time again, I instruct people attending the hikes I lead to have maps, and even provide links, and explain that even hiking in a group you need a map. They don't bring one. Three times now I have come upon groups searching for a missing member of their party while just out hiking for fun.

"Planning" to be lost? Sure! Plan to pay attention to landmarks, trail turns, forks in the path, and most of the battle is won. (Off trail is another story.)

The more preparation you do for the worst, the calmer you will be if something does happen - and THAT will make the difference. So if I am harping on planning, and you think that is misguided... sorry, but preparation and planning makes all the difference in the world. Try sitting in a car with a driver who's never turned a key, then sit in a car with someone who's clocked 100,000 miles in all conditions and road types - the calmer the driver, the less likely there will be an accident on the way to the destination. People who know how to plan and implement a safe backpacking trip are easy to hike with, because you don't need to tell them a thing. They have their own tums, their own map, their own water treatment and don't end up bumming fuel off you unless something catastrophic happens with their stove. And in a crunch - they stay calm.

I think the whole point has been missed all together, not all aspects of survival are symbiotic with backpacking. The OP was trying to encourage a intelligent conversation on the basics of wtshf. No matter where, what, or who you are.

If you haven't read any intelligent conversation in this thread about what to do when the stuff hits the fan, then it seems to me you are dismissing a lot of useful information that has already been offered, as being unintelligent or useless.

However, if you think something else would be more to the point, please share it, rather than simply dismissing what others have shared and then stopping at that. Then maybe we can figure out why your think what has been said so far is so off the mark.

You can think that.

I don't see where the OP really wanted conversation. He wanted to tell us over and over again the same thing. So we can agree with it? I agree with the idea that survival skills are a good thing to have, but it's not why people survive. There are no "basics" other than being prepared beforehand and staying calm - you don't do the same things in a desert as you would in a forest, or in a winter wonderland. There are specifics, mostly. But he didn't talk about that much either.

I absolutely concur with Lori 100%. All the "skills" in the world aren't going to save you if you don't have the skill to remain calm when things go south. And even then, sometimes conditions can alter the mental faculties of even the calmest individual, and they end up responding unexpectedly. Many people who survive do so in part because they steadfastly refuse to accept their situation as fatal. This isn't foolproof by any means, but it certainly helps. Non-outdoors people frequently survive situations simply because they truly have no idea how bad it really is. This is especially true with kids. Some people survive because they are too pissed at the situation to give in. Anger can be a powerful survival tool too.

It is way too shortsighted to assume that "learning" survival skills equates to survival versus death. Survival skills only work if they are practiced, and the practitioner has used that practice as an opportunity to become more comfortable in the outdoor environment. As that comfort level increases, the fear of the unknown decreases, and fewer situations result in panic. Occasional backpackers never have a chance to think through unexpected scenarios because they don't spend enough time in the field. Reading a book, watching TV or taking a weekend class are no substitute for experience. Practice, practice, practice. Experiment in a controlled environment. We all (here on this board anyway) do it, but most of us don't call it being a "survivalist."

Had the OP posted his experience in his original post I believe this conversation would have taken an entirely different path.

MNS

I didn't say I haven't read anything intelligent. What should be a place of discussion has degraded to mud slinging. Information can be gleaned from anywhere, but when you have to wade through bickering it belittles the knoledge shared. Not trying to stir it up, just my outside observation. Forums can be tough, as the reader can't see subtle nuances that make face to face conversation more productive. Once again not trying to argue just point out another perspective.

One thing about this forum is people can have different opinions and we never seem to get around to fighting.

We all at least say we plan and leave itineraries. Most of them could probably be improved. In the past, we have had separate threads on this which were very good.

Unfortunately, we don't have a big volume of knowledge of how people screw up as it seems the reports are kept confidential.

To keep in line with what I believe the OP's intent is, I'll present the following scenario. Falling in a fast moving stream.

