Backcountry Forum
Backpacking & Hiking Gear

Backcountry Forum
Our long-time Sponsor - the leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear
 
 
 
BCG Holiday Sale

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
BackcountryGear.com
backcountry gear

---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance


Stay Healthy--Eat Well

MARY JANES FARM ORGANIC MEALS

Mary Janes Farm Organic Backcountry Meals

NATURAL HIGH GOURMET MEALS

Natural High

 

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#151942 - 06/27/11 08:29 AM Does fire take ultralight too far?
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
This is not intended as a thread to discuss the ethics of fires in the backcountry; that's an issue that involves too many variables including where you are hiking, and has been well-discussed in other threads. For purposes of this thread, let's simply accept that in most times and places, campfires would be at odds with Leave-No-Trace practices. I'm also not trying to re-ignite the "light is relative to what you're planning to do" issue; we can safely assume that as an accurate and well-proven point, too.

Instead, I'd like to get some discussion on whether fire is "cheating" at the ultralight game. This question occurred to me after reading another thread in this post, and seeing a headline at BackpackingLight.com (I think it's an ad for their store, not a serious article; but I'm no longer a member there, so I don't know.)

The other thread I read here made the point that one of the trade-offs true ultralighters (and sub-ultralighters) make in order to carry the extremely light loads they carry is to make compromises in warmth: they might choose to take a 30-degree bag when 20-degree lows are predicted, and only a light down vest or sweater, only liner gloves, and lightweight, not midweight, long underwear. The logic is that they're going to do high-mile days and spend very little time in camp, so they'll tolerate not being toasty warm for a lighter load.

The headline at BPL is: "TO BUILD A FIRE: Stave off the chill ... with a warm, comforting blaze..."

That is a strategy that works, no doubt about it (assuming you have the requisite skill to be able to get a fire going when it's been raining all day, and all the available wood is soaked.) However, it seems to me that somehow a line has been crossed here. I have to wonder if part of the UL philosophy has morphed to say that LNT, once held as a near-sacred principle, can now be compromised or ignored in order to shave a few more ounces off the load.

I'm not trashing the ultralight philsophy; far from it. I have benefited greatly by following it generally, though I haven't gone the full route. (Yet.) It changed the way many of us viewed backpacking, from an "assault on the outdoors," with 60 pound packs and everything we could need, ever, to "fitting in to the outdoors," with correspondingly lighter packs. Lessening one's impact, rather than leaving one's mark, was a natural fit with the minimalist style you adopt as an ultralighter. It sparked a revolution in gear, as cottage makers forced the big companies to drastically redesign their gear or risk losing a growing market segment.

I'm just wondering if we're reaching the point of going too far in the relentless pursuit of weight reduction, and if it has now become an end unto itself, rather than a means to an end. (I hopped off the UL train at 17 pounds, and I'll add the heavier bag and jacket without a second thought; I still don't light fires.)


Edited by Glenn (06/27/11 12:13 PM)
Edit Reason: One additional thought

Top
#151950 - 06/27/11 12:01 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Glenn]
BZH Offline
member

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 847
Loc: Torrance, CA
I agree ultralight goes too far when it infringes upon LNT. Packing out garbage is added weight, you can build a shelter out of cedar bows, etc ...

How about disposable products that are lighter weight than reusable products? I have a friend who packs in a new emergency blanket every trip that he uses as a ground cloth. He packs it out, but it ends up in a landfill, when he could have used a reusable sheet. Is that antithetical to LNT?

It blows my mind when people spend inordinate amount of time, energy, and money to get out into "pristine" wilderness and then destroy it.


Edited by BZH (06/27/11 03:59 PM)

Top
#151951 - 06/27/11 12:09 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: BZH]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
I hadn't thought about one-use, disposable gear - that's a great point.

Top
#151955 - 06/27/11 01:28 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Glenn]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6399
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
The BPL thing is an ad for a sale on firestarters in their store. Adding to the conflagrations currently pictured on their home page is last week's "state of the market" report on wood-burning stoves (which, like many of their other SOM reports, appears to have omitted some of the more effective models).

Whether or not a campfire is an infringement of LNT principles depends on where it is! If you are at lower altitude (not near or above timberline), fire danger is low, there is lots of dead and down small wood around (not requiring sawing or chopping) and there's an existing fire ring in which to build the fire, no problem. Where all four of these conditions do not exist, there is a problem.

