Backcountry Forum
Backpacking & Hiking Gear

Backcountry Forum
Our long-time Sponsor - the leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear
 
 
 
BCG Holiday Sale

Amazon.com
Backpacking Forums
BackcountryGear.com
backcountry gear

---- Our Gear Store ----
The Lightweight Gear Store
 
 WINTER CAMPING 

Shelters
Bivy Bags
Sleeping Bags
Sleeping Pads
Snow Sports
Winter Kitchen

 SNOWSPORTS 

Snowshoes
Avalanche Gear
Skins
Hats, Gloves, & Gaiters
Accessories

 ULTRA-LIGHT 

Ultralight Backpacks
Ultralight Bivy Sacks
Ultralight Shelters
Ultralight Tarps
Ultralight Tents
Ultralight Raingear
Ultralight Stoves & Cookware
Ultralight Down Sleeping Bags
Ultralight Synthetic Sleep Bags
Ultralight Apparel


the Titanium Page
WM Extremelite Sleeping Bags

 CAMPING & HIKING 

Backpacks
Tents
Sleeping Bags
Hydration
Kitchen
Accessories

 CLIMBING 

Ropes & Cordage
Protection & Hardware
Carabiners & Quickdraws
Climbing Packs & Bags
Big Wall
Rescue & Industrial

 MEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 WOMEN'S APPAREL 

Jackets
Shirts
Baselayer
Headwear
Gloves
Accessories

 FOOTWEAR 

Men's Footwear
Women's Footwear

 CLEARANCE 

Backpacks
Mens Apparel
Womens Apparel
Climbing
Footwear
Accessories

 BRANDS 

Black Diamond
Granite Gear
La Sportiva
Osprey
Smartwool

 WAYS TO SHOP 

Sale
Clearance
Top Brands
All Brands

 Backpacking Equipment 

Shelters
BackPacks
Sleeping Bags
Water Treatment
Kitchen
Hydration
Climbing


 Backcountry Gear Clearance


Stay Healthy--Eat Well

MARY JANES FARM ORGANIC MEALS

Mary Janes Farm Organic Backcountry Meals

NATURAL HIGH GOURMET MEALS

Natural High

 

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#124737 - 12/05/09 11:38 AM Horses
balzaccom Offline
member

Registered: 04/06/09
Posts: 1731
Loc: Napa, CA
Hey--I thought I'd troll for another argument here...this from a recent post to my website. Thoughts?

Horses

Yes, we know that there is a long tradition (and booming business) in horse packing trips into the Sierra. And there are many very reputable packers who make a serious effort to keep their impacts on the wilderness at a minimum. We've camped near some of these groups, and never gave it (of them) a second thought.

And there are also people who would never be able to get into the backcountry if they didn't do it on horseback. We welcome anyone in that category, because we think the wilderness needs all the friends it can get.

But if you are considering a horse packing trip, here are a few things that we would like you to keep in mind.

1. The fact that you were able to pack in beer and steaks does not give you the right to entertain the rest of the valley with rebel yells in the evening. Yippee Yo Kiy-yay may be appropriate on a cattle drive, not a wilderness trip.

2. The fact that your packer left you alone in the wilderness does not mean that you don't have to follow the rules. It does not mean you don't have to know what the rules are. It does not mean that you can break the rules as long as you cover up the evidence before your packer returns.

3. Finally, we've done a few simple calculations on how much a horse impacts a trail vs. a hiker on foot. If you take the overall weight of each, and then divide by the area of the footprint of each animal, it's pretty clear that a horse does more damage to the trail than many, many hikes. (A 200 pound hiker puts about 6 pounds per square inch of pressure on the trail, cushioned by socks and vibram. A 1000 pound horse puts closer to 100 pounds of pressure on the trail, with a steel shoe. Another way to look at this is that one horse is equivalent to 15 hikers. And a pack train with eight horses does more damage to the trail than 1000 hikers.)

