Feathered Friends 300x250
Superior Down Sleeping Bags & Clothing

Ultralight Adventure Equipment (ULA)    

   
 
 
Lite Gear Talk

Backcountry Gear Clearance and Sale

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
BackcountryGear.com
backcountry gear

---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance


 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

Stay Healthy--Eat Well

MARY JANES FARM ORGANIC MEALS

Mary Janes Farm Organic Backcountry Meals

NATURAL HIGH GOURMET MEALS

Natural High

 

Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#135301 - 06/19/10 12:33 AM Sil-poly???
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Since many don't like the sagging of silnylon when it gets wet (inside &/or outside) how about a ripstop reinforced light dacron polyester fabric that's silicone coated?

Most sails are made from dacron fabric for its stretch resistance, wet OR dry, and its better UV resistance.

Just a thought...
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

Top
#135302 - 06/19/10 04:17 AM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: 300winmag]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 654
Loc: Upstate NY
Spinnaker fabric is used by many to make tarps. They are especially popular in the hammock community. Cost is often the prohibiting factor for many people as it is a much more expensive fabric.
_________________________
http://ducttapeadk.blogspot.com

Top
#135306 - 06/19/10 04:03 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: DTape]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6371
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
That's what I thought--300winmag is really referring to spinnaker fabric.

I like it--my Gossamer Gear/Tarptent Squall Classic is made of it. With a good taut pitch, the reputed noise (which is evident when setting up and taking down the tent) is not a problem. I did find it sagging when it rained, though, but that appears to be mostly the guylines rather than the tent fabric.

Considering that most silnylon tents (such as Tarptents) have guyline tighteners that can easily be reached out the front door without getting wet, I haven't found silnylon to be a problem, either. The main thing is to tighten everything up really snug just before you go to bed.
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#135339 - 06/20/10 10:02 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: OregonMouse]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Then why the heck doesn't TarpTent and others offer a Spinnaker Cloth version of their tents? I'd pay another $50. for it.
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

Top
#135341 - 06/20/10 10:31 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: 300winmag]
taM Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville, TN
Originally Posted By 300winmag
Then why the heck doesn't TarpTent and others offer a Spinnaker Cloth version of their tents? I'd pay another $50. for it.


Easily.

That's by far my biggest gripe with my TarpTent, I've quickly gotten fed up with having to re-tension the tent several times per night in sustained rain.

If Henry offered his tents in spinnaker or cuben, I'd be looking to purchase one of those, rather than jumping ship and getting into tarping.

For how well thought-out every other part and feature of TarpTent's offerings are, it baffles me why they use an inferior material when better materials are available.

Oh well...
_________________________
Light, Cheap, Durable...
pick two

Top
#135342 - 06/20/10 10:47 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: taM]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6371
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
A spinnaker version (such as the Squall Classic) costs at least $100 more. Cuben versions would be at least $200 more. I have seen posts by Henry Shires that he wants to keep his tents affordable.

The Squall Classic is a Henry Shires design but is manufactured by Gossamer Gear. It's more of a 1 1/2 person tent than a 2 person tent (just the right size for me and my dog, or a child, but I definitely wouldn't want to share with another adult) and, last time I looked, costs $325, not exactly cheap. It also tends to sag when wet, although I believe it's the guylines, not the fabric, that sag. Its main advantage for me is that it is lighter and is the size I need. With the Squall Classic, as with my silnylon tents, I just pull the guylines up tight when going to bed and have had no problems.


Edited by OregonMouse (06/20/10 10:49 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#135343 - 06/20/10 11:04 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: OregonMouse]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods


Here are a couple of links for making your own guy-line tensioners.

Tarp Tensioner 1

Tarp tensioner 2
_________________________
If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you can't. Either way, you're right.

Top
#135347 - 06/21/10 02:32 AM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: Tango61]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia
taM
I have had the Contrail up for over a week. It has rained on and off all the time except for one day.
The first pic is the shelter as it was set up after an afternoon in the sun. Nice and taut in the sun , sadly sagging the next morning. I did not touch the shelter the night before.
After I took the picture (the Contrail is cold and soaked now) I pulled the line tighteners in and had it up taught. The next morning the shelter was still wet (it had rained most of the night).
This morning, two days later (second picture), it was still exactly like that. I re-tensioned the shelter ONCE. (after the first shot...)
The temperature was between 39 and 57 f. 46 f when I took the second shot.
I only use the original cords, no bungee cord or "self tensioning" cord.
So I am not saying that your shelters don't sag, what I am I am saying is that mine don't unless I want them to.


Franco
BTW , again , I have had all night rain on both the Contrail and the Rainbow many times, no sagging after the "before going to bed re-tensioning" or occasionally when warm the evening before , once during the night (on my pee brake)
And if you look really carefully you can see that my set up is not perfect either. That is why I have a puddle on one side at the rear (first shot) not both sides or no puddle at all. The reason is that the front and the tail are not completely square therefore creating an uneven tension ....

Top
#135362 - 06/21/10 04:34 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: Franco]
taM Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville, TN
I think it's silly that "I only had to completely re-tension my entire tent once" is supposed to be a good thing.

How many people setup a tarptent and leave it for days? I certainly don't. The bottom line is that it stretches slowly, and before the whole of the stretching is done, the tent is already touching my sleep system, requiring an increase in tension. My last trip, this occurred twice during the night (and was sagging again in the morning). When I re-tensioned the guylines, the stakes had not moved, the guyline adjusters had not moved. I'm sure that if I left it alone all night, and then re-tensioned in the morning, it probably would not have stretched further after that, but it would also have spent 3/4 of the night sitting against my bag, getting my insulation wet. If it stretched fully in 5 minutes, and didn't creep after that, I'd be ok with it, but that's not the case.

This is MY experience. Dismiss it if you'd like, make excuses for why it happened, etc. It works for others, but in my location, and the conditions that occur there, it's not acceptable, certainly not when there are lighter options without these issues.

Great tent aside from the material selection, which is sadly, a definite deal-breaker.
_________________________
Light, Cheap, Durable...
pick two

Top
#135366 - 06/21/10 06:50 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: taM]
hshires Offline
member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 169
Loc: Nevada City, CA
taM,

There is something not right about your experience. We have lots of models set up around here in rainy conditions throughout the year and we just don't see that phenomenon nor do we get reports from customers. Yes, the fabric stretches as night falls, or when it starts to rain but tightening the fabric after the stretch keeps it taut until takedown. There are certainly lots of variables at work, namely stake movement, line stretch (which should be about zero with the lines we supply), line slippage in the tensioners, collapsing trekking poles, and poles/struts that sink into the ground. How long have you had this and has this been the case every time you have used it? Can you email me photos of your setup and/or call--I'm not sure who you are--to discuss?

Thanks.

-H

Top
#135367 - 06/21/10 07:23 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: hshires]
taM Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville, TN
Henry,

I only had the really bad stretch on one night. Ordinarily it worked fairly well, but one night where it cooled down a good deal, steadily through the night, while raining the entire time, it continued to stretch throughout the night.

I verified that the stakes had not moved (fully sunk into firm ground), and I don't believe the guylines budged, as there was zero wind that night, and they've never slipped before. Generally the opposite is true, they hold the cordage so tight, they're sometimes difficult to move. My trekking pole is solid (1-piece) so no slippage there, and I don't believe the pole would have been able to sink into the ground at the location I camped, it was very firm ground.

Like I said, I've used the thing quite a few times since I got it this spring (purchased second-hand), and have really liked it every other time, (no other instances of sustained rains). I was initially hesitant about silnylon stretch, but TarpTents are so highly regarded, I dismissed my worries. This particular night seems like sort of the "perfect storm" of sorts, what with the rain and cooling, and I was miserable.

I appreciate your offer to help, and as an engineer, I realize that PAI (people are idiots) is always in play, but I genuinely don't believe this incidence was due to user error.
If, however, it was, and I did something wrong, then I'm probably going to screw up in the same manner in the future, to similar results. I'd rather give the tent to a new home, since there are plenty of people who would love to have it.

Like I said before, the attention to small details/features in TarpTent's offerings really impresses me (in all of the TT's I've seen, not just my contrail), but I just don't like silnylon. Perhaps I'm being unreasonable, and will regret this decision down the road, but that's where I'm at right now.
_________________________
Light, Cheap, Durable...
pick two

Top
#135386 - 06/22/10 12:17 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: hshires]
BarryP Offline
member

Registered: 03/04/04
Posts: 1574
Loc: Eastern Idaho
“…but tightening the fabric after the stretch keeps it taut until takedown.”

Ditto with all the ones I’ve owned:
Virga
Rainshadow
Double Rainbow
Cloudburst

I like your business model of keeping it affordable to the masses. I also loved it when you had so many tents in stock. However, I see today, you only have Cloudbursts in stock.

-Barry

Top
#135387 - 06/22/10 12:44 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: taM]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2742
Loc: California
I would speculate that it is more than just the material that causes stretch. I have the Moment and I think the shorter length of material from the center arch pole to the ends minimizes sag due to the stretch. A few years ago I bought a Cloudburst and the length of it from the arch pole to the end was very, very long (I felt too long). I returned this tent and got the Moment this year. I would think the Rainbow design would have the least sag just due to its pole design. Hey, I am no mechanical engineer, so I may be entriely wrong about this! I for one, am willing to re-tighten a few more times for the reduced total price. $100 more is a significant factor for my budget. But I do agree that it would be nice if both fabric options were available. By the way, all my tents including coated nylon tents sag when wet. I guess I just figure tightening is part of backpacking!

Another factor is wind. Repeated wind movement of the tent fabric can loosen or strecth your ties or stakes. I also would be careful on the tie-strength. If the ties are static (no stretch) the wind can add lots of load and break very small ties. I also find very small diameter ties simply difficult to work with - I prefer larger diameter ties even though they weigh slightly more.


