Hello,
I'm new to this forum so please correct me if this is posted in the wrong place. I'm a college student, 19yo, avid backpacker, but rightfully low on $$$ and I am looking for a new pack. I've been using an old (really old) Military surplus Alice pack which works well enough but I'd like something a bit more modern (and comfortable). I found two used packs and as far as I can tell they seem practically identical...I'm not picky, but I'm pretty indecisive. So I thought I'd ask on here to see if anyone could sway me toward one or away from the other, etc. The two packs I'm eyeing up are:

ALPS Mountaineering Orizaba backpack
High Peak Kathmandu 70+10 backpack
(also if you could tell me what 70+10 stands for that would be awesome)

These are both available used for the same price (50 clams), well actually the Orizaba is $1.27 more...and both in "excellent" condition.

I live in Allentown, PA but go to school in Pittsburgh. My backpacking conditions vary from New Mexico, Nevada, Utah desert to upstate NY mountains...so I need a pack that can handle pretty much everything (blazing hot to freezing cold and everything in between) I rarely have time to do more than 4 days/nights trekking with school (premed) and work but plan on doing more extended trips in the future, probably a week to 10 days long if I can grow the balls to do it. I'd say I'm pretty fit but like to travel as light as possible (don't we all). If there's any more info that could help guide your opinion I can glady provide it.

Thanks in advance for all the input.

Vinny

First, the "70+10" usually refers to the pack's capacity in liters; the + usually indicates that the pack has an extension collar. This means that the unextended capacity of the pack is 70 liters, and it can "grow" another 10 liters when you need to hold more stuff (like food for a longer trip, or winter clothing.)There are about 60 cubic inches per cubic liter, so that pack could hold 4200 - 4800 cubic inches of load.

A couple of things to keep in mind, though: First, there is no standard for determining pack capacity. Some companies only count the capacity in the main compartment and lid compartment; others count those plus the capacity (real or imagined) in any side pockets, hipbelt pockets, or other pockets that are attached to the pack. Because you may or may not have gear that fits those outside pockets, the effective capacity may be less than the advertised capacity. Second, "70+10" is not a mandatory capacity indicator; the manufacturer would not be prohibited from simply using that as a model number for a much smaller pack (though I've never seen it done.)

Finally, pack size needs to bear a relationship to the load you're carrying. For most of us here, who tend toward the lightweight end of things, that would be an impossibly huge pack; many of us don't take enough to even half fill it. (After a recent housecleaning, I switched to a 45 liter pack for a weekend summer load - and there's probably 5 liters of extra space in it.)

Why don't you give us an idea of what load you'll be carrying in the pack, and then we can try to help you decide. What we'd be looking for might be the total weight you'd carry (except for food and water), and how bulky your gear is (solo tent or 2-person? Synthetic or down bag? How much clothing do you take?) If you don't know this, or haven't yet bought your gear, hold off a bit on the pack - you really should buy it last, if possible, after you know what you'll be carrying.

Finally, check out some of the outlet websites listed in the left sidebar, further down the page. You might also find some really good deals on packs there.

Vincent, have you read the articles on the home page of this site? There's a lot of information on gear selection there, including pack selection. The articles are listed in the left-hand column.

Three items you need to know before shopping for a pack:
*Weight of your gear
*Volume of your gear
*Your torso length (from the knob at the back of your neck to a point level with the top of your hip bones). Get someone else to measure this for you--when I tried it I came out with a different length every time, as much as 3 inches different!

Then you need to check the specs of the pack, usually by going to the manufacturer's website:
* Pack size relative to your torso length (if you're right on the borderline, get the larger size)
*How much weight the pack is recommended to carry (vs. weight of your gear)
*Volume of the pack (vs. volume of your gear)
*Weight of the pack (you don't want the pack to add unnecessary weight)
*Features of the pack (some are nice, but remember that any additional features add unnecessary weight to the pack)

Finally, the most important criteria of all are:
*How well the pack fits you
*How comfortable the pack is with the load you plan to carry

Packs are much like shoes--we are all built differently, so what's comfortable for others may not fit you at all!

EDIT, later:

+2 to everything Glenn said!

You can get a good idea of the pack volume you need by cramming all your gear, plus the volume equivalent of a week's food, into a box and measuring length, width and height. Then multiply the three measurements to get cubic inches. Divide cubic inches by 60 to get liters (close enough since it's an estimate anyway).

