I am not a sleeping bag guru. This is not a challenge, but a genuine question .

I looked up the JRB and WM offerings and it seems that for a similar temperature rating they are of similar weights. For example:

JRB High Sierra Sniveller quilt
Temperature Rating: 5°-10°
Weight: 29 ounces

WM Versalite sleeping bag
10° F
1 lb 14 oz (30oz)

I would think that the ability to close it up could make a bag it warmer than a quilt should the need arise. When the temps are mild the bag could be used like a quilt. What am I missing?

I have similar bag criteria to the OP. I haven't seen anyone in the thread mention the Marmot Arroyo. Thoughts?

No specific thoughts on the Arroyo, but I have used the Marmot Hydrogen and Helium before "upgrading" ("sidegrading"?) to the WM equivalents, the Megalite and Alpinlite. The Marmot bags were the best I'd used until then (including a 1980s TNF Blue Kazoo, back when North Face was the Gold Standard), and I had no complaints.

The biggest difference I found between them and the WM bags, strictly based on perception and not objective measurement, was rating accuracy. The Marmot bags seemed to be pretty much dead on with their ratings - a 30-degree rating kept me warm at 30, but left me chilly at 25. The WM bags seemed to be good for another 5 degrees: at 25, I was still warm in a bag rated for 30. Also, the WM bags just seemed a bit more "deluxe" in the detailing, while the Marmot was just a fundamentally well-made bag. I can't point to any specifics for this; the WM bags just felt more luxurious when I climbed in them. As I recall, for similar ratings, there was no significant difference in weight or compressibility between a WM Extremelite series bag and a Marmot Element-series bag. In the end, I just like WM better, for no objective reasons.

Thanks for the replies. I may consider the Alpine for me and get the Ultra for my son.

Now to scrape together the money. Anyone in Colorado want to buy a car?

Actually, your body is the only source of heat, regardless of what you think is going on. Bag efficiency is based solely on creating dead air between you and the outside environment. We have had this argument over and over, but the physics of it haven't changed since the first animal hide was used as a blanket thousands of years ago.

I took my new (to me) down bag to A16 to get it cleaned and while I was talking to Peter, the salesperson who helped me, he wrapped the bag over his shoulders. After a couple of minutes he said, hey, I can feel how warm this thing is. That's what it is all about.

Gershon, I would start looking for a used bag. I used Craigslist Reader, a free search program made by CraigsPal. This program will search any and all Craigslist sites on the planet. I found my bag using it. I've seen a number of WM bags. The prices people ask on Craigslist are usually better than on eBay, but be patient, some amazing deals show up. The only catch is that Craigslist sellers aren't always willing to ship, which the usual on eBay, but if your email looks legit and you are willing to pay in advance (I use PayPal), some will. I've bought several things that way and sold a few as well.

A bag seems a really personal item, but you'd be surprised the number of high end bags for sale that people say they bought then rarely used. The Marmot I just bought looks virtually brand new. The seller had both sacks for it (cotton storage bag and stuff sack) and even still had the original hang tag for it.

Tom,

I understand bags don't create heat, I was just explaining how it felt to me. Thanks for the tip on Craigslist.

In my experience - not with the Sniveller, but with the 3 season Hudson River - if your quilt matches your body proportions you are able to tuck in down the sides and sleep warmly.

This is easier in a hammock, but I have been racking up a lot of ground nights with the quilt and done pretty well even when I roll and have to re-tuck. I never sleep well on the ground no matter how warm, and I sleep better not having the bag twisted up around me until I'm strangling. Sub freezing, I'm a quilt gal all the way. Subzero is going to be totally different.

I think what you are missing is the flat factor - the quilt truly opens flat, and can be used on a bed. Which I have done. JRB quilts don't have footboxes sewn in. Also, there is the customer loyalty factor, and... the quilt is cheaper.

Thanks for the input. I can get the Marmot for about $100 off of retail, so if it's a similar quality bag, I'll likely go for the more affordable option.

The Marmot Never Summer 0 degree (a 600 fp bag with EN comfort rating of 2F) is on Sierra Trading post - with the coupon ending today, it's $140. 3 lbs, 14 oz, as I recall.

NOT to argue or disagree with Lori here, just a somewhat different way of looking at the same question --- my immediate response was "you're not missing anything". I.e., when zipped up in mummy mode, I'm convinced that for many (most?) people you are going to get more overall warmth relative to weight carried with a zipped up bag. I, for one, don't remain perfectly still once I'm asleep.

My first down bag was a WM Summerlite, and then the Ultralite followed as a later purchase. The Summerlite was (at the time at least) the lightest (warmth for weight) option that had a full zipper --- so that indeed I can open it up fully to use in quilt mode. It's wonderful, I think, to have a light, warm, full-zip bag that can vary from fully open "quilt mode" to fully zipped mummy mode, where just your nose and mouth are exposed on the colder nights.

To be clear, I don't mean to knock quilts, I just prefer the flexibility of moving from one setup to the other as conditions warrant. At one point I seriously considered getting a JRB No Sniveler or similar on the theory that I might then leave my down jacket at home, but what stopped me was the realization of how often on colder nights I do all my camp chores with my lower body in the sleeping bag and my upper body out of the bag --- but wearing a down jacket or parka.

I still use a Marmot bag from the early 80s that unzips to form a flat quilt, along with a zip in sheet so that it can become a double bag. I bought it for its versatility, especially potential SAR applications. Most of the time I use it as a conventional bag, but the full zip capability indeed makes it extraordinarily versatile.

All the assumptions that you can't get coverage with a quilt are just that.

Like I said, I get into the 20s fine. And if I weren't comfortable you'd bet I'd be in a bag. I find that it's easier to wrap up in a quilt around camp - I don't care as much about my legs as I do about my torso, and if I had it to do over again I might have gotten a wearable quilt plus the JRB sleeves and had full range of my arms (I have to hold the regular quilt in place).

But, quilts aren't for everyone. There are still a lot of people who believe in what they know, they should stick with what's comfortable for them mentally as well as functionally. Lots of folks look at my gear and scratch their heads - some of them lecture me - I keep using it for many reasons, including claustrophobic tendencies. Regardless of all other considerations, for some the ability to kick off the quilt in a hurry is a plus. Currently, one of my quilts is on my bed. Mummy bags aren't good for that either....

Also, consider: JRB has been in business for some time now. Product line has changed as they go along, adding more quilts, more hammock specific quilts, more versatile quilts... and they still sell cold weather quilts rated down to 0. Do small business sell products that don't sell well? Why do I not see many for sale - used quilts on the forums most likely to reach buyers (backpackinglight, hammock forums)?

Which is not to say you should try one... I'm pointing out things that I observed that led me to try one despite being skeptical. My first quilt is a Ray Way - that worked, and it's about the same weight as one of my JRB despite the bulk of it. But it's just not as comfortable.

I was thinking about getting a RayWay quilt to try it out. The price is right and I figured I could deal with the bulk. If you decide to part with yours we can talk price. (ooh, an opportunity for you to get some cash right before Christmas (smile)) But you might like have a backup or loaner handy.

I have used an army poncho liner with and without the poncho. Similar idea to a quilt I guess. I also have a small rectangular summer sleeping bag that packs up almost as small as a Nalgene bottle. It unzips to a flat blanket and I like to have it for travel situations. I stayed in hostels and roadhouses in Alaska where it came in handy.

But like you said, we all have to do what is right for us.

Perry, the Ray Way I have is the warmer one, supposed to work to 20F. I use it as a loaner, mostly, but have thought it might be paired with one of the down quilts for colder weather - it's the same size as the JRB give or take an inch. Though the way it's made the corners are rounded and there's a five inch strip of nylon for assistance in tucking it around you.

Currently it is riding around in a storage bag in the trunk of my car with the cables and the stuck-in-a-snowbank survival gear. Otherwise I would consider selling it to you. I have to admit there is a good bit of sentimental value to it, as it was actually my first DIY project.

They are good quilts for the price and kind of fun to make. The heavier version packs to about the size of a basketball, if you don't over-compress it (Jardine is a bit insistent about not over compression, his stuff sack design for the quilts gives them plenty of breathing room).

To loop back around to comment...

I have been shopping the Marmot line pretty heavily over the past few weeks, looking for a bag for SAR - in 3 seasons I use my quilts, I don't winter camp, but SAR is not necessarily about that. Base camp or wilderness bivouac, I am anticipating needing warmer gear without piling all three quilts in the backpack.

The Sawtooth you have is rated 15F but the comfort rating on the EN posted for the bag is 26F. (That's the comfort rating for women, the number for men is a bit lower.)

For my needs I surveyed the 0 degree offerings - of the 0 degree bags they list, I find variation in the EN ratings ranging from 17 to 0 - meaning not all bags are created equal. Rather than picking up the Marmot Teton 0 degree EN rated to 17F for comfort, I got the deal mentioned above on the Never Summer 0 degree, EN rated to 2F for comfort. I am anticipating that with layers and the bag I might get to -10 comfortably, and survive -20.

While the Never Summer I ordered is only 600 fp... it's not my preference to go out in winter at all, or use a bag. But the price and the rating are what they are, and at a later time if I find winter camping agrees with me and my economics improve, I may donate the bag to another SAR volunteer and upgrade.

You should post back and let us know how the Sawtooth does for you - I bet you will be happy with it. Marmot's higher end bags get great reviews.

The Western Mountaineering bags can't be beat. I used my Megalite in 24 degrees and was warm, it's a 30 or 35 degree bag.
Santa brought me a WM Versalite 10 degree bag for Christmas.
I looked but could not find a sale on WM bags. They sell so good I was told they never have a sale. EVERY sales person I have talked to at a high dollar outdoor store or online store has a WM bag, usually two.
Go ahead, pull the trigger!

I forgot. I sold a car a few months ago and the next payment is in January. (It was to a friend and I don't get to into keeping track of money.)

So Tuesday, I order the bags.

Oh, I read Chinese gear is likely to go up a lot next year due to increasing salaries in China. Made in USA will be more competitive.

Second on the Western Mountaineering. Once you go top of the line you never go back. Outside of moving to quilts, I have pushed my WM Caribou 35* to 18* inside a light bivy and with a good Montbell Thermawrap set w/ fleece socks and beanie. It is a lot of money, but they hold their resale value very well and will literally last you a lifetime with proper care.

I'm a fan of high-quality down bags or quilts. I really like the Jacks R Better quilts and Western Mountaineering bags. Save your money and get a good one or two and they will last you a very long time. I bought a WM MegaLite bag on eBay for 1/3 off and sold it on eBay two years later after ~30 nights' careful use, still in great shape, for more than I paid for it.

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but Enlightned Equipment makes great quilts for a reasonable price!