If I had the opportunity to teach this, say to a group of scouts, I'd have them take a swimming test in a pool or lake and see how fast they could swim. Then I'd take them out to a fast moving stream and toss a stick in to see how fast the water is moving. It's most likely, they will be at the mercy of the water. From this they should learn not to walk across logs over a fast moving stream. Often there is a slow area not far away.

In a fast moving area, I'd try to float with my feet downstream. If it was feasible, I could make a simple life jacket out of my shirt or pants.

The second half I really have no great idea. If I fell in, I'd try to pick an angle to slow water where I could stand up. I might teach rescue techniques such as reaching with a long stick or tying a stick to the end of a rope and throwing it past the swimmer so they can catch the rope. Going into the water for a rescue often a bad idea which results in two fatalities.

Depending on the temperature of the water, I might teach getting the person stripped down after rescue and inside a sleeping bag. Then make some coffee (coffee is always my solution) to help them warm up.

If I really wanted to learn this scenario, I'd go white water rafting where they teach survival techniques before you go out. Most of them actually have you get in the water.

Going back to prevention as I ramble in my mind. It's possible to get in trouble in about 8 inches of water. It's easy to have your legs swept out from under you and hit your head on a rock. The prevention is twofold. First of all water often looks shallower and slower than it appears. Tossing something in the water to see how quickly it is flowing is a good safety measure. Crossing facing upstream and using your poles for balance can make it safer. You can safely feel with the poles before stepping to see if there is a quick drop off in the bottom. If things start to get uncomfortable, go back the way you came.

Feel free to pick my thoughts apart. That's how I learn

That's not entirely true - there are books and research available to anyone on Amazon. Anyone can purchase Lost Person Behavior and learn more than you probably need to know about statistics on searches.

Yosemite SAR - there is a webpage that provides anecdotes about some searches (not all, that would be an overwhelming amount of information) that are done in the park.

What is not do-able is to tell specific details about searches I have been involved in. People can and do tell their own stories. Angels in the Wilderness is a book written by a woman who broke both legs on the unmaintained trail into Tehipite Canyon. There are lots of others. Forums like this one sometimes have posters that tell their own stories.

I've already told my story of being stupid and dehydrated a few times over on forums.

The stream crossing techniques discussed in many a backpacking book (Allen and Mike's Really Cool Backpacking Book has good illustrations) are good reading.

One of the things such reading encourages, and I agree with, is prevention - assessing the situation. On a day hike out of Kings Canyon we came to a high elevation stream around 2 in the afternoon. It was *barely* crossable. I turned the group around because we would have, if we'd continued on, been arriving back at that stream at 6 pm - one of the lessons you learn about spring hikes when snowmelt is high, the streams are at their peak in the late afternoon. If you are facing a barely crossable stream in midday it will be uncrossable later.

Some good information and discussion Here.

Treatment for hypothermia is called for if the person actually shows symptoms of it... the details of hypothermia If a person develops severe hypothermia, which can happen a lot faster when immersion is a factor, you should not move the person, wrap him up as described, and start by rewarming (gently) the extremities. It is possible to inadvertently cause death by cardiac arrest if you warm the torso too quickly or jar the hypothermic person. Putting hot water bottles or heat pads in the palms, groin, or armpits is where to start. Severely hypothermic people cannot rewarm themselves.

OK. I suggest that the last sentence be put first. The first question you have to ask yourself when facing a fast moving stream is: Do I have to cross this? What will happen if I don't?

Because that's the whole key here. You spend too much time talking about the potential scenarios ONCE YOU GET IN THE WATER. And not enough time explaining that it might be smarter to wait until morning, when the snowmelt is slower and the water levels are lower...You don't have to cross the stream.

And losing half a day hiking is WAY better than losing your life.

Look at another scenario:

My wife and I were near the top of the Chilnualna Falls trails in Yosemite in the spring. We were well above snow level, and following in the footsteps of a few other people who had gone before us. It was a long, steep, hard trail.