I can't see where lightweight (or lighter) backpacking conflicts with LNT. Responsible backpackers always expect to carry out their trash. Since most of us eat more food than we generate trash, being responsible has little or no effect on initial pack weight.


Edited by OregonMouse (06/27/11 01:33 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#151958 - 06/27/11 01:53 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: OregonMouse]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
OM, I agree fully about the four conditions; I guess my presumption for this thread was that at least one of the four would not be met. The other presumption was that there may be a developing a sub-UL (or "lunatic fringe UL", depending on where you stand) philosophy that, to save the maximum weight, you should take lighter layers and sleeping bags than conditions would indicate and rely on building a fire to help keep you warm - this shifts the decision from "When is a fire appropriate?" to "Always plan to use a fire because carrying the lightest load is the only important consideration."

It was that inferred "light-at-all-costs" philosophy that I felt might be in conflict with LNT - and I'm hoping to find out whether my inference is correct. I fully agree that it is easy to incorporate LNT into lightweight backpacking; in fact, in many ways, they seem to mesh quite well. One example: lightweight philosophy says to reduce food packaging to a minimum by repacking before you leave, which meshes with LNT's pack-it-out philosophy. (Lunatic fringe UL would say, "Burn it in the fire, and you don't have to carry it.")

Top
#151961 - 06/27/11 02:19 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Glenn]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2802
Loc: NorCal
I'm in the camp of it's reasonable to vary one's strategy, depending on the destination and nature of the trip. Do I think relying on cookfires is "cheating?" No, so long as it's a match for the region being traveled. Good technique will leave behind no premanent damage.

I'll never be a hypermiler (there are no 30+ mile days left in my legs) but occasionally tackle trips where every ounce makes a difference due to the physical challenges. For those, I parse the ounces and the weather forecast closely and trim, trim, trim. But more typical are simple backcountry getaways and I'll pack whatever suits my fancy (still taking light stuff but more and better food, warmer clothes, gadgets, etc.).

I understand the self-sufficiency appeal of wood stoves and while I don't own one, I wouldn't mind giving it a try. My scouting years were in the Cascade foothills and we plowed through vast amounts of wood for cooking, campfires, drying soggy clothing, building structures, etc. It was second-growth alder and cedar forest that had once been old-growth Doug fir, and there was literally an unlimited supply of wood because the forest was in transition back to Doug fir. I'll guess the Boy Scout guidelines have changed a lot since then, and I'll also guess that patch of forest is now a suburb of Redmond.

Today I primarily hike the Sierra Nevada where easy wood exists in lightly traveled areas and in areas crowded with undersized second-growth trees, but more popular areas are generally stripped of easy wood or are alpine and never had wood to begin with. In some areas fires are banned completely or limited to below a certain elevation.

With this crazy quilt of conditions and regulations it's not easy to rely on cooking fires, but it's still at least possible. A couple summers ago I took a trip where I forgot my stove canister (duh!) and had to cook with fire instead. Every site had an existing fire area and wood was easy to find, so I had a lot of fun rediscovering long lost skills. The smoke was also nice for driving away clouds of mosquitoes.

I guess I don't have an overall point, just that I've considered LNT to be an unobtainable goal intended to keep us thinking about how to minimize our impact and going further, consider ourselves stewards (leave our sites nicer than we found them). Without hovershoes and zepplin tents we're always going to leave some sign of our passing, and I don't consider that a failure.

Politically we're seeing renewed pressure in the House to "open" more Forest Service and BLM land to motorized travel, and that's what I'm fretting about these days. I just love being called "elitist" by somebody who owns a $40k custom 4x4 rig towed to the mountains behind a $50k turbodiesel truck, hellbent on conquering them there hills.

Cheers,


Edited by Rick_D (06/27/11 03:18 PM)
_________________________
--Rick

Top
#151965 - 06/27/11 03:03 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Rick_D]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6399
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I agree that "Leave No Trace" is a misnomer because it's impossible. Maybe LMT (M for minimal) or LLT (L for little) would be more appropriate. Just hiking through an area will leave some trace (footprints)!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#151973 - 06/27/11 04:09 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: BZH]
dkramalc Offline
member

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 1070
Loc: California
Originally Posted By BZH
I agree ultralight goes to far when it infringes upon LNT.