This is partcularly obvious in a couple of very difficult trail situations. One is when a trail traverses a meadow--the horses really do pound that trail into a deep rut very quickly. Sure, hikers will also do that, but read the facts above. And when the trail is wet or muddy, it's even more. And the other situation is when the trail crosses a moraine or other rocky section, and the horses kick cobble after cobble into the trail. These are murder on hikers. and can twist an ankle in a second.

We don't really have a solution to this problem. But we can't help thinking that the fees that these packers pay don't come close to repairing the damage the horses do to the trail.


_________________________
balzaccom

check out our website and blog: http://www.backpackthesierra.com/home

Top
#124739 - 12/05/09 11:58 AM Re: Horses [Re: balzaccom]
Fiddleback Offline
member

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 478
Loc: Northern Rockies
We own horses...and we live in an area where pack trips abound. But I would feel uncomfortable riding or taking a string into the back country. There's just too much damage to the environment and to others' outdoor experience, IMO.

And sometimes I wonder if there's truely a difference between riders and hikers. The most garbage strewn trail I've seen was a trail for packers/riders. And the two biggest instances of litter I've come across in the wilderness were from horse people; one in Virginia, one here in Montana. Like hunters, there are some incredible, extreme slobs in the horse set and their impact on the image of the remaining majority (and the environment) is far overweighed.

FB
_________________________
"...inalienable rights...include the right to a clean and healthful environment..." Montana Constitution

Top
#124745 - 12/05/09 12:55 PM Re: Horses [Re: balzaccom]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2802
Loc: NorCal
You're preaching to the choir here. There are Sierra wildernesses where literally every trail leading in has been rendered a horse superhighway--yards wide in places and a sea of foot-deep dust and cobbles, not to mention the smell and the flies. And for what? So a small percentage of backcountry users get "easy" access and the comforts of a car campsite, without the pesky cars.

Grrr.

If anything I think you understate the impact of a typical trip. Here what I've observed: 1. Packer brings in clients, gear and supplies (let's give it a 5:1 ratio of head:client). 2. Packer sets up camp and returns to the pack station with the whole string. 3. Packer returns to the camp with string to pick up clients and gear. 4. Packer returns with clients to pack station.

That makes two round trips for every party, with is probably more wear and tear than committed by all backpackers the entire season.

Maybe it's a "legitimate" commercial use of the backcountry, maybe not. Maybe they do some trail maintenance, but it's not nearly enough to counter the damage done. And yes, I've had to pass up some real pigsty campsites made that way by packed-in clients.

Not all backpackers are backcountry angels but they'd have a hard time matching the things I've seen from packer groups.

/rant.

p.s. I know some endurance riders and they're a completely different group. They do tread lightly and respeoct the surroundings. (They also collect some gruesome injuries.)

_________________________
--Rick

Top
#124752 - 12/05/09 03:06 PM Re: Horses [Re: balzaccom]
dla Offline
member

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
I don't mind horses. What I hate are the asinine restrictions against game carts and Mt.Bikes. The stupid people supporting those restrictions have obviously no experience on "wilderness" trails shared with pack animals.

Top
#124755 - 12/05/09 03:30 PM Re: Horses [Re: balzaccom]
Jimshaw Offline
member

Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 3938
Loc: Bend, Oregon
I live in Horse country. You're almost required to carry a gun and ride a horse here or they might tar and feather you eek, but the horse people here live here and that's the difference. smile They don't make a mess of their own back yards, and they are major contributors to trail building, :)and this is volcano country so the ground is pretty porous and water stays in the streams ans trails are pretty hard underneath. I 4wd and the hikers, horses, and 4wders share the some trails to a certain extent. The forest service does have horse trails, bike trails, ski trails, snowmobile trails and dog trails. Horses and dogs don't mix well nor do dogs and skiers and snowmobiles, its a safety thing to a large extent. goodjob

However it seems that horse people going into the Sierras see it a chance to take a gas lantern that lights up an entire valley and since they have gallon jugs of everything, they seem to think that they should leave the half empties behind, I guess for the poor backpackers to use. Only packers can trash an area that badly because a backpacker couldn't carry in (or out) that much stuff.

