I want to remind everyone that this is a beginners group. It is irresponsible to suggest potentially dangerous methods to people without the experience and judgment to know when they are in danger. Sure us experienced guys get away with a lot of really dangerous stuff BECAUSE we are experienced. I solo climb 5.9 but I don't suggest it to beginners. Recommending crampons on tennis shoes to someone with no ice experience who doesn't know how to self arrest with a hiking pole and owns no ice axe is irresponsible. These guys don't even know what an avalanche slope is.
Behave and save your dangerous methods for other groups. This is a place for more conservative and yes heavier methods.
just my $.02 worth
Jim

Of the last one hundred threads in this group there have been two cautionary threads about being prepared and some of the dangers out there. I started both of them. And then people argue and say I'm too conservative.

My sister in law has two neighbors who went backpacking before the rains in the Sierras and didn't tell anyone where they were going. They were supposed to have come home last Monday, its Saturday and no one even knows where to look for them. What happens when it rains - two things, you get wet and streams rise. What happens when you cross a creek and come back to a river? Do you suppose they never thought about drowning when they hiked in?

Has every one lost their sense of prospective? Its insane to suggest to beginners that going into wilderness without a clue or any experience is a safe thing to do. We have people planning to do the PCT asking about footwear, we have people intending to hike to AT with a poncho for rain cover. Why are we concerned only with the weight of their gear and not whether they return? Are we collectively so naive that we think that there is no danger out there? Isn't it our responsibility to warn people about what could happen? To never cross streams hiking in without a clear way back across? We suggest a compass and map knowing that they do not have a clue about how to use them all the time giving them a false sense of security...
Jim

FRIENDS FOUND
(01-23) 19:47 PST CLEAR LAKE, LAKE COUNTY --

A Fremont couple who hadn't been heard from since last weekend after leaving for a camping trip were found safe Saturday in rural Lake County .

A helicopter pilot hired by the family of Ryan Barrett saw the 31-year-old and his girlfriend Viola Liu, 31, walking near Elk Mountain Road north of Clear Lake around 3:30 p.m., said Barrett's aunt, Patricia Jennings.

The helicopter, with Barrett's uncle and cousin inside acting as spotters, evacuated them. They were headed home Saturday evening.

"They're fine," Jennings said. "They're tired and hungry and thirsty, but fine. And so are their dogs," she said, referring to the three dogs that accompanied the couple on their trip.

The couple left for Lake County on Jan. 16, intending to stay two nights. But Jennings said they got trapped when rain and snow hit the region and their two-wheel-drive vehicle couldn't traverse the streams they crossed on the way there.

The couple happened upon a cabin, where they stayed a couple of nights, Jennings said. They survived on the provisions they had brought, including freeze-dried food.

On Saturday morning they set out to try to hike to civilization and were spotted by the helicopter, Jennings said.

Jim is 100% right. Experience is what allows you to get away with using some of the lightweight methods and visiting some of the more remote areas. Also I think that we all are still learning and sometimes I think I was lucky to survive my early trips. Especially when I think back to leading groups of highschool kids as the "experienced" guy with only a small amount of trail time myself.

Find someone to learn from but use your common sense, if the guy seems like he's blownin' smoke he probably is.

One other thing I can't stress enough for new hikers is physical fitness. Your ability to endure physical hardship can help make up for your inexperience. When you do something stupid or get caught in a bad situation you can probably hike out if you're in good shape, if not you might be SOL.

Of course I agree with Jim, at least for the most part on this.

But --- not because I like to argue (!) --- I'd like to lay out a somewhat different perspective.

I think it can be perilous (and not by anyone here, but in some cases perhaps even arrogant, patronizing) to treat the words "beginner" and "idiot" as synomyms. I think it can be fine to make beginners aware that there are approaches, techniques, equipment, solutions that require expertise that should be learned or developed over time, depending on how that's done.

I also think there's a downside in being too conservative, and I see that in various fields. At the risk of "excessive eloquence", let me give an example ...