I agree; the use of disposables for UL backpacking where a fairly light non-disposable option exists has always bothered me, particularly by young healthy persons who can easily handle a couple of extra ounces. I don't do freezer bag cooking for that reason, or use a disposable (i.e. single-trip) groundsheet. Using handi-wipes rather than soap and water is another example; it's just extra landfill to me, whether disposed of on trail or at home. I do bring TP backpacking (minimal, after using a squirt bottle) but pack the used stuff out now.
_________________________
dk

Top
#151974 - 06/27/11 04:42 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: OregonMouse]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
In my opinion, at least here in the Ozarks, the decision to leave the stove, fuel, and some clothing behind to save weight is not necessarily going too far, and actually makes sense. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone that hasn't the skills and experience to understand the risks that may impose and how to deal with them safely, but I actually do this myself.

If I did not do that I'd have to carry, at the very least, my down jacket to stay warm when it gets dark around 5:00pm, or wear my sleeping bag. That's way before I'm ready to go to bed and I don't like the idea of dragging my sleeping bag around before I settle into my hammock for the night. Instead, I add a layer or two of clothes and huddle over a small fire and enjoy the evening for several hours. I love this particular part of the experience.

I have to point out that I am never cold as a result of doing this. That is never a trade off I am willing to make.

I will add that I don't think that many backpackers actually practice making campfires that are designed to LNT, and that is really an issue that might need to be addressed and it leads me to some interesting questions, like, How do you do that?

Which leads me to this one:

What if you had a piece of gear that did most of that for them?

Which reminds me of this:

Jason Klass has a video review of a wood fueled cook stove on his site. The stove is light and could certainly be used to maintain a low impact source of wood heat. That's certainly something that has interesting possibilities.

What if that stove were optimized for heat and LNT?

  • It could eliminate the need for a "Fire Ring".

  • It could eliminate the need for a big fire.

  • It could only use small sticks for fuel.

  • It could burn fuel almost completely to ash.

  • It could be duel purpose (cook/heat).

  • It could potentially reduce the risk of starting wildfires (spark arrestor?).

  • It could reduce scaring of the ground.

  • It would be carbon neutral. wink


Since it already meets several of those goals, starting with the stove Jason reviews, I think it would be interesting to consider how to modify it to better meet them all.


_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



Top
#151976 - 06/27/11 05:29 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Glenn]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3571
Loc: Texas
It all depends on where you are hiking and current condition, Glenn. A big fire of driftwood on a Texas beach is no problem.
A big fire in a national forest with a fire ban, is a problem. grin
I do my very best not to cook at all but when I do, my first choice is a "cook fire". Cook fires done right leave no trace and use sticks no bigger than hand fed twigs, which are completely consumed. If I pack a stove, it will be Esbit.
A fire is just one more learned skill in the Ultralight bag of tricks, as is the decision to have one or not. Not "cheating" in my opinion.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

Top
#151985 - 06/27/11 07:34 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: dkramalc]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
What about the use of disposable Bic lighters (cheap) vresus a refillable lighter like the Windmill (expensive)?

Top
#152016 - 06/28/11 10:29 AM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Glenn]
Frankendude Offline
member

Registered: 10/04/10
Posts: 69
Glenn: I've owned around 3-4 windmills. (I'm a slow learner!)
Just not a reliable piece of equipment. Regardless of the difference in price, I'll take the bic over the windmill to save my butt in most all circumstances.


Edited by Frankendude (06/28/11 10:30 AM)

Top
#152017 - 06/28/11 11:59 AM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Glenn]
dkramalc Offline
member

Registered: 09/19/03
Posts: 1070
Loc: California
Originally Posted By Glenn
What about the use of disposable Bic lighters (cheap) vresus a refillable lighter like the Windmill (expensive)?


