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#124067 - 11/19/09 03:08 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: skunkcreationz]
lori Offline
member

Registered: 01/22/08
Posts: 2801
You're missing some of the points, or simply not seeing the implications of them...

People who take animal resistant cans or bags do so because they need to. They need to either avoid the food being taken, or avoid the fines incurred in areas like Yosemite as well as avoiding stolen food.

Unless your product is SIBBG approved, it won't be used by the folks who need it the most, ie, hikers going into the regions frequented by habituated Sierra bears. To be SIBBG approved it faces bears stress testing it in zoos, which is how the Ursak is not on the SIBBG list. If the Ursak can't pass, what are you going to do differently? There's an electronic bear bag on the market too - they aren't on the SIBBG list either, probably because bears rip into it anyway.

Bears and their raccoon cousins are plenty smart enough that it doesn't matter if the bag is odor proof. They know what's in the bag.

In areas where the critters aren't habituated, I hang food bags. In areas where they are, I take the bear canister. I am like most of my fellow hikers in the regions I frequent. I don't need or want anything different because a simple odor proof bag is not going to cut it in areas where the bear canister is necessary, and it's extra weight in the areas where the canister is not necessary.

Unless you can come up with some selling point that makes it useful for some other reason, I already have food bags that claim to be odor proof. Are yours significantly different from what's already on the market? I know you think so, but it doesn't sound to me that you're understanding the problem of bears and their sense of smell, which you seem to underestimate greatly.
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#124114 - 11/20/09 11:41 AM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: lori]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
On the ant comment - very true. On a friends thru hike this past summer the only food she lost was in California where they slept too close to an anthill. Her food bag was full of them in the morning and they had shredded everything - eaten right through freezer bags and more. In like 6 hours. Her bag was wrecked and had nothing to eat.

As for canisters, one thing many don't realize is that they do NOT block smell. Not one bit. The animals can smell it but usually give up as they are not getting a treat fast enough. Issue being that people touch the canisters with food scented hands - that is why the companies tell users to not store the canister near or in the tent. It is also why one is cautioned to not leave it near a cliff, stream, etc where a mad bear pushes it over in frustration. Also why covering in loud neon duct tape is good so you can find it later in the bushes.

Odor bags are only as good as the person using them. You pretty much have to be wearing disposable gloves when opening and closing at home to cover the scent.

I can say this: a fat lazy house cat can smell a jerky package through an odor barrier bag if I touched the outside. That overfed rug wrecked a friends restock supply once and happily shredded the bag and the jerky inside and ate it all. A 19 lb indoor house cat did that!

Nothing and nothing is animal proof. The best they can be is 'resistant' combined with extreme care in keeping the outdoor kitchen clean.
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#124115 - 11/20/09 11:45 AM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: sarbar]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Personally though if I was testing something I'd give a sticky fingered 4 year old the bag to play with, fill up and seal - then leave outside for a pack of starving raccoons. Raccoons are vicious creatures. They have dexterity that bears do not and cunning as well.

Many hikers are slobs, no doubt about that. And that is what makes so many ideas fail - you can't work in the 'too lazy to do it right' factor. That is why bear canisters work so well. As long as the lid is on the device has that factor built in. Almost every time you hear of a failure of a Garcia it was due to the user not tightening down the lid right. And in some occasions the Bear Vault's failures are due to users shaving down the latches, to make it easier to open (which DUH makes it easier for a bear!)

So there you go: Unless you can cover the lazy factor...back to the drawing board wink
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#124116 - 11/20/09 12:04 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: sarbar]
Zalman Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Olympic Peninsula, Washington,...
Originally Posted By sarbar
On a friends thru hike this past summer the only food she lost was in California where they slept too close to an anthill. Her food bag was full of them in the morning


I knew one guy who would purposefully open his rice bag next to a log full of carpenter ants before dinner. It took the ants less than five minutes to fully infest the rice, at which point he dumped it in his pot and cooked up a high-protein dinner.
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#124130 - 11/20/09 08:07 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: Zalman]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
Originally Posted By Zalman
Originally Posted By sarbar
On a friends thru hike this past summer the only food she lost was in California where they slept too close to an anthill. Her food bag was full of them in the morning


I knew one guy who would purposefully open his rice bag next to a log full of carpenter ants before dinner. It took the ants less than five minutes to fully infest the rice, at which point he dumped it in his pot and cooked up a high-protein dinner.


