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#167370 - 06/28/12 12:56 AM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: phat]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By phat

And just an addon to that - I *never* see black bears up high - only grizzlies - so if you're considering where you do and don't find black bears in the sierras, don't make that correlation with grizzlies.



I've seen bear poop above treeline in the Sierra. They don't start talk about mandating bear cans above 10,000 feet in Sequoia NP for no reason.
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#167372 - 06/28/12 01:25 AM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: lori]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By lori

I've seen bear poop above treeline in the Sierra. They don't start talk about mandating bear cans above 10,000 feet in Sequoia NP for no reason.


So perhaps I just don't see blackies up high here because it's Grizzly country wink
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#167373 - 06/28/12 01:34 AM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: phat]
lori Offline
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Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By phat
Originally Posted By lori

I've seen bear poop above treeline in the Sierra. They don't start talk about mandating bear cans above 10,000 feet in Sequoia NP for no reason.


So perhaps I just don't see blackies up high here because it's Grizzly country wink


I think the bears are following people up there!

It's nuts how I can go to Sespe and see a zillion bear tracks and scat, and no bears at all, and yet in the national parks, come tootling around a corner and nearly run into a bear that just stands there looking around, and casually steps off the trail. Habituated bears don't scare me because they are bears - they are nerve wracking because they are so blase about people, and you wonder when you are going to run into one of those bears that won't leave you alone. I love the parks, but I start to worry about 'what if I encounter one of those nuisance bears that are a fly's eyelash from being shot?'

A friend of mine saw Yosemite rangers kill a bear in Little Yosemite Valley once. It's a sobering thought, with all the zany behavior Yosemite bears exhibit - to what extremes does a bear have to go, relative to what happens 500+ times annually in Yosemite, to get the death sentence?
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#167383 - 06/28/12 06:14 PM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: phat]
wandering_daisy Offline
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Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2751
Loc: California
Thanks for the informaton. I am used to talking to Sierra black bears. I wonder if grizzlies like to hear Dr. Suess?

The grizzlies have just started to move into the Wind Rivers and sightings have been in the 9000-ft range. I too have heard of the moth eating - it is a really big event in the Beartooth Mountains of southern Montana. I have run into enough black bear in the Sierra that I at least have some idea of their behavior. Do grizzlies have a "typical behavoir" or is their behavior regional? Thanks for the mother-cub warning for higher altitudes.

Do you carry the smaller bear spray can or the large one? I have a Counter-Assult 8 oz (2%) and a UDAP 6.3 oz (10%). The UDAP is actually in a larger cannister. Unfortunately both are past thier expiration dates (2008). I suppose I have to buy another - any suggestion of what is best?

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#167386 - 06/28/12 09:03 PM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: wandering_daisy]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By wandering_daisy

The grizzlies have just started to move into the Wind Rivers and sightings have been in the 9000-ft range. I too have heard of the moth eating - it is a really big event in the Beartooth Mountains of southern Montana. I have run into enough black bear in the Sierra that I at least have some idea of their behavior. Do grizzlies have a "typical behavoir" or is their behavior regional? Thanks for the mother-cub warning for higher altitudes.


I'm betting they have "habitat" behavoir - Grizzlies in the Rrockies behave differently than grizzlies on the BC coast - (who, like the Alaska bears have salmon runs to live off) some things won't change (like adult males killing cubs, moms trying to protect them, etc.)

I'm betting Grizz in the Winds would be a *lot* like the Grizz where I am.

While I'd be "concerned" about the mom and cub thing up high, the flip side is, I'd waaay rather encounter them in the alpine - they can see and hear you a long way off, and often, the reason they are up there is to *avoid* big things - I've never encountered them where they didn't just take off.

I have had big males where we've seen him walking down the trail at the end of the pass (toward us), made noise, made ourselves visible, and he looks at us.. and just keeps walking.... eventually we walk off the trail up the side of a hill a few hundred yards.. and he just keeps walking on down the trail past us.... "don't mess with me" sort of attitude.. we gave him the trail and all was well.

Quote:

Do you carry the smaller bear spray can or the large one? I have a Counter-Assult 8 oz (2%) and a UDAP 6.3 oz (10%). The UDAP is actually in a larger cannister. Unfortunately both are past thier expiration dates (2008). I suppose I have to buy another - any suggestion of what is best?


I carry this:

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ShopMEC/HikingCamping/HealthSafety/OutdoorSafety/PRD~5025-357/frontiersman-bear-spray-1-225g-cannister.jsp

A 225g canister My choices up here are basically 225 or 325 gram canisters (so 8 or 10 oz).

Honestly, I want enough that if I have to use it I can give a good constant hosing into eyes and mouth from under 10 feet. I don't want to go too small, because I want something with enough stuff to project even in wind.

I've been through 4 as they have expired. I have *never* had occasion to use it in many encounters.

That MEC page says it's 1% - it lies, I think it's 2%.

I don't think you can buy 10% in Canada that I have seen - unless you're the RCMP spraying G8 protesters or subduing polish immigrants armed with staplers...





Edited by phat (06/28/12 09:11 PM)
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#167387 - 06/28/12 09:15 PM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: wandering_daisy]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By wandering_daisy
Thanks for the informaton. I am used to talking to Sierra black bears. I wonder if grizzlies like to hear Dr. Suess?


I talk to them here during an encounter. Haven't given them Dr. Suess - I tell every grizzly I meet the old joke about the bear and the rabbit on the latrine log with the bear asking the rabbit if stuff sticks to his fur.... seriously.. smile

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#167433 - 07/01/12 10:19 PM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: phat]
billstephenson Offline
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Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
and he just keeps walking on down the trail past us


I've heard (read?), but never seen, there are bear trails out there that are thousands of years old, and in places there are big footprint depressions where they've stepped in the same spot when traveling on them over those years.