I used to teach investment classes, and it was common practice to give overly-conservative "rules of thumb" about certain things to beginners. The idea being, I guess, that with experience the beginner could transcend the initial "rule" and use their experience to do what made most sense for them.
The catch with this is that several times I got into discussions with people about how to make a particular judgement where the whole thrust of their argument was "When I was first taught, I was told that ...". I.e., we humans seem to have a tendency to anchor and hold fast to the rules of thumb that we're taught early on. Our initial instructor sometimes has a disproportionate impact on our long-term views on things.

That's the context in which I get a little nervous about hard and fast "always do this", "never do that" rules in any field of endeavor. I think the best suggestions take the form of "When you're first starting out, stick to X, and maybe you'll be interested in trying Y after you've got the basics down".

I'd also say that sometimes an effort to be conservative with suggestions to beginners could make them ultimately over-reliant on equipment, i.e., if the suggestions come in the form of particular equipment choices, the underlying message received might unfortunately be something like "if I take enough of the right type of equipment, I'm bound to be safe" --- where as I think someone else already said, it's more experience and wise choices that make us safe in the woods.

To be clear, I don't offer the above words in argument with anyone (!), just expanding related ideas.

BrianLe

I don't think I ever implied that beginners are idiots, but by definition they do not have experience in a back country setting. Big City smarts do not keep people from walking off cliffs and it is dangerous to think that a walk in the woods is the same as a walk in central park. When people ask what kind of shoes should to wear, its because they lack the personal experience to know for themselves, not because they are idiots. It takes good judgment to lead a group into the wilderness, this is why people used to hire guides, now days people think "Oh its no big deal, its like walking to the store", its not.
Jim

I used to teach scuba diving in Hawaii. As an instructor, I saw a huge difference between beginners. Some people were like me and were very comfortable in the water. On the other hand, I sometimes saw certified divers who freaked out over a little wind chop and wouldn't get off the boat. It wasn't about the gear, it was about their skill and confidence level.

The same thing applies here. We have everyone from people with thousands of days in the back country to newbies who've never done an overnight trip posting on this site. This forum in particular is for beginners and I agree to a certain extent with Jim that sometimes posters forget that when recommending particular pieces of gear or technique to someone they don't know.

A "beginner" who is ex-military or grew up hunting is going to have a lot more confidence in the outdoors than someone who has never done anything except maybe walk through a local park. But, most of the time, we don't know anything except that someone has asked a beginner question.

I think the most prudent approach is to assume someone who says they are a beginner is a true beginner unless they say otherwise, which sometimes they do. I can't dictate what people post, but as a moderator, if I see something totally inappropriate, I may, in consultation with the other moderators and the site owner, pull certain posts. Is that censorship? Yes. But keep in mind, this site belongs to the site owner. You have no First Amendment rights here. I'll skip the ConLaw lecture, but don't bother whining about it, you are wrong.

Erring on the side of caution is a virtue. People get hurt or killed in the backcountry all the time for all kinds of reasons. Inexperience is one of them. Let's not contribute to those statistics.

Good point. I'll keep it in mind as I try to put something together on clothing and gear.

One other frequent beginner perspective is that they don't know, when they begin, if they're going to stay with this pastime. As a result, cost is more of a consideration with a beginner (usually) than with someone who's already decided they really like backpacking. That's something else I'll keep in mind: they're probably not ready to sink a ton into 850-fill down jackets, but they need to be cautioned that a $5 fleece from Dollar General may not get them through a blizzard.

JimShaw,
I seem to recall another long-time poster on this forum that used to say the same thing.....his name started with an E,
"Earthling" I think it was.

and that is a good thing.


ps...I didn't take BrianLe's post to infer that you implied anything. I think it is just another point of view,so to speak. And as TomD said, someone with hunting and outdoor expiernce but is new to backpacking is different than someone that is completely new to the 'outdoors'.

Just my $0.0005

Re light vs. heavy: There is also the problem that carrying heavy gear can result in injury (been there, done that). However, it is true that going ultralight (under approximately 10-12 lbs. base weight) is definitely not for the inexperienced! Even the SUL'ers over at BPL say this!

One thing I really like about the articles on the home page of this site is that they give a really good balance between being light enough to be comfortable yet sufficient to be safe and comfortable!

On the other hand, gear cannot substitute for skills, and the latter are extremely important. I'm hoping to work up an article that describes the skills that one needs to learn and the best way to learn them. One of the most important, of course, is regulating body temperature. Another is to learn to recognize your physical limitations before you get close to your limit. When I get there (it will probably be a month or two), I hope you will all comment on it!

Malarky. While physical fitness will help it is absolutely no substitute for letting you "do something stupid". You need to be able to walk, and you need to be prepared for the conditions you'll face, and you need to be able to keep track of where you are.

Sorry, as a fat guy who knows how to walk I just can't agree with this.. seen too many marathon runner types in the bush with this same attitude - they can't possibly get in trouble because they run daily and are in great shape.

While better physical conditioning will help you in any endeavor, it's NOT something to rely on to get you out of a situation. Do you need to be a marathon runner to hike? no. it's just walking. get out and do it. just don't be silly about it.

I would be so bold as to say that inexperience is the number one reason. I once had occasion to review about fifty or so of our groups SAR operations. The one common thread running through virtually all of them was the relative inexperience of the victim(s). We occasionally assisted truly practiced individuals, but it was a really rare event.

I used to live in New Zealand. SAR reports from the Arthur's Pass area are posted online and I still occasionally check them out. The weather at AP can be unpredictable and harsh regardless of the season, so knowing what you are doing up there is really important.

The reports are pretty candid and often point out lack of proper gear, lack of navigation skills or lack of other skills, including climbing, as the cause of the rescue or unfortunately, the occasional fatality.

In one instance, an inexperienced hiker was abandoned by her friends to fend for herself while they retreated to safety. They were also stupid enough to tell her the water wasn't safe to drink, which as anyone in NZ should know is totally untrue above what I call the "sheep line." The rescuers recommendation to her was pretty funny, but true-get some new friends.

A person must take risks to gain experience.

It's almost like Catch 22:

You have to take risks to get experience.
You have to have experience to make reasonable decisions about what risks are acceptable.

I guess that's why SAR is such a well-developed organization.

Which really points to the crux of it - this person "got themselves into it" - and yet as a beginner did everything "right" - went out with more experienced people and listened to their advice.

Kind of hard to blame a newbie when subjected to that.

Mind you the water advice is priceless. In a survival situation anything not outright toxic is drinkable. dehydration kills you a lot quicker and surer than any bug
you can catch from the water.

Very true, but it helps to start by taking those risks close to the trailhead where you can bail out if everything goes wrong. That's why I'm an advocate of practicing first in the backyard and then going only a mile or two from the trailhead the first few times out.

The so-called "friends" who abandoned the beginner like that should be stood up and shot!

Hi, I'm a beginner and joined this forum and the Appalchian Mountain Club to increase my knowledge on backpacking and camping. I've just turned 58 and have a lot of interests that create a foundation to build on. I sail, day hike, run, used to flat water canoe race, orienteer, and car camp, etc. etc.

Have been around the block a bit I believe in everything in moderation. After awhile what is considered moderation has seemed to grow. Just finished a good book "Not Without Peril" about the history of people's misfortunes on Mt. Washington. It appears that a cross section of people find themselves in trouble, from ignorant novices, overconfident experienced people, the unlucky, and the incredibly lucky. Granted the experienced person is less likely to succomb to some of the more common misfortunes of the inexperienced person in the backcountry. But some do look for greater challanges to test or expand their skills that a beginner wouldn't consider trying. Its gambling with the law of averages, even with experience increasing your odds. You wont find me ice climbing unless my plane crashed on the mountain.

You can't learn to swim by reading about it, you have to get wet. Just don't try to go out to the diving raft till you learn to swim. There is always a level of risk when learning something new, just remember everything in moderation.

Sorry to ramble on, this is my first ever post to a forum. Should have listen to my own advice on moderation, see you around.

Phat, NZ has no native mammals. Once you are above the sheep stations, the likelihood of drinking contaminated water is just about zero. The challenge there is weather. I've seen it go from a warm sunny day to a major storm in a few hours. Anyone who goes out unprepared for bad weather is asking for trouble.

As for the idea that you have to take risks to gain experience, I don't buy it. Depends on your definition of risk, I suppose, but there is much you can learn with little or no risk at all. I don't think I've taken any risks on my solo winter trips and yet I think I have learned a fair amount about winter camping on those trips.

