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#137714 - 08/16/10 02:27 PM Re: Llama ***** [Re: billstephenson]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Thanks Bill,
That was some interesting reading. I'm a good rider, but don't really know much about horses, never having kept them. Remember Earthlings woes came from a horse crushing his hand when he dropped a horseshoe and bent down to get it. Burros are another form of live stock that I can get for next to nothing here. Do you burro camp?
Jim
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These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#137715 - 08/16/10 02:28 PM Re: Llama [Re: ringtail]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
food, I think a pickup with sides and a tailgate would suffice if you had a ramp for him to walk up.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#137716 - 08/16/10 02:51 PM Re: Llama [Re: OregonMouse]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
Originally Posted By OregonMouse
Don't llamas spit at you when they are unhappy? lol



Yeah, but so does Jim!

BF cool
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#137717 - 08/16/10 02:55 PM Re: Llama [Re: Jimshaw]
bigfoot2 Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 1432
Loc: Eugene , Oregon
Originally Posted By Jimshaw
Everybody,
thanks for your input. smile

... I'm wondering if sasquatch would hurt a Llama since they chase down deer and bear? Warm Springs Reservation is near here. One indian woman called the reservation police when she saw a bigfoot chasing a black bear. Later the police found the shredded body of a black bear.

Maybe sasquatch also don't recognise Llama scent and combined with human scent might stay away?
Jim


Yes, people, he's SERIOUS....

BF cool
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#137721 - 08/16/10 07:32 PM Re: Llama [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
So far I've only hiked and camped in forest behind our house with the burros. I have a two-horse trailer, but no tow vehicle right now. But the burros are ready for a longer trip out, and so am I.

My burros, "Lewis" and "Clark", are "Sicilian donkeys" . They're tiny, often call "Miniature Donkeys". They're only about 36" high at the shoulder and they weigh around 400 lbs, so you could say that they are really "Ultralight" Pack Animals".

I load them with about 50 lbs (including their 10 lb pack saddle, so about 40 lbs of gear). Some people say they can carry more, I've read from 25% to 45% of their body weight, but I limit it at around 10-15% right now.

I was actually looking into the latest ultralight backpacking gear and techniques when it occurred to me that I might look into how the old timers managed to go so far with so much more weight than I was carrying. I found that Burros played a big part in that.

When I found the "Mini" burro I knew I found the perfect pack animal to combine modern lightweight backpacking gear with. This is what I've been working on with my burros.

I've made my own pack saddles and harness rigging, and I use a pair of JanSport daypacks for "Panniers" (saddle bags). This set up can use some refining, but it's working better than I'd expected for my first crack at it.

I load them with the same gear I backpack with and take them mostly off trail bushwhacking around the forest.

I can tell you that they love it. They come running when they see a halter in my hand and stick their noses right into it. They stand patiently when I put their saddle and pack on and follow me as far as I will take them.

They get a little anxious when I tie them up to a line or tree, but they're still young and need more time out with me to get used to that.

I am actually a little surprised that I am pretty much alone in using the Sicilian donkey for backpacking. I don't find much on it when I look for it. I guess I just have to get Lewis and Clark out on the trails for it to catch on wink


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#137723 - 08/16/10 07:53 PM Re: Llama [Re: Jimshaw]
Trailrunner Offline
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Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
I ran into these fellows (ladies?) on the JMT a few years back.

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If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#137726 - 08/16/10 08:08 PM Re: Llama [Re: billstephenson]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon

Trailrunner, thanks, thats way cool...
Jim

Thanks Bill,
photos of your packs and donkeys?
So all the stuff I read on Donkeys talked about the larger breeds but basically where extolling the classic Mexican burro for inteligence and dog like behavior, and they are the smallest of the standard size I guess. interesting that you use a miniature breed and they still weigh 400 pounds. at 1/8th body weight a 50 pound pack is the equivalent of a 12.5 pound pack on a 100 pound human.

So whats involved with raiseing sicilian donkeys? Would one be happy if he had 2 people and a dog to talk to. Pretty much whatever animals we adopt will share our lives. We never knew how a dog would become one of the family. She talks to us...