The top of the trail was under 2-3 feet of snow, and it looked like it led out to a ledge (maybe 20-25 feet) that would then afford a full view of the falls. We couldn't see the falls from where we were, but we could hear them clearly.

But the footsteps stopped short of this ledge. And it was a ledge--a cliff dropped off several hundred feet to our right, and the cliff face was on our left.

We knew the trail had to lead in that direction. But it was under 30 inches of snow. And we couldn't see what was under that snow. If the ledge was flat, there was no problem. We could slog through the snow, and see the falls. We'd hiked five miles or so to see them. But if there was tricky footing under that snow...

And so we turned around. Because we decided that seeing the falls wasn't worth a 1% chance of falling off that ledge. We could come back to see the falls. We couldn't fall back up that cliff.

That's not a clever wilderness skill. We didn't need an axe or Bowie knife(a snow shovel would have been handy!).

In my experience, those are the kinds of situations that get people into trouble. And no amount of knot tying or preparation for cold water swimming can make up for the skill of avoiding the risk to begin with.

Balzacom,

I agree, prevention is always easier than salvation.

In my opinion, practicing the salvation, when safe, can lead one to be more motivated to prevention. If a person in a training class, even if done with a friend, gets wet in a shallow cold mountain stream, they might be pretty motivated to not do it again.

We could also get caught up in someone else's mess. For instance, we might have to rescue someone who fell through ice on a pond. Without training, we might walk out. With training, we might find a long branch and slide out on our stomach with our arms and legs spread wide. In that case, it would be helpful to have something like a couple tent stakes tied to us with a lanyard to help us get out if we fall in.

Getting the training, even if it's simplified training with a friend, might motivate us to tell the uninformed person in the group not to do something.

It's true that in order to avoid a danger, you first must be able to see the danger. One big problem with neophytes is they are often too ignorant even to see the dangers they expose themselves to.

For such beginners even a basic survival-skills course would probably be too advanced. It would most likely leave them with a distorted view of how to engage with the wilderness safely. What they'd need first would be some instruction in how to use the ten essentials, and a few group hikes under their belts.

But from what Lori has been saying (and she seems to have more specific experience than anyone else on these boards!) It's not the neophytes by the experienced backpackers who somehow ignore the danger...maybe because they've come to think of these situations as minor risks, rather than major ones?

I'm going to step out on a limb here and say that I believe there is a point where you can go alone and be just fine. I've done day hikes and bushwhacks practically all my life, and over the past few years I've been doing more and more solo trips.

That said, I never take any real unnecessary risks out there, I don't do wet crossings when there's even a slight chance of getting swept away, or climb where it's dangerous, and I make sure the weather is going to be perfect during the time I expect to be out.

I go slow, and don't wear myself out, and I take the time to stop, rest, rehydrate, and eat. My hikes are modest in terms of miles and difficulty, in as much as a bushwhack can be here in the Ozarks. It's not that difficult to climb a mountain if you're not in a hurry.

I really can't imagine never going alone.

The top contenders for "things to worry about" from the newbies in the hiking group, and in my backpacking class, are usually animals and bugs, and the women worry about random wild mountain men some of the time (being women we are usually socialized to expect that).

Experienced backpackers, or at least backpackers with a handful of trips under their belt, worry about getting hurt or dehydrated, or hypothermic. At least, the ones in my immediate acquaintance would say it - I hesitate to call it worry, they tend to be rather self assured about it. Having allowed myself (and being forced by circumstances one time) to slip into a state of mild to moderate dehydration, I'd say that's my biggest concern, simply because I seem to continue to get there despite all the sipping and water source research I do.

Actual statistics on searches implemented(see above) would indicate that getting lost is a bigger problem, and I tend to agree with that. I don't fear getting lost myself, but I am aware that despite ongoing refresher courses (SAR trainings slam you to the mat on compass skills regularly, and expect GPS proficiency as well as working with interpolators and triangulating skills) I am at risk as much as anyone.

Complacency can lead to mistakes, and some of my first search incidents were for veteran outdoorsmen (not just hikers, also hunters), so I try not to succumb to that "I'm an expert, I can handle it" assumption myself. Because I consider myself a well-researched and well-read, experienced backpacker - not an expert by any means. I think Wandering Daisy would qualify for expert status well before I would.

WARNING!

As a moderator I am posting a general warning. I just had to remove one post and all replies to it because it moved too far away from civility and too far toward personal sniping. That has no place in this forum.

All participants are now warned. Keep it clean in the clenches. The subject matter here is not persons or personalities and it will not be allowed to become so.

And I wouldn't imagine that I'd ever expect you to not go solo. I go solo too, sometimes. I have rules for that and follow them. It's not going to be a cross country trip - I might bend that one if I know the route/area well. It's usually somewhere I've been before, or a place I know is more popular and likely to have other folks at least on the trails... It's also usually preventive SAR and so my SAR commander has a very detailed itinerary and expected return time.

But the most oft-repeated advice you'll get is not to go alone. A 70-something year old friend and career hiker (he goes 3-4 times a week, now that he's retired) was instructed by his doctor to never go alone. He has health concerns that make this sound advice.

And for a beginner, who doesn't understand his/her limits yet, or what it means to be hydrated or not, it's good practice.

In my opinion, the added risk of a cautious hiker/backpacker going alone is very similar to driving alone without an extra set willing eyes to look for hazards.

I've seen no statistics comparing the safety of hiking alone to hiking with others. I don't think there could be any as nobody knows the mix of people out there. We also don't know if a fatality that occurs when a person is alone would have occurred if they were with someone.

Always hiking with a group may actually increase risk. Many won't become proficient at navigation. Many will not do any of the planning. Many won't have even basic skills to spend a night. They will just follow a group.

The most common fatality or rescue I see in Colorado news is for a person who got separated from a group. I'd hate to have the first time I hiked/backpacked alone be when I got separated from a group and lost.

I agree with filing a plan with someone. To make it really good, I put a picture of me with my pack on, a picture of my footprints, a map of where I'm going and a picture of my tent, and a picture of my car. I email this to a friend so he can email it to SAR if the need arises.

I also leave a copy of the plan on the dash of my car and leave the doors unlocked. I also have the return date written in big letters on the plan so a ranger who sees it there for a few days will know when I'm expected back. I've been told they mildly pay attention after the car is there two nights.

Personally, I always call the Forest Service before I hike. Sometimes they give information which causes me to change my plans. If the conditions are significantly different than what they told me, I call them back with an update.

It's also important to check the weather online here. It can look really nice, but a big snowstorm or severe thunderstorms might be just over the horizon.

As with most activities that are considered dangerous, a person's safety mindset has more to do with a successful outcome than the activity itself. The word "experienced" means nothing to me in a news article. Often from the content of the article I could change that to "lucky until then."

This is for SAR team members. In my opinion, SAR reports should be published. Perhaps they could be released 3 years later so identities aren't so clear. There is one victim written account here which has some good information.

You aren't alone, but, as long as they are attached to law enforcement agencies, SAR units follow the same policies. And think about this: would you want everyone in the world to know you were drinking urine to stay alive, and then you were found three miles from your car?

And Yosar does not publish everything... no way. That park rarely has a day go by that the searchers don't go out. The radio traffic is incredible to listen to.

As already noted, nothing stops books from being written, and there's plenty of those.

Lori,

Usually safety reports are published without names in aviation. Yes, all the dirty details come out and some people get embarrassed, but they save a lot of lives.

So what if someone knows I drank filtered urine to stay alive? They probably wouldn't mess with me after.

It amazes me that Yosemite has so many rescues. Last year, I talked to the local SAR in early August and they hadn't had a rescue all year.

Perhaps a sanitized book of rescues in the gift shop at Yosemite would prevent some of these rescues. It could earn SAR some extra money, too.

There is a nagging concern I have for myself. Since I've never had a bad situation in the wilderness and have never run across someone who has, maybe I'm underestimating the dangers. A book of local rescues could dispel that and at least make me more alert. As you say, it will probably never happen, so I read news accounts every so often.

Yosemite has lots rescues because it has lots of use. Some relatively dangerous places are easily accessible (seasonally very swift water even next to roads). Many trails are quite strenuous, iniviting those who probably should not go up them. Yosemite is also a world class climbing center - very difficult climbs- requiring a specialized rescue team for climbing rescues. I do not think a book of rescue details in a gift shop would make a lick of difference. There are plenty of signs of the dangers, and many people just ignore them anyway. I think a bit of the problem is the glorification of stupidity that is shown on reality TV that young people now are watching.

Agreed. But it shouldn't surprise us that there are so many rescues in Yosemite. AFter all, each year we read of people who die there---and you have to assume that there are many other close calls that people survive.

If you ignore the big sign that says DO NOT SWIM and go in the water anyway, yes, you get into big trouble.

It's no surprise at all that the majority of medical issues and callouts are on the trail between Half Dome and Happy Isles. Half Dome could be (should be) described as an "attractive nuisance." Everyone, whether they have ever hiked a mile before or not, feels that they MUST DO IT AT ALL COSTS and make the attempt - or so you'd think looking at the statistics. Bad shoes, no water, no common sense, no experience, doesn't matter. I've given away more water, snack bars and advice on that trail - so I rarely go up it any more. And only in the wee hours of the morning before the tourist rush.

I met one of the cable rangers on her way down for the day, last year. She told me the permit system had cut the number of daily incidents from a dozen to less than six. That's kind of huge.

It's the same with death valley. Every year tourist go off trail with no water, get confused and bam they're skeletons. I do alot of desert hiking, even if it's a 2 hour hike I prep for overnight. A big reason I got into light weight equipment.

I doubt it would help. It's like survival skills training - the people who need it the most won't be the ones really motivated to seek it out.

We have a few "repeat offenders" locally who never learn from their own experience. We go looking for them anyway. A little annoying, but not everyone is as functional as everyone else...

On the other end of the spectrum we have people like the fellow who signed up for my backpacking class - he did not want to even go out there without someone who "knew what they were doing" and so paid for himself and his teenagers to attend a class. They learned a lot and had fun, and it was evidently a positive experience - he intends to sign up for the hiking group in spring and continue to learn. He'll be one not likely to be a search subject.

If people paid attention to the safety classes we (SAR) teach at REI, to the signs we post on all our trailheads in our area, to the basics of hiking posted a million places on the internet - it would reduce the number of incidents. And I think it does. The classes are well attended. On preventive SAR hikes people I talk to are paying attention to things like leaving itineraries with someone. But, these are all people who tend to seek out the information.

It's just that far too many are not open to it - and sometimes, you run into people who just don't care who tells them the risks and how to be safer. They do what they do. Don't care about the risk. Thru hikers determined to hike through the night into a storm because they "must be X by Tuesday" are not concerned by lighting on high passes.

Sequoia - Kings sends out a 10 essentials flyer with all confirmations for wilderness permits you reserve, and they have an excellent set of four pdfs on their website on wilderness safety and planning trips. You do not need the details of searches to learn wilderness safety. Things like those pdfs and all the information provided in backpacking books and classes are well informed by the many incidents that have taken place. And people who are looking for them get it. The non-receptive folks who we short haul off ledges probably just throw away or ignore....

