Winter Snow Sport Gear
Winter Hiking & Snowshoeing
Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
BackcountryGear.com
backcountry gear

---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance


Stay Healthy--Eat Well

MARY JANES FARM ORGANIC MEALS

Mary Janes Farm Organic Backcountry Meals

NATURAL HIGH GOURMET MEALS

Natural High

 

Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#158674 - 12/13/11 03:31 PM MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter
Banjopickin Offline
member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 58
Loc: NC
Hey folks,

Ive come into possesion of an MSR Pocket Rocket. I already use and love my DIY alcy stove so I really dont need it as a stove most of the year. However, I want to take it this winter to use for melting snow. Ive heard all kinds of things about cannister stoves and low temps, but opinions seem to vary. Everything from they work great to they are a useless crap in the snow and cold temps.

Ive concluded through research online that efficiency is directly related to the temperature of the cannister. Also that the ingredients of the fuel canisters vaporize at different temps(iso-butane around 20deg. and Propane well into the negatives), and this affects performance. So my questions are A.) has anyone used a PR in winter conditions and how was the experience? B.) What are some ways to increase fuel efficiency? C.) what are some ways to keep the fuel warm? D.) what are the limits of this little stove?

This stove was a gift and 99% of my Winter adventures dont require snow as a water source. But it would be great to know that I can use this little guy for some treks where water is scarce and snow is in abundance. I value the input of the members of this forum much more than online reviews so thanks for any and all replies.

Cheers.
BP
_________________________
Climb the Mountains and get their good tidings...
-John Muir

Top
#158683 - 12/13/11 05:26 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: Banjopickin]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 848
Loc: Torrance, CA
Originally Posted By Banjopickin
So my questions are A.) has anyone used a PR in winter conditions and how was the experience? B.) What are some ways to increase fuel efficiency? C.) what are some ways to keep the fuel warm? D.) what are the limits of this little stove?


a) I have not
b) As someone with a PhD in Mechanical Engineering I doubt efficiency plays much of a role at all with this issue
c) submerge the fuel canister in water is a sure fire way to keep it running. Lots of people take less drastic measures, such as putting a foam pad under the canister and sticking the canister in there sleeping bag overnight.
d) you have to keep the vapor pressure above the atmospheric pressure in order to keep fuel flowing in the right direction. If you are at elevation (with lower atmospheric pressure) you can run the stove at lower temperatures. The vapor pressure of the fuel depends on the mixture you are using. So... there are some variables, but the rule of thumb I have heard is you can run the stove down to about 20F. You can run it lower if the canister is standing in water. As long as you can keep the water liquid the stove should run.

Top
#158689 - 12/13/11 06:10 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: BZH]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
I've used my Primus Micron at 7200 ft. down to about +20F using a small Snowpeak canister, so the PR should have about the same performance. I wouldn't count on it to work in temps a whole lot colder than that, especially at lower elevations, but other factors, such as the type of canister will make a difference.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#158692 - 12/13/11 06:40 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: TomD]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6401
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
It isn't the stove but the fuel that is a problem at low temps. Be sure your fuel canister contains a mix of isobutane and propane. Butane (as opposed to isobutane) won't vaporize below freezing, and IMHO gets sluggish below about 40*F. Isobutane gets sluggish around 20*. In either case, it will let the propane burn off first, leaving you with an unresponsive stove.

The canister needs to be warm when you start it and needs to be kept warm during use (evaporation of fuel while in use chills the canister back down below freezing in a big hurry). You can put the canister in your armpit under your insulating jacket and dance around (it feels like a lump of ice--it will really wake you up in the morning!) for about 15 minutes. For the morning, you can keep the canister in the bottom of your sleeping bag overnight along with your water filter, camera and other items with batteries, causing lots of clunking every time you turn over during the night. I haven't tried the pan of water (requires carrying an extra pan), but I do set the canister on a circle cut from an old blue foam pad. I use a windscreen to keep the canister warm while the stove is burning and for more efficient use of fuel. IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTE: Canister stove manufacturers say not to use a windscreen. Translation, be very careful if you do! Feel the canister frequently and don't let it get hot. An exploding canister will ruin your whole trip, if not worse! The windscreen I use goes only 7/8 of the way around the canister when my pot is on top.