I'll admit however that at this point I am leaning towards the Llama. I called the ranger station and Llamas and pack goats are both welcome in Three Sisters Wilderness.

We saw wild (feral) donkeys in Sheldon Game preserve in NW Nevada and around he Vigin Valley opal mines. We have a gov't green forerunner and when we would see a herd and stop, they would approach us. Moms with little ones stayed back and the largest males came up to see if we had any food or traquiliser darts.

Finally: What about miniature horses? I can get them too.
Jim smile


Edited by Jimshaw (08/16/10 08:09 PM)
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#137728 - 08/16/10 08:20 PM Re: Llama [Re: Trailrunner]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 998
Loc: Australia
Came across two lots of Llamas in WA . One on the PCT, the other in the Olympic NP
Both lots were very well behaved and their owners were having a good time with them.



Franco

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#137732 - 08/16/10 10:32 PM Re: Llama [Re: Jimshaw]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
These are a few years old, but here's a pic of Lewis and I standing at the gate to the backyard.



Here's one of the packsaddles I made.



My donks are probably closer to 350 than 400 lbs, and can be expected to carry 70 lbs with no problems. I don't work them everyday, so less is better for now.

They're herd animals and do best with at least on other donkey around. That's really why I got two. Clark was still baby when I got him and the two hang close together. Right now they're in the pasture with our farm dog, and some chickens and cats. They all get along fine.

Donks are low maintenance. I give them each one cup of sweet grain and a flake of hay in the evening. More than that and they'd get fat.

Mini horses don't really have the same gentle disposition as burros. They can be pretty ornery and I don't think they'd be good as a pack animal.

Llamas are supposed to be great pack animals. The woman I got my donks from had a Llama in a pasture with over 30 little donks. It was a big male, and he was a badass. He really only liked her and the donks, and he gave me the evil eye when I got close to the fence he was standing behind. I could tell he was thinking how much fun it would be to knock me on my rear, but I never gave him the chance.

She also had a stud burro that was every bit as mean as her llama all fenced off on his own few acres. He was only 32 inches tall at the shoulders and was snarling at me the whole time I was there. He didn't even like her. He had one thing on his mind, how to get to the pasture where all those female donks were at, and he would have stomped, bit, and kicked anything that got in his way.

My burros are both clipped, and at a pretty young age too. That makes a difference with burros, bulls, and horses, I don't know about llamas.

Here's a pic of both Lewis (left) and Clark. You can see the cross on Clark's back and front shoulders:






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#137734 - 08/17/10 12:13 AM Re: Llama [Re: Jimshaw]
Trailrunner Offline
member

Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Here is an educational video containing little known facts about the llama.


_________________________
If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#137738 - 08/17/10 08:50 AM Re: Llama [Re: billstephenson]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
Bill, what about vet visits, ferrier? Same as horses or way less?

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#137742 - 08/17/10 10:24 AM Re: Llama [Re: Jimshaw]
Fiddleback Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 478
Loc: Northern Rockies
I think My Lady developed her interest in llamas when we were in Alaska in the mid-80's. No matter when or where, I'm paying for it now. wink

She met one woman who transported her two, rather large, llamas in a 'van'...remembered as a VW Bus. The animals would step in and, as soon as the vehicle started moving, would lay down (kush). She also knew of a state senator who kept her two llamas in the house...they apparently enjoyed relaxing by the fireplace but then, who doesn't in Alaska? grin

A possible reason for Zion NP allowing horses but not llamas (hhavel's post) may be because of the horses themselves. It is common for horses to bolt or otherwise react with fear/shock/upset when coming upon a llama. That can cause a lot of problems on a trail, particularly if there's a string of horses. The Zion NP prohibition may be a safety rule. The horse-llama interaction is a recognized problem in this area and My Lady's horse-people friends have asked her to visit with her llamas to condition their horses. Her own horses (yeah...she has them too smirk ) pretty much ignore the llamas and vice versa.

The bad ass llama (billstephenson's post) may be indication of another trait of llamas...they are great herd guardians. They have great success in keeping coyotes, loose/feral dogs and sometimes, wolves at bay.

FB
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"...inalienable rights...include the right to a clean and healthful environment..." Montana Constitution

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#137744 - 08/17/10 11:35 AM Re: Llama [Re: Fiddleback]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By Fiddleback
The bad ass llama (billstephenson's post) may be indication of another trait of llamas...they are great herd guardians. They have great success in keeping coyotes, loose/feral dogs and sometimes, wolves at bay.


Indeed, the woman that owned the llama said it watched over her herd of donkeys and told a story about the llama chasing off three big dogs that had make their way into her pasture. The dogs belonged to a neighbor, who she had asked several times to keep on their property. The neighbor, who had a "My dogs can go where they want to" attitude, and her dogs, found out that was not at all true.

The llama was also very protective of it's owner. Even her husband wouldn't go near the llama when she was in the pasture. He told me, "The donkeys and the llama belong to her. I don't mess with them at all". She told me the llama was a male, and while he liked most all women, he hadn't ever met a man he thought much of.

It was clear by watching him how different he felt about the two of us. The llama obviously adored her. He was nothing but "Googoo eyes" whenever he looked at her, but it was all "evil eyes" for me. I was pretty impressed with how much expression could be read in his face alone.

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#137745 - 08/17/10 11:51 AM Re: Llama [Re: hikerduane]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By hikerduane
Bill, what about vet visits, ferrier? Same as horses or way less?


I have the vet come once a year to check the donks. He does a "Coggins" test, and that's about it.

Since the donks don't get shoed, I don't call a ferrier in. I normally just use a rasp to keep their hooves shaped. When the donks are active they don't need much hoof work. In the Spring, when the ground is softer and there's lot's of grass growing they do tend to get long pretty fast and I've had to learn to clip them before filing them, if I wait too long to get to them.

I generally give them a nice long brushing afterwards. They have limited patience with me working on their hooves, but will stand there and let me brush them for as long as I can stand it. I don't even use a halter when I'm just brushing them, the two of them come over and wrestle to be first in line for that.
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#137747 - 08/17/10 01:05 PM Re: Llama [Re: billstephenson]
hikerduane Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/03
Posts: 2123
Loc: Meadow Valley, CA
That's funny. Like big dogs. Thanks Bill. I have a dogless dog pen that I built that could hold livestock if needed. Made it to take the heavy snow we can get which will tear a fence up. I put railroad ties every 10' and 'T' posts between those, holding up livestock wire fencing with a pole, top rail. The snow doesn't touch it now, just time and rot on the top rail.

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#137761 - 08/17/10 06:24 PM Re: Llama [Re: hikerduane]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 1731
Loc: Napa, CA
Here are the ones we met between Burro and Mule Passes....maybe there should be a Llama Pass, too?

[img]http://picasaweb.google.com/balzaccom/TwinLakesToBensonLakeAndMatterhornCanyon#5503458276531465986[/img]

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#137765 - 08/17/10 07:35 PM Re: Llama [Re: billstephenson]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Bill,

Do they breed mules with mammoth jackstock burros and draft mares?

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Yogi Berra

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#137775 - 08/17/10 11:31 PM Re: Llama [Re: ringtail]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
food
I'll bet if they could make 2,000 pound mules someone would have. I mean a "war mule" would have been far more effective than a "war horse" as they are tougher and smarter. (maybe a war horse is better being stupid?) wink

I don't remember which but maybe the Donkey has 64 chromosomes and the horse has 62 chromaosomes so they they rarely produce fertile, or complete "species" status. Maybe the size of the draft horse precludes efficient operation with a mix of chromosomes???

Llamas - I'm starting to get a picture of Llama atitude. I think I like them. I hear they can be VERY protective and I'm thinking what 600 pounds of angry agile beast runs up to you and kicks you with 2 sharp nails on 2 toed feet - so whats different from being chased by a dinosaur except for 3 toes? cool OK one with a small mouth maybe?
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#137779 - 08/18/10 11:15 AM Re: Llama [Re: ringtail]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3889
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By food
Bill,

Do they breed mules with mammoth jackstock burros and draft mares?



