this sort of comes from winter camping, but is a valuable summer concept. Refer to NASIDS - nonavolanche snow immersion death, where a skier or snowboarder with momentum gets buried head first under a tree in a tree well - a hole under a tree. 90% of victims cannot get them selves out and a rescue strap to help pull a buddy out - who isn't completely buried - is one partial solution. Also tree wells offer a potentially warm safe plce to spend a night in an emergency - if you can get out.

Theres been times when I got into a lot of trouble in the wilderness and a piece of rope saved my butt. I carried a 30 foot piece of 4mm rope and it did save my life fer sure. Other times I have also carried 80 feet of 5mm and it too saved my life. So why don't people carry a piece of rope instead of something less important?

If you go into a tree well on purpose use the rope to help get yourself out - tie the rope to something outside the hole and use it to pull upwards as you gently step up into the snow. Have another plan if the snow is too loose to get out - you will need your skis or snowshoes to be on.

Given a choice - I choose length over diameter but less than 4-5mm is worthless - 9mm better - like a piece of old climbing rope. So how many would add 8 ounces of rope if it meant they could do more dangerous of activity summer or winter?
Jim

I always take about 50-70 feet of line with me that doubles for hanging food and lowering my pack. When considering rope strength, remember that a knot will reduce the strength of a rope up to half. I am a small person so I can get by with a thinner line than Jim can! Why would anyone purposely want to go down into a tree well?

Jim- does anyone use the "foating string" anymore in avalance condtions? Before beacons we used to carry a ball of florecscent string to release if caught in an avalanche. It was supposed to float on the surface so if burried someonen could find you. I am not sure if the method was proven ineffective or if it was just replaced by avalanche beacons. Or was this just a local quirk - I hardly hear of anyone knowing about it.

I used to do so Jim, and would like to do so again.

I think Jim was talking about trying to use ones hands to climb on an extremely thin rope, not the ability of the line to bare ones weight. Of course, I may be completely off my rocker on this one.

Great topic. I carried a 100 foot, 3/8" Goldline in my SAR pack for years as standard equipment for years. Came in handy countless times in many ways.

In the early seventies I worked in Canyon de Chelly (heaven on earth for a rock climbing archaeologist). I soon learned to always carry rope. My minimum was 60' of 9mm, which invariable accompanied me always, even when only planning to drive up the canyon. That was in addition to whatever cordage also came along for the task at hand. Doesn't hurt to throw in some slings, and a biner or two.

I once posted on a gun form that a length of quality climbing rope would be more generally useful as EDC than a firearm. Let's just say that was a novel concept for many.....

I've brought rope on a few occasions over the past dozen years when I wanted to add a margin of safety to get to someplace I wanted to explore, but even on those occasions I wouldn't really call the situation "dangerous". I just wanted something better to hang on to while I was climbing, but never really needed it. That said, I would not have gone to those places without one, so I guess that still qualifies in a sense, but I'm sure it doesn't rise to the level of what you and W_D are talking about.

This one will have me laughing for a good while. I suppose you could have won them over pointing out the rope can be used to hang bad guys after a speedy western-justice type trial.

Cheers,

One of the leading causes, if not the leading cause, for injuries and fatalities in the backcountry is falls of various sorts. Proper use of a rope tends to prevent falls. I have been on a lot of accident scenes where moderate use of a rope for a short belay or even just a handline, would have prevented a lot of unhappiness.

If I'm in a situation where I have to use a rope, I'm SOL anyway. Hysson and I are careful to stay out of such situations!

I do have a 50-foot cord that I could use to raise/lower a pack if needed. It doubles as a dog tie-out and at least to give the appearance that I can hang my Ursack in areas where hanging is required (since I can't throw due to shoulder issues, I can't really hang my food, which is why I bought the Ursack in the first place).

I'm with OM on this one. If I am out the backcountry with my wife, we avoid situations that might require a rope. That's using the best single tool we carry with us: our judgement.

But I have rock climbed, and enjoyed it. And I can imagine doing a trip that migth combine both backcountry and rock climbing. That trip would not include my wife, by her choice.

And right now, I'd rather spend time with her than with a rope!

nevermind

Rope needs to be used appropriately too, or it can increase instead of decreasing risk. Using it to pendulum across a raging creek or river is Bad. Trying to use it for climbing when you don't understand climbing gear or have that skill can be dangerous - like people trying to go up Half Dome when the stanchions are down, and thinking that a rope and biner are a safety measure without thinking about what happens if you free fall for 10-20 feet and the biner catchs - yank! ouch. sure, you don't hit the bottom of the dome, but hitting the end of a rope while falling isn't great either.