I've used the above methods (starting with warm canister and using the blue foam and windscreen while the stove is burning) at 15*F (at 4900 ft. elevation) and it worked fine. Much colder than that, you should invest in a remote canister stove that allows you to use the canister upside down (that solves the problem of the propane burning off first). Those can be used around 0*F or below, so I've read (I don't camp when it's that cold, thank you!). Or buy a white gas powered stove, put up with the extra weight of stove, fuel bottle and fuel, and get warm pumping it instead of dancing with icy canister in your armpit. laugh

Be sure to warm up your butane lighter before trying to use it, too! If it gets cold enough, it may not light even if prewarmed. Take matches as a backup.


Edited by OregonMouse (12/13/11 07:43 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#158697 - 12/13/11 07:48 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: OregonMouse]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
I can only add that I have used my PR one early Spring snow trip to see how it would do, knowing it will consume lots of fuel which costs more than white gas, so take that into consideration. Over on Backpacking Light, HJ has a good discussion on this.
Duane

Top
#158698 - 12/13/11 08:00 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: TomD]
twinmike Offline
member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 43
Loc: Holbrook, AZ.
While hiking in Chile, I bought a international Exponent Coleman because its multi fuel that can use gasoline or kerosene, (diesel) with a starter paste, its worked in any temperature even down to 5C degrees and at any altitude 3400 meters but it was smelly. As you may know petrol and diesel fuels are international and available everywhere. Now I am limited to Arizona and New Mexico high mountains. Do you still use the Micron, as it sounds like a pretty good stove? In some areas I am planning to hike this summer open fires are to be banned
_________________________
Many reach for distant shores only to run to the safest harbor.

Top
#158703 - 12/13/11 08:30 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: Banjopickin]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
setting the fuel on a piece of foam will insulate it from the 32 degree snow, but the cannister will still get cold as the warm gas evaporates off and carries with it the heat of evaporation. The cannister MUST cool off proportionately to the amount of gas that comes out, which is to say that its a loosing battle unless you can supply more heat - it has to cool. Butane stops being a gas at around 32 F, and isobutane around 15 F, but Propane will go to -40 F or C, so isobutane or isobutane with propane would be better.

You do not need a pan of warm water, only a pan lid.
BUT
When you are sitting in a blizzard melting snow and you have to keep pouring precious hot water into the inverted pan lid that the flue sits on, you'll wish you had white gas instead.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

Top
#158705 - 12/13/11 09:04 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: Jimshaw]
Banjopickin Offline
member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 58
Loc: NC
Thanks for all the input yall. I think that since I have the stove I will just tinker with it in the yard to see what comes of it. Im definitely going to give it a few trial runs as soon as we get our next good snow. If need be I dont mind keeping the fuel canistr warm in my bag or doing the watusi with it tucked in my coat on cold mornings grin. Also, using a windscreen with the canister on a foam pad should keep the canister warm enough during use not to affect performance right? If using a windscreen, what type of ventilation are we talking about around the canister? A small gap in the screen or a horseshoe/ "C" shape. I wouldnt want the canister to blow up and kill me.

Thanks.
BP


Edited by Banjopickin (12/13/11 09:20 PM)
_________________________
Climb the Mountains and get their good tidings...
-John Muir

Top
#158706 - 12/13/11 09:36 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: twinmike]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
i still have the Micron, but there are other stoves just as good or better. The Soto is interesting-
http://www.rei.com/product/785338/soto-od-1r-micro-regulator-stove

If I was buying another canister stove, I'd try that one, but I did see the Micron on sale at Cabela's website for half the price of the Soto-
http://www.cabelas.com/camp-blind-stoves-brunton-primus-micron-stove-1.shtml


Edited by TomD (12/13/11 09:59 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#158840 - 12/16/11 10:26 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: Banjopickin]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
Originally Posted By Banjopickin
Ive concluded through research online that efficiency is directly related to the temperature of the cannister. Also that the ingredients of the fuel canisters vaporize at different temps(iso-butane around 20deg. and Propane well into the negatives), and this affects performance. So my questions are A.) has anyone used a PR in winter conditions and how was the experience? B.) What are some ways to increase fuel efficiency? C.) what are some ways to keep the fuel warm? D.) what are the limits of this little stove?
BP,

You're research is pretty on target. If you keep the canister warm, you can use a PR in some pretty cold temperatures. I've got a pretty short and sweet post on my blog that covers the basics: Cold Weather Tips for Gas Stoves . If you want to dig around and read some of my other posts, you can geek out on the details, but that link should give you a pretty practical working method.

Hope it's helpful,

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

Top
#158841 - 12/16/11 10:31 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: hikerduane]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
Originally Posted By hikerduane
I can only add that I have used my PR one early Spring snow trip to see how it would do, knowing it will consume lots of fuel which costs more than white gas, so take that into consideration. Over on Backpacking Light, HJ has a good discussion on this.
Duane
I don't know. That HJ character sounds a little questionable to me. wink Hi, Duane.

