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#126429 - 01/07/10 12:02 PM input needed abut first aid kit
Darwin Offline


Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 43
Loc: Bloomington, IN, USA
What do you recommend to be included in a first aid kit for 7-14 day trek?
-It will be just me on the trail.

-I will be hiking in the spring or fall, and will be in North America in mountain areas.

-I will be hiking on-trail.

-I don't have any first aid training.

-I don't have any allergies.


Edited by Darwin (01/07/10 09:42 PM)

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#126439 - 01/07/10 01:42 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Darwin]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
Your answers will improve if you can give us more information, such as:

How many hikers will be served by the contents of the kit?

What season will you be hiking in, and in what location?

Will you be going off-trail?

What sort of training do you have? (Because there's no sense taking items you won't know hiow to use.)

Do you or any of the other hikers have specific medical needs, such as allergies, to take into consideration?

There are probably several more good questions I am missing here, but the more you say, the better the forum members can sort out the details for you. Otherwise, there's just not much useful to tell you, based on the scanty info you provided.

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#126449 - 01/07/10 03:57 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: aimless]
Broadway Offline
newbie

Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 8
Loc: Western NC
Generically, what would you say should go into a first aid kit, no matter the circumstance?


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#126454 - 01/07/10 04:30 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Broadway]
aimless Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/05/03
Posts: 3292
Loc: Portland, OR
1. Some kind of painkiller. Ibuprofen has good anti-inflammatory qualities that, for me, make it a slight favorite over aspirin or tylenol (acetominophen).

2. A few gauze pads (you can cut them to size), adhesive tape (or, in a pinch, duct tape can be used) and antibacterial ointment (e.g. neosporin).

3. Some way to treat blisters. For me that means a steel needle I can sterilize with a flame to lance them. I often use the adhesive tape (see above) to protect the area. See also: antibacterial ointment (above), in case of infected blisters. Other people like moleskin. Or other products specific to blisters.

4. A small basic first aid booklet, of recent vintage. If it gives much space to making and using tourniquets, it's too old.

5. Any personal medications you take.

It is possible to go far, far beyond these few bare basics I've just mentioned. For example, anti-diarrheal pills are popular, as are anti-histimines such as benedryl. Even antacids. Once you get started, there's really no obvious stopping place apart from personal preference.

Many multi-purpose items can be leveraged in first aid situations. For example, the ubiquitous bandana is extremely useful. Alcohol you brought for your alcohol stove can also become a hand-sterilizer before handling a wound. Duct tape can be helpful if you need a splint stabilized in place.

But by far the best aid in a first aid situation is knowledge. Spend some time visualizing emergencies that might arise and how you might handle them. Take a first aid class. Read a mountaineering medicine book.

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#126458 - 01/07/10 06:53 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Broadway]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Training. Without that, you are just a bull in a china shop.

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#126472 - 01/07/10 09:42 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: aimless]
Darwin Offline


Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 43
Loc: Bloomington, IN, USA
Thank you so much for your input. Here's the answers to the above questions:

-It will be just me on the trail.

-I will be hiking in the spring or fall, and will be in North America in mountain areas.

-I will be hiking on-trail.

-I don't have any first aid training.

-I don't have any allergies.

Where can I get info on first aid training?

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#126474 - 01/07/10 10:06 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Darwin]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Darwin - good one goodjob I think maybe he didn't read your post... Wake up Aimless crazy

I carry some Tylenol, Vicodin, a couple bandaids, nail clippers, chap stick, sun lotion, a couple CCs of liquid soap and a tiny bottle of liquid tears to clean junk out of my eyes.

You can of course carry a lot more, but most people are prepared for the last thing that happened, not the next. I had one of those blue hydro gel thingies and it came in handy when friend had a bad abrasion. Maybe a tiny foil packet of polysporin, but really most injuries are minor things that you shrug off except for broken bones and knowing how to deal with that is a good idea as is your strong pain reliever of choice.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#126479 - 01/07/10 11:17 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Darwin]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Try the American Red Cross for first aid classes. What they give you is the type where 911 is right around the corner, but it's good for a start, and at least teaches you the general principles of the initial approach, triage, how to do CPR and to stabilize things for the short term. The Red Cross occasionally offers backcountry or wilderness first aid courses. NOLS offers them around the country. These are generally 16-hour courses taking place over 2 days and generally cost about $200. You can find out the nearest ones by googling. If nothing else, at least try to get the simple 4-hour course offered at most workplaces. My church offered one for free last spring. It wasn't comprehensive but was an excellent review for me and was certainly excellent for those who had never had first aid.