There are people who live here who do not know search and rescue exists. I sometimes mention to co-workers that I volunteer for it. "What's search and rescue?" This is why we walk in parades and show up to local community events to man a booth, and show kids how to tie a bowline on a bight, or hug a tree. Every once in a while, families take a trip where they have never been, to camp or hike where they never have before. I've had members of the hiking group call ME directly when someone they know gets lost (or they think the person is lost... long story) - and I have to tell them to call the national park, or the county sheriff. It is not even on the radar that getting lost while hiking *might* happen. These are not folks who would even imagine picking up a book about this sort of thing.

So, awareness, then exposure to basic prep for venturing into the outdoors, then experience. Survival skills is a looooooong way off for some people.

If I were out in the wilderness and something went horribly wrong, could I survive long enough to be rescued or else reach civilization?

I think so. I think that, for me, the biggest factor is that I know my limitations. I know what I don't know. I know how far I can push myself, and I know when to quit.

I know how to build a fire with only what I can find in the woods. If I were injured, sick, or freezing to death, it would be really difficult. But if it was something else (like getting hopelessly lost, or stranded by a rushing stream, or something else), and if I had my pack and its contents still with me, it wouldn't faze me.

I know that the very first thing to do when facing an unforseen difficulty is stop and make a cup of tea. Coffee might work, but there's something reflective about brewing tea that just gets the mind working straighter. Stop and nurse that cup of tea, and think about something else for a little bit, and when you come back to the problem often an answer will begin to form. I think panic is the absolute worst thing to have in the backcountry. A wet sleeping bag in cold weather can be dealt with. An injured hand or foot can be dealt with. Panic saps energy and fogs the mind and makes really simple things into impossible mountains.

I know enough bushcraft to build a whole cabin if I need to. I've never actually done it, so maybe I know less than I think. But I'd give it a try if it came down to it. I'm good at figuring things out.

I bet I could go out in three seasons with only a razor blade and a bit of mason twine and make it ok for several days. I don't want to do that, because it doesn't sound fun or safe to me. But if I had to I could.

But here's the rub: I do have common sense. I heard a couple local radio personalities talking about common sense one time. One of the guys said that we need to start calling it uncommon sense, since no one seems to have it anymore. My common sense makes me take rain gear even when no rain is forecast, food when I'm only planning to be out for a little while, and a map even though I know the area. My common sense shies away from rough streams, especially in wet weather, and it sends me home when I get hypothermic. (Which actually happened. Once.)

The sad part is that I think that the people who need it most are the ones least likely to have it. For us, this is something approaching a passion. We know how to be reasonably safe and prepared. For most people who are just beginning, that drive just isn't there yet. Sometimes you have an experience like I did once that makes you sit up and take notice, but sometimes that experience just nearly kills you.

That's my two cents.

even if it's a 2 hour hike I prep for overnight

I've come to the point where I do this for almost any day hike I take, even if it's on a popular trail. For example, today I was day hiking on what is normally a very popular trail, and I met the usual hordes of people on the first two miles. For the next eight miles I met not one soul. The final mile was back to business as usual: hordes.

If I'd got myself in trouble expecting someone to appear in ten minutes and save me, I'd have been very disappointed over those eight miles. The good thing was I has enough in my pack to emergency bivy overnight if I'd had to, along with a flashlight capable of letting me creep out in the dark, if I were still able to self-rescue. Lastly, I had the PLB with me and could have pushed the big red button, if need be.

Of course, nothing bad happened. Though I'm not sad about that.

TO EVERYBODY

This thread has become nothing but an "I said you said" and has very little value as far as survival information goes (its lost in all of the words) and really isn't very interesting either.

Maybe we should have had a "survival information usefull thread" and a "lets argue about it so any latent value will be lost in the dust" thread.

Hey - lighten up you guys...
When someone tries to antagonize you - ignore it - drop it - this isn't a place for personal arguements.
JB thanks for trying to start this, sorry you've been put on the defensive.
Jim

I disagree. There's info and references to more info buried in the thread somewhere. More than he said/ she said.