Top
#135388 - 06/22/10 01:39 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: taM]
hshires Offline
member

Registered: 07/23/02
Posts: 169
Loc: Nevada City, CA
How "used" is your Contrail--when did the original purchaser get it? The Contrail has been through several iterations and both cut and fabric formulations have changed over the years. Without seeing your setup and getting a little more detail about that particular Contrail it's hard to comment further except to say that your experience has not been my experience nor the experience of others (or at least others who have contacted us). Sorry it didn't work out for you.

re: Nylon stretch. From every report I've read about nylon, the material stretches a certain/fixed percentage under load and under some water absorption. Once that occurs, It does not continue to stretch in an indefinite way as suggested. If someone can point me to research that disagrees, I'd love to read it.

-H

Top
#135389 - 06/22/10 02:07 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: hshires]
taM Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville, TN
Henry,

It's an 07 or 08 tent, I believe.

I don't disagree with your description of silnylon's behavior. I believe that if I were to have re-tensioned the tent when I woke up in the morning, it probably would not have stretched further. The problem was that the sag occurred slowly, rather than in the first hour of being erect, which doesn't seem unreasonable given the conditions, but perhaps I'm wrong on that.

Do I think the material is worthless? No. Do I think it's a bad tent? Absolutely not. I'm just the type that doesn't keep any piece of gear I'm not completely enamored with, and I'm constantly trying new gear, and selling what I don't 100% love. Heck, the only piece of gear I'm not currently looking at upgrading is my pack, which fits me like a glove, and is fairly light (GG virga).

If I had more money to tie up in gear right now, I'd definitely keep the Contrail, but I just don't have room for it in the arsenal right now.

I appreciate your offers of assistance, Henry. You cottage guys really hit it out of the park with customer service and support.
_________________________
Light, Cheap, Durable...
pick two

Top
#135405 - 06/22/10 06:38 PM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: wandering_daisy]
Franco Offline
member

Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 997
Loc: Australia
"I would think the Rainbow design would have the least sag just due to its pole design"
Never actually measured that but it isn't my impression having used both the the Contrail and the Rainbow.
What I think is happening is that with the Rainbow the sag is less obvious because it is divided into two halves, in fact with the cross strut , four quarters.
BTW, last night I was watching a docu on the race to the South Pole called "On thin ice" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/south-pole-race/), well there was plenty of sagging there (tunnel tents)
Franco

Top
#135445 - 06/24/10 03:09 AM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: 300winmag]
300winmag Offline
member

Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 1342
Loc: Nevada, USA
Well.. I guess my forgetfulness about spinnaker cloths can be laid down to "Old Timer's Disease".

But I never thought the topic would gerenate this muchresponse.

Anyway, with my TT Moment I really don't worry too much about it stretcing when wet because:

1. its hoop-and-triangle tensioned design
2. The fact that I brushed a very light coat of silicone on the top 1/2 of the canopy, which should mitigate water absorption.

Eric
_________________________
"There are no comfortable backpacks. Some are just less uncomfortable than others."

Top
#135452 - 06/24/10 11:29 AM Re: Sil-poly??? [Re: taM]
DJ2 Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 1347
Loc: Seattle, WA
"The problem was that the sag occurred slowly, rather than in the first hour of being erect",

This makes sense to me. If you went to sleep before sunset, for example, it might be dry and sunny. Later in the night humidity and possibly rain are added to the equation. The tent stretches and getting out to tighten things up would be unpleasant.

I typically go to bed early and have experienced this with all my nylon tents from time to time, even if I tighten things up before going to bed. I look for tents and have made some tents that address this problem by having a lot of room between the tent and the fly. Some sagging can then occur without the fly and tent touching each other and creating a point of wetness inside the tent.

I also have an REI tent that has, if I recall correclty, a polyester material for the fly. It doesn't sag much, if any, when wet. When I've made shelters from the blue woven cheap tarps I've always been impressed by how little they stretch dry or wet. When I replicate the design with nylon it shapes up quite differently due to the stretch.

Top

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Bivvy Sack combo Arrangement
by Jim M
10/18/17 01:58 AM
what is the lightest framed backpack around 40L
by toddfw2003
10/16/17 07:23 PM
a worthy challenger to the msr pocket rocket2
by the-gr8t-waldo
10/16/17 01:28 PM
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Napa Fires
by balzaccom
10/11/17 07:43 PM
Backpacking the Ouachita Trail thanksgiving
by toddfw2003
10/05/17 11:54 PM
Rockfalll on El Capitan in Yosemite
by balzaccom
09/28/17 09:47 AM
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
alcohol stove comparisons
by Bike_packer
10/03/17 08:56 PM
Can footprint plasticizer harm tent ground-sheet?
by Weston1000
09/10/17 02:24 AM
Featured Photos
Breakneck Ridge, New York
May 2012 Eclipse, Lassen Park
New Years Eve 2011
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
0 registered (), 33 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
LivelyLiz, Weve, Tones21, Pasquale, Rahultravel
12423 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
HOME
Backpacking.net
Family Hiking
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Outdoor Gear Daily Deals
Outlets, Sales, Bargains

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum.com