One thing a good first aid course will teach you is how to improvise things like splints and such from what you have rather than taking an extensive (and heavy!) first aid kit that you'll probably never use. Of course if you're going with a party and are responsible for the group first-aid kit, you'll need more--but if this happens you'll also need the training.

My kit is mostly bandaids, moleskin, "Second Skin," a few non-stick gauze pads, two one-time packs of antibiotic ointment, one or two sanitary napkins (which per my first aid instructor make the best compresses for heavy bleeding), a few pills--lotromin, benadryl, tylenol. For my dog I take buffered aspirin, an extra-large size doggie boot to cover a bandaged pad, and self-adhering veterinary wrap, which (with a little duct tape reinforcement on the outside) works fine for human sprains, too. All the rest of my stuff (except tylenol, which is poisonous for dogs) can be used on either me or the dog. As you may notice, my kit ia pretty heavily slanted towards blisters and minor cuts. I also have a couple of clean empty ziplock sandwich bags in there to use for wound irrigation (put tiny hole in one corner of bag and squeeze).

Be sure your kit includes any medications you personally need to take. Label them well. Any narcotics should have the prescription label on them and should never be given to anyone else.

Re first aid books and internet information (the latter is often not dated--never use undated information): If they mention tourniquets for anything (except an already amputated limb), or snake bite treatment consisting of cut-and-suck, venous tourniquets or Sawyer extractors, they are woefully out of date and should not be used. This per my-son-in-law-the-ER-physician. CPR has also changed (since my prior course in 1998)--it's now 2 ventilations to each 30 compressions.

_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#126490 - 01/08/10 08:14 AM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Darwin]
PerryMK Offline
member

Registered: 01/18/02
Posts: 1391
Loc: Florida panhandle
First aid training is first.

Of course the usual bandaids, gauze, tylenol, etc. A luxury item in my first aid kit is Soothe-A-Sting Swabs . I also usually carry ointment for cracked heel, an antibiotic ointment (Neosporin or similar) and tweezers with magnifying glass. Sometimes I will have some peroxide or alcohol wipes disinfecting.

Not necessarily part of a first aid kit but related: hand lotion to prevent chapping, lip balm/chapstick, and of course sanitizing gel to keep hands clean for eating.





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#126499 - 01/08/10 10:49 AM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: PerryMK]
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 2232
Loc: Napa, CA
We often travel pretty far from the trail, but our first aid kit still isn't huge. Here's what we take:

1. Ibuprofen and a couple of tylenol (acetominophen). THese are good for lots of things, including the headaches from minor altitude sickness.

2. Gauze pads, adhesive tape and neosporin.

3. A sewing kit. Has needle and thread. First aid for both humans and your pack!


4. Moleskin

5. Sudafed--a few for allergy/irritaion/poison oak. ANd Immodium, just in case the beaver fever hits.

6. Ace Bandage--lots of applications here/

7. My wife's numerous medications.



Edited by balzaccom (01/08/10 10:49 AM)
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#126509 - 01/08/10 01:00 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: balzaccom]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Virginia
Darwin

The "What First Aid Kit?" topic in the Lite Gear Forum (started in April of this year) has some interesting answers that you may find helpful.

However, I carry "Heavy" for first aid supplies, but that is mostly because I've ended up using my kit a lot. It seems like either I'm getting hurt, or someone around me is getting hurt on every 2nd or 3rd trip. With Mr. Murphy as my constant companion, and because I plan to be able to treat other people (I am a former, no longer certified, EMT-B) what I am suggesting is probably heavier than many others here would tolerate. The first aid I'm preparing for is a combination of trauma and "mom medicine" - which no one is going to teach in one place in one course.