And welcome to the site!!!

Just a short note in addition to what others have said. Once you know what you need to fit into your pack and whether it will fit, and how much it all weighs and whether the pack is designed for that much weight, the final critical piece of info is how well does this pack fit you.

Bodies differ and how a pack sits and carries a load can be comforable for one person and chaffing to another person. This is one reason you shouldn't become mesmerized by brand names or the recommendations of other hikers. You won't know if those glowing reports will apply to you until you get a chance to wear the pack, loaded up, and walk around with it. Small discomforts you notice immediately can become huge discomforts after you've walked a long distance.

Some packs are adjustable fit. Some are not. It may take an expert fitter to fit an adjustable pack to your body, or it may be simple as pie. There is no telling beforehand.

So, be sure to test a pack as thoroughly as you can, either in the store with a full load, or after it arrives mail order. And be sure to note the return policy. Fit is important!!

Ok I'll have to get my torso measured sometime, I never even thought of that. Regarding what I bring with me, I have a two-person tent made by Eureka called the Backcountry 2, but lately I got tired of carrying it because its heavier than I'd like and I made a hammock. It's summertime and I've only had to deal with rain once with the hammock so I'm satisfied with that, however I'll definitely switch back to the tent as it starts to cool down.

Clothes: I wear cargo shorts and a tshirt, and bring a pair of lightweight sweatpants, spare tshirt and a long-sleeve shirt. If rain is in the forecast I'll bring a really lightweight windbreaker or poncho.

I use a small alcohol stove I made out of two aluminum cans and carry a small cooking pot with utensils as well. However, usually if permitted I'll cook over a fire. Ive been trying to lighten my medical kit and have it down to a medium sized ziplock bag full of goodies. Like I said, going light is one of my top priorities because I'm the kind of person who will scurry up a rockface to get a better view and dont like to just drudge along the trail with a heavy load. The hammock really helps with that, but I have to bring some mosquito netting, a tarp, and decent amount of rope with that too, and stakes.

Honestly, food and water are by far my heaviest companions when I go out. My knife, compass, headlamp, etc weigh next to nothing and usually stay in a cargo pocket anyways. I've had problems with dehydration in the past, resulting in a few hospitalizations, so I tend to carry much more water than I need, in addition to a filter. I admit I get a bit paranoid about water because I know I need to drink a LOT more than the average person so usually take two nalgene bottles, two military surplus canteens, and an emergency 12oz that stays in the medical kit. This weighs me down significantly, but I'm starting to trust my filter a bit more so trying to get that load lightened as well.

Edit: I forgot to mention I have a synthetic sleeping bag that has not come with me on the last three trips because I get much too hot in it in the summer here. Instead I just carried a bedsheet, but that bag definitely has to fit in the pack too.

I don't want to move us too far from the original question about packs, but I am curious about the amount of water you carry.

I also hike in the eastern US - Ohio, Kentucky, and Indiana, mostly, with the occasional trip into West Virginia or Virginia; I've also done some dayhikes in the Northeast with my son, when he lived in western Massachusetts. Except in a few specific spots, streams have always seemed plentiful; we'd cross at least one each morning and one each afternoon, and often camp very near one in the evening. As a result, I've never carried more than a liter at a time. When we come to a stream, I would take a break, eat a snack, and simply drink my fill over 15 minutes or so, then refill the bottle, and leave with another liter (this meant that I sometimes filled the bottle twice.) Even on hot days, when I knew I'd be drinking a lot, I'd never leave a stream with more than 2 liters.

Are you regularly hiking in areas where water is truly, genuinely scarce? If not, carrying the 4-5 liters you describe seems like an unnecessarily heavy load. (Again, I'm not trying to say you're doing it wrong, just trying to reconcile your experience with mine, since we both hike in the same general region.)

If, in fact, you do need to carry that much, there may be lighter options for containers, such as Platypus bottles or Dromlite bladders, that could save a pound or more. I know that some folks on this site also use plastic soda or bottled-water bottles. A simple step like that might save you a pound or more.

Hope that helps.

I was going to suggest gatorade bottles as they usually have the convenient wider opening. But any of the lightweight plastic drink bottles can work.