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

Top
#158842 - 12/16/11 10:35 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: OregonMouse]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
BP,

What OregonMouse said is pretty on target.

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

Top
#158945 - 12/19/11 01:26 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: Hikin Jim]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
HJ, I'll have to slip the mods a few more bucks each to handle you. smile
I was out again this last weekend, although only car camping in my pu. Snow on the ground, temps down to the mid 20's, no thermometer this trip, they are all on my packs. Used my 425E, embossed 8, 22B, the turbo charged 45 had a plugged jet. The spaghetti was good, would have been better with garlic and Italian sausage. Pancakes yesterday AM were great, even with the cold, imitation butter flavored syrup.
Duane

Top
#159798 - 01/07/12 02:13 AM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: hikerduane]
Hikin Jim Offline
member

Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 230
Loc: Orange County, CA, USA
Dang gone it Duane, no fair listing out all those nice stoves without some photos. Argh!

HJ
_________________________
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving

Top
#159822 - 01/07/12 11:40 AM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: Hikin Jim]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
HJ, I'll have to see if it I can figure out how to do that here. If I was able to do a avatar finally after all these years here, maybe I can post photos too. Or the other way is for non-stovies to visit CCS where I have a few photos in the Action Gallery under my Tamarack Flat report. Bping in the cold again today after the Post Office opens as I need to pick up a couple stoves hopefully, one of your stoves and a stove from NZ, a rare 41.:)
Duane

Top
#160052 - 01/10/12 04:23 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: hikerduane]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 931
Loc: Knoxville, TN
I used the Pocket Rocket at Mt. LeConte (6,500 feet) in March. The air temperature was probably in the 40s due to the wind. It was first time I noticed performance problem. But to be fair, I had it set on the snow. It took longer to boil water. Afterward there was snow stuck to bottom of the canister. I learn I should keep the canister off snow if possible, and I think the elevation might have had a little bit to do with it too compare to boiling at 1,000-5,000 feet.
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

Top
#160061 - 01/10/12 07:23 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: ETSU Pride]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
You are partly right. Cold affected the canister. I use a piece of blue foam (from the ever popular blue sleeping pad) on snow. However, canisters work better at altitude, not worse due to the pressure differential-liquids boil off at lower temperatures the higher you go. That's why you see old photos of climbers at high altitude using hanging canister stoves in the Himalayas. In spite of the cold, they are so high up the canisters still work. My Micron worked at 7,500 at about 25F or a bit less using a small Snowpeak canister.

Here is a pretty good explanation without a lot of physics-
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html

If anyone knows of a test done on canister stoves in an altitude chamber, let me know.


Edited by TomD (01/10/12 07:40 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#160069 - 01/10/12 09:59 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: TomD]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
In my practical experience with them, I've never noticed much affect by altitude - mostly temperature.. pretty easy to deal with down to about -5C, below that you have to be a bit more careful, and below about -10C you really have to baby the cartridge to make sure it starts out warm i.e. keep it in your sleeping bag.

of course there is winter and there is winter.. I regularly take one out in temperatures I expect to see below freezing. I just don't take one for deep deep cold, and esp if I'm gonna melt snow for water - by that time you tend to need so much fuel you're better off with white gas.




Edited by phat (01/10/12 10:02 PM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#160074 - 01/10/12 10:45 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: phat]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Phat, is that stove I see sticking out there the weird English one? I think that was you that had it.


Edited by TomD (01/10/12 10:46 PM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#160076 - 01/11/12 12:04 AM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: TomD]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By TomD
Phat, is that stove I see sticking out there the weird English one? I think that was you that had it.


Nope - it's Swiss.. a genuine Borde Bombe. This wee beastie:



It's the only white gas stove that weighs only a little bit more than my snow peak plus a cartridge. and the fuel reservoir very conviently starting with about a half cup of water in my platy into that pot you saw in the last picture, will melt enough snow to fill my 2 litre platy, and then the pot again to boil for tea and dinner.. smile

It's drawbacks are I know it's not *that* durable so I baby it (it's unobtainium for the most part) compared to say, a whisperloud or svea.. It's sort of my preferred solo winter jobby.. but if I expect to be out a long time or with two people I take the svea.. If I'm going to be melting snow for three or more (small scale industrial conversion of white gas to liquid water) then the whisperloud comes out of the depths.. the stove weight starts to pale when compared to the litres of white gas that start to be carried for that wink


Edited by phat (01/11/12 12:10 AM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#160077 - 01/11/12 12:04 AM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: TomD]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Borde Bomb.

