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#161805 - 02/06/12 03:02 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: aimless]
billstephenson Offline
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Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By aimless
The chlorine in tablet form for hikers is chlorine dioxide and does not form the sort of organic contaminants you are referring to. It is the chlorine in household bleach you have to be careful about.


Thank you, that's good to know. But there must still be something left behind, what is it, and do we want to filter it out?
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#161813 - 02/06/12 08:22 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: Steadman]
Jackamo Offline
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Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 50
Loc: Central Oregon
Originally Posted By Steadman
New Jersey drivers might be nuts, but the surf can be good, particularly in South Jersey.


thats one thing im looking forward to, if the move happens, i did alot of surfing in florida and miss it. from what ive seen of the oregon coast, theres surf, but not much beach to speak of, just rocks and cliffs...

im interested to see the hiking camping situation, im hoping jersey is near the catskills, my favorite book growing up was "my side of the mountain"
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#161988 - 02/11/12 01:46 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: wandering_daisy]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

I use chlorine dioxide which in theory takes 15 minutes, I make sure I give it about 30. I don't have cyst issues where I am. My normal routine is similar to WD's, dinner and tea is of course, boiled, so I use untreated water for that. During the day I will often tank up mid day because I only want to carry about a litre. Usually I stop before I am dry, down the contents of my bag and have a break while I fill and do the aquamira/pristine thing in the contents of my water bag. I then pack up the bag and be sure I've waited a while before my next drink.. never had any issues.
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#161989 - 02/11/12 01:51 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: billstephenson]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By billstephenson
Originally Posted By aimless
The chlorine in tablet form for hikers is chlorine dioxide and does not form the sort of organic contaminants you are referring to. It is the chlorine in household bleach you have to be careful about.


Thank you, that's good to know. But there must still be something left behind, what is it, and do we want to filter it out?


Nothing left behind from the cl02 is going to be big enough to filter. it would be like trying to filter salt from water.

whatever dead or disabled bugs are left in it ain't going to hurt you. after that it's a matter of personal taste, and depends on the water.

For example, some people don't like water with a lot of "glacial silt" in it. and if there is a lot of it it can irritate the bowels. For that you might want a filter, (but warning, I've seen glacial silt clog up more filters..) Some people don't like brown looking water with tannins in it. For that you might need to charcoal filter or god knows whatever other mini backcountry water treatment plant. Me, I just drink it.. but I'm not really a princess about my water. (my coffee, or my scotch, or my hammock is a different story wink )



Edited by phat (02/11/12 01:53 PM)
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#162022 - 02/12/12 11:11 AM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: phat]
BrianLe Offline
member

Registered: 02/26/07
Posts: 1149
Loc: Washington State, King County
Quote:
"For example, some people don't like water with a lot of "glacial silt" in it. and if there is a lot of it it can irritate the bowels. For that you might want a filter, (but warning, I've seen glacial silt clog up more filters..) Some people don't like brown looking water with tannins in it. For that you might need to charcoal filter or god knows whatever other mini backcountry water treatment plant. Me, I just drink it.."

Completely agree with all of the above. If particulates are significant enough that I don't want to drink them (heck, if I even notice them), they're likely to clog a filter --- and in my limited experience at filter clogging, it can happen at a darned inconvenient, uncomfortable time. If it's that bad, filter it out with a bandana, then chemically treat if you're inclined. But if there's that much silt in it, I generally find such situations to be those where I don't bother filtering as the source is generally pretty close!

Tannins --- just think of it as drinking tea. Never a problem, doesn't have any impact that I've seen, except perhaps psychologically. Sometimes it's kind of fun when your water has a little 'character'.
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#162025 - 02/12/12 01:01 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: phat]
billstephenson Offline
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Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
Nothing left behind from the cl02 is going to be big enough to filter. it would be like trying to filter salt from water.


I'm curious, I know a few people that use kitchen chlorine, sounds easy and inexpensive, but the chloramines still bother me, can they be filtered out, or are they too small too?

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#162038 - 02/12/12 01:58 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: billstephenson]
phat Offline
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Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By billstephenson
Quote:
Nothing left behind from the cl02 is going to be big enough to filter. it would be like trying to filter salt from water.


I'm curious, I know a few people that use kitchen chlorine, sounds easy and inexpensive, but the chloramines still bother me, can they be filtered out, or are they too small too?



