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#135618 - 06/28/10 06:50 PM canoe vs kayak observations
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I am a very experienced canoer and the greenest of kayakers. I put my slalom kayak in a lake Saturday for half an hour and it was my first trip in a rigid kayak with a double bladed paddle. So sometimes the simplest observations are the most valuable like:
Its a lot harder to get into and out of a kayak AND its harder to shove off and jump into a kayak.
A kayak is wetter because its lower and half of the time theres a wet paddle blade above you.
Kayaks are insensitive to wind.
It may be easier to paddle slowly in a canoe than in a kayak and
canoeing can be totally quiet but kayaking always has a splashing paddle.
A kayak seems to be more stable owing to your low placement, but Those things roll easily.
A kayak does not hurt my knees (like a canoe)as I generally kneel in a canoe and now I have a knee that doesn't like being kneeld on.

my neighbor borrowed one of my my canoes for two days and on the second morning he said "whats a J stroke?" Then on the second day he stepped into the boat without putting his hands on the gunwales and landed in the drink. I hd assumed that someone wanting to borrow a canoe would know how to use it. Why would I do that?
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#135627 - 06/28/10 09:55 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods

There you go assuming again, Jim. You know what happens.

Why would you do that? Uhhhmmmm...old age, too much to drink, deaf in one ear, just wanted to see him end up in the drink... laugh
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If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you can't. Either way, you're right.

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#135725 - 06/30/10 08:11 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
Trailrunner Offline
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Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
There is no rule against paddling a canoe with kayak paddles.

Best of both worlds.
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If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#135734 - 07/01/10 01:17 AM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Trailrunner]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
trailrunner
actually a kayak paddle doesn't work well with a canoe, it is really designed for someone sitting lower and closer to the water and makes too much twisting motion which a paddle right along the boat going straight back does not. I haven't tried a canoe paddle in my kayak yet but I think it would work better than a kayak paddle in a canoe. Since I am a canoer and like to skull, I think I can easily skull a kayak. So my next trip will be with a canoe paddle in a kayak.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#135742 - 07/01/10 02:10 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
Trailrunner Offline
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Registered: 01/05/02
Posts: 1835
Loc: Los Angeles
Works great for me Jim. Whatever floats your boat.
_________________________
If you only travel on sunny days you will never reach your destination.*

* May not apply at certain latitudes in Canada and elsewhere.

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#135747 - 07/01/10 05:04 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Trailrunner]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
TR
Do you stay in lakes? Large water? Our "wild and scenic river" that flows through town is so narrow as it runs between roots and rocks that I really think a kayak paddle would get hung up and the shorter canoe paddle would be better there. I just haven't used my kayak paddle on my canoe in a lake yet. If you use a kayak paddle in a canoe are you solo or double and does your partner also use a kayak paddle at the same time?
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#135754 - 07/01/10 06:58 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Its a lot harder to get into and out of a kayak AND its harder to shove off and jump into a kayak.


Not with a little technique/training. If you use your paddle as a brace (sit on the shaft, braced agaist the rear combing), the boat will be rock solid.


Quote:
A kayak is wetter because its lower and half of the time theres a wet paddle blade above you.


Your drip guards should be all the way down to the blade root. Greenland paddles are wetter, for sure, but I wear gloves which shed the water.

Quote:
canoeing can be totally quiet but kayaking always has a splashing paddle.



Again, technique. My greenland paddles are dead silent and my Werner Comano's as well. I've been with noisy canoers too.

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paul, texas KD5IVP

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#135814 - 07/03/10 10:11 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I got to spend some more time in my kayak today on an alpine lake at 44 14 58.75 n 121 50 11.45 w at 5124'.

and youre right moving the drip things all the way to the end makes the paddle dryer. I got to spend some time with a canoe paddle and a double bladed kayak paddle and basically the canoe paddle is just wrong for a kayak. I met a fella who claimed to be a kayaker at the lake and he had some advise for me about getting into the boat, so I tried the "put nose of kayak in water, get in kayak, scooch into water with big splash" method and it was exciting but it was over quickly and the guy helping me said "you're a natural.". I remained dry on this trip and used the molded in beverage holder for my small 2 cup thermos of hot coffee. There was snow along the edge of the lake. I also learned that its impossible to turn around and get anything out of the compartment the aft deck. The kayak does blow in the wind a bit if you just sit and ride.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#135816 - 07/04/10 09:06 AM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Jim, join www.paddling.net

Lot of good info there and a forum like this one.
Getting in and out of a kayak from shore is best done putting the kayak parallel to the bank, holding the paddle loom (shaft) against the rear cockpit coaming, the other blade on the bank. The paddle will be behind you, one hand on the shaft/coaming, the other toward the bank on the shaft. You then sit on the paddle shaft and slide into the boat. The boat will be rock solid until you are in. Another way is to straddle the boat and simply squat into the cockpit, if it's shallow enough and you have a rock/gravel bottom.
What you did is called a "seal entry"....not very useful unless you are in a whitewater boat, entering from steep banks into moving water.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#135819 - 07/04/10 02:03 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Dryer]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
DRyer.
Well I have to practice. When I came back to the shore last night I was thinking"Great, now I can get into the water, why didn't I ask how to get out?" thanks
I just powered the bow as far up the bank as I could and used my canoe paddle to steady the kayak as I stepped over the bow.
Today I think I'll get in and out of the kayak ten times each in different spots along the shore of another small lake. McKenzie Pass is 15 miles above my home and the closest lake up there is 11.8 miles from home as the crow flies. Its hard to justify NOT going kayaking or canoeing as I please.

