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#158643 - 12/12/11 05:38 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: billstephenson]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Bill
Pressurization? Are we not talking about a tent?

ANyway the real reason they do it that way is because thats what the British Expeditionary forces did it in Canada and modern hot tent campers up there wear the same clothes made of the same material and use the same tents and stoves. No one is interested in changing or in pressurised tents or in any new fangled way of doing anything. The companies sell to the traditionalists and have an image to maintain.

Someone wrote in a year ago saying that he and his girlffriend were going camping and how do you heat a tent. A bunch of people told him you do not heat a tent, you carry the right gear to stay warm.

The subject of the thread is "winter bag choice" not "how to avoid buying a winter bag".
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#158670 - 12/13/11 03:13 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Quote:
Pressurization? Are we not talking about a tent?


I was talking about using an outside air source to supply the firebox inside the tent, as opposed to sucking air from inside the tent. I contended it would be more efficient. The article I linked to contends it is not, at least as it pertains to buildings. I remain unconvinced.

But I'd still like a warmer sleeping bag too wink

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#158845 - 12/16/11 11:30 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: TomD]
twinmike Offline
member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 43
Loc: Holbrook, AZ.
If you are still for a better sleeping bag I suggest you look at the newer materials out there. Some are much better than goose down and are not affected by Moisture. One company fits inside a two litre bottle and is good for -10. There are new models that even heat themselves
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#158846 - 12/17/11 12:12 AM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: twinmike]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
For those who want to know what I bought, I found a Marmot Alba -10F down bag on Craigslist. It will be here in Monday. I've seen a few Pumas, but the cheap ones got snatched up quickly. It's not Goretex, but Goretex doesn't work in really cold weather anyway. If this bag fits into my BD Winter Bivy, I'm set.
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#158856 - 12/17/11 12:16 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: TomD]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
TomD said'
"but Goretex doesn't work in really cold weather anyway"

Well Tom there are some differing opinions on that, smile I suppose space is pretty cold. You tossed out an idea as simple fact that a lot of pro-goretex folks do not agree with. It is true that the "northern" campers don't use it, but thats because they are very much into traditional only. wink

I think it would be wrong to send the message goretex doesn't work in the cold without a great deal of research and arguements. The breathable fabric people go to great lengths to bring in outdoor writers - like Jason - and demonstrate to them in their laboratoryies, how things work. There is al too much false science around with atitude replacing experience.

Now that I've said that I hope you aren't offended - its not a personal thing, just a lot of misinformation gets mixed up with reality to a point where the (maybe) misinformation seems correct.
Jim smile
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#158865 - 12/17/11 02:20 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: Jimshaw]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
No offense taken, but from everything I've read, Goretex doesn't perform well, if at all, in subzero weather if you are working hard and generating a lot of moisture-the reason being that moisture freezes inside the jacket or bag and prevents the liner from breathing. In my case, I haven't been in sub zero in my Goretex parka to test those results, so I based what I said on what the experience of others has been.

I do know that Goretex doesn't seem to work all that well in muggy weather either (cold and humid), at least mine didn't, but maybe it is better now.

In any event, my new bag just has some DWR coating of some kind, so at least for me, it is a moot point. My MacPac bag isn't Goretex or any of the other fabrics like it either and I've never had any problems with it at all, so I don't expect any with this bag under the conditions I intend to be in.
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#158885 - 12/17/11 11:25 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: twinmike]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By twinmike
If you are still for a better sleeping bag I suggest you look at the newer materials out there. Some are much better than goose down and are not affected by Moisture. One company fits inside a two litre bottle and is good for -10. There are new models that even heat themselves


Better than goose down in what way?

I very much doubt that there is any bag that fits in a two liter anything that works to -10. Plenty of bags make outrageous claims, many of them are lies.

If you're meaning that synthetics stay warmer when wet - that's only partially true. Both types of bag are miserable things when truly wet through.

_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158889 - 12/18/11 05:15 AM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: lori]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
I'm with Lori on this. It would be interesting to see some specifics.

A wet bag is a wet bag, and it is no fun. Synthetics will simply dry faster.

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#158902 - 12/18/11 04:54 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: lori]
twinmike Offline
member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 43
Loc: Holbrook, AZ.
lori, you are way out of date, down bags went the way of the dodo bird. down bags flattens way to easy and there fore has cold spots, when even a little damp it loses its insulation properties quickly, your need to check out the world of change.These new bags are warmer than down and much lighter in weight. And much smaller. Doubt it, check it out first and better yet try them.