Any gear of this sort needs to be accompanied by skill, or at least enough research to know what NOT to use it for.

I carry maybe 10-15 feet of 4mm climbing rope. Its main purpose is extra rope for my hammock, in case the 4mm rope that I am using is either too short, or breaks. I figure that there is more uses than the one that I bring it, so it comes in the pack.

I've carried a 30' coil of 1/8" nylon braid for years, being replace with Amsteel Blue (2500 lbs.ave. strength)and have used it a number of times for various things. Takes up no pack room, weights almost nothing, why not?

Agreed. We take about 60 feet of a lightweight line that we use for many different things. But this is NOT suitable for a safety rope of any kind, and we sure don't use it for that!

Absolutely. When I say climbing, it's not in the same context that Jim or W_D use the term. Not even close. I have never, ever "climbed" as they use the term.

But there have been a few spots I wanted to explore and I came back with a rope to make it easier on me. In all these cases it looked tougher (to me) than it turned out to be, and I didn't really need the rope, but I didn't regret bringing it.

I take 6mm line to use as a handline. Decided I wanted some line when hiking on snow after getting on the wrong trail coming down from camp muir.

I guess I never thought of taking spectra rope - its pretty cheap on ebay and I use it for my hammock harness - and its a darn sight lighter than climbing rope BUT unless you understand climbing and falling, climbing on a non-stretch rope can be harardous to your health. Spectra does not stretch, thus the rope cannot absorb any force, instead the force of a fall will be applied to your guts and your anchor, either one of which could fail.

I realise that most backpackers won't be in territory where a rope might be of much use. But I've been climbing in a hiking area and heard someone screaming for help (a hiker in over his head). Because I had a rope I could climb above him, rap down to him and use a body belay to help him down with a bowline in the end of the rope around him, I was anchored from above, and there was adequate places for him to step getting down that it wasn't a "free rappel".

I have a piece of that fluorescent pink Mammut avo cord that trails along behind you. I guess I didn't know that no one uses it anymore, but come to think of it, I haven't seen any snowboarders trailing rope.

And yes you can get into some hairy situations with a rope! Once I rappeled out of the mouth of a cirque in Yosemite. I had 80 feet of 4mm and doubled it for a 40 foor rap where I tied off to a tree and then did another 40 feet down. A double length sling for a harness and 4 biners is about the minimum you need for free rappels. Anyway five minutes after clearing the debris area below the cirque, there was a major rockslide down the chute with refridgerator sized boulders. that went through the same path that I had, only faster. I was 100 yards to the left of the chute when it happened.

I was reffering to the diameter of the rope being sufficient to get a grip on it with your hands and if not directly ascend it, to use it for an aid that can bear weight. A going up rope needs to be large unless you have other gear.

I was just up on Mt Bachelor at the ski park skiing through fir trees and examining the snow holes. We don't have enough snow yet but its coming. A buddy of mine wants me to help him set up a semipermanent snowcamp up near the snowpark on Friday. I may do some firtree hole camping next week.

Jim

Pics or it didn't happen Jim.

Finally
If you see meaningful pics of extreme happenings, they were posed. Modern cameras are too slow and human reaction time too slow, not to mention that when yer up to yer waist in alligators, you tend to forget why you were there in the first place and the camera ain't the first thing ya think of. If you're taking pictures, you ain't that scared.

Heck is that Sasquatch sitting with Jimmy Hoffa and Jackie Onasis over there, wheres my camera?
Jim

Jim's right! The last thing anyone would think of doing in an emergency situation is getting out the camera!

Bringing a rope is sort of like having a 4wd. You can get into more trouble with each than without if you are not careful! If a rope is going to get you into stuff you have no buisness doing, the hardly adds safety to your trip.

Jim- I think this has been hashed over before or am I just getting old and forgetful. I swear this same topic came up within the last few years.

You haven't taken a gander at YOU TUBE lately? Just the 9/11 episode had so many just unclear as to what to do, so they filmed it with their phones. However, it IS the last thing I would think of doing.

I bring rope as well. It's useful in all sorts of circumstances, but if you don't understand how to use what type of rope you have it could lead you into some real trouble. It seems to me that this thread is heading in the direction of good decision making/risk assessment. I would love to hear from a lot of you on that topic, and I bet some of the newer backpackers would too. I'm thinking that both Jim and W_D would have something to say about that with a little thought.

Some of us can't help ourselves.

Cheers,

"Yo, hold my beer and get this on video."