When I spent a week below Supai in the Grand Canyon - come Sunday the horse packers left and they didn't want the horses to have carry all that stuff up the trail so they would leave it all in nice neat piles in the campground. You just went down and grabbed few ammo cans of food for the next week and buried it up in the rocks. thanks
Jim crazy
_________________________
These are my own opinions based on wisdom earned through many wrong decisions. Your mileage may vary.

Top
#124758 - 12/05/09 03:54 PM Re: Horses [Re: dla]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By dla
I don't mind horses. What I hate are the asinine restrictions against game carts and Mt.Bikes. The stupid people supporting those restrictions have obviously no experience on "wilderness" trails shared with pack animals.


I can't disagree there. In most places up here outside of the national parks, if horses are allowed, bikes are as well. And I do not see bikers doing anything like as much damage as horses.

Unfortunately in the national parks, bikes are much more restricted than horses - mostly due to tradition. Now the flip side is that the rangers sit on the horse campers a *LOT* - I have never found they "typical" horse packer pigsty left in a national park up here - I have in the provincial wilderness areas here.

Of course, another side of that is that in 15 years of carrying bear spray, I've never used it, and only had it out of the holster once in anger - and that was for a mountain biker with a serious attitude problem. I've had more issues about "operator attitude" and sharing the trail from mountain bikers than horse riders.



Edited by phat (12/05/09 04:00 PM)
_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#124759 - 12/05/09 04:37 PM Re: Horses [Re: dla]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1736
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
I had an out-of-control, low-flying pinhead on a mountain bike run into me on a mutual use trail. He was "catching air" over a rise and I never had a chance to get out of the way. I wound up with a couple of broken ribs and multiple contusions. His reaction, after getting back on his bike and starting to ride off, was "you need to watch where you're going". I would have pounded the little twerp to a pulp if I hadn't been hurting so much. The experience is one major reason that I favor separating hikers and mountain bikers on trails.

I guess I'm one of your "stupid people" in that I support reasonable restrictions on both horses and mountain bikes for safety and to reduce erosion. I don't much care about game carts. And, I have had over 60 years of experience on wilderness and "wilderness" trails shared with pack animals so your "obviously no experience" judgment is poppycock.

A lot of us "stupid people" don't really care that much whether a few people are opposed to "asinine" restrictions on wheeled equipment on wilderness trails. Especially when "asinine" to you means reasonable to us. And even more especially I don't care every time I remember the guy-of-little-brain who ran into me.

It took two months for the ribs to heal.

Incidentally, you don't win too many people over to your views when you call them stupid.

_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

Top
#124760 - 12/05/09 04:42 PM Re: Horses [Re: phat]
OregonMouse Offline
member

Registered: 02/03/06
Posts: 6401
Loc: Gateway to Columbia Gorge
I'd just like to mention that a lot of backcountry trails in the Pacific Northwest would never receive any maintenance if it weren't for the volunteer efforts of the Backcountry Horsemen. For one thing, they can pack the necessary tools a lot more easily than can folks on foot. This doesn't matter for close to the trailhead, but just try to find a group of volunteer hikers willing to pack the tools (plus their gear and food) 15-20 miles from the trailhead! The Forest Service certainly doesn't have any money for such activities!

I would like to see some restriction on horse parties in the early part of the summer when everything is still soggy from snowmelt and horse hooves can turn trails into quagmires!


Edited by OregonMouse (12/05/09 04:43 PM)
_________________________
May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view--E. Abbey

Top
#124764 - 12/05/09 06:45 PM Re: Horses [Re: dla]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
Would you care to explain more fully the "asinine restrictions'? It's basically no wheels in a wilderness area. Perhaps it is arbitrary, but you have to draw a line somewhere. I ride a bike a lot, and there are lots of places to for me to ride that I haven't tried yet, outside wilderness. As for game carts, real men pack out their kills.

Top
#124770 - 12/05/09 08:15 PM Re: Horses [Re: oldranger]
dla Offline
member

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
Tell us about the last time you packed an Elk out on your back. If you haven't done that, then I don't think you have the prerequisite experience to comment on game carts.