The beginner engages in risky behavior and doesn't even realize it. The experienced know their behavior is risky, most likely have decent knowledge of the degree of risk involved, and engage willingly.

Concerning physical fitness, here's a page from our website that discusses the issue:

1. OMG—You must be SO strong and fit. I could never do that.

People don’t really mean this. What they mean is that they are so lazy and comfortable sitting on the sofa that they don’t see any reason to get up and get out into the mountains. But they can’t say that, so they say this instead.

And no, we are not Olympic athletes. We are in pretty good shape, but we have met lots of people who are not in great shape who have a wonderful time backpacking.

And here is the crazy part. People who quake at the thought of hiking four miles through the mountains will then spend six hours walking through a shopping mall carrying bags full of unnecessary stuff. Which is harder? We’d have a much harder time doing the shopping! And in six hours, they will certainly walk more than four miles. Go figure.

How many miles do we walk in a day? The most we've done with packs is about 13. Without packs, about 16. If you figure that we're walking two miles an hour, the distance isn't so much about how hard we are working, but simply how many hours we continue to put one foot in front of the other.

On the other hand, it is amazing to us how few people actually get out and walk even two miles. When we went to Yellowstone National Park a few years ago, we were warned that all the good hiking is in the Grand Tetons. Nonsense. We got out of our car, hiked about a mile, and suddenly found ourselves alone in Yellowstone--no people, just wonderful scenery and an occasional wild animal.

You don't have to walk far to get that kind of experience. But you do have to take the first step.

And another one about dangers on the trail!

The irony about the Sierra Nevada is that the things that most people worry about really aren’t much of a problem. And the things that really can create life-threatening situations are pretty much off the radar for most hikers. Weird, huh?

In all of our years in the Sierra, we’ve never seen anyone get bitten by a snake or attacked by a bear. But we have seen people in varying stages of hypothermia and dehydration. And we’ve seen other people who were well on their way to problems in that regard. So what is the single biggest danger in the Sierra Nevada for hikers? We think it is hypothermia, followed by dehydration and getting lost.

Hypothermia

Simply put, hypothermia is when your body can no longer maintain that perfect 98.6 degree temperature, and starts to cool down. That is a bad thing—because when your body starts to feel as if it can’t keep you warm, it tends to focus on keeping your vital organs warm: your torso. And that means less blood to your arms, legs, and head. Your head is where your brain is…and less blood there tends to make to you tired, sleepy, and a little stupid. When that happens, the most logical solutions to the problem may not appear so logical to you---and you start making mistakes that only make things worse.

The obvious solution is to get warm. The even more obvious solution is to not get cold at all. That means paying attention to the weather reports, understanding how hypothermia can happen, and bringing along enough clothes to make sure that you are prepared for any situation. Getting wet makes hypothermia much more likely, because the moisture saps your body of heat really fast.

How likely is that? We have seen rain during every month of the year in the Sierra, and above 10,000 feet, that rain can become snow without a second thought. So yes, be prepared for rain and snow, even if the weather looks perfect. Even on a day hike. Waterproof outer layers should be in your pack. Fleece inner layers should be on your body, or available. And if you are staying overnight, shelter should be an option wherever you are.

When the weather turns cold and wet (and this can happen in fifteen minutes in the mountains) don’t plod on until you really start to feel cold, or until you are ready to make camp. That’s a sure way to get stupid, and then the rest of your decisions will be questionable. Immediately put on your rain gear, and look for places to set up your shelter. Don’t get cold and then try to get warm---stay warm and make smart choices. Warm and sheltered, your mind and body can survive for many days. Cold and stupid, your chances go way down quickly.

Our rule? If you start to think about hypothermia, that’s the time to do something about it. Don’t wait until you are sure, because you won’t be able to trust your mind to make a good decision by then.

Dehydration

In the High Sierra, the air is so dry and thin that you really don’t notice how much sweat is evaporating off your skin. It is gone before you notice it. (If you are wearing a pack, the back of your shirt may well be soaked—but the rest of your body will be dry. Pay attention to your shirt, not the rest of your body!) Because keeping your body hydrated is really important.