You've got me there, Glenn. Hmm - I guess I can defend myself by saying that all the Bic lighters I've used are ones I've found on the street or in the wilds, rather than purchased - so I'm really just recycling? blush

However, I'd probably purchase one of those rather than a Windmill if I needed a lighter. Maybe it's just rationalizing, but I would tend to classify those as more like Tyvek, in that they aren't just single-use even though they eventually wear out; they last a pretty long time. And now that I hear Windmills aren't as reliable, that tilts the balance too.
_________________________
dk

Top
#152018 - 06/28/11 12:09 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Frankendude]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2802
Loc: NorCal
Oh, they work great at home (sea level) but up in them thar hills don't do squat. Pathetic waste of money (on my part).

But they look kewhl. eek

Cheers,

Originally Posted By Frankendude
Glenn: I've owned around 3-4 windmills. (I'm a slow learner!)
Just not a reliable piece of equipment. Regardless of the difference in price, I'll take the bic over the windmill to save my butt in most all circumstances.
_________________________
--Rick

Top
#152020 - 06/28/11 12:41 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Rick_D]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Has anyone tried the peanut lighter?

Peanut Lighter

They look like a good option for a sustainable lighter. Plus they are small, and even come in titanium. I haven't tried one yet, so have no experience.
_________________________
I've taken a vow of poverty. To annoy me, send money.

Top
#152021 - 06/28/11 12:55 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Glenn]
Samoset Offline
member

Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 429
Loc: Newnan ,GA
I personally agree with the commen opinon that in the right place a fire isnt cheeting. Its luck, luck would have it im allowed to build a fire in the fire ring that i luckly happend upon. If im lucky enough to land a couple fish. Ill cook them on that same fire if im lucky enough that its not raining cats and dogs. I personally have been carrying my bush buddy ultra this year. but only use it when stelth or LEAVE MINIMAL TRACE smile camping. most of the time i use established campsites with fire rings. alot of time il join people already having a fire thus negating my impact that much more.

as far as bics go prob the only desposible gear ill carry. granted ive come along way from the utillity tarp toating blue foam pad sleeping hippie. i was a few years ago. although my new found kit due to the most part. is thanks to generous freind that single handly changed my life for the better for ever.
another stroke of luck i guess. that im looking forward to passing on to others everyday.

i kinda of feal you cant really cheet at backpacking. you could die from exsposure, go back to the car or have to be rescued in my book thats about as close to cheeting as it gets. and would not wish either of the three on anyone.

i beleave that true lnt ul backpacking isnt so much what you personally doo its that you teach others how to do the same.

just my opinion SAMOSET


Edited by Samoset (06/28/11 01:23 PM)
_________________________
Some peopole live life day by day. Try step by step.

Top
#152025 - 06/28/11 01:29 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Samoset]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
As for carrying a lighter than needed sleeping bag, I wonder if they travel at night, then sleep during the day when temps are warmer? I trample the grass and ground more stomping around camp than the rest of my impact on an area where I sleep or cook.

Top
#152028 - 06/28/11 02:58 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Frankendude]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
The Windmill was just one example (mine has always worked fine); I know Brunton makes one, and I've seen some others - my point was, where do you draw the ethical line (given equal reliability), the cheap disposable or the costly refillable? And I didn't even raise the issue of the environmental cost of the fuel! smile

Top
#152029 - 06/28/11 03:09 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Samoset]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Again, I'm not trying to argue against fires under appropriate conditions. (In fact, the post wasn't really about fire; that just happened to be the example that triggered the thought.)

I'm just curious where you all think the line is that we won't cross - at what point do you sell out the LNT ethic (or any other ethic you care to choose) in order to lower pack weight?

Although I don't build fires myself (I find them too much like work, and I don't go out to increase the number of chores I do), I'll gladly sit around someone else's and enjoy the evening. Last time I did that, it was about 10 degrees, and I stayed a good ways back from the fire so a stray spark didn't put a hole in my down jacket or pants. (Toasty warm without the fire.) But I did enjoy the camaraderie.

For me, the line may be toilet paper: I don't think I'd pack out my poop, thank you. That doesn't really have anything to do with pack weight, but it is still a point at which I'll put LNT secondary to my own preferences.

You make an excellent point about the need to teach others the ethics you use in the outdoors. We can probably all do better. And "cheat" may have been the wrong word to use in the original post - something about "how do you determine your priorities" might have been better.

Top
#152033 - 06/28/11 03:56 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: hikerduane]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By hikerduane
I trample the grass and ground more stomping around camp than the rest of my impact on an area where I sleep or cook.