Glenn,

I really appreciate the insight. I admit I do not regularly hike in areas where water is truly scarce, and like you said, streams are plentiful in this region. I have had my fair share of problems in the past with dehydration though, and quickly learned that a day without adequate amounts of water for me results in a rather sudden onset of tunnel vision quickly followed by nausea and subsequent loss of consciousness. I think because of instances of that occurring in the past I have always tended to accept that I need to carry more water (clean water). I also had been using a rather outdated filter that was my father's and was a bit skeptical about its performance so vowed to save it for emergencies only. Like I said earlier I'm a pretty cheap bastard, and in college, so for a while the logical solution to saving money and having enough water was to just get used to carrying a lot. I've actually just recently bit the bullet and bought a brand new filter so I do plan on carrying much less with me, but just for my own personal comfort I think I'll still carry two liters at least. Can't wait to get that filter though. When I was a kid I got pretty sick after drinking just a few sips out of a stream (turns out there was a beaver dam upstream, who knew?) so the "0.1 micron, 99.9999% filters" are very reassuring.

I agree that a liter or two is definitely enough water and now that I'm getting a bit more focused on lightening my load, that's probably all I will take like you said. I need to stop myself from always conjuring the "what if?" scenarios when I'm on the trail...maybe I've just read too many "lost in the wilderness" or "lost at sea" adventure stories.

The only reason I knew to ask the question was "been there, done that." When I started backpacking, "They" all said that every backpacker MUST carry 2 liters of water at all times. It took me a while to realize that, when I was constantly arriving at a stream with a liter and a half left, maybe "They" weren't always right. I gradually learned to read water sources and hiking times from the map, and could plan accordingly. Don't cut back cold-turkey; just gradually learn by experience.

Your water containers should be ditched--they are far too heavy! For half the weight of a Nalgene bottle, you can use a 1-liter soda bottle--far cheaper, too, even if you dump the soda instead of drinking it. I don't even want to think about how much those military canteens weigh--probably almost as much as what's inside them!

Platypus containers are among the lightest around, and best of all they can be rolled up to take up almost no space when empty. One 2L Platy to supplement your soda bottles weighs 1.3 oz. and costs $13. If that's over your budget, an extra 2L soda bottle is fine except that it takes up a lot more space when empty. 4 liters will give you plenty enough water capacity for in camp, or for a dry day if you're ridge walking.

OK--Vincent, you are getting some great advice here. And now I am going to add a bit more. If I am doing my math and geometry right, you really don't take that much stuff with you when you go backpacking. I'd guess that you can carry everything in a 50 liter pack, and maybe a smaller one.

If that's the case, then you might want to look at something in that size....which will also be lighter than that 70+10 pack you are considering.

I think that is a great idea actually. I ran a few numbers myself... correct me if I'm wrong but I measured my Alice pack and got the main compartment at 18"x12"x9" = 1944 cubic inches, and each of the three individual side pockets at 9"x5"x5" = 225 cubic inches x 3 pouches = 675 cubic inches. That gives a total of 2619 cubic inches or 42.917 L...and I'd say I stuff that almost to max capacity, but it is certainly never totally full. So a 50L should work out pretty well for me then, now I just need to find some cheap used ones.

You indicated you made a hammock. Have you considered making a pack? You might even start of by using your Alice pack frame and straps and just making a lighter sack.

Useless trivia for the day. ALICE is an acronym for All-purpose Lightweight Individual Carrying Equipment. When I was in the army I was all about learning what the acronyms actually meant.

Don't rule out those outlet web sites - you can sometimes find really good, new packs in the 40 - 60 liter range for under $100. They're often last year's model, but who cares? If it was good then, it's still good.

Also, if you live near an outfitter, go get acquainted. If they don't have any new packs on sale, ask if they have any rental gear or trade-ins they'd like to sell. (My local shop offers 25% off if you trade your old pack in on a new one. I picked up a year-old Deuter ACT Zero 60+10, in like-new condition, for $40; the shop took it in as a trade on a new pack.)

Finally, check out the gear-for-sale section of this forum - you may be able to do quite well there.

I picked up a unused Mountain Smith Cross Country ,on Ebay 2 years ago for 65.00. Nice pack but heavier than needed for trail hiking! I have since made a G4 gossomer from Quest outfitters Kit. If patient good deal can be had on ebay. Key is know what you are looking for and stick to your max price. It took me five monthes of persistence, to find a pack after use I deemed to heavy! Good Luck