On the one hand, your body can survive for two to three weeks without food, but it can only survive a few days without water. But there is an even worse danger with dehydration: it can also create a real imbalance in your electrolytes, and that makes your brain do all sorts of unexpected things, from headaches and hallucinations to just plain stupid.

There’s that stupid problem again.

We have a simple rule about dehydration, too. If you don’t have to pee every couple of hours, you are probably getting dehydrated. Stop, drink all the water you have, and then make a plan for how you are going to proceed. You never get any prizes for arriving at a water source or a campsite with lots of water in your bottles. You often get punished for making dumb mistakes because you are dehydrated.

If you have done much hiking, you have seen dehydrated hikers. They are plodding along, mouth open, gasping. They may even tell you that they are not dehydrated, because they are not even sweating. If you are not sweating during a hike, it’s because you are so dehydrated that your body can no longer produce perspiration. And it’s a function of that dehydration that your brain thinks that this is a good thing. Stupid.

People who are dehydrated make dumb mistakes, like passing up a water source to make better time to the next one, or missing a trail junction because they aren’t paying attention. And then they get more dehydrated. And they make more stupid decisions.

Again, the solution is preparation. Take plenty of water. Plan your trip so that you are sure where you can get water, and fill up. Drink until you have to pee, all during the day. And if you think you are getting dehydrated, drink and rest until you know you are not. If you think you are not dehydrated, that isn’t good enough!

Getting lost

It is actually pretty hard to get lost in most of the entry level hiking areas of the Sierra Nevada. The trails are well marked, and there are enough people on them to ask a question or two if you are feeling a little confused. When you add those facts to the great USGS website that allows you to get free topographical maps every hike, and there is really very little excuse for getting lost in the Sierra.

Except that people do it all the time.

We’ve met people in the Sierra who were literally FIFTEEN TRAIL MILES from where they thought they were, and it had only, in the previous ten minutes, occurred to them that something might be wrong. It was after 3 p.m., and they had one bottle of water between the two of them, no warm clothes, and about 9 miles to hike before nightfall.

As with the previous two dangers, the first solution is to be prepared, and not get lost at all. You should always have a compass and map, and know how to use them. GPS units are great, but they can sometimes lead you to within 500 yards of your rescue: the problem being that those 500 yards are straight up or down a cliff. And when you are dehydrated or hypothermic, you think maybe that it wouldn’t be too hard to climb down that cliff. After all, it’s only 500 yards! Ahem.

Don’t get lost. Use a map, and track your progress on the map. Look for landmarks as you go along. If you don’t find them, little alarm bells should start ringing in your head. When you do find them, confirm them on the map, so you know where you are. It often helps to do these calculations with everyone in your group—just to make sure that your navigator isn’t a little confused.

If you do get lost, don’t panic. The best thing you can do when you are lost is to sit down, have a nice snack, drink a lot of water, make sure you are warm, and think. Go back to that map and find where you were the last time you were sure you were on the trail. And then look for solutions. If you are on a trail, DO NOT LEAVE THAT TRAIL! Sometimes it’s just a question of you getting tired, and you having slowed down. Another ½ mile and your destination will appear. Sometimes you have taken a wrong turn. Sometimes the trail is poorly marked, and you’ve lost it. Sit down and think. It is ALWAYS better to wait for someone to come along than it is to start running.

Whatever you do, don’t start running up and down the mountains in a panic. If you do that, you will not drink enough water. You may get hypothermic. And you will almost certainly make some really bad decisions. With luck, you will get found before you do something stupid. But every year someone gets lost in the Sierra, and doesn’t get found until they have died. Don’t get lost.

Altitude and Acclimatization

No, this doesn't mean that you should try to air condition your tent. But at 10,000 feet, your body is getting a lot less oxygen than it does at sea level, and that has some real repercussions. While altitude sickness won't generally kill you at the kinds of elevations we see in the Sierra, (the Himalayas are another question!) it can make you really unhappy. And that's no fun for you or your companions.

What are the symptoms? Similar to de-hydration, you can first notice a headache, and general weakness. You often lose your appetite, and this can lead to full-blown nausea and vomiting. And a worse headache.

What fun!