Top
#124772 - 12/05/09 08:24 PM Re: Horses [Re: Pika]
dla Offline
member

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
You said it yourself - thanks. Sorry you are so thin-skinned.

You share in the responsibility for not getting run over - you failed your part.

If you believe bikes are a significant source of erosion, then you clearly haven't been on a trail used by pack animals. And yours in the classical "bikes are bad because somebody else said so". And of course you wouldn't know what a game cart is even if it ran over your foot.

The US Forest Service wrote rules that have turned many wildernesses into the exclusive playgrounds of outfitters. Like I said, I don't mind horsies (I like mules better), but I think that banning a hunter's game cart is stupid^3.



Top
#124773 - 12/05/09 08:27 PM Re: Horses [Re: dla]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada

The problem with *both* bikes and horses (and hikers) is simple:

1) Overuse wrecks things - and requires people to rehabilitate or mitigate:
- muddy horse poopy trails
- massive trail braids in wet areas from hikers
- deep ruts and shredage from bikers

I have seen *all* of the above in my usual haunts.

2) Jerks, Slobs, and Buttheads ruin it for everyone.

While yes, I've had a bad experience with a biker, I'm sorry there's no shortage of boneheaded hikers either. All the above can be morons on the trail, leave garbage around, etc.

Personally, while I won't go as far as allowing motorized vehicles, I don't have a big issue with wheels, as long as rules are there and respected to keep everyone safe. in that respect I'd rather be inclusive on trails rather than exclusive. I'm betting we'd have more responsible bikers if they were exposed to having to share the world more too.


_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#124774 - 12/05/09 08:39 PM Re: Horses [Re: dla]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By dla

The US Forest Service wrote rules that have turned many wildernesses into the exclusive playgrounds of outfitters. Like I said, I don't mind horsies (I like mules better), but I think that banning a hunter's game cart is stupid^3.


Fortunately, most of our areas up here are just "no motorized vehicles". Only the national parks (with no hunting at all) tend to be very cycle-discriminatory but horse permissive.


_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#124778 - 12/05/09 09:53 PM Re: Horses [Re: dla]
Pika Online   content
member

Registered: 12/08/05
Posts: 1736
Loc: Rural Southeast Arizona
My goodness, you certainly don't handle disagreement very well, do you? I didn't intend to get you into a swivet; I wonder what your reaction would have been if I had tried.

Your response to my post can best be described as uninformed. Unfortunately, it offers nothing more than strongly stated opinion and constitutes an excellent demonstration of the old adage "often in error but never in doubt".

Read your reply and I think you will have to agree. In your reply, you state opinion that is false to fact and that is unsupported by any evidence whatsoever: unless you consider your opinion to be evidence. I don't. For example, you know nothing about me yet you make four incorrect assumptions regarding my views.

First, you presume to know what happened when I was hit by the cyclist. I don't recall your having been there yet you feel free to judge and claim that I failed in my responsibility. When one person is traveling perhaps 2 mph, the other about 15 mph, coming from behind, and out of sight behind a rise in the trail until the last few seconds, your statement
Quote:
You share in the responsibility for not getting run over - you failed your part.

borders on the ridiculous at best and, to me, proves again that ignorance is seldom a barrier to opinion.

Second, you claim that I
Quote:
clearly haven't been on a trail used by pack animals

Here, again, you have no knowledge. In fact I have. A lot. I was a professional forester and forestry scientist before I retired and am quite familiar with the management and use of pack animals and also with what they do to trails. I am also more aware than the average person of the damage that mountain bikes can do to trails; repairing trails used by mountain bikes, horses and hikers was one of my responsibilities as a forester.

Third, you claim that I think
Quote:
"bikes are bad because somebody else said so"

As already stated, I had extensive experience in maintaining trails when I worked for the U.S. Forest Service. I know that mountain bikes cause erosion because I have seen the result on numerous occasions. I don't think bikes are bad but I do think they should be largely confined to trails not used by hikers.