I added a second seat to my 12 foot old town canoe. It was killing my knees to kneel while my wife sat in the only seat.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#135944 - 07/07/10 04:58 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
gmagnes Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/04/02
Posts: 562
Loc: Upstate New York
Haven't posted here in a while, so I thought I'd add my two cents to the canoe vs. kayak discussion. I'm mostly a canoe paddler, although I also have a 16.5 ft. sea kayak, and do some of that as well.

Thought I'd add a bit of my own experiences and ideas to some of the topics that have already been raised here:

1--single vs. double bladed paddle in canoes--If I have my druthers I generally prefer a single bladed, canoe paddle in a canoe. I just find it's more fun. If I'm paddling solo in a regular solo or tandem canoe, I'll paddle it kneeling just behind the center thwart, leaning it to one side, with a single bladed paddle. Great way to go! However, there's also a class of boats that lots of folks in the Adirondacks (and I assume elsewhere) use called pack boats. They're canoes that usually run between 10-14 feet long and are generally made to sit right on the bottom or in a very low seat and paddle with a double bladed kayak paddle. They're usually light weight and great for trips with lots of portaging, which we have a lot of here in the Adk's. My Bell Bucktail for example, is a 12 foot Kevlar boat that weighs in at about 20-21 pounds. Others that are popular around here are the Hornbeck and Placid Boatworks boats.

2--A few pluses and minuses of the double bladed, sit low in the kayak or canoe style--It takes a bit of practice to learn to get in and out of a kayak, but the method others have noted works well for me and most folks I know. One big disadvantage though is that when you come to beaver dams (which we have lots of around here), getting out from a lower, sitting position, as in a kayak or pack boat, can be pretty tricky if the dam is high and water deep right around it.

3--Learning to paddle single or double bladed--I think generally folks can learn to move a boat in a more or less straight line and even turn fairly quickly and easily in a kayak using a double bladed paddle. I think that's a big part of the reason that kayaks have really taken over the paddling sector in recent years, at least around here. I'm no expert, but I can now handle a canoe pretty well, and can do a number of the basic strokes ok. However, there was a much longer learning curve for me than there's been in the kayak. Once you've got the hang of it, though, managing the canoe and paddling on tricky rivers and where there are other challenges on the river is lots and lots of fun.

4--Kayak vs. Canoe--generally I'll prefer a canoe almost anywhere that I think I can manage it (mainly meaning the water isn't too high and rough for an open canoe vs. a kayak with a skirt.). I usually will go with the kayak on big lakes where there's liable to be high winds and big waves and places where no serious amount of portaging is involved. Canoes pretty much every where else. Kayaks can certainly handle twisty rivers too though.

Jim--regarding your knees and kneeling in your canoe--I had a kneeling thwart installed in my tandem canoe. It's in place of the rear thwart, in between the rear seat and center thwart/carrying yoke. You can rest your butt on it, kneel on foam or whatever, and it serves to take a lot of weight off of your knees (although sitting is still the easiest on knees I guess).

Ok, I gotta go now. We've got a Tuesday night paddling group, and I'm off to paddle.

Gerry Magnes
Upstate NY

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#138662 - 09/12/10 09:36 AM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: gmagnes]
Eggs Offline
member

Registered: 09/12/10
Posts: 21
Loc: NJ
Double blade while in a canoe with head wind on an open river like the Delaware sure makes it easier. But I do like single blades better.

Never paddles a kayak. I have 4 canoes all are my favorite for one reason or another
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Home of the eggs

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#138663 - 09/12/10 11:38 AM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: gmagnes]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Thanks everybody. smile
I got a low concert chair to put in the bottom of my canoe but I haven't tried the double bladed paddle while sitting in the chair.

Wow kayaks are really hard to get out of although I can easily get in. With a bad knee, getting out would be a problem, vs throwing your leg over the side of a canoe and stepping out. The kayak certainly seems more stable, but the stability of kayak or canoe depends on the person in it, both will overturn if careless.

I get wetter in the kayak and prefer rain pants over my sweat pants to stay dryer. Dryer is that what your name refers to?

I tried a canoe paddle in the kayak, that didn't work too well, but an old canoe paddle is good for pushing off the bottom to land or enter the water.

Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#155776 - 10/13/11 05:15 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Good discussion. Lots of these answers are related to personal preferences. A double bladed kayak works well in a solo canoe if you are trying to keep pace with two person canoes or in lots of current with aerated water. It is helpful to kneel aft of the center thwart with pads or a saddle which helps the purchase of the paddle blade in the water.

I built a pygmy sea kayak but never really like it that much. Canoes can carry lots more and are less dangerous in rivers. Kayaks are immensely popular, maybe because they are light and cheap.