1. Training/knowledge - Boy Scout Handbook is a great reference for basic level first aid, and costs about 10 bucks. It will not go into ways to better plan and use OTC meds - something I'm interested in knowing more about. I'm always looking for a better resource (NOLS?). American Red Cross is a good source for training. So is the local ambulance company, but they don't do much bandaging any more - hospitals are usually close, and tape will hold the bandage on adequately for that time period.

2. Supplies
a. CPR Mask (Microshield) (remember my caveat about treating others)
b. Gloves (remember my caveat about treating others - I use rubber kitchen gloves, which can be used for multiple things and (if you wash them between patients) multiple patients in a pinch. eek
c. Triangular bandages - 2; these things are all purpose for splinting and bandaging (esp. for big wounds).
d. Ankle wrap - I replaced one of 3 triangular bandages with this b/c I tend to roll ankles.
e. Some roller guaze, 2"
f. roll of two inch tape
g. 4-10 4x4 gauze pads, depending on how long you stay out. Cut these down as needed to deal with cuts, burns, etc. See note at end.
h. Small nail/bandage scissors (need to cut down moleskin/gauze pads)
i. pack of bandaids
j. small tube antibiotic
k. personal medications
l. pain meds (tylenol, motrin - remember that they do different things and have different side affects, so I take some of each)
m. anti diaherrals (Immodium AD) - one to two courses
n. cold medicine (pills) - usually sudafed
o. Bendryl (sp?)
p. Moleskin
q. alcohol wipes (kind you use for prepping injection sites)

I probably forgot a couple things, but I need to repack my kit and it's at home. Some of these supplies go bad over time.

Note - I plan to manage an injury for one person for the entire period of the trip OR plan to expend all of my supplies on a badly hurt person, ending my trip in a medevac. I recommend you adjust the number of expendables (4x4s, bandaids, meds, tape, roller gauze) accordingly. I don't think that you should have to adjust the number of reuseable supplies (triangular bandages, ankle wrap) or REALLY BAD INJURY supplies (gloves, CPR mask) much based on trip length - but I've never been out for 1 week +, so I'll defer to those who do go out longer.

The kit I've described is really a small expedition kit - but it is also what I want for me (and carry with me when I travel for business, less the scissors) if something goes REALLY wrong. Keep in mind that I have almost emptied my kit of a given supply on a couple of occasions - once for a 1x2 inch 2nd degree burn to a kid's arm that we had to manage for the weekend.

If you plan accordingly, you can probably replace some of the bandaging supplies I've described with extra clothing (and cut the clothing up when you needed to), but going lightweight tends to remove the extra cotton t-shirt that you'd use for that sort of thing.

3. I'm going to take some kids out later in the year. What I'll probably insist that they carry is:

a. small pack bandaids
b. some moleskin
c. 2-3 triangular bandages
d. any medication that they normally need, or might need in an emergency
e. maybe a couple 4x4's. I haven't decided yet.

I've "listened" to a lot of conversations in this forum about being responsible for ourselves when we go out into the woods - what essentially amounts to "being prepared." To my mind, this is "prepared" but my level of training is different and my experience has probably been worse than average.

I always counted on the awl or knife blade on my multitool or swiss army knife for the sort of thing that many are talking about using a sewing needle for.

Thank you for letting me contribute. I look forward to "hearing" the follow on comments that this generates, particularly from the folks with SAR/EMS experience.

Steadman


Edited by Steadman (01/08/10 01:46 PM)
Edit Reason: Added an older thread reference.

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#126512 - 01/08/10 01:25 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: aimless]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Virginia
FROM AIMLESS'S POST (THE QUOTE GOT BOGGLED WHEN I TRIED:

---------------------------------------------
4. A small basic first aid booklet, of recent vintage. If it gives much space to making and using
tourniquets, it's too old.
---------------------------------------------


Aimless, the recent US Military experience in the Middle East is bringing tourniquets back into use. They've found tourniquets to be useful for treating traumatic injury (blast effects and gun shot wounds) to the extremities (arms and legs). I recall that one of the reasons they were losing people to these sorts of injuries was that they were bleeding out before they could get the victim to a surgeon. If you can get the victim to a surgeon w/in 1 hour, they've also been able to save limbs treated in this manner.