And, your statement

Quote:
And of course you wouldn't know what a game cart is even if it ran over your foot.

is just absurd. You have no basis for saying that other than immature pique.

Finally, you claim
Quote:
The US Forest Service wrote rules that have turned many wildernesses into the exclusive playgrounds of outfitters.

I am reasonably familiar with the rules under which the U.S. Forest Service operates and am not aware of any of them that have "turned many wildernesses into the exclusive playgrounds of outfitters". Perhaps you are more familiar with the rules than am I. If that is the case, please help me to understand by naming some of the "many wildernesses" to which you were referring and the specific rules that turned them into "the exclusive playgrounds of outfitters". Since you make this claim, I am sure you have the information and should easily be prepared to share it with me. If you can't, I guess I'll just have to assume this is another area where ignorance is not a barrier to opinion.
_________________________
May I walk in beauty.

Top
#124783 - 12/05/09 10:32 PM Re: Horses [Re: balzaccom]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2752
Loc: California
There are good horsemen and bad horsmen. There are places suitable for horses and others not. I have used horsepackers for re-suppy and also to haul me in from where I walked out. Also used horse packers to help out when my kids were at that awkward age - too big to carry and too little to walk much distance. Each wilderness area must be considered individually. I do not think you can make a blanket statement.

As for bikes - it is not wheels or no wheels - for me it is speed. Even good bikers speeding down a hill on a blind corner can easily hit a hiker. Bikes are OK where the trails are wide enough and visibility is good.

I have carried an elk out on a pack frame. Was 3 months pregnant too - walked a bit, puked a bit, eventually ex-hub and I got two elk out 8 miles. My pack weighed about 100 pounds, his close to 150. My pack frame got cracked. Getting the elk out was not an option - it was our entire winter meat supply. We lived on less than $3,000 a year. A cart would not work because it was a very rough trail and some off-trail. I can sympathize - if there is a nice wide trail, I see no problem with a cart. You will be going way to slow to run anyone over!

Top
#124789 - 12/06/09 12:47 AM Re: Horses [Re: Pika]
dla Offline
member

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
The USFS has made it Foot or Animal. A horse can cover 3x the ground in a day that a hiker can. So if people want to make a 15 mile loop over a pass and by some alpine lakes, an outfitter can take them on a horsey ride. Costs around $200. For hunters, the outfitters will setup a drop camp, dump you off and haul out your game for about $1200/person. You can be 10+ miles in this way. Since few people own pack animals, suddenly the easy access to wilderness is via the outfitter. As I said, the USFS has made Wilderness the playground of the outfitters.

And you think bikes cause erosion..



Top
#124791 - 12/06/09 12:55 AM Re: Horses [Re: wandering_daisy]
dla Offline
member

Registered: 09/06/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon, USA
Whoa - you are tough! Just thinking of bringing an Elk out 8 miles makes my knees hurt. It takes me 3 trips to bring out a 500lb Elk solo, 4 trips for a big one. That's quarters, straps, trims, & antlers. I'd still be looking at two trips if I boned it out. It would take me two days minimum, with it boned out, to get an Elk out from 8 miles in.

If pack animals are using the trail, then it is good enough for a game cart. A game cart is one trip and no grunting under 100+lb packs. It is still work, but it is much nicer.

Top
#124795 - 12/06/09 03:02 AM Re: Horses [Re: wandering_daisy]
phat Offline
Moderator

Registered: 06/24/07
Posts: 4107
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By wandering_daisy

I have carried an elk out on a pack frame. Was 3 months pregnant too - walked a bit, puked a bit, eventually ex-hub and I got two elk out 8 miles. My pack weighed about 100 pounds, his close to 150.


Owch! you're one tough cookie WD.. I don't think I've ever packed a moose that far. Worst was about 4 miles through heavy terrain... and I definately wasn't pregnant!

_________________________
Any fool can be uncomfortable...
My 3 season gear list
Winter list.
Browse my pictures


Top
#124797 - 12/06/09 09:21 AM Re: Horses [Re: dla]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
My experience has been with mammoths (fossil)rather than elk. The heaviest was 95 pounds (actual weight on a scale), no trail, uphill, back to the truck, about one mile. I left very deep footprints.

