Backcountry Forum
Backpacking & Hiking Gear

Backcountry Forum
Our long-time Sponsor - the leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear
 
 
 

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance

Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#135102 - 06/13/10 11:21 PM REI bags - how close to rating do they perform
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Virginia
All

General beginners question:

IN YOUR EXPERIENCE do REI sleeping bag ratings (+20, 0, +40 degrees F) run as advertised?

Know that some companies (Mountain Hardware) are reputed to do better than rating.

Understand and acknowledge the limits of the specified bag rating system - I've read Tom D's (among others) articulate comparisons to the more accurate European system.

For those who will want to know, I tend to sleep cold, and plan accordingly.

Conditions of use are in the Blue Ridge in the winter.

Steadman

Top
#135105 - 06/14/10 12:25 AM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: Steadman]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
some companies (Mountain Hardware) are reputed to do better than rating

More than likely is that you are thinking of Western Mountaineering, rather than Mountain Hardwear. WM's reputation for excellent sleeping bags is pure gold.

If you sleep cold, then REI bags prior to their switch to the European warmth ratings are all I can speak to. They tended to be a bit less warm than their ratings, but not too badly. For instance, I have slept in their SubKilo (rated +20) in temps quite near to +20 (w/ hard frost inside the tent in the morning), and I felt warm enough, but I was wearing a full suit of 100 weight fleece inside the bag.

Top
#135128 - 06/14/10 03:48 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: aimless]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Just watch for what the rating is! A lot of American manufacturers have not adopted the European EN 13537 rating system, and their ratings therefore range from somewhat accurate to purely fictional. The EN13537 system has several different ratings, and there is a lot of difference (at least 20* C) between the "Comfort" and "Extreme" ratings. On American bags where the ENetc. rating is given, I've so far noticed only one rating listed, and the manufacturer seldom states which one it is!

Here is an explanation (page down to "How to Understand...":

Quote:
• The EN 13537 Upper Limit or Maximum Temperature is the highest temperature at which a ‘standard’ adult male is able to have a comfortable night’s sleep without excess sweating.
• The EN 13537 Comfort rating is based on a ‘standard’ woman having a comfortable night’s sleep.
• The EN 13537 Lower Limit is based on the lowest temperature at which as ‘standard’ adult male is deemed to be able to have a comfortable night’s sleep.
• The EN13537 Extreme rating is a survival only rating for a ‘standard’ adult woman. “In the risk range a strong sensation of cold has to be expected and there is a risk of health damage due to hypothermia.” This is an extreme survival rating only and it is not advisable for consumers to rely on this rating for general use. The best guideline temperatures for purchase decisions are the TComfort and TLimit ratings.


There have been some problems with the testing for these ratings, and they're not always that reliable. Most of us are not mannikins! Here's an example. In addition,
Quote:
anyone buying a 20 degree bag will be surprised when they learn that they have to sleep on a 1.5 inch pad, wear long underwear, socks, and a hat to achieve the temperature rating that they thought the bag was rated for.


I personally would want a bag that was at least 5 degrees F warmer than the "Comfort" rating! And I normally sleep in long underwear, socks and a hat!



Edited by OregonMouse (06/14/10 04:19 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#135133 - 06/14/10 04:32 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: OregonMouse]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Virginia
Oregon Mouse

That is precisely why I'm asking about how solid REI's bag ratings are because they are not on the EN 13537 system.

The bag I'm looking at is an REI Sub Kilo: http://www.rei.com/product/780902

Which supposedly is a 20 degree bag.

I'm cross comparing to Campmor's down bags.

NOT interested in a Western Mountianering or Mountain Hardware bag unless I can get it on sale - $400 is a little more than I'm willing to spend for my rate of use at this time.

Top
#135140 - 06/14/10 05:20 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: Steadman]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
The SubKilo is a discontinued model sleeping bag, but REI's newer bags do use the EN13537 system. What they don't say is which rating they are using or what the other ratings are. Because the SubKilo is a discontinued model, there are awesome prices on it at REI Outlet, especially with this week's additional 20% off coupon (expires 6/17). I got one for my grandson (not used yet) last fall with the last 20% off Outlet coupon. I'm thinking of getting the women's model for my granddaughter, although she's not ready for a down bag yet (still the occasional accident at night). I just assume that, as with most US-made bags, the rating is 5-10* overstated. At the current prices ($128 for the regular with the 20% off coupon, and free shipping), it's certainly a far better buy than the Campmor bag--better quality down, for starters, and therefore lighter for the actual warmth and probably longer lasting.

In other words, if your budget isn't up to a high-end sleeping bag, I'd go ahead and order the SubKilo while that coupon is in effect--you can't lose, IMHO! You can always add clothing layers to get it to its rated temp or a little below. It would, however, not make a good winter bag if you expect temperatures below 20*. Even with our mild Pacific NW climate, I'd want a 10 degree bag for winter.

Most American bag manufacturers plus Montbell, refuse to use the EN13537 ratings. I hope we can convince them to change their minds! The system isn't great, but it's a lot better than the fictional ratings of many manufacturers! With Montbell and Western Mountaineering, it's no big deal because their ratings are well-known to be accurate (or, in the case of WM, conservative). The rest, though....


Edited by OregonMouse (06/14/10 05:41 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#135143 - 06/14/10 06:40 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: OregonMouse]
taM Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville, TN
Sub-kilo is my only down bag, and I like it fairly well, especially for what I paid for it (ended up being like 150 shipped). It was right on its stated weight, packs down to nothing, pretty good zipper, etc. Like I said, for the sale price, it's a great bag.