That is absolutely true, and it's something I've been paying more attention to and making an effort to minimize. I can come pretty darn close to LNT when I go solo, but it's pretty hard to do that when I hike with others here.

The first small cookfire I ever saw put to practical use was made by a friend who'd just returned from a hitch with the Marines. We were camping and he heated a can of beans up with a fire made from twigs. When he was done the ash footprint was about 3" in diameter.

You can keep toasty warm in pretty cold temps over a fire with about an 8-10 inch footprint and you can fuel it all evening with an armful of small sticks and still have plenty of fuel to make your coffee in the morning. What's left is easy to scatter and re-cover and essentially LNT when you're done.



_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



Top
#152035 - 06/28/11 04:00 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: billstephenson]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Y'all remember when you could tell someone cooked over a fire due to the two rocks 4"-6" apart? Lots of work gathering wood.

Top
#152039 - 06/28/11 04:41 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: Glenn]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By Glenn
at what point do you sell out the LNT ethic (or any other ethic you care to choose) in order to lower pack weight?


That would be safety first, then comfort, but I enjoy striving to practice it. Low impact fires are an example of that, as well as trying to restore a campsite before I leave it. Both do make an impact, but they can be very minimal with a little practice. I like to think I'd be pretty hard to track. Since I don't know any real trackers, I may be deceiving myself though wink

Where I do toss it out mostly, I admit, is when I am camping with a bunch of people who haven't a clue. I'll gently nudge them, but I don't often bark orders. Instead, I'll do some cleanup and restoration after they've all left.

To be honest, some of my recent experiences with inviting a group of people have left me a bit sour after realizing the impact the group made, and that has been a sort of driving force behind enjoying going solo more. I don't have any lingering guilt of being responsible for people I invited and could not nudge.

But I do enjoy getting them out there too, and trying to share what I love about it, so I suppose I will sell out again. I can't say it won't happen. The saving grace for me is that our forest here recover on their own very quickly.

_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



Top
#152041 - 06/28/11 04:51 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: hikerduane]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By hikerduane
Y'all remember when you could tell someone cooked over a fire due to the two rocks 4"-6" apart? Lots of work gathering wood.


I have a backpacking buddy here that refuses to make a small fire. Bigger is better as far as he's concerned and he'll drag fallen tree trunks into a fire if they're around. When he sees my fires he tells me I'm burning "Squaw Wood". I just tell him he's nuts laugh
_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



Top
#152043 - 06/28/11 05:17 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: billstephenson]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
Good point about groups - the impact is greater just because there are more folks, and the odds are that some don't know/care about impact.

Like you, I find that I'm going out with fewer people, mostly who also try to limit their impact. I'm not going to bark out the orders, either.

Top
#152047 - 06/28/11 07:43 PM Re: Does fire take ultralight too far? [Re: billstephenson]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Bill, I've been with folks who seemed to be very concerned about the environment, but then instead of packing out there aluminum beverage cans and other accumulated garbage, they throw it in the fire made from drift wood. Seems to me there is still stuff in the ashes from burning cans. I guess that is ok along with call of nature (high tiding) practices. Comes back to each individuals definition of LNT I guess.

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Bivvy bag with wired peak
by Petro1234
01:06 PM
How cheap can you go?
by EMT Dave
12/05/17 07:07 PM
compass, thermometer, baro/altimeter
by edfardos
11/19/17 09:54 PM
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Greetings - and a question
by valongi
11:35 AM
Just found out about UCO candles
by toddfw2003
11/30/17 08:41 AM
Hitting the eagle rock loop, Ark in 3 days
by toddfw2003
11/19/17 11:31 AM
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
Plant based insulation...
by billstephenson
11/18/17 02:58 PM
lightest grommets to use
by toddfw2003
10/22/17 06:13 PM
avalibility of thin ti rod
by the-gr8t-waldo
01/26/17 04:45 PM
Featured Photos
Breakneck Ridge, New York
May 2012 Eclipse, Lassen Park
New Years Eve 2011
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
1 registered (), 31 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
valongi, Atkinson J, Dcarpenter, Woodland, ultralight
12469 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
HOME
Backpacking.net
Family Hiking
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Outdoor Gear Daily Deals
Outlets, Sales, Bargains

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum.com