One of our victims was a middle school teacher who attempted to do a single strand rappel of a 500 foot cliff with a 250 foot rope. When he reached the end of his rope (literally) he instructed his students not to call SAR but to go back to town and get some more rope! Some one called us anyway and we were able to get the guy down (our rope was 600 feet long).

Some very good points have been made about possible negatives in employing a rope, but that is true of nearly all gear - tents, stoves, you name it. The most critical aspect of a FAK is the training and knowledge of the person employing it, for instance. Just gear, blindly acquired, is of surprisingly little value, while the trained and aware person can accomplish a lot with very little.

A rope, properly employed, can open up a lot of country.

WD
31 hours into this thread we have 246 hits and 24 responses - so I guess its a subject that OTHER people want to rehash OR to read for the first time. Ours is to distribute good information freely...

<If a rope is going to get you into stuff you have no buisness doing, the hardly adds safety to your trip.>

:)I guess that statement sort of confuses me. But then as you have said we are very different.


Jim

People with 4wd vehicles sometimes drive too far on snowy roads that they would have not done without the 4wd. Then they high center and are stuck. The 4wd enables them to get into situations they would not have done without it. Of course, once you really know what you are doing with a 4wd, you realize that it is not going to do you much good if you high center, nor is it going to help you stop on ice.

Same with a rope. It is a too that enables you to do stuff you would not do without it. Fine if you know the limits of the rope and what you are getting into. You and I well know that if we rappel off a cliff we had better have a plan on either how to get back out or know of a route at the bottom that gets us to where we want to go. Another example of a rope making you less safe, is if you use it incorrectly to cross a stream. (there is a correct way to use a rope to cross streams). If you did not have the rope to begin with, you would judge the stram too risky, and retreat. But you and your buddy have this rope and think you are safer and tie into it. Wrong. So instead of retreating you think you have a safety line, and cross, fall in and are pulled under.

We used to have a saying in Wyoming, that only people with 4wd's ever got stuck; everyone else had enough sense to stay home during a big storm.

I dare say that most backpackers do not know how to properly use a rope.

I was not implying that this thread is not worthwhile. I just do remember that this is a "rerun". I personally have trouble digging up old threads, so I see why we repeat stuff. It would be interesting to pull up that old thread and see what was said.

That's a great story oldranger

I think it illustrates the point perfectly.

Jim, I was talking about this.


That is not an emergency. You have plenty of time to take pics in the process.

Another example of something that tempts people who have no business doing something into doing it would be the Half Dome cables, the biggest money pit in the national park system - all the dollars that flow into rescues, trying to pre-SAR the hike, trying to choke back the flow of thousands of people trying to wangle and scalp and finagle permits, dollars spent chasing the scalpers, all from taxpayers pockets into perpetuating that giant attractive nuisance pulling all those tourists up the trail, limping and blistering all the way, to ascend a rock face they have no business ascending and ignoring every piece of advice doled out on pamphlets, websites and by people sitting at the table in Happy Isles....

Any piece of gear needs to be used appropriately regardless. It could be argued that there is a dangerous way to set up a tent. Ignorance in the wilderness is in general going to increase your risk to unacceptable levels. Rope can be dangerous, just ask any newbie trying to toss up a bear bag line. (Ow! $%^@#, I'm just sleeping with it....)

It's sort of tempting, roping everyone together when facing a stretch of really exposed slope, but it takes some kind of training or experience to tell the rest of the group what the risks of doing that are if no one in the group knows how to arrest and can do it with three other people dangling from their belt. And despite the strength of paracord (that favorite rope recommended in so many gear lists newbies read) in some conditions, it can and does snap in nothing flat under others - why there is a ton of it dangling in the tops of trees all over Yosemite. All you have to do is look up when you get to a spot that has flat spots clearly used by tenters and fire rings.

I assume most of you have heard of survival straps.

if not google it. Bracelet type that unwinds to high quality paracord.

Plus, if you use it and tell them the story, they will replade it for free

Paracord is not what we are talking about here. This about real rope that can actually catch and hold a moderate fall. Paracord is a very useful product, but it has no application in climbing situations (well, maybe as shoelace). People have died demonstrating that.

Backpackers who also think that simply by bringing an ice axe or crampons makes it safe to cross steep snow will have a real surprise if they actually fall. The use of both these pieces of equipment are a skill that takes considerable practice to perfect. And even for those who are experts, there is a real limit to stopping yourself. If you do not get it done in the first few minutes it is not going to happen.

Microspikes add to this problem. I am all for microspikes to use on low angle slick snow or ice, but I would not use them on any slope where you have a possibility of a long fall, even a moderate angle slope.