The solution is to acclimatize slowly. M swears that she always does better when she spends a night at 3000-5000 feet before we head up into the high country. And she does much worse if we just drive up and start hiking. The worst case we ever had was a day when we drove up from sea level, set up camp, and then climbed Mt Hoffman, which is over 10,000 feet. M felt awful, and continued to feel awful even after going to bed early. She woke up in the middle of the night and vomited numerous times, entertaining the neighbors in the campground.

The next morning she felt pretty good, and for the next four days we hiked at altitude without any real problems.

So take it easy. If you feel bad, stop, rest, and even head back downhill.

And lay off the alcohol--a really bad idea at high elevations! It both dehydrates you and makes you stupid!

Wild Animals!

Ah! This is the stuff that everybody wants to talk about. Wild bears who attack campers in the middle of dinner. Ferocious pumas who lie in wait behind every tree. Snakes that crawl into your sleeping bag at night!

Sorry. Doesn’t happen. Since 1980 there have been a total of twelve reported attacks by black bears in California. That’s an average of less than one attack every two years. Most occurred in developed campgrounds or rural urban interfaces, not in the wilderness. None were fatal. In that same time period, there have been exactly the same number of reported puma attacks—most near the rural urban interface, and none in wilderness areas. Almost all involved children or small adults. Roughly 800 people this year will be bitten by rattlesnakes, and one or two of those bites will result in death.

So you are not going to get killed or eaten by wild animals. In contrast, some 370,000 Americans are bitten by dogs badly enough to need treatment at the emergency room, and nearly 4,000 people will die in traffic accidents in California this year. If you want to be safe, get out backpacking in the high Sierra and STOP DRIVING YOUR CAR!

Actually, the only death attributed to a wild animal in the history of Yosemite National Park was a young boy who was killed by a deer. The boy was attempting to hug the deer to pose for a photo, and the deer kicked him, slicing open an artery.

Again, we have a few solutions. When you are in the wilderness, understand that you are in wild country. Pay attention. Bears are attracted by odors of food, so limit the amount of food smells you create. Store your food in bearproof containers to keep them from getting used to the idea that hikers mean food. Most developed campgrounds in our parks these days provide steel bear boxes for your food, and since those have been installed, bear damage to vehicles and camping equipment has drastically declined.

Pumas generally attack small people who are alone. They attack from behind. If you see a puma, stand up tall and face it. Fight back. Scream for help from nearby hikers. Write about it later, and make lots of money from the TV movie.

Rattlesnakes generally try to avoid people, and often will start to take defensive action when they feel your footsteps approach. Leave them alone. Don’t put your hand where you can’t see, and don’t climb cliffs blindly.

Want some really interesting statistics? 130 Americans are killed by deer every year. 65 are struck by lightning. 100 are killed by bees. 20 are killed by cows. Makes you wonder, huh?

Most importantly, drive very carefully to the trailhead. Your chances of dying are 4,000 times higher on the highway than they are on the trail.

Yeah, I have to agree with TomD here. I don't think I've ever taken any real risks when I've been hiking or backpacking. Like phat said, it's just walking.

I think that pointing out how to avoid and minimize real risks should be a main objective when advising a beginner. Experience is what gives one insight to do that.

I don't do many trail hikes. I don't climb snow covered mountain peaks or cliff faces either. I bushwhack around inside the forests where there are no trails. My insight is pretty much limited to what you might expect where I've done that, how I did it, and the gear I used.

Based on that, I think I'm qualified to advise against heading off into the Ozark Forests in the middle of August. People still do it though. A lot of them never go backpacking again. The risk of death is very low. The chances of being miserable are pretty good though

Your first experience tends to stick with you. I think we owe it to beginners seeking advice that what we offer helps ensure their trip will be safe and enjoyable.

Although there have been a couple of mountain lion attacks down here, including at least one fatality, maybe two if I recall correctly, I agree that far more people are killed or injured due to getting lost and dying from exposure. It happened a couple of years ago to a PCT hiker up above Palm Springs. He's the one whose gear was found by the lost couple and that saved them.

I also agree that beginners may not realize they are doing something risky. When I was diving, I think even as a beginner, I could figure out what was risky and what wasn't, but for hiking, it is much different because good weather can create a false sense of security.