Overnight sea kayak trips are very adventerous especially in salt water with large tidal ranges. It is like a chess match with nature in the San Juan Is of Wa state for instance. You have to wait for slack water or following current. The rip at Deception Pass averages 7 knots.



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#155808 - 10/13/11 11:05 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: ppine]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
One thing I like about sea kayaks is their ability to haul much more than even a heavy back packing load. Mine actually had better stability, and handled nicely, when loaded up with about 100 pounds of gear. Since I use mostly backpacking gear when kayaking, I had lots of capacity.

My area for paddling, the Channel Islands and the Santa Barbara Channel, has nowhere near the tidal range and currents found in the PNW. But even here, it really pays to check the tide charts and plan your trip accordingly.

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#155820 - 10/14/11 07:51 AM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: oldranger]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Another difference it wind and warmth. Canoes catch the wind due to being much higher in the water. In cooler weather my sea yaks with skirt are quite toasty. True, you can carry a ton of stuff in a canoe but I've never had a problem packing all I need in/on a kayak.
Boat types of boats are just tools in the toolbox. It's all in what you are wanting to do.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#155829 - 10/14/11 12:09 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Dryer]
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Dryer,

Good points. Canoes are usually paddled by two people which helps overcome the amount of boat exposed to the wind. Newer designs tend to be lower.

Have you ever seen a nylon cover on a canoe? They are popular for multi-day trips especially in places like Ontario and for the Arctic rivers.

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#155847 - 10/14/11 03:08 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: ppine]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
With the popularity of open kayaks, you have a virtual continuum ranging from the classic closed cockpit sea kayak to a standard canoe, with all sorts of things in between. Interesting developments of two extremely capable native watercraft.

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#156690 - 11/03/11 12:19 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
The best way to enter and exit a human powered boat is to land parallel to shore and step out. Landing perpendicular to shore like in the movies creates two problems especially if the bank is unven. The boat is unsupported which can damage it. The boat will tend to rock back and forth.

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#156692 - 11/03/11 12:22 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: oldranger]
ppine Offline
member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Minden, Nevada
Can anyone adequately explain why canoes have fallen out of favor to kayaks? I could understand this change better if the kayaks being sold so often were beautiful, long, and fast. In reality they are short, cheap, plastic, and slow. Paddling is going backwards in my opinion.

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#156709 - 11/03/11 04:36 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: ppine]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Well, there are kayaks and there are kayaks. Admittedly, there are some monstrosities, especially in the open deck, "sit upon" category. These paddle like bricks (very beamy), but they are comfortable for beginners on short trips. River kayaks have been getting shorter and are specialized for tricks in white water.

Sea kayaks designed for relatively long paddles remain true to the original Aleut/Inuit designs. In fact one can make a good case for saying modern sea kayaks have not yet approached to level of sophistication reached by aboriginal boats. Some early boats have flexible joints, with friction reducing bearing surfaces made of ivory whose purpose we do not understand. The boats were apparently designed to flex, and may have been able to therefore increase their speed.

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#156710 - 11/03/11 04:38 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: ppine]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Even better is to catch a wave just right and surf it onto the beach, stepping out onto dry land as it recedes from its crest. I believe i actually managed to do this exactly one time.

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#156721 - 11/03/11 06:44 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: ppine]
Dryer Offline
Moderator

Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 3569
Loc: Texas
Quote:
Have you ever seen a nylon cover on a canoe? They are popular for multi-day trips especially in places like Ontario and for the Arctic rivers.


Oh yeah....some of the solo river canoes have covers for whitewater.
_________________________
paul, texas KD5IVP

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#163554 - 03/08/12 10:23 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Dryer]
OldJohnDewey Offline
newbie

Registered: 02/16/12
Posts: 11
Loc: BC Canada
The post by Gerry Magnes (gmagnes) on Canoe vs kayak is right on. I grew up in a canoe and have used kayaks on and off. 9 times out of 10 I prefer a good canoe (I like the prospector keel-less style) over a kayak for all the reasons Gerry listed.

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#163668 - 03/10/12 03:23 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I was kayaking in almost white water on the upper Deschutes River. The water is deep and swift along side the river and I couldn't get out of the kayak. There was one little notch in the bank that I put the bow in and held it there and my buddy grabbed my hand and jerked me out of the kayak and right onto the dirt. Still not so sure about this...
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#163856 - 03/13/12 04:05 PM Re: canoe vs kayak observations [Re: Jimshaw]
tybee Offline
member

Registered: 01/03/12
Posts: 19
Loc: coastal georgia
some folks are limber enough to straddle the yak, put the paddle behind their back horizontal to the water, sit down just behind the cockpit, use the paddle to maintain balance by placing it on the deck behind them and putting one end on the ground by tilting it to one side, then lift up a leg, put it in the yak and then do the other leg, then slide into the seat.
reverse the process to get out.

however, i'm not that limber and my entrances and exits are somewhat less than graceful.

as to getting wet, get a spray skirt for winter use. keeps you dry. in the summer the water is cooling and refreshing as it drips off the paddle. and then you get to bail it out on a long paddle. it's always something...

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