This is an old news articile, but it helps get the point across: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-te.tourniquets02may02,1,3994385.story

Obviously, the situation being discussed here is a "life or limb" situation with uncontrollable bleeding - the sort of thing you'd use a tourniquet for in pre-war experience as well. The basic line of thought here WAS: direct pressure, elevate, pressure points, and THEN tourniquet.

What has changed is that tourniquets have moved up in the menu of options when someone gets shot or blown up - because they are bleeding out FAST due to cut or torn arteries and veins. To give you an idea of how seriously military medics are starting to think about this, one I knew pressed several tourniquets off on me when he found out that I don't carry one.

NOT the sort of thing you'd usually think about when backpacking, unless you're going during hunting season laugh and even then the incidence would be really low. A blaze orange hat might be the better, more weight and pain conscious, choice.

Steadman



Edited by Steadman (01/08/10 01:27 PM)

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#126524 - 01/08/10 04:13 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Steadman]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Be sure to maintain your first aid kit:

First, go through it after each trip and replace what you used. (Of course, if you didn't use anything, no need for this.)

Second, go through it once a year and replace the medications. It's best if the labels for the medications (I use computer-printed slips that I put inside tiny ziplock bags with the pills) have the expiration date on them. I do this each winter and replace anything that will expire in the next year.

Third, examine the bandages, especially those in sterile paper wrappers, which with time and squashing into the pack tend to get ratty and therefore unsterile. If the wrappers are turning yellow with age, it's definitely time to replace the bandages!

Fourth--maybe this should be first!--reread your first aid text (assuming it's of recent vintage) and try to update your info every year. I'm lucky in having a son-in-law who is both a backpacker and an ER physician. You can get a lot of info online, but as I mentioned earlier, be absolutely sure it's of very recent date, not undated and from a reputable source. Of course be sure that you take a CPR refresher course as indicated on your CPR card. Frankly, you're far more likely to need CPR skills back near home (such as your workplace) than out in the wilderness. If someone has a heart attack out in the wilds, there's not much you can do if help can't get there within 20-30 minutes. Without a portable defibrillator (far too heavy to carry backpacking), I've been told that the chances of saving a heart attack victim with only CPR and no prompt hospital followup are less than 5%. For lightning strike and drowning, though, CPR can really make a life-and-death difference!

Finally, do not try to perform first aid on anyone else until you get training. A recent court case (here in Oregon) considered this negligence and that Good Samaritan law didn't apply. The case was where some completely untrained bystanders moved someone with a spinal injury without first stabilizing the spinal column, with the inevitable results.


Edited by OregonMouse (01/08/10 04:17 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#126525 - 01/08/10 04:28 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Steadman]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
What I was taught (back in the days when everyone was taught to use a tourniquet) even then was that you use a tourniquet only in cases where the limb is lost anyway. If you have to use a tourniquet, you've already sacrificed the limb. In other words, it's used only to keep someone from bleeding to death when everything else has been tried and it's a case of it being better to lose the limb than the life.

The reason tourniquets are no longer recommended for civilian first aid use is that far too many people were losing limbs unnecessarily due unnecessary use of tourniquets. For the military, or any other case where the limb is completely mangled and there's severe arterial bleeding, it's a bit different. But once a tourniquet is applied, the limb is gone! Out in the wilderness, there is absolutely no way you are going to get the victim to a hospital in less than an hour!
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#126533 - 01/08/10 09:12 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: OregonMouse]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Virginia
OregonMouse

I'm sorry I've distracted the point of this thread. You're a moderator - can you pull my two posts and your post so that this stays on track, or PM me and tell me how to do so? I'm really more interested in the other part of this.

Steadman

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#126534 - 01/08/10 09:19 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Steadman]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
The ability to improvise is a really critical component of your first aid training, and hence your kit. I always carry a bandanna which can serve as a triangular bandage (because of this potential use I try hard not to use it to blow my nose). The stays in your pack can form the basis for a splint ( I have drilled holes in the ends of mine in preparation for this - saves weight, too).