It's a smidge snug through the corners if you're broad shouldered, but it's fine for me (5' 10" 165).

As for the truth of the rating, I'd say it's overstated by 5-10 degrees. I've had it down to just below 30 and was starting to get a bit cool, but still comfortable enough to sleep. Another 5 degrees and I would have been getting uncomfortable. I wouldn't take it to 20 degrees without extra clothing, a liner, bivy sack, etc.

Good piece of gear for the price you can get them at right now. I'm considering grabbing another one and butchering it for a quilt...that's doubtful though.
_________________________
Light, Cheap, Durable...
pick two

Top
#135144 - 06/14/10 06:49 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: Steadman]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Just looked at the woman's bag online (for my granddaughter) and it's supposedly a 15* bag. Probably 20-25 might be more like it. I have two more days to make up my mind. For the OP, this might be a warmer bag if it fits ("Tall" for women is up to 6 feet, probably not over 5'10" in actual practice). I still don't think that even a 20* Western Mountaineering bag (which I have) would be quite warm enough for winter camping, although I've had it down to 15* with supplemental clothing. What are the winter lows up on the Blue Ridge?

It's true that with the additional 20% off, it's almost worth it if you just need the down, lol!


Edited by OregonMouse (06/14/10 06:50 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#135145 - 06/14/10 06:52 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: taM]
Kent W Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 607
Loc: IL.
I was wondering if anyone had experience with the sub kilo myself. Logged on and answers were already hear. I ordered the long today!It will be two pounds lighter than my old snow lion synthetic at 30 plus years old. I want a wm but cant afford it right now. I hope the rei bag lives up. I am six foot and maybe could have ordered a regular, but reveiws say shoulder girth is a bit tight on the reg. The long has additional girth.Long is a touch heavyer but still half what I was carrying! I just need a three season bag right now anyhow.wish me luck! At 150.00 delivered with tax, a hard deal to beat right now. I have been looking a couple monthes myself.

Top
#135150 - 06/14/10 08:14 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: Kent W]
taM Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville, TN
one thing I noticed, and perhaps it's not unusual with down bags, but after a few outings, maybe 10 total nights of being used, the bag seemed low on loft. It was slow to puff back up when I pulled it out of the bag in the evening, and didn't seem as thick as when I first got it.

I tossed it in the dryer at home on the lowest setting for around 5-10 min, and the loft really seemed to recover. Perhaps this is not unusual, but I thought it might be worth mention. I think most of this is attributable to one night I got hot in the bag, and sweated some. I didn't have a chance to give it time to dry out before re-packing, and I think that might have caused some loft loss. Either way, after a short ride in the dryer, the loft is as good or better than the first day I had it.
_________________________
Light, Cheap, Durable...
pick two

Top
#135186 - 06/15/10 04:33 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: taM]
Kent W Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 607
Loc: IL.
I dont plan to compress as much as I will stuff loose into bottom of the g4 pack I am making. I think they all lose a little loft when compressed multiple days.

Top
#135287 - 06/18/10 05:46 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: taM]
Kent W Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 607
Loc: IL.
Sub Kilo came today! It is a very slender bag but will work fine. I am awarm sleeper and will seldom zip all the way unless in gets very cold . I am right at six feet tall and glad I ordered the Long, as a reg would not have worked for me. Weight came in right at two pounds in provided stuff sack. I am going to make a silnylon stuff sack and drop a couple ounces. Weighs half what my old bag did so I am on the right track. Happy Trails

Top
#135295 - 06/18/10 11:32 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: Kent W]
taM Offline
member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 112
Loc: Nashville, TN
did yours come with a compression sack too?

mine came with a relatively heavy compression sack...doesn't really matter though, as I keep it in a drybag with my down jacket.
_________________________
Light, Cheap, Durable...
pick two

Top
#135307 - 06/19/10 04:46 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: taM]
Kent W Offline
member

Registered: 10/15/09
Posts: 607
Loc: IL.
It is not a compression sack but a rather heavy 7x15 inch stuff sack. I will whip a sylnylon sack for it however, if i use the g4 pack instead of mountain smith I will just stuff in disposer bag in bottom of pack.

Top
#135308 - 06/19/10 05:04 PM Re: REI bags - how close to rating do they perform [Re: Kent W]
TomD Offline
Moderator

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 4963
Loc: Marina del Rey,CA
The EIN 1357 ratings are good for comparing bags tested under the same system. One thing to beware of is how companies use the ratings. I've seen bags advertised at a temp that really is the survival rating once you see the full specs.

I have an old down bag, but I know the rating on it (not EIN 1357 as far as I know) is accurate for me because I have used it at the rated temp and below.

Sleeping on a pad or in winter, two pads, plus wearing a base layer and maybe even socks and a hat will help a lot if you are close to the rating temp. I wear a base layer anyway in winter and prefer to sleep in it.
_________________________
Don't get me started, you know how I get.

Top

Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
Featured Photos
Spiderco Chaparral Pocketknife
David & Goliath
Also Testing
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
0 registered (), 257 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Noodles, McCrary, DanyBacky, Rashy Willia, WanderBison
13240 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
Backpacking.net
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 

Affiliate Disclaimer: This forum is an affiliate of BackcountryGear.com, Amazon.com, R.E.I. and others. The product links herein are linked to their sites. If you follow these links to make a purchase, we may get a small commission. This is our only source of support for these forums. Thanks.!
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum