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#144306 - 01/03/11 06:51 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: chimpac]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia
Chimpac
No , I am not trying to insult you, you are doing just fine.

Please read this very slowly and think about it.
What you do is CAMPING in a forest, not BACKPACKING and not HIGH ALTITUDE CLIMBING.
There is a subtle difference between those activities and if you do go from one to the other without knowing, you can ,and probably will ,die.
Experienced climbers with EXPEDITION grade gear die in places like that .
A very simple reason for example is that winds of 100MPH are not that uncommon. That will lift a fully loaded person up in the air .
At that point you have no choice but following the wind, could be out and a few hundred feet below.
With winds like that, temps at -40f and below and possible snow drops of several feet per night you will never see anyone that has some active brain cells , using a tarp, ANY tarp.
And we already have covered before the point about keeping warm.
Climbers need clothing to keep them warm. They don't carry stoves with them going up a ridge .
And even at base camp, once your stove goes out you still need exactly the same clothing/bag as if you had no stove at all.
So your stove and your chimney are totally redundant above base camp and in fact anywhere above the tree line and of course where you are not allowed to bun wood .
(a lot more common than you think...)
Franco

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#144308 - 01/03/11 07:12 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Becky]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
The tent I would recommend is one I do not own - Bibler or Intergral Designs MK series of tents.

Jim Shaw has a a great alpine/climber kit Bibler ElDorado, Warmlite DAM and Western Mountaineering bag.

I am a hiker so my winter kit is different.
_________________________
"In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."
Yogi Berra

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#144310 - 01/03/11 07:25 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: ringtail]
GDeadphans Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 382
Loc: Maine/New Jersey
From what I have seen an important feature in a 4 season tent that is to be used in the mountains where winds can really whip is tie downs on the side. I am sure they have a technical name for it but I just don't know it.



That is just what I found with a quick google search to better explain what I was talking about.
_________________________
"To me, hammocking is relaxing, laying, swaying. A steady slow morphine drip without the risk of renal failure." - Dale Gribbel

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#144311 - 01/03/11 07:36 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Loomis]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Loomis, I have never seen one, but a member on another site I belong to has bought their bags and likes them for the value. They are imported from China by a small company in Seattle.

I am always leery of cheap gear. I know not everyone can afford the expensive stuff. I can't, so I try to buy the best I can afford and look for used bargains. But, that doesn't mean that cheap gear is inherenly bad. It may be, or it may just not last very long. For most of us, we aren't going to be on Denali in 100 mph winds or so far away from the trailhead that we have to have the best of everything.

The problem I have with recommending anything to anyone is we often don't know what experience the person has or what they intend to do. I've never done any high altitude mountaineering, just a little bit at less than 12,000 ft. in mild weather and a bit of winter camping (snow camping in Yosemite). But, if you read enough, you learn what other people use. If everyone is using similar gear, there is a reason for it.

I have no idea what Becky intends to do or her skill level so that's why I suggested she talk to a guide service-they will know what works and what doesn't.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#144313 - 01/03/11 08:02 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: GDeadphans]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia
Yes right...
A Grand Trunk Unita. Polyester Fly and fiberglass poles...
Just the tent you want for backyard camping.
FYI, a rough guide is in ascending order is 2 season tent, 3 season tent , 4 season tent, expedition tent.
That Grand Trunk is really between two and 3 season.
It isn't just about a vague similarity in design. It has to do with the type and number of pole used as well as the fabric used for the fly, as well as all the trimmings.
Nobody sane would want to use fiberglass poles in any open area let alone at high altitude.
Franco

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#144314 - 01/03/11 08:09 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Franco]
GDeadphans Offline
member

Registered: 12/26/08
Posts: 382
Loc: Maine/New Jersey
HAHA Franco. My bad, I was just using that picture as a visual for the side support I was trying to explain. Definitely not a suggestion.

P.S.

Winter hammocking was mentioned in this thread, and wanted to post this Link.


Edited by GDeadphans (01/03/11 08:13 PM)
_________________________
"To me, hammocking is relaxing, laying, swaying. A steady slow morphine drip without the risk of renal failure." - Dale Gribbel

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#144317 - 01/03/11 09:08 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Becky]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
My Akto, properly guyed out, handles wind very well but I was rather disappointed when faced with heavy snow loads. It seems that the roofline is not quite steep enough and I found myself kicking snow off (from the inside) all night to avoid excessive sagging.

