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#144590 - 01/08/11 01:59 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Becky]
chimpac Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 148
Loc: alberta,can.
January 7, 2011 - Aconcagua Expedition Updates - Camp 2 Established!

Camp 2 (17,700')
John called in this afternoon to report that the team had moved up to Camp 2. The team was walking by about 10AM local time and it took about 4 hours to move from camp 1 to camp 2. Everyone did well on the move and they are now settling into their new home at camp 2. The tentative plan is to carry up to high camp, camp cholera @ 19,400', tomorrow.



A more modest kitchen for the higher camps.
The higher the team gets the more pared down the operation becomes. The winds have been light enough (about 10-15 mph in camp this afternoon) that the team is likely still able to use a small cook tent at camp 2. Once they move to high camp it is likely that the guide will be making all of the food and water for the group in the vestibule of their sleeping tents.

Enjoying the scenery.


Now that the team is getting higher they can start to hone in on the best summit day. We will continue to monitor the weather and give them daily updates. Right now it is looking like Monday would be the first possible summit day based on the team's schedule.

I said in a post on this thread that on my daughters climb they were using a kitchen tent with a chimney now it is back to cooking under a kite tarp and the vestibule. How am I going to convert the world to a little chimney so they can do it all inside?
This is an example of the gear that is used by the climbers.
I think that is my daughter under the kitchen tarp I dont know which one is my son in law.

I ask you with tears in my eyes why carry that kite tarp or tent way up that mountain if they cant use it in the wind?





Edited by chimpac (01/08/11 01:17 PM)

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#144593 - 01/08/11 09:48 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: chimpac]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
Originally Posted By chimpac

How am I going to convert the world to a little chimney so they can do it all inside?


Well, you could start by ditching the attitude that everyone needs one... totally repels me from even considering one.
_________________________
"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities. In the expert's mind there are few." Shunryu Suzuki

http://hikeandbackpack.com

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#144598 - 01/08/11 11:57 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: chimpac]
midnightsun03 Offline
member

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 2936
Loc: Alaska
I got embroiled in this same debate back in 2004 and ended up getting my posting priviledges significantly limited for a while. One of the significant issues that came out of the discussion is that there is a MAJOR difference between a tarp, a floorless tent (often referred to as a tarp) and a floored tent. I maintained that I could safely use a tarp in winter in Alaska. Well, truth was (and I didn't respect the difference at the time) is that I was talking about using a floorless tent and not a tarp. There is a great deal of confusion over this issue because when I say "apple" some people think "computer" while others think "fruit." So, I could be going on and on about how wonderful my apple is, and most people will make assumptions about my statements based on what they perceive my definition of "apple" is.

This pictures you show are of a floorless tent. These are common on Denali, especially as kitchen shelters, as you depict in your photos. Done right they will definitely withstand the wind well. But under a heavy snow load they will collapse in a heartbeat.

You are mistaken to say that snow is snow. I dare you to compare a cubic foot of snow that falls at 30 below versus a cubic foot of snow that falls at 30 above. You'll note that the weight of the snow at 30 above will be significantly greater than that at 30 below. A tent that will do well in an arctic environment such as Denali (or Aconcagua) will not necessarily do well in someplace like, for example, the Sierras or the Cascades. Quite simply you can't have a single product that is ideal in every environment. Like a golfer chooses his clubs based on a specific desired outcome, an avid outdoorsperson will have multiple tools in their arsenal and pick and choose depending on the conditions they are likely to encounter. You don't carry a heavy parka on a summer backpacking trip, but that doesn't mean you don't own a heavy parka for your winter trips.

But back to my original point: for anyone who thinks a tarp is a tarp is a tarp and one can be substituted for another, you are flat out wrong. Be precise in your language before assuming that everyone who can't see your point is stupid.

MNS
_________________________
YMMV. Viewer discretion is advised.

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#144600 - 01/08/11 12:45 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: midnightsun03]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2802
Loc: NorCal
Good points all. I started "tarp" camping in Scouts and continued post-Scouts because 1. Cheap, cheap, cheap and 2. versatile in the PNW Cascades, where there are trees aplenty for stringing them up myriad ways with ridgelines sufficiently strong to shrug off nearly any weather. Note: I never intentionally headed into the snow with just tarp makin's, but snow sometimes found us. YMMV

Tarp back then: a hunk of Visqueen off a very large roll.
Tarp today: either a flat or catenary-cut lightweight fabric sheet with plenty of tieout anchors.

Pyramid or teepee shelters aren't tarps in my book, but I can imagine how they might acquire the moniker anyway. Floorless shelters works for me, although it's a rather broader category than just teepees.

As to our new friend Becky's question, I'd ask for further input. Do you want a snug, well-protected space for sleeping or do you want roomier longer-term living quarters that, among other functions, allow you to cook inside or in a vestibule and accommodate all your gear?

There are many lightweight tents for sleeping, rather fewer for hanging out during a multiday blow. Then, there are construction decisions. Single-wall, double-wall, tunnel, wedge, dome, self-supporting...?