Sure do. We have some pretty big Mules here in Missouri, they are the "State Animal".

Here's a snippet from the "The American Donkey and Mule Society":

Quote:
Mules come in every size and shape imaginable. Miniature mules (even to under 36") can be seen all the way up to 17 hand Percheron draft (by Mammoth Jacks) Mules. The Poitou donkey was used exclusively for breeding huge draft mules from a breed of draft horse called the Mullasier - the Mule producer


I rode a mule on trails in the Sequoias when I was young and I liked him better than the horses we took on that trip. I also got to ride a Percheron on some trails in Arkansas. He was a blast to ride, and gentle as a lamb too. He did make me feel kind of like a mosquito sitting a football though wink
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#137798 - 08/18/10 09:18 PM Re: Llama [Re: Jimshaw]
Kent W Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 607
Loc: IL.
In the words of Bill Murry. I caddied for the lama once, and at the end of the round he tried to stiff me.But I said Hey Lama! Pay up your not gonna stiff me. He replied I can not offer monetary compensation my son but I can offer you Total Concousness. So Hey I got That going for me Now! And Thats pretty good I Think!

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#138726 - 09/13/10 04:56 PM Re: Llama [Re: Jimshaw]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
I did a backpack trip last month in the ID Sawtooths. On August 10th, our 7-person group camped by some llamas. The 2 males were very quiet all night. Hopefully this picture works. You can see my zpack hexamid tent in the background.

And as a side note, that tent performed very well again in hard thunderstorms.




-Barry

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#139674 - 10/01/10 12:47 AM Re: Llama [Re: billstephenson]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods

Llamas and donkeys are used here in Deep East Texas to protect goats and sheep from feral dogs & coyotes.

They are most effective.

A lot of folks also use the standard guard dog breeds in conjunction with the Llamas and donkeys. As long as they all grow up together, they get along great.

Llamas and horses don't mix though, based on my experience.
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#139745 - 10/02/10 12:07 PM Re: Llama [Re: Tango61]
Fiddleback Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 478
Loc: Northern Rockies
Originally Posted By Tango61

Llamas and donkeys are used here in Deep East Texas to protect goats and sheep from feral dogs & coyotes.

They are most effective.

A lot of folks also use the standard guard dog breeds in conjunction with the Llamas and donkeys. As long as they all grow up together, they get along great.

Llamas and horses don't mix though, based on my experience.


It's not your experience that counts, it's the horses'. grin

Horses get along just fine with llamas once they get use to them. Until then, there can be some panic by the horses which, if on a narrow trail with a string, can be a 'problem.' On occasion our neighbors will bring their horses over or, more commonly, ask our llamas to come visit so that the neighbors' horses can be acclimated to llamas.

As for guard duty... Having just spent a total of eight hours on the road to and from Yellowstone I came to realize...I seldom see guard dogs with a flock of sheep but I often llamas out in the field with them. In my part of MT it seems llamas are the much more common guard.

In any case, My Lady's three horses and six llamas share a pasture and the barn with no issues. But I've never seen them attending the same party... wink

FB
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"...inalienable rights...include the right to a clean and healthful environment..." Montana Constitution

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#144771 - 01/12/11 08:49 PM Re: Llama [Re: Howie]
stonemark Offline
member

Registered: 12/07/10
Posts: 82
Loc: China
I think a Llama would be helpful to your journey if you have one~ so just go with it, you backpacking would be great!
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#144788 - 01/13/11 08:35 AM Re: Llama [Re: Fiddleback]
sjohnny Offline
member

Registered: 10/29/10
Posts: 185
Loc: Central Texas
We had horses, llamas and goats all in the same fields. No one ever bothered anyone. We don't have the horses any more, just llamas, goats and sheep. I always wanted to train the llamas to carry a pack but I haven't even had time in the past few years to get them used to walk on a lead. The two we have now are getting pretty old to do any training. We had two young ones die last year that would have been better suited for learning new tricks.

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