Chimpac, the original question concerned what is appropriate for "places like Mt. McKinley". I highly doubt that you will ever find any kind tarp/chimney setup used on the upper slopes of McKinley or any similar environment. There is a reason for that......
_________________________
If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#144318 - 01/03/11 09:27 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Trailrunner]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia
Hilleberg call the Akto an "all season/four season" tent. The Soulo is described as an "expedition" tent.
Totally different design from the Akto. (nice tent, BTW...)
Franco

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#144319 - 01/03/11 10:01 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Becky]
KWeb Offline
member

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 183
Loc: Tacoma, WA
Where'd Becky go anyway?

My Bibler Ahwahnee once laughed all night long at 70mph winds.

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#144328 - 01/03/11 10:45 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: KWeb]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
That's what happens to newbies sometimes. May not have expected so much info so quickly too.

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#144330 - 01/03/11 10:52 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: hikerduane]
Becky Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/31/10
Posts: 3
Loc: Minnesota
Yes, wow, thanks for all of the replies, it's been very helpful for me and has cleared up some of my misconceptions. No, I'm not going to Denali, I just really need a tent that can handle harsh environments with high winds. Thanks again all, especially Franco, TomD for taking the time to help. I feel better knowing where to direct my attentions.

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#144337 - 01/03/11 11:05 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: chimpac]
stonemark Offline
member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 82
Loc: China
Waho, so many suggestions for the tent-selection, I don't know others , but I was confused by the different brands at all~ Maybe the best sold tent is the best? confused
_________________________
adventure in China~my site

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#144339 - 01/03/11 11:14 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: stonemark]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Stonemark
Do not be confused by the English term "best". Probably the most sold is not the "finest" but may from some perspectives be "the best". Generally the best are the fewer hand made variety. There may well be a cultural difference in the concept as well.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#144344 - 01/04/11 12:33 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: chimpac]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By chimpac
Originally Posted By phat


I have no problem with you advocating your favorite rig, even if not my choice of rig - to the point where you are advocating someone do something dangerously risky. A tarp shelter in such a place is probably not a good idea.

A tarp that is plain dangerous, what tarp are you talking about? Dangerously risky, like no floor, or the pegs might pull out.What is it.
Those that have been such places, make some sense here, blizzard -30C. I do not have to go far to find hostile weather.


I find the same hostile weather as you my freind, and my favorite winter shelter (my golite shangri-la, modified to accept a stove boot and my homemade stove) is the same basic idea as to what you are referring to.

Facing -30 in some trees with some shelter from the wind, and alberta type -30 snowfall, I love it, I can rig the shelter in some kind of not incredibly exposed place, put up my chimney and stove, a sledful of firewood, and I'm very comfortable.

I'd never go near denali with it, a floorless single pole tarp shelter. I would expect to either get flattened by a meter of snow or by 100 kph plus winds with nothing but rock and snow as an attempted place to anchor it

The dangerous part of your suggested tarp shelter is it simply will not take the exposed winds and lack of good hard anchor points, and possible snowload that one migh face in that sort of environment. It'll be flattened or picked up and blown away leaving it's occupants in a dangerous situation. *that* is where a mountaineering tent is not a waste of money. yes, everywhere else, and using them for general backpacking is a complete waste, but NOT THERE.

I'd take my black diamond tent there. freestanding, good crosspoles for a snow load. and side braces, I can put big old rocks in the corner to hold it, it won't get flattened in a 100 kmh wind on an exposed ridge. I don't need the chimney since I'm not going to try to warm the tent and I can cook with my gas stove in it with the top vent open just fine.


Edited by phat (01/04/11 12:34 AM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#144345 - 01/04/11 12:43 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Becky]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By Becky
Yes, wow, thanks for all of the replies, it's been very helpful for me and has cleared up some of my misconceptions. No, I'm not going to Denali, I just really need a tent that can handle harsh environments with high winds. Thanks again all, especially Franco, TomD for taking the time to help. I feel better knowing where to direct my attentions.


If you need a tent able to handle high winds (but you are not actually going up denali) there are lots of good options, and even some of those can be considered fairly lightweight.

I have had very good luck in such situaitons with a tarptent Scarp2 with the cross poles (have slept in one I ordered for a friend) A black diamond one shot (I own one, no longer made) or a black diamond firstlight. All of those are decently lightweight but rigged properly will hold up well to high wind and snow. there are also lots of other choices.