Where permissible, I have used a two wheel game cart (an eight foot long tusk is a very awkward backpack). In my experience, they don't fit on a trail tread very well and continual use would tend to mess up the tread. A one wheel stretcher carrier fits the trail tread better, but the accompanying stretcher bearers will beat down the trail as they scramble around. I've done quite a few miles with those.

I did once carry a 165 lb victim on my back for about a quarter mile uphill (I was younger and full of adrenaline). It wasn't as hard as I thought it would be, probably because my load could center his weight on my body by draping his head and arms over my shoulders. You can't get that kind of cooperation from fossil mammoths or dead elk.

Top
#124798 - 12/06/09 09:23 AM Re: Horses [Re: wandering_daisy]
oldranger Offline
member

Registered: 02/23/07
Posts: 1735
Loc: California (southern)
WD, I amend my sexist comment to read "real men and pregnant women....."

Top
#124813 - 12/06/09 02:06 PM Re: Horses [Re: balzaccom]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3890
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Wow, this is quite the thread. I'd say your trolling paid off wink

And ya'll know I have to chime in...

There are a lot of reasons for why I spend most my time in the forests off and away from trails that are discussed in this thread.

I don't want to see restrictions on horses, bikes, game carts, or hikers unless there is reasonable cause and for me that's a high bar to leap.

Pika's getting blasted by a biker was not his fault. Not in any sense. The biker was a jerk and should have paid dearly for his negligence.

But that doesn't mean I'd support a ban on bikes on that trail. Probably wouldn't, no more than I would a ban on cars on streets.

And I don't mind people getting out in the forests and "Yippee Yo Kiy-yaying" into the wee hours. People need a place to blow off steam. The forest is a perfect spot for that. They can howl with the coyotes all night as far as I'm concerned.

As far as erosion goes, trails cause erosion. A trail will erode after it is constructed even if it is never used. The number one cause of trail erosion is that someone built a trail. Why is that so often ignored?

I've mountain biked a lot off-trail too (before it was banned). There is almost zero impact when you're hiking or biking off trail. Measurable impact occurs with repeated use. That's what trails are made for.

So, personally, I think whining about eroded trails is pretty wimpy. If you don't like it, help fix it, or don't use it.

Even if you've worked hard to build a trail it seems pretty silly to me to complain that when it's used it is being damaged. Of course it is. It's being damaged when it's not too.

And, I agree that many NF and other public lands have been restricted in many cases to the point of making them somewhat exclusive.

Here in the Ozarks I've watched the NFS close over a hundred miles of old roads in just recent years. The areas where these roads are closed are now only accessible by hikers in many cases.

Since you really can't hike here in the warm months, this means these areas are inaccessible then. In cooler months the days are so short you cannot go very far without packing in. This again means large areas are mostly completely inaccessible.

I used to drive these old dirt roads and day hike around. There are places I, or anyone but NFS employees, will never see again unless this changes. That it the true end result.

One might argue that on the plus side, there is almost no human caused erosion anywhere on those public lands. And this is the argument the NFS uses to restrict access.

But take a wider look. Compare the total square yards of impacted area to the entire area and you find the impacted area is restricted to a very small percent of the total area.

There is also an impact on people when restrictions are implemented on public land. This again is often ignored in the decision making process.

Personally, I would be worthless without access to large areas of public land. Potentially Insane. Possibly dangerous crazy

That is why people need a place to let off steam. I don't get drunk and hoot and holler at the moon when I'm out. But I understand why some do. It's a human thing. I've seen it everywhere I've ever been.

_________________________
--

"You want to go where?"



Top
#124817 - 12/06/09 04:08 PM Re: Horses [Re: dla]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2752
Loc: California
Since I believe we are past the staute of limitations I will admit to illegally butchering the elk in the field and only bringing out the meat. It was the only practical thing to do.