The "best" extreme shelter I've used was an Early Winters Omnipotent with vestibule; the best I've owned is an EW Winterlite Goretex. Both are/were tunnel-style, requiring anchors fore and aft. Both are fast to set up and handle very high winds and reasonable snow loads, although I think in general, tunnel-style tents can require more frequent digging out than some other designs. The O-tent was double-wall, with the inner tent suspended at each hoop pole.

My qualms about double-wall tents with non-attached flys revolve around the more complex, time-consuming setup and the need for lots of anchors to keep everything taut, as well as the tendency for the fly to gather snow and press against the inner tent. Some designs seem to fend these tendencies off, but I don't have the hands-on experience for a recommendation.

If such a thing were available, I'd buy an updated version of my old Goretex tent done in eVent with carbon fiber poles. I'd be happy to take such a shelter almost anywhere, or at least anywhere I'm ambitious enough to go these days. Based on what I see on the market today, I'd probably buy a WPB wedge and learn to anchor it properly. If I were going to hang out in the snow over an extended period, I'd consider a Kifaru rig.

Cheers,
_________________________
--Rick

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#144604 - 01/08/11 04:16 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: chimpac]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 998
Loc: Australia
Chimpac
Thank you for swallowing your pride and showing yourself wrong.
As your pictures prove, expedition do indeed use "expedition" tents (semi geodesic design exactly the type I recommended...) and as a "mess" tent at altitude can use a pyramid tent ( just for the record, the Black Diamond Megalite is a pyramid tent, not a tarp and not a shaped tarp either... ), however there is no chimney to be seen and are not considered safe enough to be used to sleep under by organised expeditions in those areas (individuals may choose to use one).
A third point shows that you greatly lack comprehension skills.
If you actually read what I wrote when I showed those "kite" pics, I explained that they had nothing to do with this thread (just like your input...) but it was just something I was doing in between posting,
The type of tent that the OP was after had already been spelled out many answers before and as you just confirmed it is indeed a semi geodesic/multi pole design.
Rick D ,
caving in/snow compressing against the fabric is the reason why neither pyramids nor tunnel tents are used (generally...) when heavy snow is expected (that is both wet or a lot of snow...)
Again some people forget that the often quoted Antarctica is actually the driest continent on earth, that is it does not snow very much at all down there.
If you look at the Mountain Hardware "expedition" tents you will notice the multi pole design in the smaller ones and the full geodesic in the larger ones , all designed to deflect high winds and shed snow.
(just noticed that the inner (tent) of the Satelite is now white with orange stripes...used to be blue and white)

http://www.mountainhardwear.com/expedition-tents/tents-expedition,default,sc.html
Franco

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#144609 - 01/08/11 05:04 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Franco]
GDeadphans Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 382
Loc: Maine/New Jersey
Originally Posted By Franco
Chimpac

Again some people forget that the often quoted Antarctica is actually the driest continent on earth, that is it does not snow very much at all down there.
Franco


True, the place is considered a desert by definition.
_________________________
"To me, hammocking is relaxing, laying, swaying. A steady slow morphine drip without the risk of renal failure." - Dale Gribbel

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#144610 - 01/08/11 08:33 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Becky]
chimpac Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 148
Loc: alberta,can.
Quote franco
Chimpac
Thank you for swallowing your pride and showing yourself wrong.
As your pictures prove, expedition do indeed use "expedition" tents (semi geodesic design exactly the type I recommended...) and as a "mess" tent at altitude can use a pyramid tent ( just for the record, the Black Diamond Megalite is a pyramid tent, not a tarp and not a shaped tarp either... ), however there is no chimney to be seen and are not considered safe enough to be used to sleep under by organised expeditions in those areas (individuals may choose to use one).quote
Quote chimpac
My daughter and her husband are climbing Aconcagua in Argentina this week. I have not converted my son in law to use a chimney yet but the group they are climbing with are using a separate cook tent with a chimney. Quote

I say, A different cook tent was used when they were at lower levels, I saw a chimney coming out of their tent.

Quote climbers
A more modest kitchen for the higher camps.
The higher the team gets the more pared down the operation becomes. The winds have been light enough (about 10-15 mph in camp this afternoon) that the team is likely still able to use a small cook tent at camp 2. Once they move to high camp it is likely that the guide will be making all of the food and water for the group in the vestibule of their sleeping tents. Quote

I say, You said sleep under a chimney, I assume that means with a hot stove. I have not, nor do I know of anyone who would sleep with a backpack size stove burning wood or gas. I suspect you know very little about my stove/chimney that you are judging. As far as chimney safety goes my stove jack is metal and I can touch it with my bare hand when a hot fire is burning in the stove. Fire or sparks do not come from my chimney and I do not use a damper or a spark arrestor.

I only mentioned a cook tent, I never said anything about the type of other tents used by climbers.



Edited by chimpac (01/09/11 05:32 AM)

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