They fetch a nice price still. Especially if you have all the tools/parts.
Duane

Top
#160080 - 01/11/12 02:06 AM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: hikerduane]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Yep, that's the one. Couldn't remember anything about it.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top
#160098 - 01/11/12 11:46 AM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: TomD]
ETSU Pride Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/10
Posts: 931
Loc: Knoxville, TN
Originally Posted By TomD
You are partly right. Cold affected the canister. I use a piece of blue foam (from the ever popular blue sleeping pad) on snow. However, canisters work better at altitude, not worse due to the pressure differential-liquids boil off at lower temperatures the higher you go. That's why you see old photos of climbers at high altitude using hanging canister stoves in the Himalayas. In spite of the cold, they are so high up the canisters still work. My Micron worked at 7,500 at about 25F or a bit less using a small Snowpeak canister.

Here is a pretty good explanation without a lot of physics-
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_faq.html

If anyone knows of a test done on canister stoves in an altitude chamber, let me know.


Thanks for the link. My knowledge on canister just went up!!!
_________________________
It is one of the blessings of wilderness life that it shows us how few things we need in order to be perfectly happy.-- Horace Kephart

Top
#160166 - 01/11/12 09:23 PM Re: MSR Pocket Rocket in Winter [Re: hikerduane]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By hikerduane
Borde Bomb.

They fetch a nice price still. Especially if you have all the tools/parts.
Duane


I have everything including the box - I got it brand new...

I paid nothing for it. so it's not for sale.

How'd I pull that off?

Well.. I have a lot of European Friends. We work on a free software project. some of us have infected them badly with the hiking bug, and it's contagious.. (Innerly we joke that OpenBSD is a hiking group with a serious computing problem)

I've drug them down lots of canadian stuff, I usually do the legwork for them. Did West coast trail a number of years ago with some for their first time, including a friend from Zurich. I was much lighter than the rest of them and so the conversation would turn to packweight sometime and some of the stuff I did to keep the weight I carried down.



On the last night on the trail, around the beach fire in Michigan, the conversation turned to winter, and I mentioned I didn't use alcohol then, I took white gas (for the reasons I had already outlined here). I mentioned it was heavier except that no good really small white gas stove existed except this crazy old german/swiss thing that occasionaly showed up used and vastly overpriced on ebay.

My swiss friend remembered this.. about a year later, when I couldn't make it to an event, and was kind of down about it, the dirtbag managed to 1) find one of them *new* in zurich, in a trekking store, 2) buy it, 3) send it back with a local who smuggled it into my office and stuck it on my desk as a gift.

When I walked into my office I was having, well, a crappy day. I recall seeing this box, and registering.. "I know what that is, but why is it here.." It was completely surreal. I was really quite shocked and, well, it was a real pick me up. I couldn't believe someone would remember that from an on trail conversation in passing a year before.. and act on it, to say thank you - one of the more thoughtful gifts I've ever received.

Anyway, I'll never sell that stove wink

And he also helped organize the herd for the wedding I put together for another couple friends on west coast trail, allowing me to yoyo the trail and still get everything in place without worrying about the newbs.

So, now I owe him. I have 23 days in the rockies planned for him this summer, as unbelievably, he's hardly been in there.



Edited by phat (01/11/12 09:25 PM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Butane Stove
by Jim M
12/15/17 08:05 PM
Knife, Fire Starter, Ignition Source
by Jim M
12/11/17 07:34 PM
Bivvy bag with wired peak
by Petro1234
12/10/17 01:06 PM
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Greetings - and a question
by valongi
12/11/17 11:35 AM
Just found out about UCO candles
by toddfw2003
11/30/17 08:41 AM
Hitting the eagle rock loop, Ark in 3 days
by toddfw2003
11/19/17 11:31 AM
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
Plant based insulation...
by billstephenson
11/18/17 02:58 PM
lightest grommets to use
by toddfw2003
10/22/17 06:13 PM
avalibility of thin ti rod
by the-gr8t-waldo
01/26/17 04:45 PM
Featured Photos
Breakneck Ridge, New York
May 2012 Eclipse, Lassen Park
New Years Eve 2011
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
1 registered (), 24 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
runningman55, ponchoman, valongi, Atkinson J, Dcarpenter
12471 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
HOME
Backpacking.net
Family Hiking
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Outdoor Gear Daily Deals
Outlets, Sales, Bargains

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum.com