One of the major players in the field of sleeping bags, one of many is Reflexcell, it ha one that is less then a pound for three seasons or 385 grams
For a package of 12 by 9 by just 3 inches, that can store inside your shirt.
The militaty calls them casualty blankets and they are standard for military personnel in every country that operates in high north climates. Most places they called Blizzard blankets. They also listed as biotactical tube tents, cost about $90. You can sleep directly on the snow with them.
Some have pull strings on top and bottom, they're in the survival gear pac's on every AH-64D that operates in northern climates. The army uses them because they work. The army does not use down sleeping bags.
Most of all down bags takes a lot of maintanence to stay in good shape. What you must remember is that the so called traditionalist means sticking to old rules that no longer apply. Like sticking to a horse when a car is available. Things have changed. I've talked to traditionalist to claim to have a down bag for years but only use them a few days a year. Try using a down bag everyday for a month and see what happens.
_________________________
Many reach for distant shores only to run to the safest harbor.

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#158903 - 12/18/11 05:36 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: twinmike]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Well, you had me going until I looked at Blizzard blankets. They are "Space Blankets" or "Emergency Blankets". We're all familiar with those, and, while you might survive a cold night with one, they are not on par with a down sleeping bag.

They can be a good addition to your sleeping gear though. I've used them over and under my bag with good results.
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"You want to go where?"



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#158917 - 12/18/11 06:52 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: billstephenson]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Upstate NY
I looked it up too. I do grant them that some of them are a little more than just space blankets, but not much. Even the on the company website they say in winter you will not be comfortable, but should be able to survive in all but the most extreme conditions. Well, my down bags and quilts allow me to be warm and comfortable even in the most extreme conditions.

Even the military applications are described as for emergency situations, most notably for casualties. I highly doubt these are being issued currently as the primary sleeping bag system for the US, or any other countries military personnel.
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#158919 - 12/18/11 07:09 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: twinmike]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By twinmike
Things have changed. I've talked to traditionalist to claim to have a down bag for years but only use them a few days a year. Try using a down bag everyday for a month and see what happens.


As a matter of fact I have used down gear many, many many times, and obviously more than you! Try every month, multiple nights per month, and on longer trips too.

I trust my down gear much more than your judgment. It has not failed me in any way you describe. You clearly have some preconceptions that are misinformed by people who don't understand how to use gear.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158921 - 12/18/11 08:32 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: lori]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
I believe this is the current US Army Modular Sleep System-
http://www.imsplus.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=29786

The bags use Polarguard HV for insulation, but the total weight is about 7 pounds. This is a three part system (four including the stuff sack), not a single bag and it certainly won't fit in a 2 liter container.

Here is some info on the Polargard-
http://www.spgear.org/gear/4562/manatee-lg-rh.html
This reads like a TNF press release, but it does give some facts about the Polarguard.


Edited by TomD (12/18/11 08:36 PM)
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#158952 - 12/19/11 04:15 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: TomD]
twinmike Offline
member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 43
Loc: Holbrook, AZ.
No, not that one, but its close. The one I am talking about is half the weight of the Northface Cats meow, which is almost three pounds. I have an email here that says that implus is a discount store with look alike miliary equipment and that it is illegal to buy military equipment. It may be a look alike made in China. Here is the link to the ONE pound survival sleeping bag good to 20 degrees and a link to where it comes from.
http://www.blizzardsurvival.com/section.php/2/122f018f0a4d4b9e049dfce35c99ee4e
and

http://www.ussartf.org/survival_wilderness.htm
We work on power lines runs called peaks and we have to take our own equipment. This crew has twelve. WE don't have time to fluff things up and brush off down bags. Its stuff it and go sometims it is wet or dry. They have to earn their keep. So one of th crew found these sleeping bags. As one person said on previous chat, horses are for traditionalist but we have cars now. So I posted on general site a question on that subject. http://www.blizzardsurvival.com/section.php/4/122f018f0a4d4b9e049dfce35c99ee4e
The camping version is far warmer than Down bags. and so much smaller.
FYI, comment on this , we all started with great expectations on sleep gear and we all started to use down bags, they are great but they wear out with constant use. Two of these new bags will keep you warm as low as 0F even direct sleeping on the snow. Check them out
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Many reach for distant shores only to run to the safest harbor.