If your "needing high winds and winter" is also not your typical choice of backpacking location, and you only go there sometimes, then consider very carefully the thought of getting a three season shelter, which may not be able to take a pounding of sitting on an exposed mountain ridge in a snow dump, but *will* be a lot more comfortable to sleep in (better ventialtion) and a lot lighter (easier to carry) for your three season type backpacking needs. Rent, borrow, or buy used your winter "bombshelter" for the occasional time you might end up needing it. Four season mountaineering style tents are a waste of money and weight when you are not doing that sort of activity (which most of us don't, most of the time - personally I'd rather not carry such a shelter the 90% of the time I won't be needing it - more comfortable to take something more appropriate)


Edited by phat (01/04/11 12:44 AM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#144348 - 01/04/11 01:06 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Franco]
Family Guy Offline
member

Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By Franco
Hilleberg call the Akto an "all season/four season" tent. The Soulo is described as an "expedition" tent.
Totally different design from the Akto. (nice tent, BTW...)
Franco


But strangely, Hilleberg quotes the Akto being used successfully on extended Polar Expeditions. Amazing tent.

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#144349 - 01/04/11 01:09 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Family Guy]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By Family Guy
Originally Posted By Franco
Hilleberg call the Akto an "all season/four season" tent. The Soulo is described as an "expedition" tent.
Totally different design from the Akto. (nice tent, BTW...)
Franco


But strangely, Hilleberg quotes the Akto being used successfully on extended Polar Expeditions. Amazing tent.


If you like the akto though, you really really gotta try the tarptent scarp 2 smile
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


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#144352 - 01/04/11 01:29 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: phat]
Family Guy Offline
member

Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By phat
Originally Posted By Family Guy
Originally Posted By Franco
Hilleberg call the Akto an "all season/four season" tent. The Soulo is described as an "expedition" tent.
Totally different design from the Akto. (nice tent, BTW...)
Franco


But strangely, Hilleberg quotes the Akto being used successfully on extended Polar Expeditions. Amazing tent.


If you like the akto though, you really really gotta try the tarptent scarp 2 smile


Nah - its too big. smile

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#144353 - 01/04/11 01:43 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: phat]
chimpac Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 148
Loc: alberta,can.
[/quote]

I find the same hostile weather as you my freind, and my favorite winter shelter (my golite shangri-la, modified to accept a stove boot and my homemade stove) is the same basic idea as to what you are referring to.

Facing -30 in some trees with some shelter from the wind, and alberta type -30 snowfall, I love it, I can rig the shelter in some kind of not incredibly exposed place, put up my chimney and stove, a sledful of firewood, and I'm very comfortable.

I'd never go near denali with it, a floorless single pole tarp shelter. I would expect to either get flattened by a meter of snow or by 100 kph plus winds with nothing but rock and snow as an attempted place to anchor it

The dangerous part of your suggested tarp shelter is it simply will not take the exposed winds and lack of good hard anchor points, and possible snowload that one migh face in that sort of environment. It'll be flattened or picked up and blown away leaving it's occupants in a dangerous situation. *that* is where a mountaineering tent is not a waste of money. yes, everywhere else, and using them for general backpacking [/quote]

I looked up the shangri la tents and it looks like from what I can see they would go like a kite in the wind. They do not go completely to the ground. So if you are comparing my tarp pitch to them you do not know much about my outfit.
I have camped in exposed areas in high winds in winter cold and maybe tore a gromett but not encountered the dire predictions you have for my outfit in the wind.
Show me a tent that can stand a meter of snow.
Is a 2 season tent warmer than a 3 season and a 4 season warmer than a 3 season tent?
Which season has the highest wind? Will a 4 season take more wind than a 2 season tent?
Snow load maybe is the reason to buy a 4 season, how many more lbs. or tons will a 4 season take than a 3 season.


Edited by chimpac (01/04/11 09:45 AM)

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#144354 - 01/04/11 03:07 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: chimpac]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
Becky, As you can see, your question has caused a bit of controversy, which is normal for here on certain topics.

For winter camping, one thing not mentioned is a shovel. For me, I would not leave home without one. I have a Voile Mini and I even take it on day hikes away from camp. Black Diamond makes some nice ones as well. With a shovel, you can make wind walls (look at the pics of Denali base camp-most of the tents are dug in behind walls). You can dig a trench shelter, make a quinzee or snow cave or even make an igloo. I used mine as you can see to dig out a platform for my tent, dig out my cooking area and although it's hard to see, I dig a footwell right in front of the door so I can sit up and cook as if I'm sitting in a chair, makes it easy to put on your boots as well.