Yep. it's a chemical. No filter on earth is going to filter out organic/inorganic chemicals. they only catch particulate matter. things made up of many many millions of such chemicals (like a bacteria smile

Rerverse osmosis, or distilling will remove it - you probably don't want to carry what you need for that.

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#162052 - 02/12/12 08:04 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: phat]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By phat
Yep. it's a chemical. No filter on earth is going to filter out organic/inorganic chemicals. they only catch particulate matter.


Thank you phat, that brought it into focus for me.

Ok, so if you could, I'd think you'd want to break the chemical compounds down (or combine them) into the least harmful compounds, but I don't know if the chlorine based disinfectants we use even attempt to do that. I'm sure household chlorine does not.

I guess what bugs me is that I know chlorine is pretty bad stuff, and using it kind of reminds me of that Jack Black movie "Envy" and the "But where does the poo go?" line.

So I looked into it a bit more, and this article sort of confirms my suspicions. They call them "disinfection by-products" (DBPs).

I'm trying to figure out my options for a lighter, smaller alternative to my "Hiker" filter. Around here, boiling water would be best, but that takes time and fuel. I do that for my coffee and cooking, but I can't refill my drinking water while hiking that way.

The questions that remain then are how much free chlorine is left, and what is the ppm of DBPs and their toxicity when you use chlorine dioxide. The first two values are related, as the first goes down the second rises, and they are all variables that are affected by the water source.

So, you really have weigh using chlorine dioxide against some other method or not treating at all.

If you follow other methods this brings up the same questions, but when I think about using a steripen my gut feeling is that it wouldn't result in leaving harmful DBPs behind, or maybe not as many, or as toxic, and there'd be no (added) chlorine.

I'm not losing sleep over this, but I am curious.
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#162055 - 02/12/12 09:51 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: billstephenson]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
The steripen is UV light, so it won't leave anything else in your water. So if you are truly concerned, go for that option.

Me, I'm certain my tap water has *far* more chlorine in it than I will ever pick up backpacking - and note that the illinois study you reference is, while concerned with tap water, actually really concerned with public pools and/or hot tubs.

Public pools put in *buttloads* of chlorine - just see what happens when babies get taken into it.. it's also basically muriatic acid and bleach. - not the same as the Cl02 we use in backpacking land.

So me, I'm actually pretty happy with CL02 - foolproof. nothing to break, and it just works.

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#162057 - 02/12/12 10:11 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: phat]
Barefoot Friar Offline
member

Registered: 01/23/09
Posts: 176
Loc: Houston, Alabama
Originally Posted By phat
...it's also basically muriatic acid and bleach...


You sure? Muratic acid (market name for hydrochloric acid) and bleach, when combined, cause chlorine gas, which was used in WW1 in combat... Nasty stuff, which causes bad coughing and affects the eyes and mucus membranes. It also is what is used to make latex exam gloves smooth so they can be marketed as powderless. The chlorine gas molecules bond with the outer layer of latex molecules, causing the rubber to become less "grabby" -- even super smooth -- which means that the user doesn't need power or lubricant to don the gloves.

I know pool chlorine is pretty strong, though, so maybe you're right. I don't own a pool, so I don't know.


Edited by Barefoot Friar (02/12/12 10:12 PM)
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#162058 - 02/12/12 10:42 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: Barefoot Friar]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By Barefoot Friar

You sure? Muratic acid (market name for hydrochloric acid)


I definately remember the old school muriatic acid treatment we used to use in my grandma's pool.

Newer stuff (pucks, solid treatments etc.) I'm sure is different. Muriatic is dangerous in concentration.

And yes, if you mixed the pool chemicals not in the pool, you make chlorine gas..
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#162094 - 02/13/12 03:04 PM Re: Finding a water source and filtering [Re: phat]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3917
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By phat
Originally Posted By Barefoot Friar

You sure? Muratic acid (market name for hydrochloric acid)


And yes, if you mixed the pool chemicals not in the pool, you make chlorine gas..


Oh yeah, that's right. When I was a young man back in the `70s I cleaned pools in LA and every morning a bunch of "Pool Men" would be at the chemical supplier's loading up their pickups with crates of gallon jugs of chlorine and acid.

We all knew not to mix them of course, and as a rule added them at opposite ends of the pool near return lines so they'd disperse quickly. The risky part was if you got clobbered in an accident, but I never heard of that causing a spill that mixed the two. I do recall being told there was a law requiring them to be separated, but it was never enforced that I know of.

I have no idea of what they do today, but I'd be surprised if they still do that.
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