Ever seen anything like that?
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#167438 - 07/02/12 02:44 AM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: wandering_daisy]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6399
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Getting back to the original topic: the tent--another idea might be to modify the Moment: Tarptent Moment modifications by a UK hiker. According to him, there are already loops on each side of the pole to attach additional guylines. Definitely you should use these for windy conditions!


Edited by OregonMouse (07/02/12 02:47 AM)
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#167441 - 07/02/12 09:46 AM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: OregonMouse]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
perhaps - but looking at the "roof vent wouldn't stay open" that might help the condensation issues
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#167484 - 07/02/12 04:35 PM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: phat]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2751
Loc: California
I have already addressed both the roof vents (I made braces out of old stiff ensolite) and tie downs (I always use these). One thing going for me in the Wind Rivers, is the wind. I may not have as much condensation there since there are very few still nights. Right now I am taking a bivy as a back up and sleeping bag cover. I will not take the Tyvek footprint (saves 3 oz) if I take the bivy. I wish I had a lighter bivy but cannot justify buying one. The bivy plus Tarptent totals 3 lb 7 oz and I really am having trouble finding a tent rated for alpine conditions that weighs significantly less and of course, any new tent would cost significant $$$.

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#167486 - 07/02/12 05:03 PM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: wandering_daisy]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By wandering_daisy
Right now I am taking a bivy as a back up and sleeping bag cover. I will not take the Tyvek footprint (saves 3 oz) if I take the bivy. I wish I had a lighter bivy but cannot justify buying one. The bivy plus Tarptent totals 3 lb 7 oz and I really am having trouble finding a tent rated for alpine conditions that weighs significantly less and of course, any new tent would cost significant $$$.


I have used my silponcho as a sleeping bag cover once - it does have buttons and ties down the side, and so can be made into a bivy of sorts - I'd not want to use it as my only shelter, but if it is only for a backup, and you are already going to carry a small silnylon tarp - my 5x8 silnylon tarps, or silponcho, weighs a lot less than a bivy (and can be used as a tarp too...) of course, it's also, well, not a bivy - would work good I think as a sleeping bag cover in a tent, would be very touch and go as a standalone bivy in foul weather.

Nevertheless, yeah, even my usual rig is not a lot lighter than what you are taking - and either very hard to obtain, expensive, or both. So I certainly wouldn't feel bad about taking that.

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#167631 - 07/04/12 10:32 PM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: phat]
sandia Offline
member

Registered: 04/18/12
Posts: 68
A true "mountaineering tent" would be severe overkill for Wind Rivers in summer, & almost any backpacking tent would be fine, if potentially heavy.

At the very exposed Applebee Campground surrounded by glaciers in Bugaboos, a tent commonly seen is the BD Megamid, which as you know, is really more of a tarp.

Ray Jardine writes of his seasons as "wilderness instructor" in Colorado, camping extensively above tree line (in summer) with students using a large sheet of builders' plastic.

Am not suggesting this, but perhaps a tent intended for high altitudes in Alaska might not be what you need.



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#167766 - 07/10/12 05:56 PM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: phat]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
WD, I don't know if you have seen this one yet. I haven't used it. Don't know how it will handle wind. Just something to think about.

Miles Gear
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#167833 - 07/14/12 01:43 AM Re: Backpack Tent vs Mountaineering Tent [Re: wandering_daisy]
ohiohiker Offline
member

Registered: 07/20/07
Posts: 127
Loc: Ohio
I have a Moment, and I used it with a down bag last year as the outer bands of hurricane Irene hit us in the mountains of WV. We were in the forest and the leeward side of the mountain, so we didn't have severe wind. We did have torrential rain, and there was constant condensation in the tent which dripped and shook loose from the top of the tent. These conditions were somewhat anticipated, including the condensation showers. The DWR on my bag prevented the drops from penetrating into the down. I just shook it out in the morning, and it was fine.

There is a 3.8 oz liner available for the Moment which would mostly solve the condensation shower problem. I have it, but it wasn't worth the weight for me to bring it on this trip where temps never went below 50F.

There are a few small things on the Moment to tighten it down, like the strap/buckle to tension the fabric on the main pole. There is also the side lineloc at the ends which tensions the lower fly fabric. Tighten everything down right before getting into bed, as this will allow time for the silnylon to sag from moisture after being pitched dry. Also, use guylines and trekking poles on the mid-panel tieouts which are also used for the optional crossing pole.

If the tent is holding together in high wind, then it's fine. That's the most which could be expected from a non-mountaineering tent.

Having said all of this, I now have the 2012 BA Copper Spur UL1. grin It's the same weight as my seam sealed (and silicone-coated floor) Moment with liner. I've taken it only on one trip so far, but that was winter in 4 ft of snow and a snowstorm in the UP of Michigan near Lake Superior. There's less room, but I like the double wall. The higher solid inner walls reduce the drafty feeling of the Moment's ground-level ventilation. It could probably use a few added guylines itself for windy areas, but I like the integrated condensation prevention (double wall with mesh ceiling inner).

In the images below, I didn't have the guylines on the head end of the tent staked. This didn't seem to matter much, as the wind was from the foot (north) end, and coming in from a small lake. Once the snow accumulated on the fly enough to start sliding off, it startled me. In my mostly-asleep state, it sounded like alien lasers ripping apart the nylon. eek





Edited by ohiohiker (07/14/12 01:50 AM)

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