Lol! One way to get a full meal sick
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#125415 - 12/17/09 11:08 AM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: skunkcreationz]
Bob Lawblah Offline
newbie

Registered: 08/03/09
Posts: 7
Loc: U S of A
I use OPSAK bags inside Outsak bags. Strong, light, and odor-proof. have had great success

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#125421 - 12/17/09 12:03 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: sarbar]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6372
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I agree that a lot of folk don't read directions. That's been the source of nearly all the Ursack failures (other than the few that Ursack claims the park rangers won't tell them about).

It is also quite true that bears are smart, learn fast and pass their knowledge to their young. While growing up in Wyoming, I was able to observe a whole sequence of the latest in "bear-proof" garbage containers during annual visits to Yellowstone. It seemed that within a year or two of the Park Service's installing the latest and greatest "bear-proof" containers, the bears were inside them! As far as I know, the "war" is still going on.
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#125442 - 12/17/09 02:02 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: OregonMouse]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
The idea is to create smarter bears that can be hired on the Park staff. Hopefully they will work for peanuts....

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#125455 - 12/17/09 07:52 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: lori]
OregonMouse Online   content
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6372
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
Actually, the Ursack did pass the zoo tests. They even show a live test on their website. That's why they received conditional approval from SIBBG several times. Per SIBBG, the Ursack had too many failures in the field. Most of those were user error, but both SIBBG and IGBC feel that if a product requires any intelligence on the part of the user, it won't work. It is true that Sierra bears are habituated to think that anything in a bag is a pinata and will keep working at it until it gives way.

Supposedly both agencies have stopped testing bear-resistant containers, but the new outfit that was supposed to do the testing isn't. This per an ongoing thread on BPL. The tests that both agencies were using was to smear food on the outside of the container and let a captive bear go at it. This means it's highly unlikely that the OP will receive approval--either nobody will test it or it won't be approved if the standard preliminary tests are used.

Oldranger, LOL!!! laugh


Edited by OregonMouse (12/17/09 07:53 PM)
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#125489 - 12/18/09 09:32 AM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: oldranger]
ringtail Offline
member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 2296
Loc: Colorado Rockies
Originally Posted By oldranger
The idea is to create smarter bears that can be hired on the Park staff. Hopefully they will work for peanuts....


That is funny. Thank you for making my day a little better. thanks
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#125508 - 12/18/09 04:52 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: oldranger]
Glenn Offline
member

Registered: 03/08/06
Posts: 2617
Loc: Ohio
"Hopefully they will work for peanuts..."

Or pick-a-nick baskets, since they would be smaaarter than the average bear. grin

(If you're too young to get the reference, ask your parents to explain it. Or maybe your grandparents.)

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#125514 - 12/18/09 07:56 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: Bob Lawblah]
sabre11004 Offline
member

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 513
Loc: Tennessee
I am not for sure and it may just be me, but I find it difficult to believe that a bear can "rip" the hide off a tree but can not get into a bear "sack" !!!!! For some strange reason, I just find that very hard to believe. I would almost say the same thing for the bear canisters but I can see that it would be hard for a bear to get any type of grip on a bear canister. I think if given enough time with knowledge that there was food in the container, I would bet on the bear every time. I have seen what even a small bear is capable of doing so I am not totally sold on the bear container/bag thing....sabre11004... mad mad mad mad mad
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#125601 - 12/20/09 07:05 PM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: Glenn]
finallyME Offline
member

Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 2710
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By Glenn
"Hopefully they will work for peanuts..."

Or pick-a-nick baskets, since they would be smaaarter than the average bear. grin

(If you're too young to get the reference, ask your parents to explain it. Or maybe your grandparents.)


Luckily I am barely old enough to be raised on Hannah Barbara.
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#125619 - 12/21/09 08:31 AM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: sabre11004]
Zalman Offline
member

Registered: 10/25/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Olympic Peninsula, Washington,...
Originally Posted By sabre11004
I find it difficult to believe that a bear can "rip" the hide off a tree but can not get into a bear "sack" !!!!! For some strange reason, I just find that very hard to believe. I would almost say the same thing for the bear canisters but I can see that it would be hard for a bear to get any type of grip on a bear canister. I think if given enough time with knowledge that there was food in the container, I would bet on the bear every time.


I might bet the same way. Still, my carbon-steel fiber bear canister is a lot tougher than "tree hide".
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It's easy to be a holy man on top of a mountain.
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#125628 - 12/21/09 11:15 AM Re: Animal resistant bags [Re: sabre11004]
sarbar Offline
member

Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 1453
Loc: WA
For a bear to get fed it has everything to do with leverage. Bears have bad eyesight and go by smell. If they can get the right leverage with teeth/claws they can get into nearly anything.

Hence why bear bagging must be hung out of reach. An Ursack works against leverage by being tied off low - the fabric being resistant to tearing (where nylon will shred instantly).

A canister works due to being wide.
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