All these gadgets, rope included, can give you a false sense of security. Using this gear with a full pack on your back is also very different than using them on a day climb.

I personally do not carry anything more than parachute cord to lower my pack when needed. I feel no obligation to carry nearly a pound of rope just in case I run across someone who is in trouble. Frankly, on most of my trips off-trail, I may see less than a handfull of people on the entire trip.

Which is exactly the point - I've heard people claim that paracord can be more than it is.

It isn't even a good bear bagging rope. I'd be using it to repair gear, lower a pack down something steep, spare guy line, or other non critical applications - never as a climbing rope. That's it's often added to gear lists without explanation of this is part of the problem.

Thanks for the heads up there....

Interstingly my first emergecy use of that rope was to go up. I had descended into a blind ravine of loose talus and suddenly found myself in very loose rock looking over a 100 foot drop. I sat down very carefully and grabbed the end of a broken bush about 2 inches in diameter as the only solid hold. I pulled the rope out of the outside pocket where it lived and tied one end to the stump and one to me. I then very carefully crawled back up the slope to another stump and retied the rope. Then I had to go back down holding onto the rope, untie it, tie it to me and carefully reascend. Then I repeated the process one more time to safety.

There were several life threatening stages - the first crawl up, what If I had slipped over the edge with a small rope tied to my leather belt? Incidentally, thats one reason why people used to have rivited belts with double "hookers", so they could hold your weight. Yep I have also rappeled on that same leather belt looped through the eyes of my jeans. This was not a good example of danger management and since I didn't slip, I guess I really didn't need the rope, but without it I might have just sat there screaming for help.

If somebody goes through an ice bridge and lives and you want to get them out of a stream, a good piece of rope is gonna help.
Jim

Good example. While rappelling is a common use, the rope is often employed to help some who is a little shaky over a class three (almost a 4!) stretch. I used "my little it of rope" routinely to belay my daughter climbing up the dock ladders when going out to the Channel Islands. Pop her into a kid's harness; precede her up the ladder; drop the rope and Mom ties her in;Mom also is right behind her while she come up the ladder. This is about a fifteen foot climb usually and falling down into the water while a boat is bumping up against the ladder would be very unfortunate.

I must have a bit of Sam Gamgee's DNA in my makeup.....

Hadn't thought of that one! My daughter insisted on taking my day pack up those Channel Island ladders, but she didn't really need to. I thought that carrying two packs put her more at risk!

When did this happen? Island Packers is very good about handing packs up. (They have a much better and safer setup for boarding than the NPS boats) - At least in the last ten years or so....

As I recall, my daughter ended up handing the pack up to one of the Island Packer folks on the dock.

Island Packers is a super outfit! I really enjoyed my trips with them. And they detour for dolphins!

All this sounds reasonable to me. The only two avalanches I have been been near didn't quite hit me (in one I hid behind a big rock). I used to carry the thin red "avalanche cord" but haven't seen that for 40 years! Nowadays we simply don't hike/climb below any loaded slopes when the NW avalanche center reports any hazard at all. We have found plenty of places to hike and snow shoe and climb and sky w/o tons of snow lurking above us.

An interesting piece on the Half Dome situation - Here

I suppose it is just too much of a draw to just rip the cables out. Either that or just charge a whole lot for the permits so that even in a crazy year, you make more money than you spend on rescues. I don't know...but most of those people don't have any idea what they may or may not be getting into.

This whole situation is a pretty good example of why my personal preference is for the less well known areas...

I carry some rope on overnight hikes. I use it as a ridge line for my lean-to. If I ever needed it in an emergency I probably wouldn’t be able to get to it fast enough as it is usually buried in my pack.

As a chimney sweep I once tried to throw a long length of rope over a snow covered house. I was unsuccessful but the customer lent me his kayak rescue rope. It was a floating line in a canvas bag. I anchored the end of the rope and threw the bag out over the house with great ease. As the bag went out it took the rope with it, laying it over the roof so I could tie it securely on the other side. It worked so well I had my wife make me a bag system which I have used several times now. The neat thing is, it never tangles as it comes out of the bag. I don’t need floating rope and so it cost a whole lot less than the kayak setup. I have never taken the bag line hiking but it might not be a bad idea. It is an easy way to throw a rope to a person in trouble.

Howie

I have bagged all my ropes for the last several years; it works quite well. You can throw the rope more accurately,or, if on rappel, simply hang the rope bag from your harness and pay it out as you descent. I understand that Yosemite SAR (which as far as I know developed this technique) bagged their special El Capitan rope (3000 feet long) in a military duffel bag.