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#158956 - 12/19/11 04:37 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: twinmike]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 656
Loc: Upstate NY
This is NOT analogous to horse vs car.

20*F isn't very cold. Like I said before those are "survival" items and would keep you alive, but not very comfortable (as per the companies website). Far warmer than down bags? You et al keep stating this without a direct comparison. Show me a bag which is lighter, packs smaller and is equally comfortable not "should keep you alive in all but the most extreme conditions."

I am not sure you have even read the links you even put. The usage of these bags by the military, as I stated earlier are for trauma cases, to prevent hypothermia. They are NOT the issued sleeping gear for the soldiers.

On the point about Mil-spec. One cannot buy US military gear (except surplus), but Mil-spec is made to the "same specifications" and thus similar enough that one could hardly tell the difference.
_________________________
http://ducttapeadk.blogspot.com

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#158973 - 12/19/11 08:12 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: DTape]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
If it were comfortable at all, someone would be making it and selling it for a bunch of money.

Still not buying that it works. Ain't winter gear (see thread title). I'll keep what works reliably and repeatedly, and down will last decades...
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#158977 - 12/19/11 09:26 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: twinmike]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
All I can say is that I have used down bags with great success and comfort for many years. I have one that is twenty years old' that has seen extensive use' and still functions quite well. You can't abuse a down bag and deliberately trash it, but I have used mine in work and SAR situations, not just for recreation, and I find that they are very durable, provided that they are given minimal, basic care.

Synthtics have their place, but to date I don't believe that anything equals the weight/warmth ratio of quality down.

Thinking of another thread on this forum that you initiated, I guess this makes me a traditionalist -"Ya sure, ze old vays are best..."


Edited by oldranger (12/19/11 09:28 PM)

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#158980 - 12/19/11 10:30 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: finallyME]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
My bag just showed up and it looks great and very warm. I would much rather be inside it than some glorified space blanket, but if that is what anyone wants to use, have at it.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#158988 - 12/19/11 11:50 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: TomD]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Tom
Glad you got your bag and like it. I guess it fits you right? I know you used two bags in a bivy for a long time, this will be nice. grin

Yes Tom, there is lots and lots and lots of discussion - but where are the scientific videos? I've seen some, and I know There is a lot of material available if anyone really cared. You could start with Jason and some of his pro trips to visit manufacturers.

All, I'm afraid the laws of thermodynamics still hold today even though some wild eyed dreamers believe that they can be as well insulated with no loft. If you want to try something not traditional, try it close to home... shocked
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#158991 - 12/20/11 12:52 AM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: Jimshaw]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Jim, yes it fits. A little shorter than my MacPac bag, but it is a long. The MacPac with the overbag and bivy is probably good to about 10F or maybe less. I know I've down to near that in it at Yosemite and it was fine, but this one should be good to around -10F by itself. It has a lot more loft than the MacPac, I noticed that right away. It is only 650 ci down, but then again, I got a pretty good deal on it, so I'm quite happy with it.
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Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#159066 - 12/21/11 05:16 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: twinmike]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah

twinmike, lets put these nay sayers to rest. Can you share your experience with these reflexcell bags? Especially when you slept warm in one below 20F and directly on snow.

Incidentally, a tog rating of 8 is about a 30F bag.
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#159069 - 12/21/11 07:21 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: finallyME]
twinmike Offline
member

Registered: 03/25/11
Posts: 43
Loc: Holbrook, AZ.
This has turned into an emotional subject, more than I ever thought it would be. For December I used my setup nine times. I could not have used a down bag to do this. It was wet snow.I am not wanting anymore return emails from the couple of people out there that just get nasty about this subject. so will private message to you. If you think it will not cause a problem I will then post on the forum.
_________________________
Many reach for distant shores only to run to the safest harbor.

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#159072 - 12/21/11 08:37 PM Re: Winter bag choice [Re: twinmike]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
NOTICE:
No one should be PMing anyone with abusive comments, regardless of the merits of the arguments. If this happens let the moderators know and we will deal with it.

Finally, this thread was started by me to get the answer to one question. It is now a moot point since I bought a bag already, so based on that, and the fact that only the first few posts were on topic, I am going to do something I rarely do, and use my perogative as a moderator to lock the thread.

If anyone wants to continue this argument in another thread, as long as it remains civil, you can do so, but not here and not now.

THIS THREAD IS NOW LOCKED.


Edited by TomD (12/21/11 08:46 PM)
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