On one very interesting encounter while on a recreational climb, we fashioned a cervical collar from a blue foam pad and tape to stabilize our victim. It worked fine.

Look at all your gear and think of how the items you are carrying can serve for victim care. Since you almost always want to treat for shock, the ability to supply heat and retain a stable body temperature means your stove and sleeping bag, tarp, etc. will often come into play.

One of the most useful things I ever did in a First Aid class was to tell the students to fetch their packs and see how we could improvise in the face of various scenarios. I learned a lot myself.

Your attitude is important as well. In most wilderness situations, you are going to be with the victim a lot longer than urban situations, a reasonably upbeat, positive demeanor helps the victim.

I have never applied a tourniquet, or seen one applied, for real, in more than 300 emergency scenes, including one amputated arm and several gunshot wounds. I queried a good friend, who had been working as a paramedic for about a year, about this. He had never used a tourniquet, either. Battlefields are a different situation - one reason I have never applied a tourniquet may be because the victim had bled out and expired by the time we arrived on scene - there is usually a lapse of at least an hour or two between the incident and the arrival of SAR personnel. Just another reason why a wilderness traveler should have training in first aid.

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#126541 - 01/08/10 10:45 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Steadman]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3983
Loc: Bend, Oregon
Steadman, Mouse
No please leave the posts, they are very informative. In the rare event that you do run into a really bad situation at least we have had a chance to read your input. My first aid training was in Boy Scouts about a millennium ago. Though we did discuss tourniquets, we also learned that pressure points are more useful and less damaging. I guess I'm lucky - I did break a leg once but it was at orienteering meet and there was doctors there, otherwise I would never have been running in the woods in the first place... eek
Other than that I never get more than a cut and since I no longer carry really sharp dangerous knives, they are rarely bad cuts. No, if someone has to be rescued its someone else, which is why I feel safer traveling alone - true.
Jim
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

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#126542 - 01/08/10 10:50 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Darwin]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods
Quote:
Where can I get info on first aid training?
.

As OM pointed out, the Red Cross does offer basic first aid classes.

You might also go to a BSA Scout shop and pick up the first aid merit badge booklet. It has very good information.

You can also check with your local BSA council and see if any troops offer 1st Aid training and Wilderness First Aid training.
In the Dallas area, Troop 1000 out of Grand Prairie offered the WFA class 1-2 times a year. They do this as one of their service commitments to the community and to the Scouting community. It was taught by professionally trained first responders.

If there is an REI store close to you, they sometimes offer a basic 1st aid class.

Tango61
_________________________
If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you can't. Either way, you're right.

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#126552 - 01/09/10 01:39 AM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: Steadman]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
First of all, I'm NOT a moderator, so I can't do anything. Besides, there's nothing wrong with what you brought up in your post! The problem is that in a wilderness situation, unlike a combat area, there's no helicopter standing by--even if one has a PLB or other signaling device, it may take a day or two for the bureaucratic wheels to grind and SAR to reach the victim. Unfortunately.

There have been cases in which idiot carrying hunting rifle at a slant downward with the safety off managed to discharge it into the leg of the idiot walking directly in front of him. That would probably be one of those "tourniquet or die" cases.


Edited by OregonMouse (01/09/10 01:42 AM)
_________________________
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#126555 - 01/09/10 06:22 AM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: OregonMouse]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Originally Posted By OregonMouse


Finally, do not try to perform first aid on anyone else until you get training. A recent court case (here in Oregon) considered this negligence and that Good Samaritan law didn't apply. The case was where some completely untrained bystanders moved someone with a spinal injury without first stabilizing the spinal column, with the inevitable results.


Do you have a link to this case (or enough info that i could find it on lexis-nexis, etc.... I am curious as to the facts and findings.