Top
#124818 - 12/06/09 04:30 PM Re: Horses [Re: phat]
wandering_daisy Offline
member

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 2752
Loc: California
Phat
to put this in context - I was young (mid-20s) and had just finished a season at NOLS where we regularly carried 70 pound packs. There is no way I could get close to doing that now! If you go slow enough you can just about carry anything. My elk was a calf - we had cow-calf permits. We were meat hunters - only the tender young ones. That hike out was the most agonizing hike of my life! Once was enough!

I love the new light-backpacking. Funny how easily I forget that in past 60+ pounds was not considered unreasonable for a long backpack or mountaineering trip. Add to that the old climbing gear - pitons, a 16-oz hammer, 11-mm ropes, 2 pound crampons, old iron caribiners! Back then, my summer base weight was 45 pounds! Throw on 30 pounds of food and gas and every start was agonizing. We did not know any better back then. Just figured this was how it was.



Top
#124830 - 12/06/09 06:55 PM Re: Horses [Re: oldranger]
billstephenson Offline
Moderator

Registered: 02/07/07
Posts: 3890
Loc: Ozark Mountains in SW Missouri
Originally Posted By oldranger
WD, I amend my sexist comment to read "real men and pregnant women....."


Yeah, my hats off to both of you. WD, you would have been a great Ozarker. You, like a lot of the women I've met here, are way tougher than me. My son-in-law too. He was complaining a few weeks ago about carrying a small doe up from the bottom of the hollow below our house.

And I'm not sure what I'd have thought if I ran across someone hauling a 8ft. long mammoth tusk on a hiking trail. One thing is for sure, I wouldn't want to make them mad...

"What are you doing with that?"

"Making soup, got any more questions?"

"No."



Top
#124831 - 12/06/09 07:06 PM Re: Horses [Re: Rick_D]
Rick_D Offline
member

Registered: 01/06/02
Posts: 2802
Loc: NorCal
Rant addendum:

Time to knock back the western high country grazing permits too! It took the US Calvary to get sheep herds out of Yosemite but the BLM still charges 19th century fees to allow grazing in the high Sierra today. It's nuts.
_________________________
--Rick

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Glenn Roberts 
Shout Box

Highest Quality Lightweight Down Sleeping Bags
 
Western Mountaineering Sleeping Bags
 
Lite Gear Talk - Featured Topics
Butane Stove
by Jim M
12/15/17 08:05 PM
Knife, Fire Starter, Ignition Source
by Jim M
12/11/17 07:34 PM
Bivvy bag with wired peak
by Petro1234
12/10/17 01:06 PM
Backcountry Discussion - Featured Topics
Greetings - and a question
by valongi
12/11/17 11:35 AM
Just found out about UCO candles
by toddfw2003
11/30/17 08:41 AM
Hitting the eagle rock loop, Ark in 3 days
by toddfw2003
11/19/17 11:31 AM
Make Your Own Gear - Featured Topics
Plant based insulation...
by billstephenson
11/18/17 02:58 PM
lightest grommets to use
by toddfw2003
10/22/17 06:13 PM
avalibility of thin ti rod
by the-gr8t-waldo
01/26/17 04:45 PM
Featured Photos
Breakneck Ridge, New York
May 2012 Eclipse, Lassen Park
New Years Eve 2011
Trip Report with Photos
Seven Devils, Idaho
Oat Hill Mine Trail 2012
Dark Canyon - Utah
Who's Online
1 registered (), 17 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
runningman55, ponchoman, valongi, Atkinson J, Dcarpenter
12471 Registered Users
Forum Links
Disclaimer
Policies
Site Links
HOME
Backpacking.net
Family Hiking
Lightweight Gear Store
Backpacking Book Store
Lightweight Zone
Hiking Essentials

Outdoor Gear Daily Deals
Outlets, Sales, Bargains

Our long-time Sponsor, BackcountryGear.com - The leading source for ultralite/lightweight outdoor gear:

Backcountry Forum
 
 

Since 1996 - the Original Backcountry Forum
Copyright © The Lightweight Backpacker & BackcountryForum.com