If you are talking about harsh weather and high winds, you are most likely to be the most comfortable in a heavy multi-pole expedition tent big enough for at least two people, although a design like the tunnel tents made by Hilleberg is highly recommended. If I was buying a Hilleberg, I would look at the Nallo GT 2 for two people. Other designs like a teepee will also hold up in winds as along as they are staked down from what I have read from people who own one.

Solo tents are small, which is why I don't have one. I bicycle toured alone with a Sierra Design Flashlight, a lightweight two person tent and on occasion had another person in it with me, but most of the time it was just me. I had plenty of room for all my gear in the tent when it rained, which was often. For my winter camping, again, I used the tent you see in the photo- a two person EMS tent (no longer made). The problem with it, is that it is heavy. I was pulling my gear on a sled, so it didn't make that big a difference for me, but carrying it and all my other gear would have been impossible alone.

I would consider a tarp or tiny tent for 3 season mild weather, but I like being comfortable, being able to spread my gear out and have plenty of room inside in winter, so a bigger tent is more my style. Although, on my last trip, a snow camp overnighter, I never even set up my tent, just slept out under the stars because the weather was so nice.

One thing not mentioned is color. I like the color of my tent-maroon, off white and kind of a butterscotch color. I've seen pictures of some really nice tents, but couldn't picture myself inside one because I think the color is hideous-like those lime green ones BD makes. I've got a cycling windbreaker that color and its only purpose is to make me really visible. On the other hand, some tents are easier to spot than others, which could be handy if someone is looking for you from a helicopter.


Edited by TomD (01/04/11 03:10 AM)
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

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#144355 - 01/04/11 03:13 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Family Guy]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia
You know very well that the Akto cannot hold the same amount of snow nor the same gusts of wind, without totally deforming ,as as the Soulo can , so I don't know why you bother.
I am not here to win arguments or indulge in semantics, I was trying to help.
since the difference isn't obvious to you , read the description :
http://www.hilleberg.com/home/products/solo.php
and yes I am aware that the Soulo is too short for you, and no it isn't my fault.
Franco

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#144360 - 01/04/11 11:10 AM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Franco]
Family Guy Offline
member

Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 37
Than the Soulo? Well, obviously.

But I was just reading off the 2010 Hilleberg catalogue. Maybe it was a misprint. It seems that you may want to give Petra a call to discuss.

Pretty strong tent regardless. Found this review:

"My first use of this tent was at Camp Sherman on Mt. Rainier, where high winds proceeded to destroy all the other tents at the campsite. I watched as the Mt Hardware, Sierra Designs and North Face 4 season tents were all destroyed, but the two Hilleberg Akto tents in our group survived without damage. Hillberg's fly fabric for this tent is 4 times stronger than others, and this is their lighter fabric. I now have 3 Hillebergs, and recommend them highly for 4 season use."



Edited by Family Guy (01/04/11 11:31 AM)

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#144378 - 01/04/11 03:05 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Family Guy]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia
David
I don't need to call anyone to work out how a tent will perform based on design.
There are a few thousand tents out there that have some design input from me ( not that I made any money out of it....) and from two different brands,
If you cannot tell the difference in theoretical structural strength between a single hoop pole and a shelter with three intersecting poles than maybe you don't really get tents either...
(no offence)
Besides, I have a Bibler that uses the same basic design. (Bibler Pinon/Juniper)
Franco

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#144379 - 01/04/11 03:12 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Franco]
Family Guy Offline
member

Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 37
Did I say that? Me thinks you have an assumption issue. The Soulo is undoubtedly stronger.

I am just concerned that Hilleberg may be providing false marketing in their literature.

Not likely.

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#144383 - 01/04/11 03:46 PM Re: 4 season tents [Re: Family Guy]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia
Nothing to do with false marketing. You just need to be able to read inbetween the lines...


Tarps...
These are some mids I have been playing with in the last few days.
The idea is to make them from a 10'x10' or 10'x12' tarp. You need to just cut some corners out, cut one panel out and stitch it back together .
Or you can stitch together two pieces of 10'x 5" fabric (12'x5') and you avoid having to work out angles and all of that.



Franco

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