The only similar case I could find in a cursory search was a CA case, in which the higher court (over)ruled that the good samaritan law did not apply to NON-medical care. In this case, had the person been performing medical care, they would have been immune from liability, but pulling someone from a wrecked car was not medical in nature. Nor did they exercise "due care" (which the good samaritan law provides an exception). http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/S152360.PDF

Interestingly, in Baxter's dissent, he makes an analogy to backpackers... "A hiker can be sued if, far from other help, he or she causes a broken bone while lifting a fallen comrade up the face of a cliff to safety, but would be immune if, after waiting for another member of the party to effect the rescue, he or she set the broken bone incorrectly."
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#126557 - 01/09/10 10:31 AM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: DTape]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
The most important things one learns in any first aid training is to focus on the basics (ABCs) and to be cautious with moving the victim - as opposed to those who get their first aid impressions from TV, where heroic transport always comes high on the list.

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#126560 - 01/09/10 11:16 AM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: oldranger]
Tango61 Offline
member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 931
Loc: East Texas Piney Woods


And ABC's would be AIRWAY,BREATHING, CIRCULATION.
Airway - make sure it is open, learn how to clear
Breathing - if their not, check the airway and begin rescue breathing
Circulation - make sure blood is going where it is supposed and not were it isn't. Don't forget to check for internal bleeding also (some additional training may be needed here).

You can also add "D" to that for "deadly poisoning".

That includes internal (something ingested or inhaled) & external (skin contact - poison ivy family, insect stings - particulary bees & wasps, and venomous reptiles - a whole 'nother thread).

Happy learning!
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If you think you can, you can. If you think you can't, you can't. Either way, you're right.

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#126561 - 01/09/10 04:02 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: DTape]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6799
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
No, I don't, but it was on the local news here in Oregon last spring just before I took a basic first aid course as a refresher. Rather scary case, too. I never found out if it was appealed or the results of the appeal, if any.

We were told that even with the minimal amount of training we got in the four hour course, we'd be protected--another good reason for everyone to take a course, even a short one, and keep up the certification.


Edited by OregonMouse (01/09/10 04:07 PM)
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May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

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#126565 - 01/09/10 07:17 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: OregonMouse]
DTape Offline
member

Registered: 11/23/07
Posts: 666
Loc: Upstate NY
Each state has their own laws, and it is interesting how different the good samaritan laws are, and how they are applied/interpreted. In some states, having training increases ones potential liability since there is a greater expectation of due diligence, the "they should know better" idea.

Anyway, if you are ever at another workshop and they bring it up, I'd love to be able to read the court decision. They fascinate me; especially the dissents.
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#126640 - 01/10/10 10:05 PM Re: input needed abut first aid kit [Re: DTape]
Steadman Offline
member

Registered: 09/17/09
Posts: 514
Loc: Virginia
1) Tango61

You’re probably past (have newer and better than) my practical experience, and you raise a GREAT goodjob point about poisons and toxins, but my last (10 year old training) had:

D = deformities (broken bones, etc)
E = extrication

I don't think it really makes a difference - just a way to organize information and prioritize injuries.

2) OregonMouse/JimShaw – thank you thanks – I wasn’t sure if I’d just skirted the boundaries of what is acceptable here.

I don’t know how military practice is going to transition over to the civilian world. Most of what I am hearing about tourniquets is self or buddy aid, immediate action type stuff – where the victim will bleed out if the bleeding is not stopped in the next minutes. I, too, was taught to go for pressure points, and back that up with a tourniquet only if I can’t control the bleeding. But even my conversations with my paramedic peers a decade or more ago sometimes involved quotes like “well, I can pump him full of fluid, but if he doesn’t have enough red blood cells to move oxygen around it won’t matter what the volume is in his circulatory system…”. I agree with OregonMouse that the most likely case for tourniquet use in a backpacking setting is a hunting “accident”. sick wink

However, I don’t think that anyone should walk away from this conversation thinking that a gun shot wound to the extremity means the right response is a tourniquet. The Army is still trying to figure out what constitutes a good tourniquet (some work better than others – the improvised kind that you and I might come up with probably won’t work really well, based on what I’m reading).

3) Darwin, if I were you I’d go pick up a 14 day kit at REI, Campmor, or some other dealer and take a class. That is a great place to start. smile

Steadman

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